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After looking over the final PFRPG rules, identifying my issues with 3.5, and reading some very good analysis of the 3.5/PFRPG rules set (such as Trailblazer), I wanted to come up with one page of formal house rules for all of the PFRPG games I run. Here they are, with my annotations hidden behind spoiler tags. I'd appreciate any input from others about where I might be off base (or on track) with my house rules.
Characters
1. No Favored Classes. No character chooses a favored class.
2. Hit Points. Do not roll for hit points. Gain maximum hit points at 1st level, and half of maximum plus one (plus Constitution modifier) for each level thereafter.
3. Starting Gold. Do not roll for your starting gold; take the maximum amount.
4. No XP. XP is not tracked. Leveling up is performed at the DM’s discretion. Spells or effects that cost XP instead cost 5 gp per 1 XP that would be expended.
5. Feat Retraining. At every 4th level, a character may drop one feat known and replace it with another for which the character qualifies (the new attribute just gained may be used to qualify for the feat). You must still meet all of the prerequisites for every feat and prestige class you have.
Skill and Attribute Checks
1. Aid Another. When characters aid each other, the lead character is agreed upon after the dice are rolled (usually this is the character with the highest total).
2. Aid Another with Alternate Skills. The DM may permit Aid Another attempts with an alternate skill, if the player makes a reasonably good case (i.e., an Intimidate check to aid party trying to Bluff a guard). Someone rolling an alternate skill never becomes the lead character.
Movement and Combat
1. Cover. Opponents may not count your allies as cover. No creature gains cover from a creature smaller in size than it is.
2. Standing Up. Standing up from prone does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
3. Charging. Allies do not block a charge or impede movement during a charge.
4. Moving Five Feet. Any movement of five feet never provokes an attack of opportunity. That is, even if you are blinded and moving through difficult terrain (so each five feet moved costs you 20 feet of movement), you do not provoke if you have only physically moved five feet.
5. Withdraw. If you take the withdraw action, no point in your movement provokes attacks of opportunity.
6. Attacks of Opportunity. A character provokes attacks of opportunity for only three actions:
a. Movement out of a threatened area. Movement out of an opponent’s threatened area (not threatened square) provokes an attack of opportunity. You can move into or within an opponent’s threatened area without provoking an attack of opportunity. A five foot step or the withdraw action can be used to avoid this attack of opportunity.
b. Charging out of a threatened square. If you leave a threatened square when charging an opponent, the opponent may take an attack of opportunity against you.
c. Other Actions. Per the rules, some actions provoke attacks of opportunity.
Recovery
1. Resting. Resting for 20 minutes allows a character to heal all hit point damage (unless some condition, such as a cursed wound, negates healing).
In essence, a wand of cure light wounds every level or so is a “tax” on adventuring that every group has to pay in order to get healing they need. It’s also not very fun to roll for this healing outside of combat: “speed healing” out of a wand is often hand-waved anyway at 5 or 6 points per charge by many DMs anyway.
So what this rule does, at its core, is assume that the whole party would otherwise have enough wands of cure light wounds to get everyone up to full fighting strength when taking a short bit of downtime. This assumption is maybe erroneous at very low levels (1st to 3rd), but those are the levels at which characters need every one of their precious hit points to survive (and this rule gives those to them). It also may be erroneous in a low-magic-item game, but party healing in those games just makes playing the cleric less fun. If you’re willing to assume that the whole party would regularly heal up using their magic item resources after a fight, then you lose nothing by instituting this rule. If you really think it’s necessary for game balance, then cut 750 gp out of the treasure they would otherwise find once or twice each level. They’ll never know, and it’s just like they bought the wands and used them during the downtime anyway, but without the bookkeeping.
Note that this rule makes playing the party healer (cleric, paladin, etc.) more fun. It also lets people with class-based healing (like lay on hands or a monk’s healing) use it in combat instead, where it is most needed and most fun to use.
Please feel free to comment on what you like or don't like about these house rules. I've already heard from a couple of people that these rules lean toward "gamist" rather than "simulationist" games, which seems true to me.
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I honestly don't like most of the ideas you have here, however I don't think you went too far on any of them really. A nice set, even if I wouldn't like them :)
Also, on your #5. Feat Retraining: I'd suggest that you do this at 2nd and every 4th level after that. That gives feats on the odds, stat points on the "4th", and retraining on the other 4th.
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1. No Favored Classes
Not a fan. If you think it's confusing to keep track of where an extra hit point or skill point per level came from, you'll really enjoy the results of having just removed the incentive to play single-class characters.
2. Hit Points. Do not roll for hit points.
Meh. There's something fun about having some randomness to a character. After low-level the danger is usually not about hit-points anyway and an averaging effect will take place as well. Having a house-rule that you don't need just one more thing to remember that isn't in the book.
3. Starting Gold. Do not roll for your starting gold; take the maximum amount.
How about the average value?
4. No XP. XP is not tracked.
I've been on both sides of the gaming table doing this. On one hand it's convenient. On the other hand, you're removing a nightly reward that you can hand your players. You're removing excitement as they known they're approaching a level change. You can control progress by how much you hand out without abstracting the whole system.
5. Feat retraining
Just use the retraining rules in PHB2. Clean, simple, codified, in a book.
1. Aid another
Too powerful. Bordering on cheese. You're very nearly giving the party at least one re-roll.
2. Standing Up
Shrug. If I wanted to dink with this mechanic, I'd remove the requirement for the feat (I think in CAdv) that lets you stand up without AoO. (Lightning Reflexes is a pre-req.)
