Has anyone playtested it yet? It looks pretty awful on paper to compared to the other melee classes, but I would see results from other gamers.
Has anyone playtested it yet? It looks pretty awful on paper to compared to the other melee classes, but I would see results from other gamers.
I have not playtested it yet. But I did notice one nice bit of change from the beta that makes them interesting.
Two rage powers, Knockback, and strength surge. They now are stack-able!
So you can literally play golf with your victims.
"Fore!" anyone?
I am playing a-now PF barbarian in my monthly game. I will post my experiences with it as they come up(I'm playing this Sunday), but last time I checked there was another thread that came up on this very subject- I haven't seen it in some time though. Look around, I'm sure you'll find it as well as other's experiences.
I am playing a-now PF barbarian in my monthly game. I will post my experiences with it as they come up(I'm playing this Sunday), but last time I checked there was another thread that came up on this very subject- I haven't seen it in some time though. Look around, I'm sure you'll find it as well as other's experiences.
I saw a theoretical thread, but nothing that was actually used in a game. I did search, but I came up with nothing. I will be looking forward to your post.
I am playing a-now PF barbarian in my monthly game. I will post my experiences with it as they come up(I'm playing this Sunday), but last time I checked there was another thread that came up on this very subject- I haven't seen it in some time though. Look around, I'm sure you'll find it as well as other's experiences.I saw a theoretical thread, but nothing that was actually used in a game. I did search, but I came up with nothing. I will be looking forward to your post.
Unfortunately I would normally play a barbarain, but as it turns out, I am actually going to try a cleric.
Barbarians didn't lose anything from 3.5, except for the change in the rage per day that is now rounds of rage per day.
In my experience, the fact that you can rage for one or two rounds then save your "charges" for later encounters make this modular approach appealing and gives the barbarian at low level more options (rage to demolish a door, no-brainer to activate your rage even if you think a tougher encounter is around the corner because you'll still have some uses left, etc.)
The only arguement that would hold is that the class didn't receive as much as other classes in terms of powerups, like the paladin and the fighter. And the rage powers, which seems a little weak, could have been that field leveling class ability.
Upon inspection, very few rage powers are worthwhile. Most only amount to a fraction of a feat benefit. While few add very weird complexity to the system as a whole (superstition power for exemple, where you have to ask the buffing cleric to keep track of possible saving throw (harmless) which you usually don't care for at all).
Barbarians are still killing machines at low level from my in-play experience, but I think they lose their edge as the other classes gain more benefits from their class abilities.
Barbarians didn't lose anything from 3.5, except for the change in the rage per day that is now rounds of rage per day.
In my experience, the fact that you can rage for one or two rounds then save your "charges" for later encounters make this modular approach appealing and gives the barbarian at low level more options (rage to demolish a door, no-brainer to activate your rage even if you think a tougher encounter is around the corner because you'll still have some uses left, etc.)
The only arguement that would hold is that the class didn't receive as much as other classes in terms of powerups, like the paladin and the fighter. And the rage powers, which seems a little weak, could have been that field leveling class ability.
Upon inspection, very few rage powers are worthwhile. Most only amount to a fraction of a feat benefit. While few add very weird complexity to the system as a whole (superstition power for exemple, where you have to ask the buffing cleric to keep track of possible saving throw (harmless) which you usually don't care for at all).
Barbarians are still killing machines at low level from my in-play experience, but I think they lose their edge as the other classes gain more benefits from their class abilities.
I generally have to agree. Sense weapon's training now applies to combat maneuvers, I have to wonder if a fighter can do them better, even if the barbarain has the strength surge ability.
However knock back is nice, the others don't look too... beneficial. The speed boost is enhancement, which makes it next to useless as you will want to get a magic item that can do that instead of using a rage power selection, and a lot of the abilities do a measly +1 or +2 bonus to ONE attack of damage or hit, which does little to one attack, and is by far less than useful. When I played beta, which had almost identical abilities, I got knock back, strength surge, and just racked up the DR abilities. All the others just seem too trivial in comparison.
