Greater Feint (Combat)
You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks. Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
I don't understand the point of this feat. Is it designed to allow for sneak attacks as part of an AoO? It seems that the feat should cause the target to lose their dexterity bonus until the end, not the beginning, of your next turn. Otherwise the feat is basically useless for rogues. It seems reasonable to me that a rogue should be able to setup a full attack of sneak attacks every other round at the cost of 80% of their class feats by level 9 (Combat Expertise, Feint, Greater Feint, Skill Focus: Bluff) not to mention the need for decent Int and Cha.
If I'm reading it right, it loses it's Dex bonus against anyone else's attacks too until the beginning of your next turn.
I believe the foe loses his Dexterity bonus to all attacks until the beginning of your next turn, not just the ones that you make.
That is fairly minor considering the character with the feat gets no benefit and that the trick requires a lot of feat and skill investment.
I believe the foe loses his Dexterity bonus to AC against all attacks until the beginning of your next turn, not just the ones that you make. In addition to that, the foe loses his Dexterity bonus to AC against your next attack (even if it happens after the beginning of your next turn).
The rules text isn't perfectly clear but the descriptive text does imply that.
I believe the foe loses his Dexterity bonus to all attacks until the beginning of your next turn, not just the ones that you make.That is fairly minor considering the character with the feat gets no benefit and that the trick requires a lot of feat and skill investment.
It turns into a rogue party filleting your kidney while laughing as they take turns causing you to lose your dex bonus over an over.
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I believe the foe loses his Dexterity bonus to all attacks until the beginning of your next turn, not just the ones that you make.That is fairly minor considering the character with the feat gets no benefit and that the trick requires a lot of feat and skill investment.
I edited while you all were posting, and if you've got three people ganging up on an enemy, making it so the enemy doesn't have dexterity bonus for a round or so is a good thing.
I believe the foe loses his Dexterity bonus to all attacks until the beginning of your next turn, not just the ones that you make.That is fairly minor considering the character with the feat gets no benefit and that the trick requires a lot of feat and skill investment.
Granting a bonus to your allies is, in an average party, three times as good as just gaining that bonus yourself.
But what makes me want to dismiss it is the fact that improved feint is generally used by rogues going mono-y-mono. If you have a bunch of buddies there, why wouldn't you just flank?
If you've got the swift-action feint class feature from one of those Complete classes or other, then you'd be able to feint and get sneak attack bonuses with iterative attacks.
I believe the foe loses his Dexterity bonus to all attacks until the beginning of your next turn, not just the ones that you make.That is fairly minor considering the character with the feat gets no benefit and that the trick requires a lot of feat and skill investment.Granting a bonus to your allies is, in an average party, three times as good as just gaining that bonus yourself.
But what makes me want to dismiss it is the fact that improved feint is generally used by rogues going mono-y-mono. If you have a bunch of buddies there, why wouldn't you just flank?
Perhaps because there might be two sneak attack based classes who can't get the flank?
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Lets say Character 1 is a rogue, character 2 is the fighter, and character three is an assassin. (or another class that grants sneak attack) The O is the poor schmuck in this sordid situation.
Greater feint allows character 3 a sneak attack he is otherwise untitled to.
If you've got the swift-action feint class feature from one of those Complete classes or other, then you'd be able to feint and get sneak attack bonuses with iterative attacks.
Technically you're thinking of the Beguiler from Player's Handbook II, assuming you're thinking of a base class.
I edited while you all were posting, and if you've got three people ganging up on an enemy, making it so the enemy doesn't have dexterity bonus for a round or so is a good thing.I believe the foe loses his Dexterity bonus to all attacks until the beginning of your next turn, not just the ones that you make.That is fairly minor considering the character with the feat gets no benefit and that the trick requires a lot of feat and skill investment.
If you have three people ganging up on a single target that target is already flanked... I have a hard time imagining any class other than a rogue investing in the Feint chain and if the rogue picks up Greater Feint the rogue will never benefit from the feat themselves unless the target provokes an AoO - pretty situational. It seems even less likely that the party will encounter enough high Dex opponents to justify the significant feat and skill costs required to get this chain working.
I believe the foe loses his Dexterity bonus to all attacks until the beginning of your next turn, not just the ones that you make.That is fairly minor considering the character with the feat gets no benefit and that the trick requires a lot of feat and skill investment.Granting a bonus to your allies is, in an average party, three times as good as just gaining that bonus yourself.
But what makes me want to dismiss it is the fact that improved feint is generally used by rogues going mono-y-mono. If you have a bunch of buddies there, why wouldn't you just flank?
