I am playing a barbarian in James Jacob's bi-weekly Sandpoint campaign, and one work-around for this situation is the Die Hard feat. It's got Endurance as a prereq, so it's pretty expensive, but it does stave off unconsciousness for a bit, which is nice.
Also, this won't work for every barbarian, and it's not as useful as the Diehard feat, but half-orc barbarians get an extra round of consciousness in which they can get healed when this happens, due to the half-orc ferocity racial ability.
I'm not sure really sure why people keep bringing this up.
The 'suicidal' problem is not at low levels. At those levels, the instantaneous loss of Rage HPs may tend to eat into the number of stabilization chances a Barbarian has, but given CON is a signifigant 2ndary stat for them, they tend to have a longer bleed-out period and a higher chance to make the CON check to stabilize.The issue is at mid-levels and beyond, once the Rage HPs are greater than the Barbarian's CON score, dropping Rage when the Rage HPs were keeping you up kicks you right PAST the entire 'dying' stage, straight to "DEAD MEAT": Die-Hard or Orc Ferocity only function when you are in the 'Dying' range, not when you are truly 'Dead'. Those abilities are not 'synergetic' with Barbarians at all (though their FLAVOR makes me expect they WOULD)
As Dennis and I mentioned, the new spell "Breath of Life" (5th level Cleric spell) now gives a *1 round* window to resuscitate such a dead-meat Barbarian (or any other character who just died), but it heavily seems like a band-aid, and not available if A) your Cleric has no more spells of it left (it's not spontaneously castable like 'Cure' spells) or B) you are relying upon non-Cleric sources of healing, i.e. Paladins, Druids, Rangers, Bards, and/or UMD Wand users. The problem with Rage HPs outpacing CON score actually kicks in as early as 5th level for an 18 CON Barbarian, substantially earlier than Breath of Life appears.
I would have NO problem whatsoever if dropping Rage left you at -1 unconscious, or even at -CON hp and stabilized (although that leaves NO margin for spillover damage). The problem is that USING YOUR CLASS ABILITY is highly suicidal. Realistically, this HEAVILY motivates players drop Rage early to avoid this scenario, but besides the blatant meta-gaming of that, it means a CORE Class Ability which is supposed to scale with level is not being used, because it's consequences are character-ending.
Suicidal Class Features just don't seem like good game design - Ending up unconscious on the VERGE of death is fine and consistent with flavor (and barring outside assistance, that would STILL mean death for the majority of instances). To claim 'that's all up-side (HPs), don't whine' ignores the fact that Barbarians are also taking an AC penalty, i.e. they will take more melee/ranged damage than other combatants because they will be hit more often.
I'm baffled why this wasn't addressed at all, after Jason commented he was looking at it.
The solution of Rage allowing full actions while in the "dying" range, and once (+2hp/lvl) is greater than the Barbarian's CON score, increasing the "death point" +2/lvl seemed elegant, not reducing damage/ necessary healing AT ALL, but avoiding the 'un-Cure-able Suicide" issue and intriguingly synergizing with Die-Hard/Orc Ferocity (as your "death point" is increased at all times). As is, high level Barbarians will only rarely experience being in the 'dying' range, thus the 2 Feat investment for Die-Hard is a mockery.
Even the solution (still available as a viable interpretation of the RAW) of the Rage HP 'pool' in fact ABSORBING damage and actually 'disappearing' rather than subtracting damage when Rage is dropped, would address the "Suicide" issue while still leaving the Barbarian in "Unconscious/Dying" state when dropping Rage while Rage HPs were keeping them up. Again I brought this up during the play-test, so I'm at a loss why the wording wasn't clarified to make this interpretation obvious to more players (if it was desired), or the wording wasn't clarified to exlclude this interpretation (if Suicidal Barbarians are good for the game). ...????
How did a 4th level barbarian get an AC of 21? The AC is one of the main reasons I am hesitant about playing one.
Arghh.. message board ate my message.
I was going to say I think the Barbarian had a breastplate +1, ring of prot +1, amulet +1, Dex 14.
AC = 10 + 7 (armor) + 1 (ring) + 1 (amulet) + 2 (dex) = 21 AC
Maybe he had the Dodge feat, maybe he was using Guarded Stance, maybe he didn't have the amulet, maybe he had a Dex of 16. I have no idea, wasn't my character, and it wasn't my job to double check all his numbers.
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I makes sense to allow rage to continue while a barbarian is unconscious, at least for a few rounds. Rage is like adrenaline and adrenaline doesn't go away instantly, it would take several rounds for your body to "come down".