3. Charging
Again, not a fan of this. It makes no sense. If you insist on doing this, please at least subtract 5ft of movement per occupied square the charger passes through.
4. Moving five feet
Ugh.
5. Withdraw
I'm starting to understand. Just let the players do whatever, for whatever reason, 'cuz. No. Strongly no. As you're writing this, all you're doing is saying that if a player would like to double-move, he can do so without AoO by saying the magic word "withdraw". No. Still no. Even tacking on "you must end up farther from your enemies than you started" is broken. No. It's just bad for the game. If you nearly destroy your enemy that you've got surrounded, he can just zip through everyone's out-stretched arms, past longspears, past enlarged folks with reach... because he said "withdraw"? Did I mention no?
Attacks of Opportunity
Some people like 'em (me), some people don't. I enjoy having to think tactically, having limitations and controls on what I should do so I can solve the problem.
Resting
I really don't like this one. I think you'll find your players much more reckless with this on the table. Healing is much easier to come by in PFRPG and doesn't consume all the good stuff a cleric could otherwise do.
Bottom line: clearly you've got gripes with the game. Change whatever you want to make it what you want to play. Asking for opinions on your opinions probably won't work well. Asking for balance opinions would be something else. This is more "do you also dislike what I dislike"? My answer is: no. (Still no, in some cases. <Grin>)
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All of them are pretty reasonable, except for the recovery rule (I feel it reminds me too much like 4E's "let-me-catch-my-breath-and-I-will-heal-even-my-broken-skull" type of system; I'd suggest something like "You heal 10% of your HPs when you catch your breath, and 50% with a night's sleep"). Also, if you're removing the attacks of opportunity for rising up, make sure you compensate for Improved Trip and similar monster abilities(because they're significantly weaker if you do this).
1. No Favored Classes. No character chooses a favored class.
I will not use them, either. They do not perform the function they're supposed to. Instead, they just reward single-classed characters even more.
So they're gone.
2. Hit Points. Do not roll for hit points. Gain maximum hit points at 1st level, and half of maximum plus one (plus Constitution modifier) for each level thereafter.
I have something similar. For 1st-level, you get average rounded up like every other level, but you get bonus HP equal to one virtual humanoid HD (i.e. 5 plus con)
Annotation:
3. Starting Gold. Do not roll for your starting gold; take the maximum amount.
I have something similar - a fixed amount, though it is higher than what you can roll. Plus, standard gear can be "ignored" rules-wise: You don't have to pay for it, you don't even have to write anything down. We just assume that you have standard stuff like a rope or flint and steel.
4. No XP. XP is not tracked. Leveling up is performed at the DM’s discretion. Spells or effects that cost XP instead cost 5 gp per 1 XP that would be expended.
I still use XP, but this is reasonable as well.
NOTE: PF doesn't have XP cost. Nothing in the PF rules will ever reduce your XP total. XP is no longer a commodity.
5. Feat Retraining. At every 4th level, a character may drop one feat known and replace it with another for which the character qualifies (the new attribute just gained may be used to qualify for the feat). You must still meet all of the prerequisites for every feat and prestige class you have.
I don't have anything official (except for one or two jokers players can use per campaign to change characters or recreate them from scratch), but minor stuff like getting rid of a feat you never used is always possible.
1. Aid Another. When characters aid each other, the lead character is agreed upon after the dice are rolled (usually this is the character with the highest total).
Yeah, I usually handle things like that as well. The guy with the best result is helped by the others.
1. Cover. Opponents may not count your allies as cover. No creature gains cover from a creature smaller in size than it is.
Don't like that one that much: It's a fact that if you want to shoot at an enemy, and your buddy is in the way, it will hinder you.
And even smaller characters can provide cover. Not total cover, of course, but still.
2. Standing Up. Standing up from prone does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
I'd allow acrobatics checks to avoid the AoO, but just do away with it? No! If you're on the ground and some guy stands beside you with a lethal weapon, you're in trouble.
4. Moving Five Feet. Any movement of five feet never provokes an attack of opportunity. That is, even if you are blinded and moving through difficult terrain (so each five feet moved costs you 20 feet of movement), you do not provoke if you have only physically moved five feet.
I usually remind people that a five-foot-step isn't possible right now, but the fact remains that everything that isn't a 5 ft step as defined in the rules won't save you from your enemy. Stumbling around blind or carefully picking your way over treacherous rocks will leave you open. You cannot easily sidestep in such situations.
1. Resting. Resting for 20 minutes allows a character to heal all hit point damage (unless some condition, such as a cursed wound, negates healing).
I strongly disapprove.
This is likely to be the most controversial house rule, but sit back and think about it for a minute. It’s really designed to prevent the “10 minute adventuring day,”
Except that it doesn't. Spellcasters will still go through their spells as fast as before (the only exception being healing spells), so if you have a player who likes to go nova with his character and demand rest after two fights, this rule won't change anything.
They pull out their wands of cure light wounds--the most ubiquitous magic item in the game--and start burning through charges in a race against the durations of their minute/level buff spells. This house rule just gives them the healing, in exchange for taking away the buffs.
So? they still need to obtain them, which will cost them money - even if they're available in large numbers. And if they're creating them themselves, they will spend considerable time doing so.
Yup, spells are a big problem with that recovery rule, it may actually induce 10min day, because you gain alot more for waiting 20 minutes. So rather than few encounters, rest, it becomes encounter, rest, encounter, rest 8 hours anyway for spells. If the 10 minute day is that much of a problem in your games that is. Of course, with your group you know best and it may well work as well as you intend, but I'd reccommend, as you don't seem to have gotten any feedback on that, that you change it to the resting benefit for hp, as in 20 mins recovers 1 hp per character level, and a full nights rest gives you all health instead.
