The Adventure Path is the backbone of our Golarion products. It's a "load-bearing" line of products, and quite successful. And part of its success is its formula. As a result, I'm very hesitant to start making huge changes to the formula, such as starting an AP at 5th level or going to 20th level or all that. We ARE constantly tinkering and adjusting; the set piece adventures are a good example of this. But it's not a venue where we want to make lots of huge changes all at once. Especially since if we mess it up, we're stuck with the ripples of our errors for 6 months.
That said, we're constantly listening to feedback and adjusting things as a result. It's just not a very fast procedure.
Why not advertise the "other" AP's as a different product so it does not reflect on the 1-15 level AP's
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The Adventure Path is the backbone of our Golarion products. It's a "load-bearing" line of products, and quite successful. And part of its success is its formula. As a result, I'm very hesitant to start making huge changes to the formula, such as starting an AP at 5th level or going to 20th level or all that. We ARE constantly tinkering and adjusting; the set piece adventures are a good example of this. But it's not a venue where we want to make lots of huge changes all at once. Especially since if we mess it up, we're stuck with the ripples of our errors for 6 months.
That said, we're constantly listening to feedback and adjusting things as a result. It's just not a very fast procedure.
Why not advertise the "other" AP's as a different product so it does not reflect on the 1-15 level AP's
There's also the cost for creating such mods, both in time and money. Is it worth to Paizo to generate high level mods -- which has been shown to generate little income -- when said resources and personnel could be working on the next and more profitable AP?
Its not that hard to adjust the AP's for higher level gameplay.
I'm sure it isn't. But the whole reason that I, personally (and I realize you were probably addressing the thread, not just me, but this is just my POV) wanted to get a high-level AP was to see how others did it and get ideas. Having to convert it won't help me learn what already works at high levels.
I already design my own adventures and do all the work; I'm not paying somebody else money for an adventure if I still have to spend all this time converting/upgrading. I'll just stick to my own stuff and muddle through like I have been.
I realize the APs are wildly successful and wonderful and they're just not made for me, and they probably earn more than enough profit that Paizo's not going to care one little bit about getting my couple bucks on top of everyone else's. Life goes on for us all. :)
I will check out that 3rd party Ebon Shroud. Looks pretty cool.
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Personally I like the AP's as they are. But what I wouldn't mind seeing is some sandbox style adventures and some higher level ones, including some return to aka RotRL etc.
Maybe adventures the size of a chronicles books, around 60ish pages. Perhaps do one every 3 months((they already have a lot going out monthly or bimonthly)) which would be 4 a year. Anyways just thinking out loud. But while this might seem like a easy or practical solution to me, might not be from Paizo's point of view.
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Its not that hard to adjust the AP's for higher level gameplay.I'm sure it isn't. But the whole reason that I, personally (and I realize you were probably addressing the thread, not just me, but this is just my POV) wanted to get a high-level AP was to see how others did it and get ideas. Having to convert it won't help me learn what already works at high levels.
I already design my own adventures and do all the work; I'm not paying somebody else money for an adventure if I still have to spend all this time converting/upgrading. I'll just stick to my own stuff and muddle through like I have been.
I realize the APs are wildly successful and wonderful and they're just not made for me, and they probably earn more than enough profit that Paizo's not going to care one little bit about getting my couple bucks on top of everyone else's. Life goes on for us all. :)
I will check out that 3rd party Ebon Shroud. Looks pretty cool.
To be honest, this will be my first published adventure (or AP) to DM since Temple of elemental Evil in 1991. I am sooooo into personalizing the written module into something half publisher / half me that I didnt even realize how much I had done to the first Legacy of Fire module. When it is all said and done, I will have to post the most extensive Howl of the Carrion King campaign thread on the boards. I know I will be asked how I got 10 levels out of one module, but that is the curse of an uncontrolled imagination.
I was addressing the thread, just so you know, and I would comment on the Ebon Shroud, but alas, I know nothing about it.
Good luck in your adjustments. You have no idea how hard it is making House of the Beast a challenge for 10th lvl characters.
One of my special little things is having pugwampis (still alive) wrapped up and cacooned in the massive spiderwebs that cover the entrance to the HotB. It gives a whole new meaning to unlucky when they try to get through and fail their saves and get stuck in it, then trying to get out while 5hd spiders nibble on them for rounds and rounds. this is, of course, if they play along to my master plan...
