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I have two questions regarding the Shield Master feat, and I was wondering what it was the designers intended:
Add your shield's shield bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was an enhancement bonus.
It says you add your shield bonus AS IF it were an enhancement bonus. Does this include the actual enhancement bonus the shield already has? A +1 light shield, for example, would have a shield bonus of +2. Would you add +2 to your attack and damage rolls, or would you only add +1?
Secondly, how does this interact with shields that are already enchanted as a weapon? Do they stack? Is the purpose to give shield users a bone? (Ie, would a +5 small steel shield enchanted as a +5 weapon give you a +12 weapon?)
:: Not touching this with a standard issue 10 foot pole! ::
:: Not touching this with a standard issue 10 foot pole! ::
Huh? I wasn't aware shields were such a controversial topic.
I have two questions regarding the Shield Master feat, and I was wondering what it was the designers intended:
Add your shield's shield bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was an enhancement bonus.It says you add your shield bonus AS IF it were an enhancement bonus. Does this include the actual enhancement bonus the shield already has? A +1 light shield, for example, would have a shield bonus of +2. Would you add +2 to your attack and damage rolls, or would you only add +1?
I've interpreted it as the entire shield bonus, including the enhancement bonus that one would have on the shield to increase its shield bonus.
Secondly, how does this interact with shields that are already enchanted as a weapon? Do they stack? Is the purpose to give shield users a bone? (Ie, would a +5 small steel shield enchanted as a +5 weapon give you a +12 weapon?)
As enhancement bonuses don't stack I would go with the higher bonus.
So in short, a light shield with a +1 enhancement bonus to the shield bonus would provide a +2 enhancement when used to attack with the Shield Master feat. However if that same shield had a +5 enhancement bonus to attack already, the Shield Master feat would leave it as +5 for it is a greater bonus than a +2
:: Not touching this with a standard issue 10 foot pole! ::Huh? I wasn't aware shields were such a controversial topic.
There was a thread a while back in which everyone and their uncle went around and around about this. It nearly ended with all participants agreeing to meet and shield-bash each other to death, just to be done with it.
There was a thread a while back in which everyone and their uncle went around and around about this. It nearly ended with all participants agreeing to meet and shield-bash each other to death, just to be done with it.:: Not touching this with a standard issue 10 foot pole! ::Huh? I wasn't aware shields were such a controversial topic.
uhhhh...oh, ok. I didn't read that. Did...ya know, one of the writers answer the question?
If you read the rules on a normal magic shield, it states the enhancement bonus to armor does not add to attack or damage with a shield bash. (There is a section on it in the PFSRD but I cannot figure out how to cut and paste from it. It is under "Magic Items" then "Armor" a little way down the page.)
I read this feat as overriding this rule. So a +5 shield would be +5 to hit and damage and you would not need to spend extra money to enchant the shield for further cost to give it a bonus to hit and damage.
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If you read the rules on a normal magic shield, it states the enhancement bonus to armor does not add to attack or damage with a shield bash. (There is a section on it in the PFSRD but I cannot figure out how to cut and paste from it. It is under "Magic Items" then "Armor" a little way down the page.)
I read this feat as overriding this rule. So a +5 shield would be +5 to hit and damage and you would not need to spend extra money to enchant the shield for further cost to give it a bonus to hit and damage.
That was how I read it. I didn't even consider another reading, the intent seemed so clear to me.
Also circumvents that 3.5 issue of 'So, my shield is +3 in terms of AC but I've also enchanted it as a +1 weapon...how does this costing work? And how the heck do I list this in a stat block?'
So then a +5 large steel shield acts as a +7 weapon?
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Nipping this in the bud.
In general, magic armor protects the wearer to a greater extent than nonmagical armor. Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses). All magic armor is also masterwork armor, reducing armor check penalties by 1.
A shield bonus is different from a magic shield enhancement bonus, though the two do stack.
Shield Master with a Heavy Steel Shield, for example, would give you a +2 to attack and damage with it. Regardless of whether it was a normal Heavy Steel Shield or a +5 Heavy Steel Shield.
The text is unfortunate in its wording. This feat was not intended to be a feat that would allow a Shield User to gain a +7 to attack and damage with the shield that is already giving him a +7 to Armor Class.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
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So then a +5 large steel shield acts as a +7 weapon?
Not the way I see it.
Per the PRD:
Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description).
So a +5 heavy steel shield provides a +7 bonus to AC for purposes of defense and a +2 bonus to Attack and Damage with Shield Mastery on a shield slam.
