Im currently making a new fighter, back when I played second edition it always seemed that the Str fighter would own the dex fighter? Now with all the changes since second edition is it possible to be a damage dealing fighter with high dex and low str? Please explain how to do this and what feats, etc you should use.
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Im currently making a new fighter, back when I played second edition it always seemed that the Str fighter would own the dex fighter? Now with all the changes since second edition is it possible to be a damage dealing fighter with high dex and low str? Please explain how to do this and what feats, etc you should use.
I could be wrong, but I don't think a dex based fighter is ever intended to out do the str based fighter. The char'op folks can disagree, but the dex based fighter is about damage avoidance. Stuff like spring attack with vital strikes to get in, do decent damage, and get out. Stuff like dodge and mobility to keep you free of damage, and other tricks like that.
In PFRPG a dex based fighter is certainly better (then 3.5) but I still don't think the purpose is raw damage.
Stuff like spring attack with vital strikes to get in, do decent damage, and get out.
I thought Jason explicitly clarified that this was not an intended combination...
Ok, I was not sure if you took weapon finesse feat or maybe used throwing weapons or ranged weapons you might be able to match a str fighter. So basically its best to make a str fighter then? Or do you feel that having a high dex fighter and using feats to reduce dmg might make you as useful?
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I think, and this is only my opinion but I know a few people who share it, that it doesn't really matter what kind of fighter you make. They all have their ups and downs. A high dex fighter can be more mobile than a strength fighter, but then not neccessarily. It really depends on how you build him and what your aims and goals are. A high dex fighter has numerous options (as does the strength builds) Look at the various dex trees, there is the Dodge Mobility Spring attack to Whirlwind route as well as The 2 weapon fighting route. That isn't counting the bow (one of my personal favorites) or the quickdraw throw at a high rate route(seen it, and it was surprisingly effective).
Personally I have seen people build several fighters with about the same points and money and come up with completely different fighters that shined. The key is to build the kind you want to play.
Im currently making a new fighter, back when I played second edition it always seemed that the Str fighter would own the dex fighter? Now with all the changes since second edition is it possible to be a damage dealing fighter with high dex and low str? Please explain how to do this and what feats, etc you should use.
It is very possible to be a damage-dealing fighter with high-Dex and low-Str in 3.x/PF. A high-Dex, low-Str fighter has several options, not necessarily exclusive of each other.
1) Concentrate on ranged attacks instead of melee. This is an archer/thrower build. Feats such as Deadly Aim, the Point Blank Shot tree, and Rapid Reload (if using a crossbow) are obviously useful. Other feats such as Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, Quick Draw, Throw Anything, and the Two-Weapon Fighting Chain can make for an interesting throwing build.
2) Concentrate on making as many attacks in melee as possible. This covers the Two-Weapon Fighting variants, for the most part. Note that "Two-Weapon Fighting" includes weapon/shield fighting with Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, and Shield Master. Combat Reflexes to increase the number of AoO is also useful; as is Stand Still, especially in conjunction with the free Bull Rush from Shield Slam for a weapon/shield variant concentrating on short-range battlefield control.
3) Concentrate on avoiding attacks while doing damage in melee. This covers both the Combat Expertise tree (Improved Disarm and Improved Trip keep your opponents from attacking you to full effect) and the Dodge tree. Note that Fleet and Nimble Moves (and Acrobatic Steps) are especially useful when paired with Spring Attack and another form of increased movement.
With any of these types of characters, the Critical Focus, Vital Strike, and Weapon Focus trees are ways of increasing the amount of damage done without (or in addition to) increasing Str. For melee attacks, Weapon Finesse can be useful for increasing your attack roll bonus. One more variation, which is less useful in most dungeons for a medium sized PC, is a character using the Mounted Combat tree; this variation is also more useful for a PC with a mount that can improve as level increases, such as a druid, ranger, or paladin.
Im currently making a new fighter, back when I played second edition it always seemed that the Str fighter would own the dex fighter? Now with all the changes since second edition is it possible to be a damage dealing fighter with high dex and low str? Please explain how to do this and what feats, etc you should use.
In the beta Armor Training made Dex based Archer Fighers way, way too good, the combination of being able to channel dex into damage (With Deadly Aim) and gaining 2 AC from each level of armor training was a bit too good, which is why (I'm guessing) armor training in the final version only lowers the armor check penalty and increases the max dex, instead of also increasing the armor bonus.
Even with that change, you can still make a wonderful heavy damage dealing archer, by balancing Strength and Dexterity instead of trying to max out either one. Deadly Aim + Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot + Many Shot + Composite Longbow can lay down a frightening level of murder.
(Also, on a side note, I'm not sure why everyone is so obsessed with Vital Strike, they've already clarified that it just doubles the weapons base damage, which is at most an extra 4-7 points of damage, on average. It's nice, but for a standard action it's not _that_ nice.)