Hehe.
CC
Clinton J. Boomer's Coliseum Morpheuon: The Damnation Epoch a Pathfinder Rpg Patronage Project from Rite Publishing
Sorry I failed to realize we had not done an update to the CM poriton of the Website about the project still being open and that the patrons had chosen to do 16th-20th level, though it was on the front page news, our twitter page, our facebook page, and in our paizo thread about the project.
I will go fixed that,
oh and thanks for joining us BEN
Steve Russell
Rite Publishing
Understood. Appreciate the reply, Wes. ^_^
No prob man! I only know because we've had similar ideas and they always gets holes shot in them.
There's also the cost for creating such mods, both in time and money. Is it worth to Paizo to generate high level mods -- which has been shown to generate little income -- when said resources and personnel could be working on the next and more profitable AP?The Adventure Path is the backbone of our Golarion products. It's a "load-bearing" line of products, and quite successful. And part of its success is its formula. As a result, I'm very hesitant to start making huge changes to the formula, such as starting an AP at 5th level or going to 20th level or all that. We ARE constantly tinkering and adjusting; the set piece adventures are a good example of this. But it's not a venue where we want to make lots of huge changes all at once. Especially since if we mess it up, we're stuck with the ripples of our errors for 6 months.
That said, we're constantly listening to feedback and adjusting things as a result. It's just not a very fast procedure.
Why not advertise the "other" AP's as a different product so it does not reflect on the 1-15 level AP's
When he said higher level mods it was never indicated if the higher level mods were ones that start above level X(lets say 15) or ones that go up to 16.
The ones that start above 15 don't really allow you to see your character grow, and as stated before, the time to create such a character is time consuming. The Adventure Paths seem to be quiet popular, but I don't know of many that start above 15 that people have played.
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I have to agree with the notion that many people don't like high level adventures. I prefer the 8-14 range. I think AoW has soured me on high level play. Each battle resorts to Save or Die fest, making saves vs massive damage most rounds. Our battle vs Dragotha took two full 5 hour sessions. After playing for almost a year and a half everyone was so burned out the DM shortened the last adventure and we ended up losing vs Kyuss. No one had any desire to give it a second run.
Pathfinder APs are much better (and shorter). Second Darkness took about 6-7 months to complete. Some of the battles toward the end got rather complex but not overwhelming. So far LoF seems to be on target for delivering an ending before we lose interest. The Final Wish should begin in 10 days.
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I have to agree with the notion that many people don't like high level adventures. I prefer the 8-14 range. I think AoW has soured me on high level play. Each battle resorts to Save or Die fest, making saves vs massive damage most rounds. Our battle vs Dragotha took two full 5 hour sessions. After playing for almost a year and a half everyone was so burned out the DM shortened the last adventure and we ended up losing vs Kyuss. No one had any desire to give it a second run.
Huh. I remember Ms Stevens saying something to the effect that Buhman(?) to come up with a way to make high-level adventures less arduous or something. Maybe Paizo will then consider longer(!) APs once 1) the edict has been accomplished and 2) the system works and folks start clamoring for APs reaching 1-20 levels.
Creative Director
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One more thing to point out... even if we decide TODAY to print a high level adventure, it'll be the better part of a year before that adventure is available in a store to buy.
I've been asking a lot of questions about how folks would take a high level adventure, online, at Gen Con, in chat rooms, at Paizocon, among friends, and so on. I'm seeing a fairly encouraging amount of interest in such a product. I can more or less guarantee you'll see SOMETHING from Paizo that does something with higher level content some time in the next year or two, but I can't say what that will be yet.
One more thing to point out... even if we decide TODAY to print a high level adventure, it'll be the better part of a year before that adventure is available in a store to buy.
I've been asking a lot of questions about how folks would take a high level adventure, online, at Gen Con, in chat rooms, at Paizocon, among friends, and so on. I'm seeing a fairly encouraging amount of interest in such a product. I can more or less guarantee you'll see SOMETHING from Paizo that does something with higher level content some time in the next year or two, but I can't say what that will be yet.
Fair enough. :)
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One more thing to point out... even if we decide TODAY to print a high level adventure, it'll be the better part of a year before that adventure is available in a store to buy.