I played a barbarian during the beta and she really cranked out the damage. It's hard to say whether the fighter is better (at dishing out damage now), I think it depends on the application you are looking for. If you want mobility and high damage/ round the barbarian is still appealing. There are also a few solid defensive options in there. Nothing huge but just adding an extra couple points of DR is pretty worthwhile. Some of the powers like clear mind are also pretty solid. There don't seem to be a lot of great offensive rage powers but the barbarian was pretty good offensively to start with.
As far as compared to the power ups for the other martial classes... the barbarian was the strongest martial class in 3.5, I think it's appropriate the other classes got boosted a little more.
I want to know if it still does more damage than a fighter. If not I see not reason to play one as written
"If a barbarian falls unconscious, her rage immediately ends, placing her in peril of death."
Maybe this line is new but the rage ending barbarian death thing is not new, it was there in 3.5 ("The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal.").
True, but you didn't get ganked by dropping below 0 hps nearly as bad. You could continue to let your rage go while unconscious and wait for someone to heal you."If a barbarian falls unconscious, her rage immediately ends, placing her in peril of death."Maybe this line is new but the rage ending barbarian death thing is not new, it was there in 3.5 ("The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal.").
There was discussion about this in the WotC forums back in the day and it was debated whether you could rage while unconscious. If your GM let you do it then that's fine, many GMs felt raging while unconscious was impossible. I never had rage induced death (or it's potential) so never had to make that call under 3.5.
I would rule rage ended when ya went nappy nap. As would most folks I know really. To me it's Kinda silly to think you rage while knocked out
I want to know if it still does more damage than a fighter. If not I see not reason to play one as written
Dunno, I've never sat down and looked at a class with this in mind. I know the gap isn't huge like it used to be. Probably close enough you can just say F* it and think about what class you pick from a roleplaying perspective instead.
Paladin has some huge power ups with smite so if you are facing mostly evil creatures that might be the way to go.
I would rule rage ended when ya went nappy nap. As would most folks I know really. To me it's Kinda silly to think you rage while knocked out
Well, your body may still be pumping the adrenaline and pain killers around when your brain is out of action...
point but I would still rule it ended.
point but I would still rule it ended.And it becomes DM fiat. A rules call yes, but its now in the realm of house rules and if that works for you, then by all means do so. In a Living Campaign, which Pathfinder Society is, cannot be propped up by house rules. Its RAW whether you like it or not. Its the only way to be fair when you have hundreds to thousands of players.
Raw is strict rules, You follow straight Raw silly things happen. RAW does not sya you need to eat either. And yes in something LIke org play I could rule it so. Just as I could rule no paladins with LE gods. Even if by RAW ya can have em. Raw can be abused in way it was never ment to be used
You would be able to go over my head later and get a ruling but table calls are made, sometimes they are good ones, sometimes they are not. But table calls are how ya get FAQ's and updated ettra[or how ever it's spelled}
point but I would still rule it ended.And it becomes DM fiat. A rules call yes, but its now in the realm of house rules and if that works for you, then by all means do so. In a Living Campaign, which Pathfinder Society is, cannot be propped up by house rules. Its RAW whether you like it or not. Its the only way to be fair when you have hundreds to thousands of players.
Erm.... I could care less what living greyhawk ruled, their rules applied to their organized play and had a lot of things that deviated from the Core Rules. Take a look at polymorph for example. Seeker isn't the only one to rule that way because it's a rational reading of the rulebook.
well let me put it like this. Ya get knocked out, then well ya get knocked out. As far as I can tell they just clarified something that was being abused because of poor wording.
He really is no more prone to death then he was before. He is taking a nap , prone in a battle. Not much diff then the fighter going down like that. Or the Bard, or the wizard. You know your extra HP are gone. Thats part of being a barb ya deal or play something else that better suits your expectations .