Because with this you can flank AND deny the target its DEX bonus, thus lowering its AC a bit/lot more. Also, if you're an uneven number of attackers, not everyone might be able to flank, but they would still benefit from the lowered AC.
Not to mention the overall reduction of AC. Confusing a person enough with a feint so he's not sure how to defend himself is a huge tactical advantage.
Is it worth 80% of your feats and a skill point per level as well as imposing greater multiple ability dependence?
There are lots of little benefits to this feat, though most have to do with the rogue being a team player. Have an enemy that is hard for your spellcasters to hit? Use a move action and drop his touch AC to 10.
That is an incredibly situational benefit for a very steep cost.
Okay, gotcha. Was missremembering the flank rules (I assumed that flanking denied their dex bonus anyway, which I believe it did once upon a time).
Denying their dex bonus also denies any dodge bonus they might benefit from, which can add up to a heft bonus to your allies' attack rolls.
Also, the rogue doesn't need to follow this chain. You could have the bard take it and then play back-up for the rogue.
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Not to mention the overall reduction of AC. Confusing a person enough with a feint so he's not sure how to defend himself is a huge tactical advantage.Is it worth 80% of your feats and a skill point per level as well as imposing greater multiple ability dependence?
Skill point per level? In what, bluff? Bluff's a pretty good skill to have as it is, even without the feint usage of Bluff.
...a very steep cost.
Improved Feint and Greater Feint add up to two feats. Bluff is a skill you want anyway, and CE is a very common prerequisite which will also open up other feat chains for you.
I think you may be overblowing the costs just a hair here.
One skill point to markedly improve your combat effectiveness, as a rogue, is fairly insignificant anyway.
Heck, if you're worried about the feat cost, what skills is your fighter putting his points into?
Not to mention the overall reduction of AC. Confusing a person enough with a feint so he's not sure how to defend himself is a huge tactical advantage.Is it worth 80% of your feats and a skill point per level as well as imposing greater multiple ability dependence?
Let me put it this way. If you're a melee-based rogue, you're taking those feats anyway. If you aren't a melee-based rogue, then why did you take Improved Feint in the first place? Besides, all you really need is Intelligence 13 and a decent Charisma, and you can probably skip Skill Focus(Bluff).
EDIT: Alright, you need three feats to really do this, all of which a melee rogue want to take anyway, and a skill which most rogues would probably want anyway.
Not to mention the overall reduction of AC. Confusing a person enough with a feint so he's not sure how to defend himself is a huge tactical advantage.Is it worth 80% of your feats and a skill point per level as well as imposing greater multiple ability dependence?
Since when is three feats 80% of 10? And technically you only need the six skill points to take the feat, since you know, that's the prerequisite.
...a very steep cost.Improved Feint and Greater Feint add up to two feats. Bluff is a skill you want anyway, and CE is a very common prerequisite which will also open up other feat chains for you.
I think you may be overblowing the costs just a hair here.
CE isn't likely to be part of any non-CMD build other than for the feint tree and it requires at least a 13 Int. You'll also need a decent Cha and Skill Focus: Bluff to have a reasonable chance of success. I'm assuming you need 4 feats to make this combo work, 80% of a rogue's allotment at level 9.
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Yes, the Feint chain is great for the Intelligence/Charisma fighter :). You don't even have to be a rogue to enjoy the benefits of this feat. (You can imagine a dual-wielding fighter with blade and dagger, feinting with the dagger jut before a strike from the blade, and everyone else fighting the same creature gets a bonus too.)
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CE isn't likely to be part of any non-CMD build other than for the feint tree and it requires at least a 13 Int. You'll also need a decent Cha and Skill Focus: Bluff to have a reasonable chance of success. I'm assuming you need 4 feats to make this combo work, 80% of a rogue's allotment at level 9....a very steep cost.Improved Feint and Greater Feint add up to two feats. Bluff is a skill you want anyway, and CE is a very common prerequisite which will also open up other feat chains for you.
I think you may be overblowing the costs just a hair here.
At level 9, a rogue who has maxed out his bluff, has +12. I don't really think you need anything higher than that. :P Of course, if you don't want to feint, no one said you had to take the feat. Put your skill points someplace else if you want.
Skill focus bluff? Now you're trying to make it sound suboptimal. Yes, combat maneuvers favor the defender, but it's much easier to boost a skill than it is to boost your CMB.