The next paragraph in the PRD states:
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
So if you also enchanted the shield as a weapon to +5 you would have an offhand weapon that grants a +7 bonus to AC at all times, while being able to shield bash with a +7 bonus to attack and damage. Not to mention that you enact a bull rush attempt in the process. The wielder must have a BAB of +11, take 4 feats, and spend 75,170 gp. A shield that grants a +2 bonus to AC and +7 to attack and damage rolls could be had for 25,000 gp less.
Note that the bashing special ability grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with a shield bash and costs a +1 defensive enhancement to add to the shield. In my opinion a more conservative yet effective purchase would be a +3/+2 large steel shield of bashing, which grants a +2 to AC, while bashing for +6 to attack and damage rolls. (Attack magical bonus listed first, I admit, we do need a convention here) The price tag here comes out at 27,170 gp. Still pricey, but attainable in my opinion.
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The next paragraph in the PRD states:A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
So if you also enchanted the shield as a weapon to +5 you would have an offhand weapon that grants a +7 bonus to AC at all times, while being able to shield bash with a +7 bonus to attack and damage. Not to mention that you enact a bull rush attempt in the process. The wielder must have a BAB of +11, take 4 feats, and spend 75,170 gp. A shield that grants a +2 bonus to AC and +7 to attack and damage rolls could be had for 25,000 gp less.
Small correction. The bonus you get from Shield Master is to be used as if it were an enhancement bonus. It would not stack with the enhancement bonus you acquired from making your shield into a magic weapon.
Think of it this way. The Shield Master feat allows the user to treat their Shield as if it were enhanced as a +X Magic Weapon, where X is 1 for a Light Shield/Buckler, 2 for a Heavy Shield, and 4 for a Tower Shield.
Much like the Improved Critical feat does what Keen could do for you, the Shield Master feat does what enchanting your shield as a weapon could do for you.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Shield Master feat does what enchanting your shield as a weapon could do for you.
Enhancing or imbuing your shield, please. Unless your shield is somehow vulnerable to mind-affecting spells? C'mon, a god of knowledge should at least use proper game terminology!
The next paragraph in the PRD states:A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
So if you also enchanted the shield as a weapon to +5 you would have an offhand weapon that grants a +7 bonus to AC at all times, while being able to shield bash with a +7 bonus to attack and damage. Not to mention that you enact a bull rush attempt in the process. The wielder must have a BAB of +11, take 4 feats, and spend 75,170 gp. A shield that grants a +2 bonus to AC and +7 to attack and damage rolls could be had for 25,000 gp less.
Small correction. The bonus you get from Shield Master is to be used as if it were an enhancement bonus. It would not stack with the enhancement bonus you acquired from making your shield into a magic weapon.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
See, I'm not sure that that's correct, because then, by the time you could get it, that part of the feat would be pointless in 99% of the game it'd be played in. If you shield bash that often, you've probably already got at least a +2 weapon enhancement on the shield by that level. A +5 heavy steel shield adds a +7 shield bonus to your ac. The enhancement bonus applies to your shield, not directly to your armor class, which is why an enhanced shield works with enhanced armor. It's not an enhancement bonus to your ac. So, overall, since it applies as a shield bonus, I'd think it would turn it into a +7 weapon, or, at least, if the shield needs to be enchanted separately as a weapon, the +2 base shield bonus the shield grants would stack with the normal enhancement bonus the shield would receive as a weapon because, again, what'd be the point of the feat?
Sorry to resurrect an old argument guys. Any way we could get an official ruling on this?
Ading to the confusion :P assuming shield master adds you shield bounus to attack and damage, does it also add the bonus from shield focus and greater shield focus?
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Think of it this way. The Shield Master feat allows the user to treat their Shield as if it were enhanced as a +X Magic Weapon, where X is 1 for a Light Shield/Buckler, 2 for a Heavy Shield, and 4 for a Tower Shield.Much like the Improved Critical feat does what Keen could do for you, the Shield Master feat does what enchanting your shield as a weapon could do for you.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Thank you for the clarification. I cannot however resist the temptation to correct your correction. I am fairly certain that you cannot use a tower shield as a weapon in any circumstance.
PRD:
Shield, Tower: This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn. When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see Combat). The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.
When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield's encumbrance.
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Thank you for the clarification. I cannot however resist the temptation to correct your correction. I am fairly certain that you cannot use a tower shield as a weapon in any circumstance.
PRD:
Shield, Tower: This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn. When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see Combat). The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield's encumbrance.
