Good guys in CoT ?


Council of Thieves


I'm a DM for CoCT (we enter in the Scarwall fortress tonight) and I wish to manage the CoT campaign because of all I can read concerning the Paizo's presentation of this campaign. I read the CoT's player guide and after reading it I was thinking that the group of adventure shouldn't be composed by Good guys, but rather by neutral people (with a not really clear past, little dark), Am I right or not at all, the group must be a "Good" group ?


Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

in CoT you are "rebel scum" in the star wars universe. That's about as clearly as I can put it I think.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Neutral guys would work fine in Council of Thieves... but good guys work well too. Actually, really well. Remember that the government of Cheliax is evil, and as a result good guys are going to be put in a rebellious position more or less as a result.

Now that said, you might want to suggest to your PCs that they skew toward chaotic and not law... but even then, lawful characters should be fine. Lawful doesn't mean "blindly follow the government's laws," especially in the case of a lawful good character in a society governed by lawful evil folks.

In any event, the first installment of Council of Thieves puts the PCs in contact with a few lawful good worshipers of Iomedae, so there's certainly a precedent in the NPC allies of good guys doing their thing.


James Jacobs wrote:

Neutral guys would work fine in Council of Thieves... but good guys work well too. Actually, really well. Remember that the government of Cheliax is evil, and as a result good guys are going to be put in a rebellious position more or less as a result.

Now that said, you might want to suggest to your PCs that they skew toward chaotic and not law... but even then, lawful characters should be fine. Lawful doesn't mean "blindly follow the government's laws," especially in the case of a lawful good character in a society governed by lawful evil folks.

In any event, the first installment of Council of Thieves puts the PCs in contact with a few lawful good worshipers of Iomedae, so there's certainly a precedent in the NPC allies of good guys doing their thing.

Thanks a lot James, that's a great idea. And the image in my head is "Star Wars". I'm quiet sure my PC will love that since they hate Ileosa in CoCT, the idea to play a campaign in her land stimulate my PC !

A last question is: one of my PC wants to be a tiefling, should I accept that and for his racial trait, I use the one in the Monster manual (page 210) ?


James Jacobs wrote:


A last question is: one of my PC wants to be a tiefling, should I accept that and for his racial trait, I use the one in the Monster manual (page 210) ?

In my campaign, I am making a Tiefling character who will start the game at (-1000) experience points. I think that will give the other characters a chance to gain some traction.

I want to make one of the other characters a half-orc. However, from the racial description, I am thinking no. I can't think of any reason that a half-orc who grew up being verbally abused and belittled would grow up to be of good alignment. I think the whole "kindness and charity" spark would have been burnt out of such a person at an early age.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

sempai33 wrote:
A last question is: one of my PC wants to be a tiefling, should I accept that and for his racial trait, I use the one in the Monster manual (page 210) ?

If a player wants to play a tiefling, my advice would be to let him and use one of the balancing options in Council of Thieves' player's guide (use the method you like the best and that the player is least annoyed by, I guess!). I would also require from the player a character history; if he's picking tiefling because of roleplaying reasons, this should be easy for the player. If he's picking it solely for min-max numbercrunch reasons, then making him provide a 200 or so word character history's a good way to institute a "roleplaying tax" for him.

In any case, the free Bestiary Preview here at paizo.com has stats for tieflings, so you can just download that and print out the tiefling page for the player's use. Unless you're running CoT using 3.5, in which case the MM tiefling works better. Of course, both tieflings are pretty close, rules-wise, unless the tiefling's a sorcerer with a fiendish or infernal bloodline...


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens Subscriber
Calamari wrote:


I want to make one of the other characters a half-orc. However, from the racial description, I am thinking no. I can't think of any reason that a half-orc who grew up being verbally abused and belittled would grow up to be of good alignment. I think the whole "kindness and charity" spark would have been burnt out of such a person at an early age.

Well, he could either be larger than life in that regard, and made out of truly heroic stuff, continuing to be "good" despite being abused. Or he could be quite religious, having found solace in faith (or even in meditation, in case you want to go monk with him.)

Stefan


James Jacobs wrote:


If a player wants to play a tiefling, my advice would be to let him and use one of the balancing options in Council of Thieves' player's guide (use the method you like the best and that the player is least annoyed by, I guess!). I would also require from the player a character history; if he's picking tiefling because of roleplaying reasons, this should be easy for the player. If he's picking it solely for min-max numbercrunch reasons, then making him provide a 200 or so word character history's a good way to institute a "roleplaying tax" for him.

For him it's a way to play another type of race.

James Jacobs wrote:


In any case, the free Bestiary Preview here at paizo.com has stats for tieflings, so you can just download that and print out the tiefling page for the player's use.

I donwloaded it but I didn't have a look before you tell me that! THANKS !!!!

James Jacobs wrote:


Unless you're running CoT using 3.5, in which case the MM tiefling works better. Of course, both tieflings are pretty close, rules-wise, unless the tiefling's a sorcerer with a fiendish or infernal bloodline...

No I'm alreday play CoCT with the hardcover so for CoT it will be with the hardcover too! But he wants to play a Fighter tiefling, so... He's not really sure to choose that race (we're gooing to play in 4 months) but the idea seduces him ;-D

Thanks a lot James another time!

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

one of my players is playing a tiefling cleric of iomadae with the infernal basterd trait. we also rolled on the chatrs in the ap. he rolled oni heritage, extra thumbs, and dr2/bludg.


drowranger80 wrote:
one of my players is playing a tiefling cleric of iomadae with the infernal basterd trait. we also rolled on the chatrs in the ap. he rolled oni heritage, extra thumbs, and dr2/bludg.

