Except that a melee rogue would be better off with the Dazzling Display/Shattered Defenses tree which can allow for multiple rounds of full attack sneak attacks and is available at level 9 for the same number of feats and skills and the early pre-req, weapon focus, is a more useful feat than CE.If you wanted to compare the two then why didn't you bring it up in this light to begin with?
Combat Expertise -> Improved Feint is available at 1st level or 3rd for non-human non-fighters
Weapon Focus -> Dazzling Display -> Shatter Defenses isn't available until 9th level
Dazzling Display - Dazzling Display is a full round action don't plan on going anywhere. Based on HD which are generally 25% higher than BAB. This difference gets higher as you level.
Dazzling Display also has penalties and bonuses based on size and these are pretty significant.
I think both approaches have their advantages. I don't know if my rogue will be taking Greater Feint but he will likely take Improved Feint.
You don't need to use Dazzling Display, you only have to take it to get access to Shattered Defenses. You can take a move action and then use a standard action to intimidate a single opponent into shaken status. If you beat their counter check by 5 or more the target is shaken into the following round meaning once your first attack hits you now have two full rounds to full attack with each additional attack producing sneak attack precision damage.
You are correct that this combo doesn't start to pay off until level 9 whereas Improved Feint can start to pay off as early as level 3. It would be nice, however, if the rogue had more than one feat tree option for setting up sneak attacks.
Don't forget that such a rogue could take a couple of feats as his rogue talents too.
Combat Trick would be a free feat.
Finesse Rogue gives weapon finesse.
Weapon Training gives Weapon Focus as a bonus feat too.At level 10 a rogue may instead take a feat as an advanced talent.
So we have the possibility of 3 extra feats before ninth level and another one at 10th level.
Only "Combat Trick" can be used to grab a feat from the Feint chain and it can only be taken once.
You don't need to use Dazzling Display, you only have to take it to get access to Shattered Defenses. You can take a move action and then use a standard action to intimidate a single opponent into shaken status. If you beat their counter check by 5 or more the target is shaken into the following round meaning once your first attack hits you now have two full rounds to full attack with each additional attack producing sneak attack precision damage.
You are correct that this combo doesn't start to pay off until level 9 whereas Improved Feint can start to pay off as early as level 3. It would be nice, however, if the rogue had more than one feat tree option for setting up sneak attacks.
I do think it's good to have options, and this is a good option but I think improved feint is still going to be the preferred route for most rogues. By 9th-11th level rogues start getting better access to magic and improved invisibility which sort of defeats both these options.
I do think it's good to have options, and this is a good option but I think improved feint is still going to be the preferred route for most rogues. By 9th-11th level rogues start getting better access to magic and improved invisibility which sort of defeats both these options.You don't need to use Dazzling Display, you only have to take it to get access to Shattered Defenses. You can take a move action and then use a standard action to intimidate a single opponent into shaken status. If you beat their counter check by 5 or more the target is shaken into the following round meaning once your first attack hits you now have two full rounds to full attack with each additional attack producing sneak attack precision damage.
You are correct that this combo doesn't start to pay off until level 9 whereas Improved Feint can start to pay off as early as level 3. It would be nice, however, if the rogue had more than one feat tree option for setting up sneak attacks.
In a game world where rogues have easy access to improved invisibility, why don't opponents have easy access to one of the many options available for detecting invisibility?
In a game world where rogues have easy access to improved invisibility, why don't opponents have easy access to one of the many options available for detecting invisibility?
I'm sure some of them would, but nowhere near 100%. Probably something like 5-10% of enemies, maybe less. A larger percentage (maybe another 15-25% are going to have ways to detect invisible creatures but not actually see them (scent, tremorsense, etc) and invisibility will still be effective for sneak attacks against these creatures.
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True, but denying dex bonus is ok but not fantastic. It helps the team a little but doesn't help the character who invested in the chain. In the end the team would be better served if rogue went for the Dazzling Display/Shattered Defenses combo and was able to triple their damage output.To your attacks.
How much of a team player are you?
The group is more than the sum of its parts, remember.