You are correct. You cannot normally bash with a tower shield.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
:: Not touching this with a standard issue 10 foot pole! ::
LOL When I first went through this post I thought you had a really odd post to start off with... Now I see the wisdom and would like to add... "Run Away!! Run Away!!"
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That is a confusing rule. Is it +7 to hit and +7 to damage in the example? +2 to hit and +7 to damage?
The more I read this thread over, the more confused I get ....
When I posted my example above, I was using incorrect information. The magical attack enhancement imbued upon a shield does not stack with the bonus to attack and damage granted by the shield mastery feat.
My example is reposted below for purposes of clarity with the numbers changed to reflect reality. Sorry again for misleading you.
So if you also enchanted a heavy steel shield as a weapon to +5 as well as defensively to a +5 you would have an offhand weapon that grants a +7 bonus to AC at all times, while being able to shield bash with a +5 bonus to attack and damage. Not to mention that you enact a bull rush attempt in the process. The wielder must have a BAB of +11, take 4 feats, and spend 75,170 gp. A shield that grants a +2 bonus to AC and +5 to attack and damage rolls could be had for 25,000 gp less.
Note that the bashing special ability grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with a shield bash and costs a +1 defensive enhancement to add to the shield. In my opinion a more conservative yet effective purchase would be a +3/+2 large steel shield of bashing, which grants a +4 to AC, while bashing for +4 to attack and damage rolls. (Attack magical bonus listed first, I admit, we do need a convention here) The price tag here comes out at 27,170 gp. Still pricey, but attainable in my opinion.
So a normal ordinary large steel shield gains a +2 to attack and +2 to damage with the shield mastery feat. A shield enchanted for defense (+1 to +5) also recieves a +2 to attack and damage with the feat. This does not stack with any enchantments you magically apply to the shields offenses.
The value in the feat is that enchanting a shield both offensively and defensively gets very expensive. When you buy that shiny new +3 shield of bashing at 11th level there is no need to spend an additional 8,000 gp to enhance it to +2 offensively if you have the shield mastery feat. Not to mention that it creates a bull rush attempt when you shield bash.
Does Shield Focus improve your shield bonus for the purposes of Shield Master?
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Does Shield Focus improve your shield bonus for the purposes of Shield Master?
Not in my opinion since the Shield Focus feat grants a bonus to AC when using a shield, while the Shield Mastery converts a shield's shield bonus to a bonus to attack and damage.
It's a subtle difference in wording, but in an RPG it usually is.
*sigh* So, sorry I resurrected an old argument (man do I not remember that one)....Any chance we could get an FAQ or errata on this?
Right, any official word on this?
As well as any hint if the wording on this (/other rules sections invoked/implied by this Feat) will be edited for clarity? I'm not sure what positive value exists by so vaguely wording things. Brevity is a clarity of it's own, of course, but using precise terms with no room for confusion doesn't seem like it would really need much more word-count...????
Does Shield Focus improve your shield bonus for the purposes of Shield Master?Not in my opinion since the Shield Focus feat grants a bonus to AC when using a shield, while the Shield Mastery converts a shield's shield bonus to a bonus to attack and damage.
It's a subtle difference in wording, but in an RPG it usually is.
Just throwing out there:
"Benefit: Increase the AC bonus granted by any shield you are using by 1."
Which means the shield's bonus is actually increased. Since critting with a ray does extra damage of the type the ray normally does it stands to reason the type of AC bonus granted here is also a Shield bonus since it is increasing an existing thing.
Which means for you using a heavy shield the shield bonus would be a +3.
SO using both Shield Focus and Greater Shield Focus would give you a +4 shield bonus total.
I really don't see this as an insane amount either since it is still 7 feats (significant even for a fighter) of which only a 8th level fighter can take one of (greater shield focus), cannot be done at all before 11th level, and "only" gives you a +4 enchancement bonus to hit and damage (compared to the weapon you could have as an 11th level fighter).
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EDIT: Last time they let us all run out of steam until some people decided they didn't want to post on the Paizo boards anymore and proceeded to do stuff they shouldn't.
If you read the rules on a normal magic shield, it states the enhancement bonus to armor does not add to attack or damage with a shield bash. (There is a section on it in the PFSRD but I cannot figure out how to cut and paste from it. It is under "Magic Items" then "Armor" a little way down the page.)
I read this feat as overriding this rule. So a +5 shield would be +5 to hit and damage and you would not need to spend extra money to enchant the shield for further cost to give it a bonus to hit and damage.