I've been asking a lot of questions about how folks would take a high level adventure, online, at Gen Con, in chat rooms, at Paizocon, among friends, and so on. I'm seeing a fairly encouraging amount of interest in such a product. I can more or less guarantee you'll see SOMETHING from Paizo that does something with higher level content some time in the next year or two, but I can't say what that will be yet.
*looks at his numerous stacks of 3.x/Pathfinder adventures* Uh, how about having it ready in my third lifetime?
Some of my fondest gaming memories are from high level play - but people are right, the hard part is challenging the characters.
(in one campaign, the two main characters a barbarian and a thief/illusionist - around level 30-40 each - 1st edition - were captured Slave Pits style, and thrust into a war between rival magic-user and cleric guilds. No weapons, armor, spell components, etc., except what they could find or steal. Everything went pretty well until a spell caster cast gate, and rolling randomly and fairly, demogorgon showed up, pissed off at everyone, and began summoning/gating balors, who gated more reinforcements, etc. Things went to hell very quickly. The PCs managed to find their stuff and survive - and actually I don't remember how it ended, but it was challenging)
I do love to see high level adventures, and they are a lot of fun to read, but appreciate the mess o' stat blocks that result.
hi ppl
i diddent expect my post to generate that amount of interest, it seems ppl have strong opinions on the high lvl stuff.
let me just state, i understand that if somting is hard to sell it might not be worth doing, and i also see the point that high lvl stuff takes up a lot of space(perhaps it would be posible to cut some of the non adventure stuff from the magazines??), and you(paizo) is not likely to print somthing you dont think will sell, i suspect like wizards of the coast that you need to make some money.
however when that is said, then i cant hide a little bad tast of disapointment, as i remember with fondness our fight with drakota in the age of worms AVP, that is one of thous epic moments that we talk alot about at play sessions even though its a long time ago that we actually played it...
i would however be trilled to see pehaps some moduels of high lvl stuff, or even better an avp... perhaps it would be posible to break the 6/issue form and make one that filled 8 issues and then afterwards perhaps a shorter one that would only take up 4...
anyway that my last comment on this for now(i think).
as the titel reads, why not make an adventurepath that ends around lvl 20... its is a shame that the best of paizo's adventures end at lvl 15. i remember when they made dungeon magazin, both the schackeled city and the kyous adp, was from lvl 1-20(21).
Because at level 15 +1 experience point, your character's head explodes.
No really, it's in the rules.
Uhm... somewhere.
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Have the next Superstar contest for a 16-20th level mod! ^_^If I ever get far enough in Superstar to actually propose a module, I have every intention of proposing the most epic 20th-level module in the history of 20th-level modules.
Well, you got to the round of 16. If I can do as well I will be very excited.
And I also have an idea for a high level module. Not 20th level, but it starts at 16, which could be used perfectly after any of the AP's.
I hope I can break into the round of 32 this year. Once that happens, its all champaign and caviar for me. Of course, I would not celebrate till I found out where my final standing ends up.
Good luck to you.
I can more or less guarantee you'll see SOMETHING from Paizo that does something with higher level content some time in the next year or two, but I can't say what that will be yet.
Something more than a Pathfinder Module?
Huh. I remember Ms Stevens saying something to the effect that Buhman(?) to come up with a way to make high-level adventures less arduous or something.
OT
That's Jason Bulmahn you're talking about there, Joel A. You can't just spell his name any which way, like it was Mona's first name or something.
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The format of Pathfinder is as locked in as ANYTHING here at Paizo. Altering the 6-adventure format would cause far too many unfavorable and unwanted ripple effects and mayhem and problems, so that's not in the cards at all.
James, I thought ripple effects and mayhem were your thing. I even created a magic item for you, its called "the clouded oracle" and it forsees a change coming in paizo's AP format, and you are at the center of it. The oracle uses your own words from AP4's forward for the Legacy of fire, “Peril and paradise lie within. What secrets await you shall save you from greater perils yet to come.”
Ok, I edited it a tad...
Clinton J. Boomer's Coliseum Morpheuon: The Damnation Epoch a Pathfinder Rpg Patronage Project from Rite Publishing
Sorry I failed to realize we had not done an update to the CM portion of the Website about the project still being open and that the patrons had chosen to do 16th-20th level . . .
Steve Russell
Rite Publishing
Hey, Steve, as a patron I'll have access to Coliseum Morpheuon; but some non-patrons in this thread are HUNGRY to play at high levels without writing the adventure. So
What's the projected date for when the adventure will be open to the public?