Greater Vital Strike does x4 normal Damage
2W6 (~7) > Twohander = 8W6 (~28 SP)
With Power Attack, Str 22 and +5 Weapon =
2W6 + above Bonus. (~33) > Full Attack > ~132
8W6 + above Bonus. (~54)3 Feats to do +40% Damage with a Standard Attack.
And just dealing 1/3 of a Full Attack
Well, that's all a bit hard to parse, but I think I get what you're saying, and I agree, when all you can make is a standard attack, Vital Strike is quite nice, especially if you play to it's strengths by using a high base damage weapon. It would help a lot vs. a high AC target as well, and is probably a feat that every fighter should consider taking.
I probably worded my post earlier badly, I wasn't saying Vital strike was a bad choice, just that as a standard action it's not that nice, since it precludes taking a full attack and that I don't see how it effects the choice between a strength or a dex based fighter, since the only factor in using it is base weapon damage.
What about quickdraw, Rapid Shot, ManyShot, and two-weapon fighting tree?
That would be an effective of 9 attacks at lvl 16 (10 with haste).
With upwards numbers of str and Dex, damage would be nice with each of them. Getting 10 +5 returning, flaming, holy handaxes might be a bit more difficult :D Also grabbing all 10 at the end of the round when they return even more difficult :)
What about quickdraw, Rapid Shot, ManyShot, and two-weapon fighting tree?
That would be an effective of 9 attacks at lvl 16 (10 with haste).
With upwards numbers of str and Dex, damage would be nice with each of them. Getting 10 +5 returning, flaming, holy handaxes might be a bit more difficult :D Also grabbing all 10 at the end of the round when they return even more difficult :)
I'm afraid that may not work out as well as you're thinking. Returning is going to be problematic. Returning weapons don't return to you until your next turn, so you'll need one per attack, which is going to get very, very expensive, and they drop at your feet if you don't have a hand free to catch them, so if you made more than two thrown attacks in the previous round, you'll be unable to catch all of your weapons, and at least one will end up on the floor.
EDIT: Withdrew my argument about Quick Draw and Two Weapon Fighting, dual throwing does indeed work, according to the RAW. As a DM I'd be wary of allowing Rapid Shot/Manyshot on top of this, but according to the rules as written Rapid Shot at least should work.
Manyshot on the other hand specifically requires a bow.
With just Rapid shot + TWF, I suppose it would be possible to get 5 attacks with your primary hand (4+1 from rapid shot) and 3 attacks with your off hand, +1 for haste/speed. Blech, that seems too much, but it looks like it should work (sort of).
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Quick Draw in pathfinder has the added line "A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow)"
Doesn't that mean a lv1 fighter with Quick Draw and Two-Weapon Fighting(and most likely Wep. Finesse if human) would havea a full normal rate of attacks equal to two a round? Grab those shuriken and throw, throw, throw!
Quick Draw in pathfinder has the added line "A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow)"Doesn't that mean a lv1 fighter with Quick Draw and Two-Weapon Fighting(and most likely Wep. Finesse if human) would havea a full normal rate of attacks equal to two a round? Grab those shuriken and throw, throw, throw!
Yeah, I was focusing on the "as a character with a bow" line, but there is a line in Two Weapon Fighting in the combat section that allows for certain thrown weapons to be used this way (which is why I edited my old post).
Ah, I see. Guess I was typing while you edited the post.
No worries, I should have edited faster or double/triple checked first.
You can't charge and vital strike. Spring Attack is fine.
I'm curious what kind of logic generates that conclusion.
You can't charge and vital strike. Spring Attack is fine.I'm curious what kind of logic generates that conclusion.
I posted this on another thread, but I'll repost it here.
An Attack Action is one of the basic actions listed on the Actions in Combat table, under standard actions, and it allows you to make a single attack, either melee, ranged, or unarmed. Using the attack action and making an attack are not synonymous (despite having somewhat confusing names.) It might be easiest to think of Attack actions the same way you think of Full Attack actions, Full Attack is a full round action that allows you to make a series of attacks, in the same way the Attack action is a standard action that allows you to make a single attack.
Charge, and feats like cleave, do not say "you may make an attack action" they say "You may make a melee attack." Vital Strike on the other hand says "When you use the attack action" and thus cannot be used in combination with Charge. (Nor can it be used on every attack in a full attack, each attack from a cleave, etc.)
This is also why several of the Combat Maneuvers use the wording "You can attempt to X in place of a melee attack" so that it's clear they can be used as part of a full attack action or an attack of opportunity.
As for the part about spring attack working with Vital Strike, well, I don't quite know where people are getting that. It's pretty clear that spring attack, much like Charge, does not stack with Vital Strike.
Benefit: You can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack.
Note that as with Cleave and Charge, Spring Attack does not let you use an Attack action, it lets you make a single melee attack.