Sound like a more reasonable compromise? Maybe only allow it a number of times per day equal to Con modifier, minimum 1.
Ah, good points all.
* I see that you're more of a simulationist, Anguish, but I agree with your concerns about withdrawing. Perhaps a withdrawal means you don't provoke one opponent you are adjacent to as you begin your withdrawal? That preserves what I'm looking for--the fact that withdrawal from a giant is valueless--but doesn't allow someone to dance through the thicket of blades just by calling it a withdrawal.
* For my "Stand up from prone" rule, it seems that a better result would be to require an Acrobatics check (after all, movement doesn't provoke if you succeed at an Acrobatics check, so there is an analogy within the rules here). A "Kip Up" feat to let you automatically succeed at these checks does not seem out of line, as the feat would be much less applicable than, say, Mobility.
* The "20 minute recovery" house rule does nothing for spellcasters, true, and they are usually the ones calling for rests, rather than fighters who are low on hit points (after all, those guys just burn through the wand charges and they're fine). I'm reluctant to go as far as the Trailblazer rules, which allow all powers to reset on a short rest--that seems a bit too 4E for me.
Asgetrion, your 10%/50% rule seems like a good start, but what's to keep characters from just taking ten "short rests" in a row and then get back to it with 100% of their hit points recovered? Whether the characters stop the exploration for 20 minutes or 200 minutes is not much of a difference--it's when they stop for 480 minutes (8 hours) that most spellcasting resets. Vagrant-poet's limit of "Con modifier" rests in a day may be the way to go here.
Thanks for the thoughts, all. I wouldn't say I've got *gripes* with the game, but I see some proud nails that need hammering down, and in some cases I'm not sure how to hammer 'em.
First off, I get the feeling this thread is really : "This is what I am doing. How many agree?" Meaning you really aren't here to get help, so much as to just tell people what you do. That's ok. I see stuff like that all the time here. I have been known to put out something similar.
My take on most of the rules is that you want the tabletop game to feel like a computer game. In Neverwinter Nights 2, all you have to do is take a rest after every encounter & you reset all hit points and spells. If that is what you want, fine, but I suggest you just get the group to meet online for a computer game session.
I agree with most attacks of opportunity. If you try something silly next to somebody unfriendly, they WILL try to stop you. Your 20 min rest thing is allot like the 10 min rest thing that Trailblazer has in it. That just turns spells & powers into per/encounter powers, like 4e. I don't buy that. I am running PFRPG because I DON'T want 4e, so why houserule stuff to be 4e? If you really don't want the magic to work the way it does, just buy Legends of Sorcery by RPGObjects. They have a skilled based sub for they standard d20 magic system that can be laid over it without too much trouble.
I understand wanting to make a game move along, but sometimes you can go too far. But, hey, it is your game & you have as much fun with it as you can. As long as you group is ok with it, go with it.
Here are some of the things I've thought of doing:
For Hit Points every one rolls d4s to determine hp. D6 would equal 1d4+2, d8s = 1d4+4, d10s = 1d4+6, and d12 = 1d4+8. This keeps things a little bit more random but ensures that the Barbarian is going to get more HP then the wizard per level.
Let the Heal skill do healing. Have a system where a healer spends 5 minutes treating wounds and makes a DC 10 check to heal 1d6 Hp, with every additional 5 points you beat the DC by adding an extra d6.
If you allow Feat Swapping then allow Fighters to trade out their Combat Feats anytime they get a bonus feat as they have a similar ability.
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Characters
1. No Favored Classes. No character chooses a favored class.
My problem with this is there would be no incentive to just go into a prestige class. In that case, you're pretty much going to have a headache keeping track of skill points per level. When you take away a reason to stick with a class, you're only encouraging level dips and prestige classing. This brings it handily back under 3.5 where preferred class was largely ignored, only because the book keeping was a headache.
2. Hit Points. Do not roll for hit points. Gain maximum hit points at 1st level, and half of maximum plus one (plus Constitution modifier) for each level thereafter.
Eh, this is hit or miss. If you're looking for standard progression in a "leave no adventurer behind" sort of way, sure. My house rule was always, roll the hit die re-roll 1's. Though this may change to roll your hit dice twice take the highest. On average it should create a more stable hit dice pool than just rolling once.
3. Starting Gold. Do not roll for your starting gold; take the maximum amount.
Then give everyone rich parents and get it over with. Having everyone start with 900 gold should solve that problem nicely. I mean if the starting gold doesn't matter, why should you care if they have max gold or 900?
4. No XP. XP is not tracked. Leveling up is performed at the DM’s discretion. Spells or effects that cost XP instead cost 5 gp per 1 XP that would be expended.
Try looking up Pathfinder Society's XP rules. I'm sure you could work it out far easier that way. Come up with what constitutes 1 XP then every three they level. YMMV
5. Feat Retraining. At every 4th level, a character may drop one feat known and replace it with another for which the character qualifies (the new attribute just gained may be used to qualify for the feat). You must still meet all of the prerequisites for every feat and prestige class you have.
This just reeks of stepping on the fighter's toes, since they gained a method of retraining bonus feats in this manner. I'd be very careful with how you do that. Perhaps you could just talk with players who have useless feats and allow it on a case by case system. I'd rather this be a DM discussion than a hard and fast rule. Otherwise that feels dreadfully LFR to me. And I'd rather die than see a PFRPG game made into a Wizard's game night.