And how can people get it?
If you are looking for a finishing off adventure that is high level and can be bothered with conversion from 2ed give Monte Cook's A Paladin in Hell a look.
If you're looking at converting high-level adventures from previous editions, IMO one of the best options is the 1st Ed AD&D H1-H4 Bloodstone modules. Not only do they cover 15th to 20th level (if played through to conclusion), but they deal with more than just dungeon crawls (the PCs save/inherit a Barony, and possibly a Kingdom).
If you are looking for a finishing off adventure that is high level and can be bothered with conversion from 2ed give Monte Cook's A Paladin in Hell a look.If you're looking at converting high-level adventures from previous editions, IMO one of the best options is the 1st Ed AD&D H1-H4 Bloodstone modules. Not only do they cover 15th to 20th level (if played through to conclusion), but they deal with more than just dungeon crawls (the PCs save/inherit a Barony, and possibly a Kingdom).
If you edit out the cheesy parts, like
the boss fight against Orcus on his home plane
the lightning guns on the fighting platform
the 1000 hp red dragon (remember, we are talking AD&D1 here - hp equal breath weapon damage)
the cigar-smoking saint talking in an southern drawl (or something in that vein)
these modules can be interesting. I guess I remember some details wrong, but still, it was very strange overall, and needs some work to make it viable IMO.
Stefan
I just lost a longish post I was writing, so I´ll keep it short this time: I think the rules cause problems with high-level play:
- not enough variation in challenges (dragons and extraplanar for the most part)
- too complex handling of challenges (hour-long dice rolling)
- convoluted stat blocks eating up too much space
The game seems to have a breaking point around level 12-15. I think reducing the PCs overall power in higher levels could do the trick. In Basic D&D, beyond level 12 (roughly) the levels gained did not mean as much as before - the power curve was shallower. Perhaps the more or less linear power curve continuation introduced with 3.x is part of the problem, making the game complex and difficult to handle.
I did not think this through to the end, obviously, but the thought might be worth more consideration.
Stefan
If you are looking for a finishing off adventure that is high level and can be bothered with conversion from 2ed give Monte Cook's A Paladin in Hell a look.If you're looking at converting high-level adventures from previous editions, IMO one of the best options is the 1st Ed AD&D H1-H4 Bloodstone modules. Not only do they cover 15th to 20th level (if played through to conclusion), but they deal with more than just dungeon crawls (the PCs save/inherit a Barony, and possibly a Kingdom).If you edit out the cheesy parts, like
** spoiler omitted **
Most of the cheese is in H4 The Throne of Bloodstone, IMO. Then again, it's the first official "epic" adventure ("For Character Levels 18-100"), so some cheese is inevitable; adapting parts of Savage Tide's "Wells of Darkness," "Enemies of My Enemy," and "Prince of Demons" to fit the Bloodstone plot would probably help.
This is one of those things that drove me crazy when I was reading the previews and later, the PFRPG - all these excellent new abilities the classes are promised after 16th level. If Paizo won't be creating adventures at that level, what is the point? What a waste of precious design time! (Don't even get me started on the whole 'balanced capstone ability' thing.)
Sorry, that was way too grumpy. =) But I have to tell you, when hardened game designers balk at doing high-level adventures in the PFRPG, there isn't much incentive for the amateurs to try. I hope Mr. Jacobs and the others find a cost-effective way to do more high -level adventures (perhaps the Pathfinder Society could help?) I really believe the PFRPG is a big step toward a game playable at all 20 levels, but first it needs a long, hard 20-step shakedown cruise.
I'm with you there. Kind of a disappointment to know that you won't be getting to 20th Lvl. If it isn't supported then why is it in the book?
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Creative Director
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I'm with you there. Kind of a disappointment to know that you won't be getting to 20th Lvl. If it isn't supported then why is it in the book?This is one of those things that drove me crazy when I was reading the previews and later, the PFRPG - all these excellent new abilities the classes are promised after 16th level. If Paizo won't be creating adventures at that level, what is the point? What a waste of precious design time! (Don't even get me started on the whole 'balanced capstone ability' thing.)
Sorry, that was way too grumpy. =) But I have to tell you, when hardened game designers balk at doing high-level adventures in the PFRPG, there isn't much incentive for the amateurs to try. I hope Mr. Jacobs and the others find a cost-effective way to do more high -level adventures (perhaps the Pathfinder Society could help?) I really believe the PFRPG is a big step toward a game playable at all 20 levels, but first it needs a long, hard 20-step shakedown cruise.