So in-game, it makes sense to allow a Barbarian to continue his rage for a few extra rounds (maybe up to his CON bonus?).
Out of game, it makes sense to allow this also, so that your Barbarian doesn't die all of the time after levels 4-5+.
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Quandary,
The reason people are suggesting Diehard and Orc Ferocity is that they keep you from going unconscious. You only lose the temporary hit points if you stop raging. In the context we're talking about, stop raging=go unconscious. Both these abilities prolong the conscious phase so you've got a round or two to get healed without going unconscious.
Example. Lvl10 barbarian gets knocked to -3. Now, normally, this would mean he goes unconscious, stops raging, loses his 20 bonus hitpoints and is dead, dead, dead. If he has Diehard, he is still in the 'dying' category and so remains conscious. As he's still conscious he hasn't stopped raging. As he hasn't stopped raging, he hasn't lost the 20 bonus hit points and is still alive. Granted he can be killed by single lucky hit, but that's always the case with people using the Diehard feat.
Personally, I'd give Barbarians Endurance as a bonus feat sometime. It fits with the archetype at least as much as the Rangers and makes Diehard more appealing as the only people I've seen take that feat are Ranges who got the pre-req for free. No one wants to use a feat on Endurance.
What are you talking about? An 8th level barbarian gets 16 temporary hitpoints, a 10th level one 20. The Con bonus is always +4.
Eh... looks like both of us were off. (Thanks for catching that!)
The CON bonus DOES match the increasing STR bonus at high levels (PRD),which is still suicidal at high levels, though not as big as the numbers as I was using (and not as early, more like 10th+), and Breath of Life IS actually useful for such scenarios, though you still need a Cleric with it memorized.
I think it should count as extra hit points, those that do go away first. It would make things much easier and more balanced.
@Xum: Jason even mentioned that as an option he was considering during the playtest,
my only concern was that gaining Temp HPs EACH RAGE is exploitable, right?
It could have been implemented as Temp Rage HPs per/day though...
my only concern was that gaining Temp HPs EACH RAGE is exploitable, right?
It could have been implemented as Temp Rage HPs per/day though..
Care to explain? I think I missed something here...
I'm baffled why this wasn't addressed at all, after Jason commented he was looking at it.
The change of wording makes it pretty clear that it was looked at and the solution was to clear up the wording so everyone knew exactly how the power worked instead of leaving a gray area the way 3.5 did.
It wasn't addressed because it's not perceived as a problem with the game.
This is a barbarian:
Barbarians have death wishes. It's part and parcel of the motif, and the mechanics reflect that beautifully. Without a lot of luck, or a dedicated and watchful healer, or a solid Wisdom score, or some metagame decision-making, their very nature is to fight until they fall, then fall hard. And this is appropriate! Iconic even! A barbarian's death can be as much the stuff of legend as another character's entire career. Casey Jones: steel-drivin' barbarian.
Or this:
+1. If you want to play a character who survives to level 20, play an archery ranger or a cleric or something. When you play a barbarian, you have to accept the fact that you're likely to get killed at some point -- but that your death will be GLORIOUS, covered in the blood and surrounded by the corpses of your enemies, a death that bards will sing of for generations.
If that is not a problem they might as well just give a Str bonus and no one would have to worry about dropping rage before it ends...
@Dennis: It was cleared up with regards to "Raging while Unconscious", but exactly what "the Rage HPs disappear" means is still vague: "HPs disappear" to my knowledge is never used elsewhere when HPs are to be subtracted, and the interpretation considering a Rage HP 'pool' (full or empty) which disappears (i.e. no longer can contribute positive HPs to keep you conscious) but is not SUBTRACTED, is just as valid under the current Pathfinder wording as it was under 3.5.
The fact Jason apparently WAS considering treating them as de jure Temporary HPs during the playtest makes me think the (common) over-kill suicide interpretation was NOT seen as inherently necessary by Jason. The flavor of "the damage catching-up" when Rage is dropped is completely valid (I don't want to get rid of it), but there are SEVERAL options that retain it but don't make high level Barbarian so easily killable beyond the point of Cure spells. The number of 3.5 players using "Raging while Unconscious" to achieve a not-so-Suicidal Barbariann tells me that this WAS seen as a kill-joy by a large amount of players. /shrug
But it does states (unfortunatelly) that those HPs are not lost first as temporary ones, so it does, in a way, say it's subtracted. Like when u take Con damage for example. And it actually makes sense since u get Con not hps per se.