Denying the Dex Bonus of something that is exceptionally quick is actually quite effective...like an NPC with a 20 or 22 Dex? That's 5 or 6 AC it also loses...which means the fighter will likely hit with every attack, the monk using flurry will tear the target up and the rogue will have a much better chance of landing those sneak attacks....
Throw a character with Dazzling Display in there to slam your opponent with the shaken condition, and now you've completely debuffed them, and they will fall in 1 or 2 rounds...
Not every feat is about the individual...
Depending on how you build your rogue, the feat can be quite a boon. Vital strike, poisons, area-effect spells, and anything where you really want them to stand still for a bit.
And remember, it says "cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus", it doesn't make them flat-footed. While they can still make AoOs, they also lose the effectiveness of Weapon Finesse, can't really back up and shoot a bow at you, lose possibly a great deal of Reflex save, and a similar amount of CMD.
Also, folks that are suggesting to use Rogue Talents to pick stuff up, you can only get any one rogue talent once. I'd rule that to include combat Trick, but some DMs may not.
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Okay as people pointed out it is not always the best rogue feat. However, I think it is an AWESOME bard feat. I saw a bard 8/fighter 1 or fighter 2 not sure if he was 9th or 10th (I think that was his build) with greater trip and greater feint. He traveled with a rogue (combat oriented) and a sorcerer.
Round 1
Sorcerer enlarged bard
Bard sang, move action feint bad guy, 5ft step
Rogue move up and power attacks bad guy with sneak attack because he is denied his dex.
Bad guy swings at rogue some
Round 2
Sorcerer haste
Bard (now enlarged with whip), 5 ft step, Free action sang, Move action feint, standard action trip (greater) provoked an AOO
Rouge took AOO (still power attacking from previous round) then improved two weapon fighting, power attack with haste on prone sneakable guy. Then 5ft closer to next target.
Bad guy dead.
The rogue got in 7 sneak attacks in 2 rounds, the bad guy acted once.
I saw this combo used over and over again. It was devastating and in a dungeon crawl where the fights are back to back there was no need to recast enlarge.
I had also seen Feint move action, then feint as standard action. Rogue got sneak and the sorcerer's scorching ray spells on second target hit a lot easier when there was not good time or reason for enlarge/trip.
Also Feint is the only ability that trumps uncanny dodge when trying to sneak attack a creature with uncanny dodge like other rogues or barbarians.
So while it is a decent feat for a rogue I think it is an awesome feat for a bard.
I edited while you all were posting, and if you've got three people ganging up on an enemy, making it so the enemy doesn't have dexterity bonus for a round or so is a good thing.I believe the foe loses his Dexterity bonus to all attacks until the beginning of your next turn, not just the ones that you make.That is fairly minor considering the character with the feat gets no benefit and that the trick requires a lot of feat and skill investment.
This makes it easier for the party casters to hit with some ranged touch spells, the rogue to use a ranged sneak attack if he isn't close enough, etc.
No big personal benefit, but your buddies will have an easier time hitting your opponent. You may not have to feint in the next round!
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Let me put it this way. If you're a melee-based rogue, you're taking those feats anyway. If you aren't a melee-based rogue, then why did you take Improved Feint in the first place?Not to mention the overall reduction of AC. Confusing a person enough with a feint so he's not sure how to defend himself is a huge tactical advantage.Is it worth 80% of your feats and a skill point per level as well as imposing greater multiple ability dependence?
Because you get your best damage bonus through vital strike? I know I have been thinking of a bard build who's going to have levels of duelist and go vital strike route with spring attack goodness, but if I use some of my extra feats for the feint line of attacks it'll let me do better with vital strike and also allow me to help the party in situations where movement isn't advantageous or necessary.
There is a lot to be gained by denying the foe's DEX bonus.
1. His AC goes down. Your attack this round is more likely to hit and so are all your allies' attacks. It might be especially useful to note that his Touch AC goes down as well.
2. His REF save goes down if anyone or anything might cause him to need one.
3. His initiative goes down. Many DMs overlook this, but I would make sure to apply this - it might allow one or more of your allies to act before this guy when they otherwise would have been after him.