(This isn't a knock on 4th ed, it has its place. I'm merely discouraging a creation of a very wizard's game night feel, where the characters merely have "placeholder feats" that they wait for higher levels to replace with stronger feats. Keep in mind that technically at 11th level you can have two paragon feats, by simply retraining one of those "placeholders". I'd be wary of any such a system being abused for nefarious ends.)
Skill and Attribute Checks
1. Aid Another. When characters aid each other, the lead character is agreed upon after the dice are rolled (usually this is the character with the highest total).
This just reeks of metagame in my opinion. My thoughts would be to force the most experienced persona t the task (i.e. most skill points) as leader, simply to represent the others taking their lead from the "expert".
2. Aid Another with Alternate Skills. The DM may permit Aid Another attempts with an alternate skill, if the player makes a reasonably good case (i.e., an Intimidate check to aid party trying to Bluff a guard). Someone rolling an alternate skill never becomes the lead character.
This one, I applaud and agree with.
Movement and Combat
1. Cover. Opponents may not count your allies as cover. No creature gains cover from a creature smaller in size than it is.
Removing the entire reason for Precise shot can have good and bad effects on the player base. I'd be wary before you just make a feat useless.
2. Standing Up. Standing up from prone does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
You've already readdressed this as a tumble check, which yes, technically an acrobatics check vs. their CMD by the rules could allow you to stand up. (it does say you can move UP TO half your movement and not provoke against that person. Standing is movement, just very useful movement.)
3. Charging. Allies do not block a charge or impede movement during a charge.
Disagree, heavily. Running when you're merely moving, and getting your weapon ready for an attack are two entirely separate actions. Justifying it by mentioning the running rules is of no help. You're trying to move in a straight line right towards your opponent, not trying to dodge over frank who might get in the way if you jump wrong.
4. Moving Five Feet. Any movement of five feet never provokes an attack of opportunity. That is, even if you are blinded and moving through difficult terrain (so each five feet moved costs you 20 feet of movement), you do not provoke if you have only physically moved five feet.
As has been pointed out, the AoO isn't based on the fact you're moving only five feet away. Its based on the fact you're taking your attention off Mr. McSmashman. He's going to hit you if you're flailing about trying to find your footing on debris and rubble, especially if you aren't looking him in the eyes waiting for that attack.
5. Withdraw. If you take the withdraw action, no point in your movement provokes attacks of opportunity.
Nope, not at all a good idea. However you seem to have come around it it.
6. Attacks of Opportunity. A character provokes attacks of opportunity for only three actions:
a. Movement out of a threatened area. Movement out of an opponent’s threatened area (not threatened square) provokes an attack of opportunity. You can move into or within an opponent’s threatened area without provoking an attack of opportunity. A five foot step or the withdraw action can be used to avoid this attack of opportunity.
SO no matter how close I get, you don't get an attack of opportunity, but the second I take a step back I'm hosed? You've obviously never watched a battle with a dragon via screenplay have you? They will swat you something fierce as soon as you get in their reach. They're catty little things, liking to punish the meat before they cook it to a nice 500* heat.
Micromanaging your moves is going to happen regardless of whether you provoke or not. Things like flanking and positioning to strike other enemies, is also taken into account. I would advice telling your players to stop joking when its not your turn and get your action ready for the next round, including reading between your turns so you knwo if the spell works how you thought.
b. Charging out of a threatened square. If you leave a threatened square when charging an opponent, the opponent may take an attack of opportunity against you.
This is true anyways, this is merely you putting the rule back in because you say you can get close to an enemy but forget how to dodge his attacks when you move back out.
c. Other Actions. Per the rules, some actions provoke attacks of opportunity.
Except for standing up and withdrawing, now.
No thanks. I'd rather my actions be risky, as that adds a bit of drama to the game. Will I get up, or will that alligator eat me alive. Can I charge through the enemies to reach the wizard who's casting? Or am I going to fail as their blades come down upon me...
Recovery
1. Resting. Resting for 20 minutes allows a character to heal all hit point damage (unless some condition, such as a cursed wound, negates healing).
Oh good GODS no, do that and you remove one of the main reasons for there being a cleric in the game. Bards drop dramatically in function, and Paladins aren't as nifty as normal. Healing is a huge resource management issue that encounters are based around. The fifteen minute workday is entirely based on the fact that you have people who blow their load fast and then lose the ability to cast at all for the rest of the day, relegated to peasants until they sleep.
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Here are some of the things I've thought of doing:
For Hit Points every one rolls d4s to determine hp. D6 would equal 1d4+2, d8s = 1d4+4, d10s = 1d4+6, and d12 = 1d4+8. This keeps things a little bit more random but ensures that the Barbarian is going to get more HP then the wizard per level.
Let the Heal skill do healing. Have a system where a healer spends 5 minutes treating wounds and makes a DC 10 check to heal 1d6 Hp, with every additional 5 points you beat the DC by adding an extra d6.
If you allow Feat Swapping then allow Fighters to trade out their Combat Feats anytime they get a bonus feat as they have a similar ability.
Healing already heals HP it takes two uses of a medicine kit and heals...1HP per hit dice of the creature being healed on a DC20. If you hit 25, add your wis modifier to the amount healed. If you lack the kit you're at a -2 per use you can't spend (so -4 no kit -2 with one use left.), and it takes an hour. Its bad heal rate, but better than nothing when someone's dead...