@Xum: Aha, Pathfinder actually changed the part on losing Temporary CON bonus.
(The SRD didn't include wording instructing you to remove it from your current total.)
!Suicidal Barbarians Ahoy!
@Xum: Aha, Pathfinder actually changed the part on losing Temporary CON bonus.
(The SRD didn't include wording instructing you to remove it from your current total.)!Suicidal Barbarians Ahoy!
This is how it was under 3.5.
"The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal."
To quote the great Talking Heads:
Same as it ever was, Same as it ever was, Same as it ever was...
The flavor of "the damage catching-up" when Rage is dropped is completely valid (I don't want to get rid of it), but there are SEVERAL options that retain it but don't make high level Barbarian so easily killable beyond the point of Cure spells. The number of 3.5 players using "Raging while Unconscious" to achieve a not-so-Suicidal Barbariann tells me that this WAS seen as a kill-joy by a large amount of players. /shrug
A large amount of players are min/maxing crybabies. Had you never noticed?
Barbarians are not easily killable! They have more hit points than literally anyone else BEFORE rage, and get damage reduction to counteract low AC.
Treating your "extra" hit points from rage as anything other than a supercharged Die Hard is, and always has been, patently stupid. If the Barbarian's Wisdom is sub-10, I can see this as roleplaying; otherwise it's just playing badly. Either way there's no flaw in the design. You were given a mile, and took a league.
@Dennis: Right, but "go away" means more or less the same thing as "disappear".
In any case, Pathfinder is definitely 110% clear on this issue now, for better or worse.
A large amount of players are min/maxing crybabies. Had you never noticed?
Nah, it's just a small but vocal minority.
@Quandary
FWIW - I'm kind of ambivalent on the whole rage induced death issue. I just don't think it's fair to lay this complaint on Paizo's lap when it was an issue back in 3.5.
I would suggest finding a DM that doesn't try to kill players. Barbarians tend to have more HP than other party members, and thats before raging. If the DM is going to routinely drop a raging barbarian to -1 or worse, how the hell do any of the other classes survive?Actually, that's my LG experience. I was tanking, therefore I'm taking hits; since around level 6, anything appropriate is guaranteed to hit you at least 3 out of 4 times. It doesn't take long to go through a lot of hit points. Even with the party cleric acting as a healbot.
Edit: If it wasn't for raging while below 0 hit points, he would have died in every module. *Not making an argument there, simply a statement of fact of my experience in Organized Play.
Organized Play isn't what I'd consider typical...it seems most of the module writers seem to think the goal is to kill the PC's, or only be doable by highly optimized characters. And the table DM still shouldn't be targetting all the monsters at one PC. As I said, considering barbarians have more HP (usually, barring a wimpy Con bonus for sure in Organized Play) than the rest of the party, the only way I see a barbarian being taken down to dying every single fight is either the DM is trying to kill the barbarian (possibility, seen it happen), the encounter being designed to be as hard as all 4 daily encounters in one shot, or the party not working together well enough to drop targets long enough, and combat extending on for to long (doubtful, since you said you had rounds of rage left).
But, this is also based on my experience, I've never seen a barbarian drop first, in a game I've run or a game I've played in. By the time the barbarian has gotten to his last legs, there was at least one other frontliner on the ground, usually the rogue, but sometimes a fighter.
Ehh, not quite. :) What I meant was: Die Hard keeps you up and fighting, but when you're done with it, you're done. Barbarian's is "supercharged" because you don't take stress damage and aren't staggered. You're still below the point where you'd normally be down for a nap, and you can still run yourself six feet under.
And you can still take Diehard, which makes it just stupidly good. I don't get where all the complaining comes from. ;)
Your idea about extending the negative range is another thing entirely. It might actually be a solid tweak if the Barbie turns out notably inferior to other beatsticks as some are worried it might. Something like whenever he gains a point of damage reduction, he also adds a multiplier to his Constitution for determining negative hit points. 5/- = 6*Con negative. This will still kill you if you drop during a Mighty Rage (barring 27+ Constitution) but it's a truckload of leeway!
@Dennis: Completely.
I'm basically just *honestly surprised* it developed this way, given the only comment of Jason's on this topic during the play-test was more or less completely the opposite direction to where it ended up (solidifying the most lethal 3.5 interpretation - albeit one that 99% of players used).