4. He is sneak attackable to everyone who can sneak attack him.
5. If he has Combat Reflexes, he will only get one AoO this round because he has no DEX mod.
6. If he's relying on Weapon Finesse, or using ranged attacks, you've just reduced his chances of hitting.
7. His CMD goes down, so you or anyone else can disarm him, trip him, grapple him, or whatever, with greater ease.
8. Many skills are DEX based, and a few of those are useful in combat, such as Acrobatics and sometimes Stealth. Maybe even Ride and Fly, especially if he's trying to fight while mounted.
Still not enough?
Consider a couple reasonable house rules:
1. Any feat or class ability (etc.) that requires a DEX of 12+ really requires a DEX Modifier of +1 or higher. Since he is denied his DEX mod, he loses access to all of these abilities (such as Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, etc.).
2. Extend the rule that Flatfooted combatants cannot make any AoO to include any combatant who is denied his DEX mod and suddenly the guy you have Greater Feinted gets zero attacks of opportunity for a whole round - good time to move past him if you (or your allies) want to.
Uhh..
Feinting keeps an enemy from adding their dex bonus to armor class.
Their dexterity doesn't actually change. They still apply their dex to everything else except armor class (and CMD).
Uhh..
Feinting keeps an enemy from adding their dex bonus to armor class.
Their dexterity doesn't actually change. They still apply their dex to everything else except armor class (and CMD).
Oh, well, if it says it that way, then consider the whole post to be a laundry list of houserules...
Oh, well, if it says it that way, then consider the whole post to be a laundry list of houserules...
I still say we play it as is for a few years. Only then will we have a playtested perspective from which to change it.
I don't want to get another book anytime soon. This system is pretty close to right, IMHO.
Yep, only dex to AC is lost, but feint and it's improved variant still seems great if the group cooperates.
In no way I consider the rogue to be strictly lone wolf and the Improved Feint, while less useful in one on one fight still allows you one sneak attack when you otherwise may be left with none. And as it was already said. The rogue doesn't have to be the only one to feint.
The teamwork benefit evens things out IMO and the fact that you can feint on foes that can't be sneak attacked, so that the fighter has some easier work with power attacks.
So... is it safe to assume that this feat means the opponent loses his Dexterity bonus to *everyone*?? Not just the person that did the feinting?
Yes, the victim loses his dex bonus to everyone until the begining of the feinter's next turn. In addition, the victim still has no dex bonus to the feinter until the feinter's next attack.
A nice win/win feat.
Well, until someone does it to yourself, I guess :( Gotta remember to keep my sense motive higher, demmit.
wasgreg
Am I the only one who thinks we've come to understand this game well enough to know that the feint action speeds should be accelerated? Move action for normal feint, Swift action for improved feint? (This would bring greater feint right where it needs to be, allowing the rogue the chance of out-maneuvering his opponent if his skill check is high enough and actually benefiting from it properly. And you can cut out that ugly wording regarding "including your next attack even if it occurs after the start of your next turn.")
+1, you're definitely not the only one.
The more I think about the feint chain, the less I like it, and the more I think it's a "gotcha" feat:
1) It's incredibly situational. Any 3/4 BAB class taking Greater Feint won't get it until level 9, at which point their party will likely have a 95% hit rate. Meaning lowering the average opponent's AC means diddly. So it's only useful against high DEX opponents, and best taken by a full BAB class so your party can benefit from levels 6-8.
2) Sneak Attack is the game's apology for DEX being such a crappy melee damage stat. Basically, any time you are denied a sneak attack, the game is laughing at you, saying "Hey remember when you didn't put your points into STR? Sucker." Feint, even Improved, is so bad for the party's DPR if used by the rogue, because he can then only make a single (one-handed!) standard attack + sneak attack. It's a much better feat chain if used by someone wielding a 2 handed weapon, but if you have that person in your party, you have a flank buddy for your rogue, so the bonus to sneak attack means nothing.
So the feats are only useful if the person taking them is NOT a rogue, and the opponent has high DEX and/or is unflankable.
