Hi all, I had two session now leading my players through adventure using full pathfinder rules. I am waiting for the book to arrive (I ordered it from amazon.com but I live in Europe :D) so I am using PRD + beta book for things like XP tables :)
I was using some monsters from 3.5e MM and 3.0e MM2.
My group has
Level 8 human fighter specializing in Greatswords. He has Vital Strike and Power Attack, Step Up and Stand Still and all the weapon feats he can have for his lvl (including Improved Critical). His equipment is not even that impressive, no +2 weapons (no special material) or armors, two +2 ability items, +2 ring, +1 amulet, +2 Cloak of Resistance and a Ring of Iron Will(gives the feat). AC in mid 20s, around 90+ hp, great attack and great damage.
Level 8 elf ranger with 22 Dex, favored enemies orc (1st choice) and humans (2nd choice), bow master, taken Improved precise shot at lvl 6, has all great archery feats except Imp. Crit., Vital Strike and Shot on the Run. Has a bear familiar but he forgot to use him in both sessions :D
He is evil but uses a lesser holy(as holy but damage is +1d6) +1 bow that he never activates :D Other items are of similar quality as the fighter above.
Level 8 half-orc monk that went Str route and in addition to standard monk feats has taken Improved Trip and Greater Trip (and has a ring that gives him Combat Reflexes feat). His HP is his weakest point, AC is also in mid 20s, but he can get it higher with Ki points (as you all know). Items of similar quality to other players.
Level 8 elf bard that went archery+buff party route. His damage is weaker then other party members and he misses some of the great feats that ranger has (manyshot and improved precise shot). He buffs the party with Good Hope before and Inspire Courage and Haste during combat. As lvl 8 he can activate songs as move action. Items of similar quality (best items are +2 bow and +2 ring of deflection).
1st session setup:
Woods:
Bard hiding near a group of 2 lvl 6 half-orc sorcerers and 2 lvl 3 orc barbarians (they were looking for him). Ranger scouts a bit ahead for others in the group and runs into these four trying to hide (the other 3 party members were leading a huge band of refugees that made a lot of noise) to ambush. He gets surprise and then initiative. He kills one half-orc. He and the bard fight alone for two rounds before other two arrive. The fight ends with the enemy doing exactly 7 damage to the party (one half-orc managed to fireball the fighter and the monk who both saved). Definitely not a CR 9 encounter. I ruled the situation was in favor of the party and gave them XP for the CR 8 encounter.
This was an error on my part since I forgot pathfinder considers NPC's CR with only class levels as their lvl-1.
2nd session setup (all in the same day):
1st encounter
Open square:
Party ran into two CR 8 flaming demons from 3.0e MM2, and babau (cr 6 demon from 3.5e MM). I ruled MM2 demons had DR 10/good and magic. The whole party had align weapon cast on them. Monk also got resist fire and fighter had an armor that gave him 5 fire resistance.
There was no surprise on both sides so initiative was rolled as normal. CR 8 demons got initiative but 1st managed to die before he got his turn again while the other died the round later. Babau appeared at the end of the 1st round by casting Darkness on the whole area to give everyone 20% miss chance (which in addition to demons only ranger and half-orc ignored due to feat/darkvision). Babau died in the 3rd round.
Altogether, a bit more difficult then the last encounter, but nearly worth CR 10.
2nd encounter
A underground 12x30 squares stone room with supporting pillars:
Party came from a 2 square corridor and was two troll zombies (I added to the the diseased template from the bestiary preview which in the ended turned out to be completely useless). They engaged them at the entrance to the room by waiting for them to come to them. In addition to those trolls 2 lvl 8 human priests with death and destruction domains (that were prebuffed with really long and 1 min per lvl spell) waited for them completely hiding behind pillars (party heard them but could not see them). Although the clerics were designed to be melee combat monsters (Vital Strike, Smite from destruction domain and Channel Smite) they really endangered the party by both using channel energy to damage them and heal themselves at the same time. As zombies were created by their Animate dead this was a CR 9 encounter, and the only one that was tough to the party (monk almost dies), rest were mostly left below 25% of their HP except for the fighter).
