What qualifies as a dead level, and where are the dead levels in each class?
Dead levels are the levels you spend...you know...dead...
OK, seriously...dead levels typically refers to levels where you get no class features or improvement of class features. I've also seen it used from time to time to reference levels where the class feature gain is irrelevant or weak.
*Edit...ninjad...shoot...howed that happen?
Dead levels are levels where no class features are gained. Pathfinder has pretty much eliminated that problem from the classes. Examples would be every level after first for the 3.5 cleric and every level the 3.5 fighter didn't get a bonus feat.
Dead levels are levels where you don't get anything new. Just because there's nothing on the chart doesn't make it a dead level.
To put it differently, some levels are deader than others. For instance, the wizard gets new spell levels on odd levels and bab/save increases on even levels, neither of which show on the chart.
When I'm building a class, the layout often has 'virtual class features' or notes in the progression, such as [new spell level] or [bab off-level]. I delete these once I'm done spacing things out.
...Wizards are just plain boring again...
I'm sorry, I'm not sure if you and I are thinking of the same class.
A level where you gain a feat from normal character progression is not a dead level.
A level where you gain an ability score increase is not a dead level.
A level where you gain a significant new benefit from your class level (e.g. a bonus feat, a rogue talent, access to a new class ability, etc.) are not dead levels.
Levels where basically the only things that improve are your BAB, HP and saves are dead levels.
A level where you gain a feat from normal character progression is not a dead level.
A level where you gain an ability score increase is not a dead level.
A level where you gain a significant new benefit from your class level (e.g. a bonus feat, a rogue talent, access to a new class ability, etc.) are not dead levels.
Levels where basically the only things that improve are your BAB, HP and saves are dead levels.
Problem is that we're talking about classes, and you can't expect levels in a given class to line up with a given character level.
In 3.5, the fighter got a feat every level.. unless he took 1 monk level. Then he got two feats every other level.
Ha, I keep forgetting that 3.5 gave a feat every three levels, not every two. Disregard that.
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...Wizards are just plain boring again...I'm sorry, I'm not sure if you and I are thinking of the same class.
compared to the beta Wizard, the Beta wizard was better than the PF Wizard, now the Sorcerer is not only different but mechanically far better...
Bloodline Powers: Aberrant sorcerers
Acidic Ray (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can fire an acidic ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The acidic ray deals 1d6 points of acid damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Long Limbs (Ex): At 3rd level, your reach increases by 5 feet whenever you are making a melee touch attack. This ability does not otherwise increase your threatened area. At 11th level, this bonus to your reach increases to 10 feet. At 17th level, this bonus to your reach increases to 15 feet.
Unusual Anatomy (Ex): At 9th level, your anatomy changes, giving you a 25% chance to ignore any critical hit or sneak attack scored against you. This chance increases to 50% at 13th level.
Alien Resistance (Su): At 15th level, you gain spell resistance equal to your sorcerer level + 10.
Aberrant Form (Ex): At 20th level, your body becomes truly unnatural. You are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks. In addition, you gain blindsight with a range of 60 feet and damage reduction 5/—.
Wizard: Abjuration School
The abjurer uses magic against itself, and masters the art of defensive and warding magics.
Resistance (Ex): You gain resistance 5 to an energy type of your choice, chosen when you prepare spells. This resistance can be changed each day. At 11th level, this resistance increases to 10. At 20th level, this resistance changes to immunity to the chosen energy type.
Protective Ward (Su): As a standard action, you can create a 10-foot-radius field of protective magic centered on you that lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence modifier. All allies in this area (including you) receive a +1 deflection bonus to their AC for 1 round. This bonus increases by +1 for every five wizard levels you possess. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
Energy Absorption (Su): At 6th level, you gain an amount of energy absorption equal to 3 times your wizard level per day. Whenever you take energy damage, apply immunity, vulnerability (if any), and resistance first and apply the rest to this absorption, reducing your daily total by that amount. Any damage in excess of your absorption is applied to you normally.
This was a fix. Sorcerers were inferior to wizards and needed more of a boost.
Which is talking about balance, anyway, not about how interesting or boring they are. Wizards have more complex decisions to make level by level, day by day and round by round than any other class. I seriously don't know how you can be playing the same game as the rest of us and call them "boring".
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Obviously the definition of 'dead level' varies from person to person just as 'lawful and chaotic' does. :)
My definition of dead level is anything where you only get standard increases and spellcasting. I wouldn't count things like trap sense and sneak attack progression as dead because then you ARE getting something, even if it is more of the same.
The reason I count spellcasting in there is that in 3.5 there was no reason to stick with a cleric when you could just switch over to a full-progression prestige class that had real class features.
Having a class feature at every level makes multiclassing a real choice rather than 'well, not getting anything from that third level of fighter, time to go rogue!'
A level where you gain X from normal character progression is not a dead level.
Yes it is, to me. Because ANY class you take at that level will get you that X increase. There is no incentive not to multiclass because you're going to get that either way.
Obviously the definition of 'dead level' varies from person to person just as 'lawful and chaotic' does. :)
My definition of dead level is anything where you only get standard increases and spellcasting. I wouldn't count things like trap sense and sneak attack progression as dead because then you ARE getting something, even if it is more of the same.