Healing already heals HP it takes two uses of a medicine kit and heals...1HP per hit dice of the creature being healed on a DC20. If you hit 25, add your wis modifier to the amount healed. If you lack the kit you're at a -2 per use you can't spend (so -4 no kit -2 with one use left.), and it takes an hour. Its bad heal rate, but better than nothing when someone's dead...
Let the Heal skill do healing. Have a system where a healer spends 5 minutes treating wounds and makes a DC 10 check to heal 1d6 Hp, with every additional 5 points you beat the DC by adding an extra d6.
The reason I think changing Heal would be bettter is because it makes it a more active skill, allows for a party to heal with out a cleric or paladin, allows clerics to use more of their spells on non-healing magic, it might help stretch out an adventure between rest periods a bit more, and I think it is a better option then rest 20 minutes and get it all back.
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The reason I think changing Heal would be bettter is because it makes it a more active skill, allows for a party to heal with out a cleric or paladin, allows clerics to use more of their spells on non-healing magic, it might help stretch out an adventure between rest periods a bit more, and I think it is a better option then rest 20 minutes and get it all back.Healing already heals HP it takes two uses of a medicine kit and heals...1HP per hit dice of the creature being healed on a DC20. If you hit 25, add your wis modifier to the amount healed. If you lack the kit you're at a -2 per use you can't spend (so -4 no kit -2 with one use left.), and it takes an hour. Its bad heal rate, but better than nothing when someone's dead...
Let the Heal skill do healing. Have a system where a healer spends 5 minutes treating wounds and makes a DC 10 check to heal 1d6 Hp, with every additional 5 points you beat the DC by adding an extra d6.
The problem is you're falling into the same trap as the OP. The fifteen minute workday is a fifteen minute workday because of SPELLS, not because of HP.
The HP and Starting Gold rules I could take em or leave em. Same with No Favored Class - in fact, I kinda like that one.
The rest (for me) range from unappealing to downright absolute repulsion.
Pretty much everything you do to eliminate various AoO situations is a mistake. AoO serves as incentive to think tactically, to fight intelligently. Or pay the price. Take the intelligence out of combat and this might as well be World of Warcraft: I swing, you swing, I swing, you swing...
Cover is cover. Your own allies, or your enemies, or rocks, tables, bushes, tree trunks, castle manchiolations, whatever. If you pick a target and can only see part of that target because something else is in the way, then you have to aim more carefully and you run more of a risk of hitting missing (most likely because you hit the cover instead).
Charging through your allies? No way. Imagine a line of pikemen. Your pikemen. Advancing in battle toward your enemies. And you're the cavalry, a hundred mounted knights, sitting on warhorses behind your pikemen. Your commander sounds the Charge! and your cavalry unit gallops right over the top of your solid wall of pikemen - without trampling any of them? There are reasons you cannot charge through your allies.
Removing XP and leveling when the DM says so would bother me as a player. When I play, I like to think the DM sets up challenges and I find ways to defeat those challenges, for which I am rewarded. I can see the rewards, track the rewards, and measure my success by those rewards. Taking that away makes the challenges seem arbitrary. "Hmmm, is this the challenge for which I will gain a level? No? Crud. I gained nothing. Maybe next challenge? No? Why do it then? How about the challenge after that? No? The one after that? Yes? Sweet, then I skip these first three challenges and go right for the one that matters..."
And resting for 20 minutes is a horrible idea. It invalidates HP all together. You might as well just remove HP like you removed XP. A player or monster just dies when the DM decides he got hit often enough. After the battle, his cuts and scrapes disappear and he's ready for the next battle. You know, kinda like World of Warcraft again. Further, as others have pointed out, your casters will still run out of spells, so you haven't solved the 10-minute adventuring day. Of course, the group could go on indefinately without spells. Everyone hack the orcs to bits. Rest. Hack some more orcs to bits. Rest. Repeat. But that wouldn't be very fun as a spellcaster - they're going to want a real rest whenever they can to get back their spells, so they will insist on the 10-minute adventuring day just as vehemently as they would without this houserule. Heck, at least in World of Warcraft, the spellcasters recover their spells while everyone gets HP back by taking their short rests between fights.
Sadly, I see most of what you've written here as a step toward video games. If I wanted to play WoW, I would be playing WoW (actually, Everquest II is far more to my liking, but almost nobody plays that anymore). When I sit down to a tabletop RPG with a human DM rather than a CPU DM, I expect more reality, more simulationism, less gamistry. Else I would just fire up the computer and play my favorite MMO or CRPG instead.
I can have the best of both worlds. I can have gamism any time I turn on my PC, and I can have simulationism every time I sit down to play Pathfinder. I would really resent my DM deciding to turn off the reality check and redesign Pathfinder into a tabletop video game.
But that's me. Obviously you like these rules or you wouln't have put so much thought and time into creating them. So we'll agree to disagree on where we each get our gamist fix.
Just make sure all your players feel the same way about gamist tabletop RPGs.
Sorry if that's too blunt, but you did ask for our thoughts.
Just curious - with Pathfinder so new and all, why are you houseruling a system that you haven't even really playtested yet? Sure, some of this is much like 3.5 and Pathfinder Beta, so it's easy to assume it's the same. And that's probably even a valid assumption for many rules. Still, it seems premature (to me) to be houseruling a brand new game system so early.
2. I prefer (maximum - 2) instead of (half maximum +1); it gives barbarians something to gloat about. :-)
4. I've done this for quite a while, too.
As far as recovering hit points in 20 minutes, I'm currently using the Recharge Magic variant from Unearthed Arcana in my game, so as long as there's someone who can cast CLW, you can heal between combats very easily. I much prefer allowing casters to cast CLW repeatedly over having the party buy several wands of CLW.