Yes I in fact did. Just not the way you wanted. And yes I play this class and have zero issue with how it works now, much , much better then 3.5 YMMV
At Gencon, I felt low level Barbarians were incredibly powerful, especially with 2H weapons. They regularily hit for 13-24 damage and our 1st level Barbarian crit several times for 30-44 damage. That's with a x2 crit weapon.
They also had:
1) Superior HP. I think our 4th level Barbarian had upward of 60 HP (maybe while raging). Compare that to our iconic fighter, Valeros, who has only 36 HP.
2) Superior speed, which meant EVERYTHING in several scenarios. My cleric was so slow, I wasn't even able to cast a single spell or do a single point of damage at the end of Tide of Morning. I was surrounded by rogues and Barbarians the entire Con, they made me feel slow.
3) Acrobatics: Again, nothing can stop these guys, they go wherever they want to (which can sometimes be bad).
4) Reasonable AC. Our 4th level Barbarian had an AC of 21 before raging.
Compared to rogues and fighters and every other class, at levels lower than 6, they dominate. I can't speak of later levels because I haven't playtested them.
I don't know, they seemed pretty good to me.
Okay, let me come at this from a different angle here.
Do you feel a character should be more prone to death, to the point of nearly guaranteeing it in any combat that provides at minimum equal EL, than any other character for using a class ability that s/he is strongly encouraged to use?
I would suggest finding a DM that doesn't try to kill players. Barbarians tend to have more HP than other party members, and thats before raging. If the DM is going to routinely drop a raging barbarian to -1 or worse, how the hell do any of the other classes survive?
At Gencon, I felt low level Barbarians were incredibly powerful, especially with 2H weapons. They regularily hit for 13-24 damage and our 1st level Barbarian crit several times for 30-44 damage. That's with a x2 crit weapon.
They also had:
1) Superior HP. I think our 4th level Barbarian had upward of 60 HP (maybe while raging). Compare that to our iconic fighter, Valeros, who has only 36 HP.
2) Superior speed, which meant EVERYTHING in several scenarios. My cleric was so slow, I wasn't even able to cast a single spell or do a single point of damage at the end of Tide of Morning. I was surrounded by rogues and Barbarians the entire Con, they made me feel slow.
3) Acrobatics: Again, nothing can stop these guys, they go wherever they want to (which can sometimes be bad).
4) Reasonable AC. Our 4th level Barbarian had an AC of 21 before raging.
Compared to rogues and fighters and every other class, at levels lower than 6, they dominate. I can't speak of later levels because I haven't playtested them.
I don't know, they seemed pretty good to me.
How did a 4th level barbarian get an AC of 21? The AC is one of the main reasons I am hesitant about playing one.
Is this really a problem? In order to get to -1 hit points (and then fall unconscious and die) the high level, raging barbarian has taken as many hit points as it would take to kill him if he wasnt raging. In other words - his fury has kept him going beyond normal human limits and he's stayed fighting instead of falling over unconscious.
It just means a raging barbarian on 4 hit points has to get healing urgently. Just the same as if he wasnt raging and was on -10 or something - at least during those last few rounds he has the advantage of being conscious.
Okay, let me come at this from a different angle here.
Do you feel a character should be more prone to death, to the point of nearly guaranteeing it in any combat that provides at minimum equal EL, than any other character for using a class ability that s/he is strongly encouraged to use?
All I was pointing out is that the rule isn't really different from 3.5, just clarified. The 3.5 rule strongly hints at it but doesn't come out and say it, Paizo just clarified it as far as I'm concerned.
My point of contention is that the barbarian isn't going to get to high level, at least not without a dedicated healer who tends to him for entire combats.Is this really a problem? In order to get to -1 hit points (and then fall unconscious and die) the high level, raging barbarian has taken as many hit points as it would take to kill him if he wasnt raging. In other words - his fury has kept him going beyond normal human limits and he's stayed fighting instead of falling over unconscious.