I've talked about this elsewhere, but some big reasons why the game goes to 20th even if the APs generally only go to 15th...
1) Because you need rules for foes and allies of up to 20th level, especially as main bad guys or solo foes. A 20th level NPC is a great final boss for a campaign that ends with PCs at 15th or 16th level.
2) Because 3.5 went to 20th level and Pathfinder RPG needs to be compatible.
3) Because there are plenty of other games out there other than Adventure Paths, and the PFRPG is for all of them, not just for use on an adventure path.
Now that said... I've been hearing an increased desire for high level content lately, and while I'm not 100% sure it's not a tempest in a teapot (traditionally, higher level products take a lot more resources and time to create and sell a lot fewer copies)... I'm probably convinced that the time is right to try taking an AP all the way up to 18th level with Kingmaker. We'll see how that goes...
I'm probably convinced that the time is right to try taking an AP all the way up to 18th level with Kingmaker. We'll see how that goes...
Yes? These are great news. I was going to cancel my subscriptions after reading "The Bastards of Erebus" (which I did not like anything), but now I'll wait. I still have faith in Paizo.
I've talked about this elsewhere, but some big reasons why the game goes to 20th even if the APs generally only go to 15th...
1) Because you need rules for foes and allies of up to 20th level, especially as main bad guys or solo foes. A 20th level NPC is a great final boss for a campaign that ends with PCs at 15th or 16th level.
2) Because 3.5 went to 20th level and Pathfinder RPG needs to be compatible.
3) Because there are plenty of other games out there other than Adventure Paths, and the PFRPG is for all of them, not just for use on an adventure path.
That's can be the main reason for the popularity of the prestigy clases (view it from other side).
I'm probably convinced that the time is right to try taking an AP all the way up to 18th level with Kingmaker. We'll see how that goes...
I'm not convinced that Kingmaker is the best AP for that try (is an AP very experimental) but I prefer a Kingmaker of eighteen levels that a Kingmaker of ten levels ^^
I want that Paizo make more high-level modules, but I think that if the APs reach level 15 is good. It’s fine that this is the norm, with some exceptions that go farther (an AP that go further may lead to other more epic finals)
What I do not like is that increasingly take longer at low levels. Many people consider the first 4 levels limited, and when you play many times at those levels, they become bored, because the characters really have few options. In addition, you get tired always seeing the same monsters. I really think it would not damage the APs start at level 4-5 and then advance more slowly than before. Two modules to reach level 5 is too much, I don’t like that. As DM, I also found that I can make low-level adventures easily, so I value more than Paizo save me work with higher-level material.
However, I do not see how the APs can reach level 15 by norm, if you take the medium XP route and begin to level 1.
Perhaps, to test the waters, rather than having an AP go to 18-20th level, have a couple of modules (mini-AP?) that continue where an AP left off, that start coming out with the 6th part of the AP.
This would allow those working on the AP to continue with the same thought/creative process without having to "get back into" those processes.
It may encourage more people to play high level adventures.
I believe that it would be an easier sell if Paizo turned their talents to addressing some of the issues that can plague high level games.
I believe that it would be an easier sell if Paizo turned their talents to addressing some of the issues that can plague high level games.
No, thanks. I have found that the real problems at a high-level are due to the way of playing rather than the rules themselves. I think if Paizo plays with the rules the cure will be worse than the disease. They've done enough things that I do not like in PFRPG.
No, thanks. I have found that the real problems at a high-level are due to the way of playing rather than the rules themselves.
While I do agree with you for the most part, there are some things that should be brought into line with PFRPG and where 3.5 is today.
DR/Epic is one of the things that I really do not like from the Epic Level Handbook. My houserule is that it is alignment and adamantine based damage reduction.
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I just lost a longish post I was writing, so I´ll keep it short this time: I think the rules cause problems with high-level play:
- not enough variation in challenges (dragons and extraplanar for the most part)
- too complex handling of challenges (hour-long dice rolling)
- convoluted stat blocks eating up too much spaceStefan
I can't really agree with the above. The argument that there are not enough variations in challenges seems to me like an excuse.
The first thing that comes into my mind as one variation of a challenge is the possibility of political challenges. This offers a lot of options.