After looking over the final PFRPG rules, identifying my issues with 3.5, and reading some very good analysis of the 3.5/PFRPG rules set (such as Trailblazer), I wanted to come up with one page of formal house rules for all of the PFRPG games I run. Here they are, with my annotations hidden behind spoiler tags. I'd appreciate any input from others about where I might be off base (or on track) with my house rules.
Characters
1. No Favored Classes. No character chooses a favored class.
** spoiler omitted **
2. Hit Points. Do not roll for hit points. Gain maximum hit points at 1st level, and half of maximum plus one (plus Constitution modifier) for each level thereafter.
** spoiler omitted **
3. Starting Gold. Do not roll for your starting gold; take the maximum amount.
** spoiler omitted **
4. No XP. XP is not tracked. Leveling up is performed at the DM’s discretion. Spells or effects that cost XP instead cost 5 gp per 1 XP that would be expended.
** spoiler omitted **...
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Just curious - with Pathfinder so new and all, why are you houseruling a system that you haven't even really playtested yet? Sure, some of this is much like 3.5 and Pathfinder Beta, so it's easy to assume it's the same. And that's probably even a valid assumption for many rules. Still, it seems premature (to me) to be houseruling a brand new game system so early.
I see most of his house rules as common to 3.5 games: Do not roll for hit points, Do not roll for your starting gold, XP is not tracked, and Feat Retraining.
The rest of the rules are a little less common, some are good and some are too good:
The aid other rules are too good. Rolling multiple D20s and taking the best result is too good and it may have unforeseen consequences, especially in combat aid others.
The cover and charging rules are fine. Don't count your allies for cover or blocking charges, this is fine. It really benefits archers for firing into melee. Sounds like everyone gets precise shot as a bonus feat essentially and the duelist class feature acrobatic charge iirc.
The AoO rules are fine and will work. However, is it really worth it? I have played with alternate AoO rules in the past, I found them a chore for our table to keep straight, we were all so programmed in our use of the 3.5 rules that it was more work to not use them than to use them, be aware of that.
No Favored Classes. This I bet will become a very common PF house rule.
The recovery rules will work and your reasoning is sound with the CLW wand tax. However, it does fly a bit against the intent of the game. It removes this bookkeeping aspect of charges but it also removes the important money management portion of the wands. Also, the PF designers have put a lot of work into the cleric and paladin and made them top notch healers. This may be overkill. I like HP's representing equal parts stamina, luck and skill too but this one may not work in PF.
My houserules:
Katana damage: 4d8 + Str score, 10-20/x10.
Ninjas get "Hide in Plain Sight" at 1st level.
Halflings are treated as rogues at their character level, no matter what class they are.
Chainmail bikinis give an inherent Charisma bonus equal to the armor bonus.
45 point buy for character creation.
Sorcerer & wizard can are essentially the same. Get spells like wizard, cast like sorcerer. One has bloodline & other specialization.
Expanded the Bard spell list to include Magic Missile & Fireball.
Candy & pizza are members of the healthy food groups.....for your character's survival, that is.
The thing is, for me as a player at least, is that XP is a major suspension of disbelief. I killed a monster, yay XP's fall out and I rush to scoop them up like rupees in a legend of Zelda game?
Whenever I've played in a game with experience points in it, I've always felt gipped, always felt we'd deserved more experience points, always thought the GM was holding us back.
Now yeah, I agree that's not a good player stance, and after a short amount of time I learned to keep it to myself, but it's still how it felt to me.
That's too bad. RPGs are much more fun when the players and DM are not competing against each other, or under the illusion that they are. I'm not sure whether your DM was really competing against you or you just had that illusion, but either way, your belief that what the DM was giving you was "gipped" could not have enhanced your enjoyment of the game.
Me, I like the XP. I can see my progress and measure it. I can even build roleplay around it, like if I know I will level up very soon, I can try, via roleplay reasons, to be in town or near town when it happens. I can ramp up my effort to find that trainer I've been looking for who can teach me the new PrC I have wanted to take. Etc.
My XP progress can drive the story/RP decisions my character can make. And the opposite is also true.
And, I have never felt like I scoop up XP off the ground, or soak it up in any other videogamey fashion. Sure, XP takes a suspension of belief. But so do HP. And so does rolling a die to find out if I can climb a rope (especially if I have successfully climbed that rope several times but this time I fail). So does blasting fire out of my fingertips.
Lots of stuff in D&D/Pathfinder require suspension of disbelief. If I ignored or houseruled all of them, I would have no game left.
Instead, I suspend the disbelief and roll with the ruleset without any hard feelings.
One last point I want to make, you mentioned something about skipping encounters to the one that matters and gives you a level up. I don't know about most GM's who use XP-less systems, but for me I determine when the PC's have earned a level instinctively, there is no magic level up boss fight. Hell my games virtually never even have boss fights, most battles in my games are roughly even and extremely challenging.
For the record, that was extreme hyperbole for the sake of illustrating a point.
And that point was that for most DMs the right time to level up is at the end of a story arc, or before beginning a new one (not always the same thing). If the story arc is long, there are probably good opportunities to take a break and train new skills at appropriate moments in the arc.
Now, the players rarely know when this will happen. But the DM does. And, oddly enough, the DM usually plans those "perfect moments" as the right time for leveling up.