It just means a raging barbarian on 4 hit points has to get healing urgently. Just the same as if he wasnt raging and was on -10 or something - at least during those last few rounds he has the advantage of being conscious.
I'm obviously missing something, because I dont see it like that at all. Do you mean a level 3 barbarian (for example) is more likely to die if he uses his rage than if he doesnt? Or do you mean that the benefit of raging is not as great as the benefits the other classes get and since he's in the frontline he's therefore going to die young?
To answer your earlier question:
"Okay, let me come at this from a different angle here.
Do you feel a character should be more prone to death, to the point of nearly guaranteeing it in any combat that provides at minimum equal EL, than any other character for using a class ability that s/he is strongly encouraged to use? "
I would say he's not more prone to death from using his class power. If he uses rage, he stays conscious after taking damage which would otherwise knock him out. He's only going to die if he takes as much damage as would have killed him anyway - his power has still made him better off than it would have if he didnt use it.
Taking damage so that you have reach -1hp DOES NOT mean you have been killed,
It means you are bleeding (until making a CON check) and unconscious (bar Diehard).
If you subtract the Rage HPs when you drop Rage, instead of a situation where at worst you were SLOWLY bleeding out and could be revived with a simple Cure Spell or Channel Energy (and had a decent change to stabilize yourself anyways), you are faced with a situation where you can instantly be put at negative HPs BEYOND your CON Score. Up to around 8th level or so, the Rage HPs do not total more than your CON Score, but past that, full usage of Rage HPs becomes lethal beyond the point of Cure/Channel Healing.
The issue is only apparent at mid-high levels (once Rage HPs > CON Score), but is lethal bar Resurrection-type magic. (A new spell allowing *1* more round to apply Curative magic does exist, but that assumes your party's healer is a cleric with that spell memorized and they are able to get to you within 1 round)
Taking damage so that you have reach -1hp DOES NOT mean you have been killed,
It means you are bleeding (until making a CON check) and unconscious (bar Diehard).If you subtract the Rage HPs when you drop Rage, instead of a situation where at worst you were SLOWLY bleeding out and could be revived with a simple Cure Spell or Channel Energy (and had a decent change to stabilize yourself anyways), you are faced with a situation where you can instantly be put at negative HPs BEYOND your CON Score. Up to around 8th level or so, the Rage HPs do not total more than your CON Score, but past that, full usage of Rage HPs becomes lethal beyond the point of Cure/Channel Healing.
As I say, I suspect I'm missing something, but I would think that the reason you're in big trouble when rage ceases and you go from -1 to -17 or something is that you've taken 17 hit points more than your maximum. If you hadnt been raging - you'd be dead too, you just wouldn't have had the extra rounds of action that the raging barbarian gets.
I suspect a breastplate, high Dexterity (16-18) with completely dumped mental stats, and a buff of some sort; likely Barkskin.
How did a 4th level barbarian get an AC of 21? The AC is one of the main reasons I am hesitant about playing one.
The breastplate and the dex(assuming it is a 16) gives s 19AC. A shield would push it to a 21, but then the barbarian is no longer using a THW. He might as well be a fighter at that point.
I just checked and the poster said he(his barbarian buddy) was using a THW so no shield was possible. My shenanigans sense is tingling.
Barbarians have death wishes. It's part and parcel of the motif, and the mechanics reflect that beautifully. Without a lot of luck, or a dedicated and watchful healer, or a solid Wisdom score, or some metagame decision-making, their very nature is to fight until they fall, then fall hard. And this is appropriate! Iconic even! A barbarian's death can be as much the stuff of legend as another character's entire career. Casey Jones: steel-drivin' barbarian.