It would be very easy to build a support guy like this who used greater feint every round with their move action, then used their standard action for one of Pathfinder's several use-a-standard-action-to-disable-your-foes powers (scorpion style, deadly stroke, laughing touch, whatever).
Not to mention the overall reduction of AC. Confusing a person enough with a feint so he's not sure how to defend himself is a huge tactical advantage.Is it worth 80% of your feats and a skill point per level as well as imposing greater multiple ability dependence?Let me put it this way. If you're a melee-based rogue, you're taking those feats anyway. If you aren't a melee-based rogue, then why did you take Improved Feint in the first place? Besides, all you really need is Intelligence 13 and a decent Charisma, and you can probably skip Skill Focus(Bluff).
EDIT: Alright, you need three feats to really do this, all of which a melee rogue want to take anyway, and a skill which most rogues would probably want anyway.
Except that a melee rogue would be better off with the Dazzling Display/Shattered Defenses tree which can allow for multiple rounds of full attack sneak attacks and is available at level 9 for the same number of feats and skills and the early pre-req, weapon focus, is a more useful feat than CE.
Shatter Defenses (Combat)
Your skill with your chosen weapon leaves opponents unable to defend themselves if you strike them when their defenses are already compromised.Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, base attack bonus +6, proficiency with weapon.
Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is f lat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.
To your attacks.
How much of a team player are you?
The group is more than the sum of its parts, remember.
CE isn't likely to be part of any non-CMD build other than for the feint tree and it requires at least a 13 Int. You'll also need a decent Cha and Skill Focus: Bluff to have a reasonable chance of success. I'm assuming you need 4 feats to make this combo work, 80% of a rogue's allotment at level 9....a very steep cost.Improved Feint and Greater Feint add up to two feats. Bluff is a skill you want anyway, and CE is a very common prerequisite which will also open up other feat chains for you.
I think you may be overblowing the costs just a hair here.
Let's see, I'm already a quarter of the way there at level 4. If I didn't take Improved Initiative, I'd be half way up your feat chain. Oh, if you don't use any of your Rogue Talents on combat feats and you're not a human, it does take a good deal of your feats. Still, you get plenty of talents, why not use one or two of them on feats?
Not to mention the overall reduction of AC. Confusing a person enough with a feint so he's not sure how to defend himself is a huge tactical advantage.Is it worth 80% of your feats and a skill point per level as well as imposing greater multiple ability dependence?
The assumption is that the feat is desirable for people who would take improved feint anyhow in which case the 'cost' is exactly 1 feat.
To your attacks.
How much of a team player are you?
The group is more than the sum of its parts, remember.
True, but denying dex bonus is ok but not fantastic. It helps the team a little but doesn't help the character who invested in the chain. In the end the team would be better served if rogue went for the Dazzling Display/Shattered Defenses combo and was able to triple their damage output.
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Don't forget that such a rogue could take a couple of feats as his rogue talents too.
Combat Trick would be a free feat.
Finesse Rogue gives weapon finesse.
Weapon Training gives Weapon Focus as a bonus feat too.
At level 10 a rogue may instead take a feat as an advanced talent.
So we have the possibility of 3 extra feats before ninth level and another one at 10th level.
True, but denying dex bonus is ok but not fantastic. It helps the team a little but doesn't help the character who invested in the chain. In the end the team would be better served if rogue went for the Dazzling Display/Shattered Defenses combo and was able to triple their damage output.To your attacks.
How much of a team player are you?
The group is more than the sum of its parts, remember.
You seem stuck on the idea that only a rogue is going to take this.
This is a bad feat for rogues because they're a very full-attack-dependent class. But if you're a melee-dabbler like a cleric or bard then losing your move action isn't that bad, and if you're a real fighter you now have countless options for doing awesome things with a standard-action attack.
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Precisely, the greater feint confuses the opponent to the point where he doesn't know when, where, or how the next attack is coming from. A rogue could greater feint an opponent, let his friends whack on him for a while, then come back a minute later and stab him in the back. Quite ingenius, really.
Except that a melee rogue would be better off with the Dazzling Display/Shattered Defenses tree which can allow for multiple rounds of full attack sneak attacks and is available at level 9 for the same number of feats and skills and the early pre-req, weapon focus, is a more useful feat than CE.
If you wanted to compare the two then why didn't you bring it up in this light to begin with?
Combat Expertise -> Improved Feint is available at 1st level or 3rd for non-human non-fighters
Weapon Focus -> Dazzling Display -> Shatter Defenses isn't available until 9th level
Dazzling Display - Dazzling Display is a full round action don't plan on going anywhere. Based on HD which are generally 25% higher than BAB. This difference gets higher as you level.