Politics:
- defeat the opponent on the political platform by regular means (programs, alliances, etc)
- have him assassinated
- frame him
- discover the skeletons in his basement and make them public
- have him kidnapped and sold into slavery to a place far far away
The above leaves many more options, just take a deeper look at real world politics all over the world and times. Although, some decisions might lead to Alignment changes.
Fighting of "regular" bad guys in battle:
The opponent do not need to be out of any Monster Manual. There is always the option that they are of any kind of regular 11 Character Classes (plus Prestige Class options) and Races out of the Core Rules (and a few races out of the Monster Book - Tieflings, Half-Orcs, Giants, Ogres or even a high level Orc or Goblin (OK, that might be a little bit rare, but why not). If it works with Queen Ileosa as aristocrat 2/ Bard 16, enhanced by the Crown of Fangs, then it will work with any other higher level opponent, or a group of opponent, like a band of evil high level monks, figthers, mages clerics, bards, etc.
Enhance them with high level magic Items that they will use against the PCs at the end of the Adventure, and they will be a challenge. Once defeated, the PCs can loot them for some real magic Item goodies. Which PC does not crave powerful Items or artifacts? And the best part is, if they are awarded at the end of the Adventure, the GameMaster does not really have to worry that these Items might upset the game balance since at level 20 the Characters will retire.
The main opponent does not have to be a Queen or King, he/she could also be "just" a (bandit) General who threatens the Town. His army might be defeated by the Towns or lands own army (maybe led by the PCs), but the leader and his cronies are not accounted for and must be captured before they return with a new army. Also, The king, queen or Leader of the town or province must be protected against any assassins that might be send against him/her. Another Option is to infiltrate the opposing army in order to wreak havoc and demoralize them before the "good" army attacks. (OK, here might be a problem with the point of "convoluted stat blocks eating up too much space").
The above are just a few examples as I wrote this. I am sure that any good, experienced writer can come up with a few more opponents/situations that do not include Demons, Devils and Dragons (except as hired help) to challenge a 15 - 20th level party.
And as someone has already mentioned, this might not be part of an AP but can be done as a "sequel module" to an AP (which might also be played as a stand alone).
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You make a good point on the variety issues, but you missed that last point.
- convoluted stat blocks eating up too much space
A high level NPC stat block is pretty hefty. Ditto for advanced/unique monster manuals. Warriors less so, but a spellcaster needs to have spells known planned out. Then add on those magic items you were mentioning. THEN plot out their strategy and tactics. There is only so much room in the modules for this information, limiting just how many of these unique and complex enemies you can use. Hence the reliance on 'see MM pg. XX'
Edit: Apologies, I went off half-cocked and missed your nod to the issue.
Politics:
- defeat the opponent on the political platform by regular means (programs, alliances, etc)
- have him assassinated
- frame him
- discover the skeletons in his basement and make them public
- have him kidnapped and sold into slavery to a place far far away
The above leaves many more options, just take a deeper look at real world politics all over the world and times. Although, some decisions might lead to Alignment changes.
The problem with an endgame like this, IMO, is that (probably) a vast majority of gamers out there expect to actually fight the BBEG and will feel let down if they don't get the chance. If you have a party of bards and rogues and skilly/roleplay-ey characters, they might well relish the diplomacy and intrigue, but if you have a melee-heavy party, your fighters and barbarians are going to expect to actually get to swing their weapons. Not to mention that the assassination and kidnapping angles virtually require the party to hire NPCs to do the job of confronting the villain that they generally expect to do.
At the very least, this type of campaign wrap-up is going to require a lot of coaching by the DM in most cases and will lead to not entirely unjustified accusations of railroading. Even if you can lead a mainly hack-n-slash player to go along with passing up the big end fight, he's most likely not going to be happy about it. And as for this...
Enhance them with high level magic Items that they will use against the PCs at the end of the Adventure, and they will be a challenge. Once defeated, the PCs can loot them for some real magic Item goodies. Which PC does not crave powerful Items or artifacts? And the best part is, if they are awarded at the end of the Adventure, the GameMaster does not really have to worry that these Items might upset the game balance since at level 20 the Characters will retire.
Which PC is not going to complain about getting powerful items or artifacts right at the end and then not getting to use them because it's "time to retire?" If anything, the distribution of loot from the BBEG is an argument for ending APs before level 20 so the PCs still have several levels of adventuring to use their cool new loot.