There are (now more than ever, Moment of Clarity much?) good roleplaying excuses for letting a barbarian be cautious about how far he'll drop if he gets knocked out. And on the flip side, it's pretty fun (and again, entirely appropriate) to play one who just doesn't care. The amount of damage you can take without dying is more than any other class; certainly enough that letting yourself pass that point is either a decision or an oversight, entirely your own doing, not an issue with class design.
Now excuse me, I have to go build a barbarian.
Edit: regarding the 21 AC, it could be legit. +1 armor at 4th level is not unheard of, and Dodge is an option. Alternately, that may have been the total after Shield of Faith?
Edit 2: Or, halfling. RAR!
I suspect a breastplate, high Dexterity (16-18) with completely dumped mental stats, and a buff of some sort; likely Barkskin.
How did a 4th level barbarian get an AC of 21? The AC is one of the main reasons I am hesitant about playing one.
The breastplate and the dex(assuming it is a 16) gives s 19AC. A shield would push it to a 21, but then the barbarian is no longer using a THW. He might as well be a fighter at that point.
I just checked and the poster said he(his barbarian buddy) was using a THW so no shield was possible. My shenanigans sense is tingling.
It's not completely unreasonable to have a Ring of Protection +1 and an Amulet of Natural Armor +1 by level 4...
I think crying shenanigans might be overstating things a bit?
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I suspect a breastplate, high Dexterity (16-18) with completely dumped mental stats, and a buff of some sort; likely Barkskin.
How did a 4th level barbarian get an AC of 21? The AC is one of the main reasons I am hesitant about playing one.
The breastplate and the dex(assuming it is a 16) gives s 19AC. A shield would push it to a 21, but then the barbarian is no longer using a THW. He might as well be a fighter at that point.
I just checked and the poster said he(his barbarian buddy) was using a THW so no shield was possible. My shenanigans sense is tingling.
Nothing a Potion of Shield of Faith couldn't do at first level, +2 Deflection.
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A 4th level barbarian could quite reasonably have a +1 heavy (darkwood) shield and a +1 breastplate, for a basic AC of 20. Even a Dex of 12 would bring this to 21. For fun, I've statted up a 7th level barb with AC 24 (22 raging); he has plenty of wealth-per-level gold left for other gear.
Unconsciousness: this is why Halforcs still make good barbarians. Also why every barb should have a couple of healing potions for emergencies, and why the Renewed Vigour power is a shade better than it looks. Finally, it's worth noting that Diehard is a better feat choice than it used to be, particularly for a barbarian with high Con.
Plenty of options for avoiding death-by-raging-unconsciousness.
Barbarians have death wishes. It's part and parcel of the motif, and the mechanics reflect that beautifully. Without a lot of luck, or a dedicated and watchful healer, or a solid Wisdom score, or some metagame decision-making, their very nature is to fight until they fall, then fall hard. And this is appropriate! Iconic even! A barbarian's death can be as much the stuff of legend as another character's entire career. Casey Jones: steel-drivin' barbarian.
There are (now more than ever, Moment of Clarity much?) good roleplaying excuses for letting a barbarian be cautious about how far he'll drop if he gets knocked out. And on the flip side, it's pretty fun (and again, entirely appropriate) to play one who just doesn't care. The amount of damage you can take without dying is more than any other class; certainly enough that letting yourself pass that point is either a decision or an oversight, entirely your own doing, not an issue with class design.
Now excuse me, I have to go build a barbarian.
Edit: regarding the 21 AC, it could be legit. +1 armor at 4th level is not unheard of, and Dodge is an option. Alternately, that may have been the total after Shield of Faith?
Edit 2: Or, halfling. RAR!
+1. If you want to play a character who survives to level 20, play an archery ranger or a cleric or something. When you play a barbarian, you have to accept the fact that you're likely to get killed at some point -- but that your death will be GLORIOUS, covered in the blood and surrounded by the corpses of your enemies, a death that bards will sing of for generations.