Then again, I'm sure just about everybody involved in the play-test was surprised at more than one thing in the Final. I'm sure Jason himself would have liked one more round of play-testing, but keeping to deadlines for good marketing ops like Gen-Con is most definitely a good goal if you aren't just in it as a hobby.
And not to let criticism over-shadow things, some of the other things Pathfinder introduced definitely *DO* function as effective band-aids for this, allowing resuscitation within 1 round (Breath of Life) and (limited) ranged Healing (Channel) to use pre-emptively when you know the Barbarian's taken some good hits and must be low. Those combined *will* mean the number of situations that develop into super-lethality *will* be MUCH less (as long as you have a Cleric or at least a Palladin in your Party - which is hardly a sudden new requirement).
Upon reviewing the barbarian class, including it's class abilities and their respective level, I feel more convinced that the barbarian will end up like the 3.5 fighter. A class to dip into.
I agree with this assessment. I've considered a 1 level dip into barbarian to combine with druid (for the rage+wildshape).
.....and get damage reduction to counteract low AC.
Even at levels 10 and 11 you can fight monsters that do 20+ points of damage per hit. DR 2 is not much comfort against such numbers.
Mathematically speaking, DR1 offsets -2 AC against anything doing 10 pts of dmg or less. DR 2 counteracts anything doing 20 hp.
The barbarian can go up to DR 5/-, and more if he picks the Rage power. DR isn't made to soak entire hits...it's made to mitigate dmg. Sure, you don't see the effect as being important on big hits...but 5 pts of DR over 4 hits is 20 dmg, which is very significant. YOu can see the interaction directly with Power Attack...-2 TH for 2 pts dmg. The Barbarian has a Rage AC penalty, but gets DR to offset it. And note the Barb still has that DR when not raging, and not taking the AC penalty!
And this whole thing about 'instant death' just mystifies me. Barbarian HP from Con has always worked this way...this is nothing new. You are supposed to realize this and work with it. What the barbarian can do is survive taking hits that drop Mr. Fighter and keep right on going. MR. Fighter might be dead, Mr. Barb is chugging along and possibly SHOULD be dead...hasn't realized it yet, giving him another round or two for the cleric or himself to heal himself, and stay in the game.
LIkewise, a Barb shouldn't be forced to rage and go greatsword with every fight. Using a one handed weapon and shield is perfectly permissible. You can always drop the shield and zweihand with a longsword or battle axe...the extra 2 pts you lose off the greatsword, big whoop.
In short, playing all barbs like combat crazy zweihanders is very thematic, and pretty stupid. Barbarians are cunning, and using a shield is a fine option for them if going up against a tough foe...they'll really outlast the enemy if they need to, then!
===Aelryinth
DR 2 counteracts anything doing 20 hp.
===Aelryinth
Is that 20 hp or less or a minimum of 20 up to X?
I know there are barbarian rage powers that can build the DR, and a feat in complete warrior that increases DR, but if the class requires a certain power by every build then something is wrong with the class.
I know nobody said the DR power was required, but I felt as though it would eventually come up.
DR 2 counteracts anything doing 20 hp.
===AelryinthIs that 20 hp or less or a minimum of 20 up to X?
I know there are barbarian rage powers that can build the DR, and a feat in complete warrior that increases DR, but if the class requires a certain power by every build then something is wrong with the class.
I know nobody said the DR power was required, but I felt as though it would eventually come up.
I think that saying its required might be a bit of overkill. Its going to depend on how much any given players thinks he needs better defense. So it might be a good recommended power for most builds, but I think saying its required might be an overstatement.
Thats my 2 cents on it anyway. Then again, I think alot of people in this thread are going a little overboard saying the barbarian can't survive, by the time a raging barbarian hits -1, he's already taken enough damage most of the time to put any other character well past -1 hit points, at higher levels, he's taken enough to kill any other class, so I don't really get the complaint.
personally I'd like to see an ability added that can convert lethal damage to non-lethal damage, think it would help to spread the healing needed and keeps the barbarian alive (or at least a chance to not be instant-killed whenever he / she should go down) maybe a rage power that can be used while raging as an immediate action once per rage.
better suggestions are welcome, but I like the general idea.
Diehard totally works with rage.
It makes it so that even if you would get brought down due to dropping below 0 hp, you instead can stay up to modified con, and stay raging.
Then again, I think alot of people in this thread are going a little overboard saying the barbarian can't survive, by the time a raging barbarian hits -1, he's already taken enough damage most of the time to put any other character well past -1 hit points, at higher levels, he's taken enough to kill any other class, so I don't really get the complaint.