To those in this thread saying "stop being selfish," YOU stop being selfish. This is a terrible feat for a rogue, so why don't YOU take it and help the rogue out?
I can choose to trip as my AOO. If I trip them, that target provokes an attack of opportunity from everyone within melee reach. not to mention they are now prone and to get up from prone is an attack of opportunity, my attack of opportunities can be trip attacks as well.
Just remember that they're considered prone until after they've finished standing up, so you can't use the AoO from standing to re-trip.
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I believe the foe loses his Dexterity bonus to all attacks until the beginning of your next turn, not just the ones that you make.That is fairly minor considering the character with the feat gets no benefit and that the trick requires a lot of feat and skill investment.
This feat requires the investment of one feat. It improves Improved Feint, and its prerequisite are the same as for Improved Feint, except that Greater Feint requires Improved Feint and a +6 BAB (which is hardly an "investment," since a +6 BAB is useful in of itself).
Improved Feint itself is already a really awesome feat. It's the Uncanny Dodger destroyer.
The feat is fine, when you are teaming with another character you are likely to inflict much more damage than just making a full attack even with flanking, you can still make your single most effective attack and get to negate your opponents dexterity and dodge AC as a bonus. You might consider taking duelist levels as a rogue or use a (mithral large) shield.
It is definately not a bad feat.
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In a game world where rogues have easy access to improved invisibility, why don't opponents have easy access to one of the many options available for detecting invisibility?I do think it's good to have options, and this is a good option but I think improved feint is still going to be the preferred route for most rogues. By 9th-11th level rogues start getting better access to magic and improved invisibility which sort of defeats both these options.You don't need to use Dazzling Display, you only have to take it to get access to Shattered Defenses. You can take a move action and then use a standard action to intimidate a single opponent into shaken status. If you beat their counter check by 5 or more the target is shaken into the following round meaning once your first attack hits you now have two full rounds to full attack with each additional attack producing sneak attack precision damage.
You are correct that this combo doesn't start to pay off until level 9 whereas Improved Feint can start to pay off as early as level 3. It would be nice, however, if the rogue had more than one feat tree option for setting up sneak attacks.
Why even worry about this feat or your 9-11 rogue maybe having access to improved invisibility, when you could just be a ninja and have it built into your class by level 8? Answer: You dont.
@ CynisWhere can i find this ninja? is it a prestige class? or is it a base class? ive looked and cannot find it. what book is this in... thanks in advance.
Why even worry about this feat or your 9-11 rogue maybe having access to improved invisibility, when you could just be a ninja and have it built into your class by level 8? Answer: You dont.
It's in Ultimate Combat. A playtest version is also available for download from Paizo (altho it may not be anymore).
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Perhaps because there might be two sneak attack based classes who can't get the flank?X1X
XO3
X2XLets say Character 1 is a rogue, character 2 is the fighter, and character three is an assassin. (or another class that grants sneak attack) The O is the poor schmuck in this sordid situation.
Greater feint allows character 3 a sneak attack he is otherwise untitled to.
It's either that or everyone plays the 5-foot step/circle-strafe to victory method.
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It's either that or everyone plays the 5-foot step/circle-strafe to victory method.
That's called "wolfpacking." That's how wolves take down caribou and other huge hooved animals that can kill them with one kick. Move in a constant circle around the animal, whoever is in front of it dodging away from its kicks and feinting to distract it, whoever is behind it lunging in to rip out the hamstrings and take it down.
It's like the best monster-fighting tactic ever. It's nifty that the rules support its effectiveness.
Improved Feint is a Rogue's best friend. You can have it from level 1 as a Human, and taking Skill Focus Bluff at level 3 really increases your chances of success at feinting, and you've only spent 3 feats. It should mean that around 80% of its hits are Sneak Attacks, at least at low levels. Admittedly, not so good against non-humanoids, worse against animals, and impossible against the unintelligent.
Greater Feint means all the rogue's attacks are Sneak Attack, and the trick here is the order of your attack.
Standard: attack
Move action: Greater Feint
next turn
Full Attack with SA.