3nd encounter
Stone underground room a bit bigger then the last:
This one had a CR 9 demon from MM2 and 2 same CR 8 demons from MM2.
The party had a lvl 9 elf fighter/wizard/EK NPCs as help.
I gave the CR 9 demon DR 10/cold iron and magic which none had.
I also buffed the demons this time but keep their CR same (as last time they were really pathetic). I gave them 10-20 extra HP, +2 to attack and saves. CR9 demon also got a +4 to AC bonus (he had 25 ac which everyone went through easily; for comparison clerics in the last encounter had 29 ac and that didn't save them much).
Elf npc got lucky and managed to crit one of the cr 8 demons while power attacking, arcane striking and vital striking with his greatsword and kill it instantly (it failed the dc 15 death from massive damage save).
The other two demons got killed in next 2-3 rounds without actually endangering the party in any real way. The CR 9 demon has a negative level draining gaze (DC 17 will save) which was failed only once in the whole encounter. He also tried to use his suggestion spell-like against couple of party members which also failed.
Altogether this supposedly CR 10-11 encounter was pathetic.
Well what to conclude from all of this.
Party power level went up drastically in pathfinder full game?
3.0 MM2 and 3.5e MM monsters are completely underpowered for 3P games?
I managed to challenge them only with premade NPCs that were completely prebuffed and used probably an illegal tactic (even possible two illegal tactics)?
I suck as a DM in full Pathfinder (I rarely had these problems in 3.5e)?
This game cannot be played without Pathfinder bestiary?
Biggest problems I ran into were Vital Strike doing just too much damage in combination with Power Attack and two-handed weapons.
Improved Precise Shot completely ignoring concealment and cover. Feat by itself for me is a bit too powerful, but giving it to rangers at lvl 6 is really too much.
After this I feel that to challenge the party I need to start using flying, improved invisibility cheese tactics?!
Or to give encounters that are challenging if the party has good rolls or TPK on their bad day.
D&D combat used to last 3-4 rounds, now it feels more like 2-3.
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1. MM2 monsters are ... problematic. It is a 3.0 book, so first of all you need to use a conversion booklet (available somewhere at Wizards website), and best just avoid it altogether and stick with MM3 and above (which are full 3.5 books).
Also, monsters from later splatbooks are usually stronger than monsters of equal CR from earlier sources, due to the power creep.
2. PFRPG characters are stronger than 3.5 equivalents (more feats, skills, class abilities).
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I think there were mistakes made on both sides of the table, but that could be because you were using a mix of rules. Before we further evaluate your sessions we need a little more information to make sure you were doing things correctly.
Firstly were your clerics doing both healing and damage at the same time or was one healing while the other damaged? In final Pathfinder you can only do one or the other so first option would be wrong while the second would be correct.
Second what was the level and classes of the npc elf as well as how was the damage he made dealt (as in was that all in one hit)? What were the hit points of the demon? I'm trying to find the rules on mass damage in the book (not indexed), but I'm thinking you might have done it wrong, either based on the amount of damage calculated or how it was applied but will know more once you've clarified the requested info and I've found the rules.
The main thing is that everyone had fun though. If that happened then it's a success regardless.
Edit: I did the math for the mass damage and for the most part it works out. Here's what I came up with and it might be off just a little, but not enough to matter I think.
This is assuming that the NPC elf attacking is level 8.
4d6 (great sword 2d6 base damage x2 crit)
2d6 (Vital Strike as it is not multiplied in a critical.) (Note that VS requires +6 base attack)
+ 3 x str mod after crit (not this includes 1.5 for two handed x crit)
+ 2 from Arcane Strike after crit
+ 12 (possibly 18) from Power Attack after crit
So total would be at least 6d6+14+(3 x str) and assuming 18 str at first level and adding +2 for 4th and 8th level ending at 20 str at level eight final damage would be:
6d6+15+14 or 6d6+29
Then with the average roll of a d6 being 3.5 or new total would be:
21+29 = 50Mass damage requires at least 50 HPs in one hit, so assuming average it is definitely possible for mass damage as long as the levels check out for the NPC. I mention this as Arcane Strike requires at least one level of arcane caster which will not give a bonus to base attack. Which would mean that to get the +6 bonus for Vital Strike the NPC would have to be at least a 5/3 fighter type/bard. There might be other combinations but that’s the quickest for the feats listed.