Worse - if he's taken enough whilst raging to get him to the fall-unconscious-and-die-immediately stage then he's taken enough damage to kill him if he wasnt raging. The rage isnt what's making him die, it's the taking greater damage than his maximum hit points plus constitution stat. If he chooses not to rage because he doesnt like dropping and dying, all that will happen is he'll go unconscious earlier (and no longer be able to act to prevent his impending death) but still die if he takes the same number of hits as the guy next to him raging.
Ignoring half-orcs for simplicity, the rage power is mathematically identical to leaving the barbarian's hit points the same but allowing them to continue acting until they get to negative constitution. The point is when the barb is raging away on 3 hit points, he has to realise he's near death and to act appropriately - the non-raging barbarian is unconscious so can't do anything about the fact that he's going to die if he takes the same damage as his raging companion.
Comparing a raging barbarian being dropped to -1 with a non-raging barbarian being dropped to -1 is apples and oranges - they've taken different damage.
Mathematically speaking, DR1 offsets -2 AC against anything doing 10 pts of dmg or less. DR 2 counteracts anything doing 20 hp.
I'm not sure about the math but I do know that DR goes a long ways and if folks find other rage powers mediocre this is a very good option. DR4 is like a free cure light wounds every other hit, if you get hit twice in a round (not unusual at higher levels) that's 8 points of healing you don't need. If you pick Improved DR at 8, 10, and 12 you have DR6/- at 13th level which will suck up a lot of damage.
DR also touches where the barbarian is weakest, in sucking up damage from opponents.
Then again, I think alot of people in this thread are going a little overboard saying the barbarian can't survive, by the time a raging barbarian hits -1, he's already taken enough damage most of the time to put any other character well past -1 hit points, at higher levels, he's taken enough to kill any other class, so I don't really get the complaint.Worse - if he's taken enough whilst raging to get him to the fall-unconscious-and-die-immediately stage then he's taken enough damage to kill him if he wasnt raging. The rage isnt what's making him die, it's the taking greater damage than his maximum hit points plus constitution stat. If he chooses not to rage because he doesnt like dropping and dying, all that will happen is he'll go unconscious earlier (and no longer be able to act to prevent his impending death) but still die if he takes the same number of hits as the guy next to him raging.
Ignoring half-orcs for simplicity, the rage power is mathematically identical to leaving the barbarian's hit points the same but allowing them to continue acting until they get to negative constitution. The point is when the barb is raging away on 3 hit points, he has to realise he's near death and to act appropriately - the non-raging barbarian is unconscious so can't do anything about the fact that he's going to die if he takes the same damage as his raging companion.
Comparing a raging barbarian being dropped to -1 with a non-raging barbarian being dropped to -1 is apples and oranges - they've taken different damage.
I wasn't comparing per se. I was simply observing that at the point a raging barbarian has dropped to -1 HP, he has absorbed more damage than any other class can take at an equivilent level. I'm not quite sure how that becomes an apples to oranges issue.
I wasn't comparing per se. I was simply observing that at the point a raging barbarian has dropped to -1 HP, he has absorbed more damage than any other class can take at an equivilent level. I'm not quite sure how that becomes an apples to oranges issue.
I was agreeing with you. You werent doing the comparing
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Grab your favorite rage power, and rage away from the class. UNLESS rage powers become a real incentive in the subsequent releases.
They absolutely will. The Advanced Player's Guide, in addition to a handful of new base classes and some other awesome stuff, is going to have nice chunky sections for each of the 11 core classes, with things like new bloodlines, new rogue talents, new mercies, and other fun tools to work with the core classes. A meaty bit of this will involve new rage powers.
I really like the rage power mechanic, and I think there are a lot of cool rage powers in there, but I'm finding that I wish my choices were a little more difficult (I have strength surge and intimidating glare). I'm probably going to go renewed vigor next, followed by terrifying howl and mighty swing. The "problem" is that seems like the optimal path to me, but it also seems to be one of the best paths that emulates what I think of when I think of a barbarian. I'd prefer some additional flavorful options, and Jason assures me they are coming in the APG. I may even try to contribute a couple of my own.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I'm not sure really sure why people keep bringing this up.
The 'suicidal' problem is not at low levels. At those levels, the instantaneous loss of Rage HPs may tend to eat into the number of stabilization chances a Barbarian has, but given CON is a signifigant 2ndary stat for them, they tend to have a longer bleed-out period and a higher chance to make the CON check to stabilize.