So, if the players could somehow see the future, and would know that once they reach Fort Blood on the Great Trickle River, the DM will allow them to level up before striking out across the barrens for Wyvernroost Mountain. And if they know this, they might find all kinds of means to get there immediately (for example, hire a mage in town to teleport them to Fort Blood), or they may slog along the Riverside Highway, battling through a dozen encounters until they reach the fort. Either way, they get to level up.
Sure, they won't know this in advance. So they won't metagame to the extreme that I'm describing here.
It's just that, to me, knowing this kind of artificial "level when you need to" system leaves me convinced that I could metagame like this, so it breaks my sense of accomplishment to know that I could fly there and level up, or battle my way there and level up; either way I will level up with no work or tons of work - so how is my accomplishment meaningful?
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Chainmail bikinis give an inherent Charisma bonus equal to the armor bonus.
Strike that, reverse it. Chainmail bikinis grant an armor bonus equal to the wearer's Charisma bonus, plus any relevant enhancement bonuses.
May very well steal this one for my own games.
That's too bad. RPGs are much more fun when the players and DM are not competing against each other, or under the illusion that they are. I'm not sure whether your DM was really competing against you or you just had that illusion, but either way, your belief that what the DM was giving you was "gipped" could not have enhanced your enjoyment of the game.
I'm with you on this DM_Blake. It'd be fascinating to know what his players' opinions are. As I've said I've played both ways and I prefer XP coming regularly. Otherwise there's simply less incentive to get excited about any given session or encounter. You have no clue how and if you're making progress. Is the DM throwing these encounters at me today as make-work because he didn't get around to prepping the campaign arc this week? If I play smart and walk all over an encounter is the DM penalizing me because he thinks it must've been "too easy"?
No. Handing out regular XP is a dialog between DM and player that tells both exactly how things are going.
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The thing is, for me as a player at least, is that XP is a major suspension of disbelief. I killed a monster, yay XP's fall out and I rush to scoop them up like rupees in a legend of Zelda game?
Whenever I've played in a game with experience points in it, I've always felt gipped, always felt we'd deserved more experience points, always thought the GM was holding us back.
If you really want your GM to focus on the story, ask them to modify the XP a bit: -20% for creatures defeated in combat and +20% for creatures/obstacles overcome without killing/destroying them.
I might go ahead and bash down a door anyway because I think it's cool. (!) But if players were rewarded for non-combat encounters, you might see such encounters become a little more interesting.
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Hmm. I that I think about it some more, +/- 20% is too much since that puts a 40% spread between the two extremes. Probably 10% or 15% would be better. And the GM should feel free to use a number somewhere in between the extremes. Maybe the players start out talking and things quickly devolve into a battle. Or maybe they start out in combat but when they've softened up the opposition a little bit, they stop to parlay.
Chainmail bikinis give an inherent Charisma bonus equal to the armor bonus.Strike that, reverse it. Chainmail bikinis grant an armor bonus equal to the wearer's Charisma bonus, plus any relevant enhancement bonuses.
May very well steal this one for my own games.
And here I was thinking the reverse should apply, that they grant a charisma bonus equal to 10 - the armor bonus.
The skimpier the bikini, the greater the CHA bonus...
Ooooh, I hope Mrs. Tarrasque doesn't see this post. She'd surely chomp me with her armored teeth!
If you really want your GM to focus on the story, ask them to modify the XP a bit: -20% for creatures defeated in combat and +20% for creatures/obstacles overcome without killing/destroying them.
Hah!
Not a chance.
I would hoist a paladin by his own petard if he overcame an evil outsider without killing or destroying them. I certainly wouldn't want to motivate him to go around the balrog.
That's just one example.
My real point is that each encounter needs to be taken on its own merits. Some enemies have to die. Some obstacles have to be destroyed. Not because the DM doesn't give any XP for alternative solutions. But because the story demands it.
Certain villains are too vile to let them live. And if you subscribe to the whole "drag them to town and let the law deal with them" then would you use that same mentality when you fight orcs? Zombies? Beholders (like a jail cell could hold them)? Evil mastermind illithid necromancer/sorcerers with dozens of deadly spells at their fingertips?
Would you haul a gelatinous cube off to jail? What if it was in the middle of the road? You surely wouldn't just go around, tally up your XP (with a 10-20% bonus no less), and let some poor townsfolk blunder down the road and get eaten by the cube, would you?
No, a blanket rule offering a flat bonus for Greepeace solutions to every encounter is just too generic to be anything but silly.
If you really want your GM to focus on the story, ask them to consider providing alternative solutions to many encounters where an alternative makes sense, and to even consider offering bonus XP for choosing those alternatives when it makes sense, in character, to do so.
The skimpier the bikini, the greater the CHA bonus...
I'm not sure about that Blake. There are women for whom going skimpy isn't to their advantage...
I'm sure that if I had to meet an orcich girl in bar, to more clothes she'd have, the higher the "charisma"...
'findel
The skimpier the bikini, the greater the CHA bonus...I'm not sure about that Blake. There are women for whom going skimpy isn't to their advantage...
I'm sure that if I had to meet an orcich girl in bar, to more clothes she'd have, the higher the "charisma"...
'findel
Yeah, well, we're talking fantasy here. Frank Frazetta set the bar for heroic fantasy femmes, and for their attire. If that orcish girl is in a bar in a world in which chainmail bikinis even exist, she's already prequalified to have the right goods to get full effect from the bikini.
Which isn't to say, we might want to buy her a veil. Or a ski mask. Or buy me another pitcher of ale...
Perhaps a multiplier to your existing CHA bonus, then?