Dazzling Display also has penalties and bonuses based on size and these are pretty significant.
I think both approaches have their advantages. I don't know if my rogue will be taking Greater Feint but he will likely take Improved Feint.
The feint and the attack benefiting from the feint should be one action. Fake from the left, then (a split second later) stab from the right. Treating them as separate actions is absurdly clunky and inorganic.
The reason I think Greater Feint is fine is because it lets you extend a (possibly substantial) attack bonus to your entire party. That's a solid tactic, especially since you don't have to be worth a damn in melee yourself to use it (it isn't your attacks that are gaining the bonus, it's the barbarian's attacks or the rogue's attacks).
This is a bad feat for rogues because they're a very full-attack-dependent class. But if you're a melee-dabbler like a cleric or bard then losing your move action isn't that bad, and if you're a real fighter you now have countless options for doing awesome things with a standard-action attack.
YEah, I'd be very interested in trying out a high-AC bag-of-tricks fighter. Basically, a front-line "de-buffer". I think it's a really viable build. Hmm.... I'll have to make one to fight my PCs.
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In addition to what other posters have said there are certain creatures that cannot be flanked but still can be sneak attacked (A beholder, someone with Robe of Eyes, etc.). This feat would be very useful in those circumstances as well. While it is quite a few feats, it's only 3 feats when the earliest you can get the feat is level 8. Counting for that a rogue could potentially have as many as 8 feats by level 8. While alot of feats yes, a waste no. Combat expertise isn't a bad feat for a squishy rogue, and it's only one past Improved Feint.
True, but denying dex bonus is ok but not fantastic. It helps the team a little but doesn't help the character who invested in the chain. In the end the team would be better served if rogue went for the Dazzling Display/Shattered Defenses combo and was able to triple their damage output.To your attacks.
How much of a team player are you?
The group is more than the sum of its parts, remember.
Except the rogue has to use a full round action to do his dazzling display and only gets a full attack option in the next round if the enemy doesn't move away. Yeah, it takes 2 full rounds to do a dazzling display and then use shattered defenses.
Now if he was scared some other way, maybe by your barbarian friend it's pretty cool. I think I have to turn this around. Is it really worth three feats for a feat that takes 2 full rounds to really use?
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I thought one of the main benefits was that if you had multiple attacks you could sneak attack more than once that round as opposed to just the next attack ...
Of course this would require 3 or more attacks but TWF and a high level rogue would be good.
(maybe I'm missing something?)
edit: I forgot Feint is not a Attack Action ... so you'd only need two attacks to take advantage of it ...
That is fairly minor considering the character with the feat gets no benefit and that the trick requires a lot of feat and skill investment.
Don't be so selfish. This isn't a lone wolves game. Wizards can cast haste even though they don't get a lot out of it.
And you have to see it like this: You already have combat expertise, because you cant to increase your AC (maybe because you're the dancing dervish/duelist type who wears light armour and likes having really high AC), and you already have feint to get your enemy to lose his dex bonus to AC, so your attacks will hit more easily (actually, that's a neat combo: You lower your attack roll to increase your AC, then you lower his AC to make you hit better again. You get the bastard coming and going)
After all that, it's just one more feat. The rogue will thank you for that.
I can think of worse things than Merisiel being grateful for helping her in combat. She's a calistrian. She has interesting ways to show her gratitude. Oh, and she has interesting ways to show her annoyance, too, but I don't like those nearly as much.
Hm... when our party is obliterated by the next evil artefact we come across, I'll play that character. It's decided!
If you have three people ganging up on a single target that target is already flanked
Not necessarily. Could be a high-level rogue. Or a not-quite-as-high-level barbarian. Or he could otherwise prevent you from flanking, maybe by fighting in formation.
And even if you flank the bugger, making him lose his dex to AC in addition to the other stuff makes it even better. Increases the rogue's chances of hitting not just with his primary attacks, but also with the other ones.
I thought one of the main benefits was that if you had multiple attacks you could sneak attack more than once that round as opposed to just the next attack ...
Of course this would require 3 or more attacks but TWF and a high level rogue would be good.
(maybe I'm missing something?)
edit: I forgot Feint is not a Attack Action ... so you'd only need two attacks to take advantage of it ...
Except, even with Improved Feint the Feint action is a move action. If you use a move action, you can't take a full attack action.
And that means you normally can't get two attacks in the same round you feint.
Feint, Attack. Parry, Riposte, Lunge. All in a round. :P
Ho ho, hee hee, ha ha!