The issue is at mid-levels and beyond, once the Rage HPs are greater than the Barbarian's CON score, dropping Rage when the Rage HPs were keeping you up kicks you right PAST the entire 'dying' stage, straight to "DEAD MEAT": Die-Hard or Orc Ferocity only function when you are in the 'Dying' range, not when you are truly 'Dead'. Those abilities are not 'synergetic' with Barbarians at all (though their FLAVOR makes me expect they WOULD)
I understand where you are coming from and as a player of a barbarian I will be watching for this to happen, but the reason I brought up the 2-feat solution, as it were, is that it gives me more time and mobility, often a round or so, to maneuver myself to get healed.
When dragons start barfing out 56 hit points of damage in one shot in a few levels I suspect my perspective may be tested, but the feats are working well for me so far. They may seem a waste at higher level, but I expect to spend a great deal of time in the 0 to -Con range over the course of the campaign.
My character's name is Ostog the Unslain, btw, so it will become readily apparent if and when he confirms your theory in a few levels.
I've never played a barbarian before in any edition, so I am curious to see how it will all turn out.
Bloody, no doubt.
I wonder if it would be cool to build a feat that allows you to trade rage rounds for rounds that pause the death clock on a one-for-one basis, usable only when unconscious.
Or something.
Or the ability to spend a number rage rounds to gain some hit points as a immediate reaction, but it automatically ends the rage.
I wonder if it would be cool to build a feat that allows you to trade rage rounds for rounds that pause the death clock on a one-for-one basis, usable only when unconscious.Or something.
The ranger gets endurance at 3rd level. Perhaps giving that feat to the barbarian at a comparable level would be thematic, and make the jump to diehard less painful. He only gets so many combat feats, and has to survive to high level.
The THF build of most barbarians begs for certain feats. They are the charge-first-ask-questions-later class, and benefit from getting clocked, then healed. Being the deadly, high-hp offensive fighter forces the enemy to deal with him, right now, before he crits the BBEG next round. Other party members can plan better, and use his distraction to lay down some coordinated hurt next round.
The 3.5 barbarian, at higher levels, was still a fearsome opponent, but he was the pre-meatshield meatshield. He could move anywhere, and hurt the BBEG, but not for long.
In concert with a fighter, or even a PF rogue, he has a great role. With clerics healing in 30' bursts, he may not just die so fast. A simple displacement spell does him a world of good.
Food for thought. Barbarians are way fun and way cool, overall. Group synergy is crucial to them, hit points and all.
I wonder if it would be cool to build a feat that allows you to trade rage rounds for rounds that pause the death clock on a one-for-one basis, usable only when unconscious.Or something.
The ranger gets endurance at 3rd level. Perhaps giving that feat to the barbarian at a comparable level would be thematic, and make the jump to diehard less painful. He only gets so many combat feats, and has to survive to high level.
The THF build of most barbarians begs for certain feats. They are the charge-first-ask-questions-later class, and benefit from getting clocked, then healed. Being the deadly, high-hp offensive fighter forces the enemy to deal with him, right now, before he crits the BBEG next round. Other party members can plan better, and use his distraction to lay down some coordinated hurt next round.
The 3.5 barbarian, at higher levels, was still a fearsome opponent, but he was the pre-meatshield meatshield. He could move anywhere, and hurt the BBEG, but not for long.
In concert with a fighter, or even a PF rogue, he has a great role. With clerics healing in 30' bursts, he may not just die so fast. A simple displacement spell does him a world of good.
Food for thought. Barbarians are way fun and way cool, overall. Group synergy is crucial to them, hit points and all.
Very true. Group synergy, and clerical love is really important to barbarians.
Of course, after reading some of the posts in this thread, I'm thinking of houseruling in my game that when the barbarian gets uncanny dodge, they get Endurance as a bonus feat, and when they get improved uncanny dodge, they get Diehard as a bonus feat. I don't see it harming the class balance, and who knows, it might keep someone at my table from complaining overmuch.
Very true. Group synergy, and clerical love is really important to barbarians.
Of course, after reading some of the posts in this thread, I'm thinking of houseruling in my game that when the barbarian gets uncanny dodge, they get Endurance as a bonus feat, and when they get improved uncanny dodge, they get Diehard as a bonus feat. I don't see it harming the class balance, and who knows, it might keep someone at my table from complaining overmuch.
Another couple possible house rules:
Giving Die-hard as a bonus feat is a good idea but it kind of devalues what is one of the few racial abilities the half orc has.