And this is my halfling barbarian. She rocks. :)
Yes, I was a bit hasty. I was assuming the classic barbarian build of high con, hit strength, and maybe a 14 dex. I also never had the luxury of the potential magic items mentioned at 4th level, not more than one of them anyway.
Barbarians have death wishes. It's part and parcel of the motif, and the mechanics reflect that beautifully. Without a lot of luck, or a dedicated and watchful healer, or a solid Wisdom score, or some metagame decision-making, their very nature is to fight until they fall, then fall hard. And this is appropriate! Iconic even! A barbarian's death can be as much the stuff of legend as another character's entire career. Casey Jones: steel-drivin' barbarian.
Fortunately, right about the time the barbarians enter the land of no return clerics get "Breath of Life" which lets them heal 5d8+level and possibly revive someone who died in the past round.
Also barbarians can get that rage power that lets them self heal without an AoO which is good.
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"If a barbarian falls unconscious, her rage immediately ends, placing her in peril of death."
True to a fault since the time most characters, not just barbarians, fall unconscious is when they go below 0 hit points. Lets look at the math of a barbarian with a 16 Constitution that gets knocked to -1 hit point.
And that's just the bare minimum for getting knocked unconscious. How often are characters lucky enough to get hit to exactly -1?
Its realistic that a barbarian can't rage while knocked out, but it kills the viability of the class past about 6th level.
I am playing a barbarian in James Jacob's bi-weekly Sandpoint campaign, and one work-around for this situation is the Die Hard feat. It's got Endurance as a prereq, so it's pretty expensive, but it does stave off unconsciousness for a bit, which is nice.
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"If a barbarian falls unconscious, her rage immediately ends, placing her in peril of death."
True to a fault since the time most characters, not just barbarians, fall unconscious is when they go below 0 hit points. Lets look at the math of a barbarian with a 16 Constitution that gets knocked to -1 hit point.
And that's just the bare minimum for getting knocked unconscious. How often are characters lucky enough to get hit to exactly -1?
Its realistic that a barbarian can't rage while knocked out, but it kills the viability of the class past about 6th level.
I am playing a barbarian in James Jacob's bi-weekly Sandpoint campaign, and one work-around for this situation is the Die Hard feat. It's got Endurance as a prereq, so it's pretty expensive, but it does stave off unconsciousness for a bit, which is nice.
Also, this won't work for every barbarian, and it's not as useful as the Diehard feat, but half-orc barbarians get an extra round of consciousness in which they can get healed when this happens, due to the half-orc ferocity racial ability.
Has anyone playtested it yet? It looks pretty awful on paper to compared to the other melee classes, but I would see results from other gamers.
Theres a character in my friday game who is a barbarian and he kicks butt. However this is largely in light of the fact that the fighter is making some weird sub-optimal two weapon fighting shield build and his main weapon is a magical gauntlet so...
Just from the way they're written in the book they seem fun and were definitely buffed from 3.5 which they needed to compete with the fighter. However the fighters were BUFFED SO FREAKING MUCH!!!! that the barbarian is still a very poor choice for min/maxers.
Upon reviewing the barbarian class, including it's class abilities and their respective level, I feel more convinced that the barbarian will end up like the 3.5 fighter. A class to dip into.
Take any other full BAB class. They are much more appealing. What's more, the barbarian's really nice abilities are front loaded in it's 2 or at best 5 first levels.
Look at the benefit from the first 2 levels :
increased speed.
rage ability
Uncanny dodge
rage power
The real kicker here is the rage ability. The rounds per day barely increase after the first level, and a mere feat provides the benefit of 3 levels worth of barbarian!!! The rage powers aren't that nice, as already pointed out, and a handful worth it aren't barbarian class level dependant (i.e. Knockback).
The rage ability doesn't scale till later levels, and starts out quite strong.
I forsee lots of barb2/full bab X and barb5/full bab Y for the improved uncanny dodge fans.
Grab your favorite rage power, and rage away from the class. UNLESS rage powers become a real incentive in the subsequent releases.