NPC was lvl 9 (1 lvl fighter, 5 lvl wizard, 3 lvl EK with caster lvl 7).
Had 16 strength and bull's strength buff, alter self to give himself additional +2 str (for a total of 24 str), weapon spec as well as using power attack, vital strike, arcane strike and had a +2 greatsword. He was also under effect from the party bard's Inspire Courage (additional +2 to damage).
His crit was 4d6 + 2x10(str) + 2x6(weapon+spec+inspire) +2x6(power attack) + 2d6+6+6(vital strike+weapon+spec+inspire + power attack)
Total 6d6+56. More then 50 damage limit for death from massive damage. Monsters normally have around 60 hp but I gave them about 20 extra for that fight.
And yes, the clerics did both heal and damage with the same application of Channel Negative Energy. At the time I thought that the limit of heal or damage is only for Channel Positive Energy as this is normally used to heal while negative cannot heal characters, only undead. This is the one possible exploit I mentioned. I only figured this out after the session.
1st session was 0 challenge for them and I know by their comments afterward they wished there was a real fight there.
2nd session I think they did have fun, but I know they saw the fights as breeze through except the priests fight (which would have been same if I didn't misinterpret the rules like I did).
NPC was lvl 9 (1 lvl fighter, 5 lvl wizard, 3 lvl EK with caster lvl 7).
His crit was 4d6 + 2x10(str) + 2x6(weapon+spec+inspire) +2x6(power attack) + 2d6+6+6(vital strike+weapon+spec+inspire + power attack)
I think the above bold area is in error.
Edit: Ninjaed most excellently by Tholas. :-)
Actually by my reading (and I know this is contested area) everything that is normally multiplied by a crit expect Strenght mod is added as extra damage when using Vital Strike. Even the examples of weapon abilities says Flaming, not weapons enchantment. And Weapon Specialization, weapon training and Morale bonuses are not weapon abilities or precision based attacks. They are not a strength bonus either.
Yes, but the feat text is really confusing and the examples lead you to think otherwise (they are same as the critical hit explanation).
Also it has been proved that some previews had incorrect info.
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Yes, but the feat text is really confusing and the examples lead you to think otherwise (they are same as the critical hit explanation).
Also it has been proved that some previews had incorrect info.
Mainly in regards that Vital strike is a standard action, not an attack option that can be used on the charge.
Crits only multiply damage dice and static bonuses. Vital Strike only has you roll weapon dice twice thrice or four times, and add them together. Nothing else is considered weapon dice, unless those dice come from wielding a weapon of that type. That is to say, the base dice that the weapon deals is the weapon dice, not the enchanted goodies upon it.
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I will also chime in that VS does not multiply during a critical...
I do not use massive damage rules, it is FAR too easy to cause enough damage to trigger massive damage.
NOW: if someone decided to make a called shot for the head or heart possibly, I might allow it since they take a penalty and that would emulate the head shot nicely.
It appears that the group you have is directed at inflicting damage.
BBEGs I always put at 100% HP when facing PFRPG characters.
Their minions I put at 80%.
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Thanks for posting your experiences! A few comments to add along with some of the other posters:
Session #1, Encounter 1 (CR 8)
An average challenge but two casters form the bulk of the CR, the two Barb3 should have done some damage to the lower AC Bard and Ranger initially with their Rage and one Rage power. Were the sorcerer's and their barbarian's buffed as they were preparing for the ambush? Anyhow, nothing we didn't see in previous editions given softy casters versus a party really, though the low damage is still surprising but likely due to simply getting lucky.
Session #2, Encounter 1 (CR 10+)
It seems the party is very well prepared for this encounter with Align Weapon (cast from an NPC since no party members has access to this spell) on all member's weapons and Fire Resistance buffs. With this kind of foreknowledge and aid from an NPC cleric can you really expect the encounter to be as challenging as its CR suggests?