One more option... from oft-maligned source.
The Roll With It feat from Savage Species is a very useful way to make up for lack of armor. As a stacking source of DR 2/- per feat. It should also stack with any DR gained from barbarian class levels. Take the feat twice and you have DR 4/- and can at least negate the bonus of STR 18 or lower attackers.
Going to game now...will have report on Barbarian by the morrow.
As long as people are throwing up suggestions I may as well include my homebrew Barbarian Fix
I like it!
If rage was considered temporary hp, it would encourage the "It's clobberin' time!" style we all love about the barbarian (I always thought about him as the Ben from Fantastic 4 type).As it is, the Spring Attack + Vital Strike feats let him take advantage of his speed and acrobatics to give the monsters a good smacking without a full attack. Rage + the new Power Attack means it's gonna hurt! ;-)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Of course, after reading some of the posts in this thread, I'm thinking of houseruling in my game that when the barbarian gets uncanny dodge, they get Endurance as a bonus feat, and when they get improved uncanny dodge, they get Diehard as a bonus feat. I don't see it harming the class balance, and who knows, it might keep someone at my table from complaining overmuch.
As a house rule I think you could do this with Endurance, but I'd leave Diehard out of it. Knowing that I'm going to get it for free at 5th level means I'm not going to take it before then, when the feat is actually really useful to help low-level characters stay alive.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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One more option... from oft-maligned source.
The Roll With It feat from Savage Species is a very useful way to make up for lack of armor. As a stacking source of DR 2/- per feat. It should also stack with any DR gained from barbarian class levels. Take the feat twice and you have DR 4/- and can at least negate the bonus of STR 18 or lower attackers.
Part of my barbarian's schtick is that he is named "Ostog the Unslain" intentionally, as a sort of dare to the GM to make me change my moniker. He knows he is going to die in a fight and he keeps pressing the party bard to record his saga accurately.
He also has made it to 4th level without wearing a shred of armor.
I know I will not be able to keep this up forever, but a feat like the one you described sounds pretty good to me. I would strongly consider taking something like that.
@Erik: Look at Knockback and Unexpected Strike (AoO on entering Threat Area)
Even without convenient near-by cliff edges, you disrupt the enemies movement, meaning if they end up neading to move more than a standard move to attack who they wanted to (not just yourself), they can't get even a standard action off. It also works against 5' Steps, meaning potential Full Attacks can be averted to Standard Attacks.
There's definitely alot more potential in the Rage Powers then people seem to let on.
The Swim/Climb Powers seem most disappointing, especially given there isn't really very-high Swim DCs that would make a really high Swim Modifier relevant. I was surprised they didn't both offer a Climb/Swim Speed, allowing 5' Steps. But I could defintely see enough great powers to make going all the way to at least 16th worthwhile.
@Erik: Look at Knockback and Unexpected Strike (AoO on entering Threat Area)
Even without convenient near-by cliff edges, you disrupt the enemies movement, meaning if they end up neading to move more than a standard move to attack who they wanted to (not just yourself), they can't get even a standard action off. It also works against 5' Steps, meaning potential Full Attacks can be averted to Standard Attacks.There's definitely alot more potential in the Rage Powers then people seem to let on.
The Swim/Climb Powers seem most disappointing, especially given there isn't really very-high Swim DCs that would make a really high Swim Modifier relevant. I was surprised they didn't both offer a Climb/Swim Speed, allowing 5' Steps. But I could defintely see enough great powers to make going all the way to at least 16th worthwhile.
I agree, seems like people look at the weakest rage powers and shrug off them all as weak, there are some solid powers in there that are equivalent to or in some cases better than feats.
I like the knock off cliff combo... adventures need more cliffs to knock things off.
@Erik: Look at Knockback and Unexpected Strike (AoO on entering Threat Area)
Even without convenient near-by cliff edges, you disrupt the enemies movement, meaning if they end up neading to move more than a standard move to attack who they wanted to (not just yourself), they can't get even a standard action off. It also works against 5' Steps, meaning potential Full Attacks can be averted to Standard Attacks.There's definitely alot more potential in the Rage Powers then people seem to let on.
The Swim/Climb Powers seem most disappointing, especially given there isn't really very-high Swim DCs that would make a really high Swim Modifier relevant. I was surprised they didn't both offer a Climb/Swim Speed, allowing 5' Steps. But I could defintely see enough great powers to make going all the way to at least 16th worthwhile.I agree, seems like people look at the weakest rage powers and shrug off them all as weak, there are some solid powers in there that are equivalent to or in some cases better than feats.