The reason I count spellcasting in there is that in 3.5 there was no reason to stick with a cleric when you could just switch over to a full-progression prestige class that had real class features.
Having a class feature at every level makes multiclassing a real choice rather than 'well, not getting anything from that third level of fighter, time to go rogue!'
I count those as separate issues.
You could have a class that rolls 1d20 for HP, 16 skill points per level and has a BAB equal to twice its level, then nothing else. Every level would be dead, but it would certainly be worth sticking with it. =p
Also, cleric level 7th does grant a substantial bonus(4th level spells), it just so happens that Divine Disciple (or, pretty much every other cleric PrC) gives that and more. That's an issue with PrCs. If I were a clr6 looking at a cleric/fighter multiclass, those 4th level spells would be a real incentive to stick it out another level.
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This was a fix. Sorcerers were inferior to wizards and needed more of a boost.
Which is talking about balance, anyway, not about how interesting or boring they are. Wizards have more complex decisions to make level by level, day by day and round by round than any other class. I seriously don't know how you can be playing the same game as the rest of us and call them "boring".
I agreed with the Sorcerer increases, I just wish they had fine-tuned the Wizard bonuses, but left the higher level bonuses.
Immunity to a single energy type is NOT incentive to stay in the wizard class to level 20.
Yes it is, to me. Because ANY class you take at that level will get you that X increase.
Your point being?
Levels where you get a significant boost in power from your character levels are the perfect time to take your class levels that you don't get much of a boost from - that way, you're getting a solid improvement every level, rather than a spurt of extra goodness followed by mostly insignificant stuff.
Playing a single-classed fighter, you have no dead levels, because every level you get a feat.
If you take one level of Barbarian, followed by 19 levels of fighter, then every even level that you don't get an ability score increase is a dead level.
Every class has natural lulls in its progression - and you want to fit those into the high points of your character levels, so that you get a steady growth - gaining power in fits and starts will leave you underpowered about half the time.
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Your point being?
My point being that we were discussing the dead levels of a class, which is divorced from character progression. When you attempt to nullify dead levels in play, you look at what levels you are not getting anything in and try to match them to levels where you get feat/ability increases. Therefore, you have to figure out what dead levels you have before you factor in standard character progression, especially if you are multiclassing.
Now if we are talking class design rather than character design, you would be absolutely correct.
Wizards ARE boring in class progression after lvl 8 or so. You gain no cool stuff after that anymore save for another special power at 20 or so. Beta wizard had bonus spells (quite powerful... an extra lvl 7 or 8 spell is nothing to sneeze at).
Wizards are basically the only Pathfinder class where there's no reason not to prestige class out from after lvl 8. A shame. I wish there was reason to stay wizard up to lvl 20.
In that case, unless I'm missing something, I would say that the 2nd Level Sorcerer looks deader than a door nail. Especially when compared to other classes 2nd Level.
The sorcerer gets BAB at second level, increased will save another cantrip they can know, CL level increases by 1 and another 2nd 1st level spell they can cast. Not really a dead level but pretty close to it. I notice all the other non class feature levels all grant the next higher spell level. I wonder why they they didn't just put the Blood line spell at 2nd and the Bloodline power at 3rd to be consistent.
The lvl 8 school power further increase in effect with Wizard level, his familiar gets additional bonuses. I just wonder whether the bonded item shouldn't stop being able to cast higher level spells if they came from a prestige class.
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This was a fix. Sorcerers were inferior to wizards and needed more of a boost.
I agree with the wizard completely. Just look at the arcane bond and new specialists rewards.
But with the Sorcerers it wasn't that they needed a boost in my opinion. It was that all they did was nuke things. They were purely a hack and slash class and now they've got more character with the bloodlines.
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This was a fix. Sorcerers ARE inferior to wizards and needed more of a boost.I agree with the wizard completely. Just look at the arcane bond and new specialists rewards.
But with the Sorcerers it wasn't that they needed a boost in my opinion. It was that all they did was nuke things. They were purely a hack and slash class and now they've got more character with the bloodlines.
Fixed that for you ;-)
In all seriousness though, the one thing on Sorcs that gets me still is their -1 level spell progression over wizards. Not getting level 3 spells until 6 is a HUGE hindrance and still is. Sorcs are a lot better than they used to because of their bloodlines and now there's an actual reason to take more than the minimum level of sorc levels possible. With that though, they're still just one-trick ponies. Once you start looking at an equal level specialized wizard with an arcane focus, they're casting nearly as many spells per level (one spontaneously), and have the diversity to fit a group that plays creatively. I never understood why sorcs have to sit a level behind wizards on learning new spells.
As for dead levels, I forget the exact level but there was one for Bards in the old system regardless of which dead level definition you used. They received no BAB upgrade, no new songs, no saves, no new spells per day and no new spells known. I think it happened twice through their progression (which was always painful).
The lvl 8 school power further increase in effect with Wizard level, his familiar gets additional bonuses. I just wonder whether the bonded item shouldn't stop being able to cast higher level spells if they came from a prestige class.
The lvl 8 ability improvements are kinda meh to me. Some state 'for every 4 levels thereafter' which may also be explained you get the power improvement even when you've prc-ed out.
I thought that the 'levels' in class ability always meant levels in the class granting you the ability...
Aside from that wizards shouldn't get the main upgrades from class features other thank spells, which are powerful enough IMO.