Repeating this cycle means every second round is a full attack option with Sneak Attack.
Otherwise, Feint first, then take a standard attack with Sneak Attack every round.
Improved Feint is a Rogue's best friend. You can have it from level 1 as a Human, and taking Skill Focus Bluff at level 3 really increases your chances of success at feinting, and you've only spent 3 feats. It should mean that around 80% of its hits are Sneak Attacks, at least at low levels. Admittedly, not so good against non-humanoids, worse against animals, and impossible against the unintelligent.
Greater Feint means all the rogue's attacks are Sneak Attack, and the trick here is the order of your attack.
Standard: attack
Move action: Greater Feintnext turn
Full Attack with SA.
Repeating this cycle means every second round is a full attack option with Sneak Attack.
Otherwise, Feint first, then take a standard attack with Sneak Attack every round.
This doesn't work, the effect lasts till the beginning of your next turn, which means your opponent will regain it's dex before you attack, your own next attack excepted, but just the one..
"Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent
to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the
beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his
Dexterity bonus against your next attack"
This feat is not made to allow you to make full attacks against an opponents with a negated dexterity score, it is however not a bad feat, it can give other people a very significant bonus negating dexterity (and thus also dodge bonuses).
This doesn't work, the effect lasts till the beginning of your next turn, which means your opponent will regain it's dex before you attack, your own next attack excepted, but just the one..
"Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent
to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the
beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his
Dexterity bonus against your next attack"This feat is not made to allow you to make full attacks against an opponents with a negated dexterity score, it is however not a bad feat, it can give other people a very significant bonus negating dexterity (and thus also dodge bonuses).
Dang, remembered it wrong. Thought it was 'till your next attack.'
Greater Feint is good for a fighter with a rogue buddy.
Standard action Vital Strike, move action Greater Feint.
Your rogue buddy can now get Sneak Attack on all his attacks without having to feint himself.
Except, if he has a Fighter buddy in melee, shouldn't the Rogue already be flanking? I guess it's some benefit not to [i]have[i/] to flank. Especially if the enemy has buddies of his own.
How often do you use the 'Aid Another' action? Think of Greater Feint as kinda like that, except on steroids.... sometimes.
Improved is about making things easier for you.
Greater is for everyone else.
Improved makes a bunch of sense for a rogue because of the access to sneak attack. Greater is only as appealing to them as it is to every other class... perhaps marginally more so because they have more wish to take the pre-req.
Class I actually see getting the most use from it is the casters. Feint with a Whip from the second rank, followed by slapping a Cure on your fighter for your standard action could be valid. It's not like they were planning on taking too many Full Round actions / attacks anyway.
Alternately, if your rogue does take it, feint, followed by him getting out of the way of the disintegrate. Dex and dodge bonuses (dodge is sometimes denied when dex is denied) make a fair chunk of touch AC.
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Except, if he has a Fighter buddy in melee, shouldn't the Rogue already be flanking? I guess it's some benefit not to [i]have[i/] to flank. Especially if the enemy has buddies of his own.
Not every enemy can be flanked, not everyone can acheive flanking all the time.
Plus, if your rogue buddy is an archer, you just gave him an instant full attack sneak attack.
Except, if he has a Fighter buddy in melee, shouldn't the Rogue already be flanking? I guess it's some benefit not to [i]have[i/] to flank. Especially if the enemy has buddies of his own.Not every enemy can be flanked, not everyone can acheive flanking all the time.
Plus, if your rogue buddy is an archer, you just gave him an instant full attack sneak attack.
Also rogues can do very decent damage, except that their AB tends to be a bit low to actually get up to speed with a fighter's DPR, against a great deal of enemies negating a dex and dodge bonus will increase their DPR by alot, all the party benefits significantly and you still get to make your most lethal attack.
Except, if he has a Fighter buddy in melee, shouldn't the Rogue already be flanking? I guess it's some benefit not to have to flank. Especially if the enemy has buddies of his own.Not every enemy can be flanked, not everyone can acheive flanking all the time.