I like the knock off cliff combo... adventures need more cliffs to knock things off.
Another I've noted, is that some of the posters seem to be looking at rage as if its something you can only do in combat. But with them breaking rage down into rounds, its not as big of a deal to pop rage for a couple rounds for an out of combat reason.
For examples:
The party is trying to get through a barred gate/door. Its to tough to break down, and pretty resistant to being forced. Wala, the barbarian rages, uses Strength Surge, and opens it with relative ease.
The party is trying to cross a raging river, and has an NPC they are transporting, while most fo the characters can make the swim checks, none can make it burdened by the extra weight of the npc. The barbarian can rage and use Raging Swimmer to boost his swim check to the point he makes it with no difficulty. Same with Raging Climber as well.
Personally, I think its pretty cool that with rage powers, they gave rage more out of combat uses, without forcing them to sacrifice large amounts of combat effectiveness.
The party is trying to cross a raging river, and has an NPC they are transporting, while most fo the characters can make the swim checks, none can make it burdened by the extra weight of the npc. The barbarian can rage and use Raging Swimmer to boost his swim check to the point he makes it with no difficulty. Same with Raging Climber as well.
Heh, I find it funny that you chose the oft pointed to 'worst' rage powers. To be honest I find them pretty weak also. My issue isn't that they are non-combat powers but that they are too situational and even in those situations don't really shine.
Consider "Raging Leaper" at 5th level you get a +5 to jump checks. A wizard of comparable level can cast jump and get a +20 and the benefit lasts for 5 minutes not a single round. The 10th level barbarian gets a boring +10 to jump while the 10th level wizard gets +30 at 9th.
Climbing and Swimming suffer similarly and ultimately are tasks that generally last for longer than a single round. All of these powers are weak at low levels where the bonus is trivial at higher levels its more likely you will have a caster to solve a lot of these issues. Consider your swimmer. He gets in a fix and uses his rage power to avoid drowning, now he has to continue raging until he gets to shore or he becomes fatigued and takes further penalties until he reaches shore.
Maybe just roll them all into one rage power and have an exception where the the benefit lasts for 1 minute per rage round burned.
Frenzied Athlete (Ex): The barbarian can go into a frenzy while performing athletic feats. While in the frenzy the barbarian adds her level as an enhancement bonus on all Climb checks, Swim checks, and Acrobatics skill checks made to jump. When making a jump in this way, the barbarian is always considered to have a running start.
Special: For every round of rage burned the barbarian gains this benefit for 1 minute. The barbarian is fatigued as usual when the activity is over.
The party is trying to cross a raging river, and has an NPC they are transporting, while most fo the characters can make the swim checks, none can make it burdened by the extra weight of the npc. The barbarian can rage and use Raging Swimmer to boost his swim check to the point he makes it with no difficulty. Same with Raging Climber as well.Heh, I find it funny that you chose the oft pointed to 'worst' rage powers. To be honest I find them pretty weak also. My issue isn't that they are non-combat powers but that they are too situational and even in those situations don't really shine.
Consider "Raging Leaper" at 5th level you get a +5 to jump checks. A wizard of comparable level can cast jump and get a +20 and the benefit lasts for 5 minutes not a single round. The 10th level barbarian gets a boring +10 to jump while the 10th level wizard gets +30 at 9th.
Climbing and Swimming suffer similarly and ultimately are tasks that generally last for longer than a single round. All of these powers are weak at low levels where the bonus is trivial at higher levels its more likely you will have a caster to solve a lot of these issues. Consider your swimmer. He gets in a fix and uses his rage power to avoid drowning, now he has to continue raging until he gets to shore or he becomes fatigued and takes further penalties until he reaches shore.
Maybe just roll them all into one rage power and have an exception where the the benefit lasts for 1 minute per rage round burned.
Frenzied Athlete (Ex): The barbarian can go into a frenzy while performing athletic feats. While in the frenzy the barbarian adds her level as an enhancement bonus on all Climb checks, Swim checks, and Acrobatics skill checks made to jump. When making a jump in this way, the barbarian is always considered to have a running start.
Special: For every round of rage burned the barbarian gains this benefit for 1 minute. The barbarian is fatigued as usual when the activity is over.
...
Eh, I was trying to look at the bright side of it. As far as the bonus goes, considering a barbarians (usually) higher strength, I don't mind the discrepancy, although as you said, the duration does leave on a little wanting.