If you've got a bonus, it makes it better, if you've got a penalty ... it's not going to make you any prettier, that's for sure.
Incidentally, the way we do hitpoints is roll, and if it's worse than average we take the average (max/2 for even levels, max/2 + 1 for odds).
I would hoist a paladin by his own petard if he overcame an evil outsider without killing or destroying them.
Really? You'd penalize a paladin of Sarenrae for redeeming an evil outsider? It's more out-of-character for them to kill the outsider than it is for them to try to redeem them unless they have no other choice. Sarenrae's motto is "everyone can be redeemed".
My houserules:
Katana damage: 4d8 + Str score, 10-20/x10.
Ninjas get "Hide in Plain Sight" at 1st level.
Halflings are treated as rogues at their character level, no matter what class they are.
Chainmail bikinis give an inherent Charisma bonus equal to the armor bonus.
45 point buy for character creation.
Sorcerer & wizard can are essentially the same. Get spells like wizard, cast like sorcerer. One has bloodline & other specialization.
Expanded the Bard spell list to include Magic Missile & Fireball.
Candy & pizza are members of the healthy food groups.....for your character's survival, that is.
Sometimes I wonder how many realize these are joke houserules. Except that bikini thing, lol.
I would hoist a paladin by his own petard if he overcame an evil outsider without killing or destroying them.Really? You'd penalize a paladin of Sarenrae for redeeming an evil outsider? It's more out-of-character for them to kill the outsider than it is for them to try to redeem them unless they have no other choice. Sarenrae's motto is "everyone can be redeemed".
Oh, well, I play in a world where evil outsiders are, primarily, made of evil. That's probably not quite Golarion's viewpoint, but it is mine.
In that context, redeeming a devil is about as likely as teaching a fire elemental to become water.
Impossible.
"everyone can be redeemed" is talking about "everyone", not "everything". Demons, devils, angels, archons, etc., they are more things than they are people. They are constructed of a raw concept (evil, good, chaos, law, etc.) and are, therefore, just as intractible as elementals constructed of air, earth, fire, water, etc. They are more sentient than elementals, but they are no more people, nor are they creatures. And their moral code, ethics, alignment, whatever you call it, is as much in their DNA as fire is in a fire elemental's DNA.
At least in my game.
So, yeah, maybe in a game where this is not the case (which might be most of them), then redemtion trumps destruction among the good, corruption trumps destruction among the evil, law would find the idea abhorrent (a creature has a purpose, changing it's purpose is anathema to truly lawful entities) and chaos simply wouldn't care.
More or less.
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Sometimes I wonder how many realize these are joke houserules. Except that bikini thing, lol.My houserules:
Katana damage: 4d8 + Str score, 10-20/x10.
Ninjas get "Hide in Plain Sight" at 1st level.
Halflings are treated as rogues at their character level, no matter what class they are.
Chainmail bikinis give an inherent Charisma bonus equal to the armor bonus.
45 point buy for character creation.
Sorcerer & wizard can are essentially the same. Get spells like wizard, cast like sorcerer. One has bloodline & other specialization.
Expanded the Bard spell list to include Magic Missile & Fireball.
Candy & pizza are members of the healthy food groups.....for your character's survival, that is.
Duh...cuz a real houserule would make all katanas vorpal! on a 10+
Characters
1. No Favored Classes.
You mean less railroading? I like that. Funny how people will complain about cookie-cutter builds and in the next paragraph say that they want to "stay pure" and not multiclass. The whole anti-multiclass movement needs to take a pill and get off its high horse. Versatility is good and interesting.2. Hit Points.
Like.3. Starting Gold.
Like4. No XP.
Dislike. Breeds distrust.5. Feat Retraining.
Like. It removes some leveling anxiety because choosing the right feats is hard and often full of surprises.Movement and Combat
1. Cover. Lots of smaller creatures should provide cover.2. Standing Up. Standing up from prone does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Like. Some CMs are ridiculously strong because of this, which forces the nerfing of feats and some weapons instead of tackling (not pun intended) this.3. Charging. Allies do not block a charge or impede movement during a charge.
Like, although you lose the French maneuver (trampling your own troops to charge to the front :D)4. Moving Five Feet. Any movement of five feet never provokes an attack of opportunity. meh.
5. Withdraw. If you take the withdraw action, no point in your movement provokes attacks of opportunity. meh. Withdraw is already powerful enough.
6. Attacks of Opportunity. A character provokes attacks of opportunity for only three actions:
not sure what you're going for here, when clause c seems to reintroduce everything.Recovery
1. Resting. Resting for 20 minutes allows a character to heal all hit point damage (unless some condition, such as a cursed wound, negates healing).This is silly and a show-stopper. Wounds are a serious matter. I can't "take seriously" (as in get immersed and attain suspension of disbelief) a game where wounds go away on their own in a few minutes. i would actually go the other way and nerf the healing, especially the whole lame "I win anyway button" AoE channeling thing.
Lots of great stuff...
for your game.
But i wouldn't use this.
This thread is like 7 years old.
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Please show some respect to the rest of the community.
You posting on this thread almost made me spend at least 15 minutes (probably a lot more) to write a respons to the original post, giving feed-back, etc, which would be a total waste of my time since it's 7 years old (the guy will probably never read my respons 7 years later and he has probably already changed his house-rules many times over anyway).It's okay if you don't care about him not reading your respons. But if you're going to necromance threads, please inform and make future posters aware of it.
Not trying to cause you trouble, just wanted to post. Not asking you to waste your time on this thread.
You also don't have to post on every thread you see.Not to be rude to you, of course.