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Now that said... I've been hearing an increased desire for high level content lately, and while I'm not 100% sure it's not a tempest in a teapot (traditionally, higher level products take a lot more resources and time to create and sell a lot fewer copies)... I'm probably convinced that the time is right to try taking an AP all the way up to 18th level with Kingmaker. We'll see how that goes...
Here is a suggestion.
Outside of the Pathfinder AP, plan a trilogy of three special, high-level modules under the Pathfinder Modules line. These can form an epilogue to one of the APs, if you like, or a stand-alone story. Figure the APL for the first module around 15, second around 17, and third at 19. Spend a bit more to produce these, as mentioned above, and then give them a premium charge to compensate. Make the climax of the third module really epic (as in, epic movies, not "post-20th level play", although the foes will have to be >20 to be challenging).
Now that said... I've been hearing an increased desire for high level content lately, and while I'm not 100% sure it's not a tempest in a teapot (traditionally, higher level products take a lot more resources and time to create and sell a lot fewer copies)... I'm probably convinced that the time is right to try taking an AP all the way up to 18th level with Kingmaker. We'll see how that goes...Here is a suggestion.
Outside of the Pathfinder AP, plan a trilogy of three special, high-level modules under the Pathfinder Modules line. These can form an epilogue to one of the APs, if you like, or a stand-alone story. Figure the APL for the first module around 15, second around 17, and third at 19. Spend a bit more to produce these, as mentioned above, and then give them a premium charge to compensate. Make the climax of the third module really epic (as in, epic movies, not "post-20th level play", although the foes will have to be >20 to be challenging).
high-level Pathfinder Modules connected to the APs is an appropriate solution, yes. And low-level Modules connected to the APs allow the APs start at 4 or 5, leaving the middle levels (preferred by most players) for the APs. Anyway, the first module of the APs do not usually have much to do with the plot.
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Only because this thread would make it appear that everybody loves high-level play I'm going to throw in my two cents.
I hate playing PCs past 15th level (and even that point is getting into the yuck territory). The game gets burdensome, and at my age, my group only gets together once a month at times. Our spellcastes spend half their night remembering what their spells do and everybody forgets SOMETHING about their character after not playing for a month (or more sometimes).
This problem compounds with each level the PCs get. Last night we took 4 and a half hours to resolve an 8 round fight. Every time the turn hit the wizards the game ground to a complete halt as they cast quickened X with empowered Y and then later that round did an immediate Z. Our fighters (and Favored Soul) often would take 2 minutes to take their action followed by an hour waiting for their next turn. This has always been one of the problems with high level play and for my group. I don't see it changing any time soon simply because we don't get to play as much as we'd like.
I know some people like high-level play, but I'm going to say (because very few in this thread appear to be members of this group) that we LOVE the APs because they fit our group's schedule. We can play them and they cap out about the time we can't control our own characters anymore. I would not buy (although as a subscriber I apparently automatically would buy) a module that took the AP past 15.
I know there are plenty of people that would, but there are plenty of us that really do prefer the play that starts at about level 5 and goes to about level 11-12.
The first thing that comes into my mind as one variation of a challenge is the possibility of political challenges. This offers a lot of options.
But they all boil down to: "Why negotiate with him if I can simply lay waste his entire kingdom?" In 1e, individual power "flattened out" after 9th level or so, keeping armies and nations relevant. Unfortunately, by the way personal power scales in 3.0/3.5/3.PF rules, high-level characters are totally unstoppable by armies of low-level charcaters, no matter how large in manpower those armies might be. Now, the only way a king can prevent high-level (17th+) characters from doing whatever they like to his kingdom is to field equally high-level characters to stop them, at which point it devolves into combat again.
Given the abilities at their disposal, there is almost no way to force high-level characters to "play by the rules" and allow political manipulation, if they are willing to actually use those abilities. Kidnap a wimpy guy the PC's like? No problem; they use divination spells to find him, scry the location, teleport in, and kill everyone present. Block those abilities? No problem; they besige the palace, kill the king's army in about six rounds, and then force the king to release the prisoner, or simply learn the sap's location from the king's own mind.
So what can you do to keep them under control? Introduce legions of characters and monsters more powerful than they are. Which leads to a grotesquely upside-down world in which the most powerful characters and monsters are more common than the least powerful ones.