Minor note, the 3.5 Conversion Document for Pathfinder states all outsiders receive +1 HP per Hit Die.
Session #2, Encounter 2 (CR 9)
As far as I can tell there is no "Diseased" Template in the Bestiary Preview or the Bonus Bestiary when I checked. Also in the Conversion Document it states that Undead are reduced by +2HP per Hit Die and use Cha for their bonus HP and Fort saves but doubtful if this would have made any difference here however.
As has already been pointed out the encounter might not have been quite so tough if Channel Energy was used per the Final PF core rules.
Session #2, Encounter 3
Again, the party has been buffed by an NPC Cleric with Align Weapon spell. Despite casting a total of 8 2nd level spells now at a duration of 1 min/level. With this kind of Aid again the two CR 8 demons are much easier than their CR to handle for the group. The Lvl 9 Eldritch Knight NPC also contributed in making this encounter much easier.
It looks like once you have the group calculate Vital Strike as per the core rules this should be fine.
Summary
All in all it looks like more a use of certain preparation and buff spells along with houseruled channel energy that seem to be causing your group to experience the swingy-ness of the CRs than anything else.
As for the other rules and feat snafus, no worries. All of us are adjusting to the changes and new stuff so it'll take time to get used to them all and use them as their meant to.
I have to ask though, did the group have an NPC cleric or two along for the ride or did the Bard take up all the healing slack? Was a Wand of Align Weapon also used by the Bard possibly?
I sorta agree with your point about the Beastiary. I wouldn't say it's unplayable without it, but things would go one heck of a lot smoother.
Not disagreeing that PFRPG is a powerup for characters, but don't forget massive damage is an optional rule now.
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Good point about the NPCs buffing and such. I make it a point of limiting NPCs to support roles if they're helping the party. Clerics focus on healing and not buffing and fighter types might hang back and protect the cleric/wizard until absolutely needed by the other fighter(s). If the NPCs are doing all the buffing then bottom line is they're doing the work for the players. The group needs to approach the encounter with the view of "we need to figure out how to work around our weaknesses" and not having an player cleric in the party is a weakness in my opinion. I wouldn't rake them over the coals for not having a player cleric, but at the same time I'm not going to let the NPCs carry the load. I think the encounter challenge rating will increase if the NPCs take a smaller role in the party.
Another thing to remember is that a party doesn't have to fight in every encounter. If they can complete the objective for the encounter without fighting they can earn almost, if not all, of the experience the encounter has to offer. Granted in your scenarios demons aren't known for talking, but there might be other ways around them. Too be safe I always leave an out if I realize the encounter might be too much for the party; either an escape route, the enemy is willing to grant quarter if they leave, or something distracts/draws them away.
Just a few things to think about for next time.
S1, E1: Sorcerers had Mage Armor and Shield cast on them. Barbarians were buffed with Bull's Strength. One of the Sorcerers should have probably cast Mirror Image as well before the fight but I roleplayed them as cocky as this was their first (and last) really though fight :)
As I said, I forgot the CR is calculated differently for enemies with only class levels. I was planning to have this as a CR 9 encounter. All of these guys would have been one level higher.
S2, E1: Clerics cast align weapon on them and resist fire on one of them (monk). But PCs went on alone to the fight.
S2, E2: There is not Diseased but there are alternative zombie version, and I used the one with diseased ability. Anyways, none failed a single Fort save. If I knew that Channel Energy does not work like that (and I made a mistake by giving the clerics Vital Strike that they could only get at lvl 9) I would have made a bit different encounter setting.
So what does that Death domain ability do if another priest channels negative energy to damage all living in the radius? Does he also get damages (it looks stupid to me that he gets damaged by it although it does not heal him)?
S2, E3: Well, I let them do all 3 encounters with one casting of Align weapon (it lasted 5 min on each of them). They didn't lose time as they knew where they were going and they didn't stop to check or loot bodies. And as you read healing was mostly not needed so no rounds lost doing that. I knew EK would be a big help, but he was here more from RP reasons as he asked them to help his people clear the demon threat and it would be right if they fought alone and ran away scared :) But that encounter was supposed to be tougher with a CR9 monster in it as well.