I thought that give him a trait like "infernal bastard" was enough to make him a little less strong than the other, or do I have to add some other characteristics lower, doesn't it?

Scarab Sages

Here is something I came up with for my group. It's not as harsh as it seems - there are just a lot of options for Tieflings and I wanted to make sure the player had some choices. Also - they don't HAVE to take the Infernal Bastard trait.

Two of the four players are seriously considering playing tieflings AFTER I presented this. I didn't want a group full of tieflings - for one thing, Arael hates Tieflings, so Janiven would have to intervene a lot in their favor. That's one reason I gave the core races a bonus.

--------------------------------------

Non-Tiefling PCs

Add +2 to any stat that does not already have a +2 racial bonus. You can use this to negate a -2 racial modifier.

Choose one campaign trait and one other character trait from the Cheliax book or the Traits Web enhancement.

-------------------------------------------------------

Tiefling PCs

**If you are interested in playing a Tiefling, just request a copy of the information and variant charts described below**

Choose one campaign trait - you do not get the extra character trait;
If you take the Infernal Bastard trait, roll twice on the Variant Tiefling Features chart.

Roll 5 times on the Random Tiefling Features table - choose two of these.

Variant Heritages can be chosen (i.e. non-standard racial stat modifiers), but you must also take a random roll on the random features table. No rerolls. This is in addition to the required two features.

Three feats are available in addition to the feats in the rulebook as your first level feat. If you choose Fiendish Heritage, ignore the above rule on fiendish heritages. Fiendish Facade and Monstrous Mask are also available.

--
If you choose sorcerer as a Tiefling, you must choose from the Aberrant, Abyssal, Arcane, Destined, or Infernal bloodlines.

From the Free Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary preview:
Fiendish Sorcery (Ex) Tiefling sorcerers with the Abyssal or Infernal bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer class abilities.

If you choose the Abyssal or Infernal bloodlines, you must have the standard racial stats or choose the corresponding variant heritage (random feature roll requirement still applies).

Scarab Sages

The part about taking a random roll on the features part if you take the different stat blocks was to discourage min-maxing.

rotting skin anyone?


Our time with CoT has really been very reminiscent of "Robin Hood".
We are urged not to kill, but run about doing acts of good.

Our players are 1 Neutral good, 2 Neutrals, 1 Lawful Neutral ( a monk who hasnt started play yet) and a Neutral evil.

The Lawful neutral monk took the "lost nobility" campaign trait and therefor has reason/motive to act against the government.


sempai33 wrote:
Am I right or not at all, the group must be a "Good" group ?

To my perception, a good-aligned group would better integrate with the NPC organization. The "we don't want to kill people" bit has caused some consternation with my Chaotic Neutral with a tinge of Good PC's.

My Beloved Spouse (Kobold chorus: "We love you!") is running four PC's. One is Neutral, one is Neutral Good, one is Chaotic Good and one was Neutral something or other then went Chaotic Evil at a plot twist before dying horribly in the sewers. (That's a different story, though)

During the NPC meet-and-greet, it was presented "We don't want to kill people" but I didn't properly pitch this and make it clear that the NPC organization is full of very traditional Stand Up Do Gooders and Lawful types. So when it came time to spring Arael, lots of people died badly. And at the end, the Chaotic Good fighter proposed "sending a message" to the Hellknights. And was basically told "We're not terrorists!" This broke the game flow pretty hard for me and my player and we paused for the night to rethink the character's approach.

There was talk of the PC's splintering. There was talk (I think) of one of the PC's selling out the NPC's. It was a fascinating study of psychology. And at the end of the day, we reached an agreement that the PC's would continue to work with the NPC's more out of a sense of "Hey, they might roll over on us to the Hellknights" than a moral obligation to doing the right thing.

My wife's take on this was, and I'm paraphrasing here: "A bunch of hippy idealist peaceniks won't survive very long at all in Cheliax." Cheliax is very appealing BECAUSE of its crunchy evil center. Seriously, an entire diabolical country is not one that will change by the actions of a group of idealists who are not willing to spill blood. It's not like the Hellknights would stop just because of a stern talking to. Her Infernal Majestrix Abrogail II is not going to show her soft white underbelly because of a scolding. They're EVIL! And worse yet, they're BORED and evil.

I, the GM, like the idea of such a bunch of NPC's. And as a player, I'd be totally down with running a group of Lawful types through this and having a ball. But at the end of the day, it sticks out a bit from the crop of 'dark and gritty' products that I'm used to seeing from the Pathfinder crew. And you don't get much more dark and gritty than Westcrown.

In summation, Good guys make more sense in this adventure than Neutral and definitely more sense than Evil. At least, as the adventure is written. As I've tweaked it, it's a perfect framework for morally gray and gritty types. The structure allows for the latter, but painting in the lines is (to my perception) designed for the former.

Just my 2cp

Silver Crusade

Glad to know I'm not the only one who's got a Star Wars vibe from this. I already told my players not to aspire to the Hellknights because I want them to be able to treat them, "like Imperial Stormtroopers". I've got some beginners in the group, so I might let them play a little rougher with the Hellknights than the adventure expressly calls for.

Good alignments are definitely in for this AP. The Council of Thieves is shaping up to be a villainous organization, not a player character patron. Shady rakes and scoundrels will work fine, but they aren't really necessary.

I doubt anyone will choose to play a tiefling, but if someone does, I'll just require the Infernal Bastard trait. They'll get plenty of role-playing tax for the choice, well-developed background or not!

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Path / Council of Thieves / Good guys in CoT ? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Council of Thieves
2e Conversion...?