Plus, if your rogue buddy is an archer, you just gave him an instant full attack sneak attack.
Archer Rogues! Didn't think of that. Archer Rogues would love their Fighters for this.
Improved makes a bunch of sense for a rogue because of the access to sneak attack.
It only makes sense if for some reason you cannot flank (ie: your flank buddy who was nice enough to take greater feint for you is busy), and even then you're comparably well off just full attacking.
Plus, if your rogue buddy is an archer, you just gave him an instant full attack sneak attack.
Nice. Didn't think of that either.
So basically it's a rogue archer's best friend, as long as he doesn't have to take the feats himself.
If the Rogue is just using Feint to get their own SA dice, they are overall better off just getting a decently tricked out weapon and going full-attack - or even better, TWF. The numbers break up pretty quickly when you consider the average base chance to succeed at any given Feint, probably around 50-60%.
If you consider the additional to-hit chance for the party, Greater Feint is great in certain contexts. Probably not the best build for a Rogue or Sneak-Attacker to be. Probably worthwhile for someone in the party to have. I am playing a Snakebite Striker, and being able to Feint on the move adds a layer of utility to this feat line.
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I agree with whoever said that the feinting action economy is screwed up, and should be one step faster. I invented a couple of combat feats to make that work:
- Iaijutsu: one mental stat bonus [INT, WIS or CHA] is added to Initiative (combat)
- prereq: Fighter or Rogue 3rd, Quick Draw*
- Dancing Blade: you may feint in melee combat as a swift action (combat)
- prereq: Iaijutsu, Improved Feint
*I should add that Rogues in my game get Quick Draw as a bonus feat at 3rd level (and Fighters get a pile of bonus feats), and there are no dumb restrictions on what can be drawn (meaning it also works for wands, potions, etc.).
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This little feat chain has been a nice boon for the Rogues. Feinting fails often enough and enough critters are immune that I don't feel the ability to do it as a swift action is overpowered.
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This little feat chain has been a nice boon for the Rogues. Feinting fails often enough and enough critters are immune that I don't feel the ability to do it as a swift action is overpowered.
Or you could use actual rules to do the same with Moonlight Stalker Feint without throwing in house-rules to clutter up the game. (It's not that hard to get concealment between magic and/or smoke pellets.) Or use two-weapon feint and give up a single attack.
Not to be dismissive - but it sounds like your game is so chock full of house-rules that your weighing in on actual rules using your game as the baseline is mostly worthless. (There's nothing wrong with house-rules, but at a certain point it's no longer the same game.)
Thread necromancy to a post almost as old as the Core book.
Rise, chicken, rise!
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This little feat chain has been a nice boon for the Rogues. Feinting fails often enough and enough critters are immune that I don't feel the ability to do it as a swift action is overpowered.Or you could use actual rules to do the same with Moonlight Stalker Feint without throwing in house-rules to clutter up the game. (It's not that hard to get concealment between magic and/or smoke pellets.) Or use two-weapon feint and give up a single attack.
Not to be dismissive - but it sounds like your game is so chock full of house-rules that your weighing in on actual rules using your game as the baseline is mostly worthless. (There's nothing wrong with house-rules, but at a certain point it's no longer the same game.)
One of the biggest problems martials face in Pathfinder is not that certain effects cannot be achieved, but that they are too often hidden behind onerous prerequisites, in archetypes, or in long feat chains full of feat taxes. The feats you cite are a perfect illustration of this problem, actually, so thanks.
My opinion that feinting is "too slow" in Pathfinder has nothing to do with how I specifically fix the problem in my game. If you think the feats you cited are sufficient, then by all means, use them as-is.
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If I thought my feinting was too slow, I wouldn't want to add an extra round of throwing smoke pellets down before I could start using it.
I agree with whoever said that the feinting action economy is screwed up
It stops being a problem if you work with your party. Let someone else do Greater Feint and the rogue will get his full attack...
I don't like the idea of giving more and more power to one role until they can solo everything. Because it destroys the others' fun. Yes, I see you already typing the word 'caster', but one role supposedly being screwed up doesn't mean the others should be screwed up also.