As I said, Vital strike and Improved Precise Shot were problematic and they are the ones that broke most of my encounter settings (1st fight babau casts darkness on the area to give everyone without darkvision 20% miss chance but ranger ignores this; last fight people avoid looking at the CR9 demon with gaze to have 50% chance to avoid rolling the save but have 20% miss chance against him but ranger avoids this).
At this level (and lvl 6 when he can have it) that kind of an ability seems too powerful :)
I will definitely need to tell the fighter in the group to do less damage with Vital Strike in the future :)
Bard buffing the party by +5 attack +4 damage, +1 ac, +1 attack and +30 feet speed in each fight was also one of the reasons as even their weaker attack while power attacking would hit often. But again Bard could have been a wizard or cleric dismissing them outright from the fight. This was a situation where the bard shined completely.
And the bard player told me yesterday that the bard is too powerful and he wants to exchange him for a cleric :)
As I said, Vital strike and Improved Precise Shot were problematic and they are the ones that broke most of my encounter settings (1st fight babau casts darkness on the area to give everyone without darkvision 20% miss chance but ranger ignores this; last fight people avoid looking at the CR9 demon with gaze to have 50% chance to avoid rolling the save but have 20% miss chance against him but ranger avoids this).
At this level (and lvl 6 when he can have it) that kind of an ability seems too powerful :)
The ability to ignore miss chance isn't all that bad. In the case of darkness for example, any creature close enough with darkvision would have gained the saem effect.
And as someone said before, 3.0 and 3.5 monsters will probably come up a bit short versus the Pathfinder classes.
One thing I've always noted, is that Cr makes a good yardstick, but depending on the party composition, and how optimized characters are, can have a dramatic effect on a parties ability to deal with combat. Some parties will have a very easy time dealing with CR's equal to party level +2, while others treat the same encounter as an all or nothing battle. And CR also tends to be based on certain things (DR, Regen and such) being applicable, so if everyone in the party can render such defenses irrelevant, it might be wise to drop the value down a notch, or increase the opposition numbers.
Just a few thoughts...it sounds like alot of what went on was getting adapted to the system changes. In my experience, it takes two or three sessions to get all the rules worked out and party efficiency ballparked well, especially when your dealing with a rules overhaul as massive as PF is. =)
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So what does that Death domain ability do if another priest channels negative energy to damage all living in the radius? Does he also get damages (it looks stupid to me that he gets damaged by it although it does not heal him)?
S2, E3: Well, I let them do all 3 encounters with one casting of Align weapon (it lasted 5 min on each of them). They didn't lose time as they knew where they were going and they didn't stop to check or loot bodies. And as you read healing was mostly not needed so no rounds lost doing that. I knew EK would be a big help, but he was here more from RP reasons as he asked them to help his people clear the demon threat and it would be right if they fought alone and ran away scared :) But that encounter was supposed to be tougher with a CR9 monster in it as well.
I hope I'm not coming off condesending in my replies as I don't mean to; just trying to be constructive.
To answer your question: If they have the 8th level ability for the Death domain they heal as if they were undead. Effectively the Death domain for a good cleric is win-win after level seven as they get healing regardless of which type of energy is being thrown around unless excluded by Selective Channel, which most NPC clerics won't have.
As for letting the Align Weapon spell last for all three encounters I'd say no. I'd say maybe two, but not three, because taking time to momentary regroup and catch your breath would be about a minute at least after each battle. Think of the battle as a track event, fighting in armor for 18-30 seconds would probably be like running a 4x400m relay at least and suddenly you're going right into another 4x400m, which will be followed by yet another? I hate to say it but you're more likely to take a moment to catch your breath. "I'm wasted on cross-country! We Dwarves are natural sprinters, very dangerous over short distances." And that doesn't count any delay due to healing, which is still at least 6 secs each casting.
In the end it's your game, but remember when it comes to long lasting spells such as Align Weapon don't be afraid to think realisticly (not that you didn't, just saying before you say yes take the time to think it over carely), putting a damper on abuse or any loop holes players might try to take advantage of that you feel uncomfortable.