+1
Hard to understand feat.
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The feat states that it adds the shield bonus to attack and damage as if it were an enhancement bonus.
Shield enhancement bonus != shield bonus.
If they wanted to do what a lot of people are claiming, it would have been *very* simple to write.
"Benefit: The shield's enhancement bonus applies to attack and damage.
Normal: A shield's enhancement bonus does not apply to attack and damage."
I am 99.9% confident that this feat is just to give a shield-basher an extra +2 to hit and damage (if heavy) or +1 to hit and damage (if light or buckler). It is like Weapon Spec for the shield.
Gaining the same enhancement bonus to attack and damage as you do to boosting AC is way too powerful for one feat, imo, and doesn't even fit the wording of the feat.
The feat states that it adds the shield bonus to attack and damage as if it were an enhancement bonus.
Shield enhancement bonus != shield bonus.
If they wanted to do what a lot of people are claiming, it would have been *very* simple to write.
"Benefit: The shield's enhancement bonus applies to attack and damage.
Normal: A shield's enhancement bonus does not apply to attack and damage."I am 99.9% confident that this feat is just to give a shield-basher an extra +2 to hit and damage (if heavy) or +1 to hit and damage (if light or buckler). It is like Weapon Spec for the shield.
Gaining the same enhancement bonus to attack and damage as you do to boosting AC is way too powerful for one feat, imo, and doesn't even fit the wording of the feat.
See, that'd make it SO useless. If you have that many shield bash feats, your shield has probably got a better weapon enhancement bonus than 1 or 2 by then. What would be the point? I'd personally say you apply the entire (that means enhancement as well) bonus to attack and defense (meaning it wouldn't stack with the an existing enhancement bonus)or you add the base shield bonus to the weapon enhancement bonus (meaning a heavy steel shield with a +5 enhancement bonus as a shield and a +4 enhancement bonus as a weapon adds 6 to your attack and damage rolls). I mean, that one way of going above 5 isn't exactly game breaking.
Sidenote: It cracks me up when you post as both aliases. You should argue with yourself just to see if people catch on, hehe.
Could we please get some clarification here from Jason or someone at Paizo as to the effect and intent of this feat?
Thanks
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The feat states that it adds the shield bonus to attack and damage as if it were an enhancement bonus.
Shield enhancement bonus != shield bonus.
If they wanted to do what a lot of people are claiming, it would have been *very* simple to write.
"Benefit: The shield's enhancement bonus applies to attack and damage.
Normal: A shield's enhancement bonus does not apply to attack and damage."I am 99.9% confident that this feat is just to give a shield-basher an extra +2 to hit and damage (if heavy) or +1 to hit and damage (if light or buckler). It is like Weapon Spec for the shield.
Gaining the same enhancement bonus to attack and damage as you do to boosting AC is way too powerful for one feat, imo, and doesn't even fit the wording of the feat.
See, that'd make it SO useless. If you have that many shield bash feats, your shield has probably got a better weapon enhancement bonus than 1 or 2 by then. What would be the point? I'd personally say you apply the entire (that means enhancement as well) bonus to attack and defense (meaning it wouldn't stack with the an existing enhancement bonus)or you add the base shield bonus to the weapon enhancement bonus (meaning a heavy steel shield with a +5 enhancement bonus as a shield and a +4 enhancement bonus as a weapon adds 6 to your attack and damage rolls). I mean, that one way of going above 5 isn't exactly game breaking.
Sidenote: It cracks me up when you post as both aliases. You should argue with yourself just to see if people catch on, hehe.
I try to only post as the other one when I am certain on a point. I keep this one around for debate. ;)
As it stands, I think it's perfectly useful. For it to do what you are saying makes it better than a weapon at that point.
Think about it. A Bashing Spiked heavy shield does 2d6 points of damage. This is a 1-handed shield that can do as much as a greatsword. The enhancement bonus for an armor/shield is half the cost of enhancing a weapon.
So with this one feat, not only will you get that nice +7 bonus to your armor by having a +5 shield, but you get to use it as (effectively) a +5 greatsword? for half the cost of enhancing it? Is there a feat that allows the longsword fighter to let his +5 longsword give him +5 to his armor class at no penalty?
Heck, there'd be no point in two-weapon fighting with a non-shield if this were the case. As soon as you get the feat, not only is your shield doing just as much damage as a +5 greatsword, but you get the +7 AC boost too!
Giving it a +2 to attack or damage, like I think it is, is still an effective free 8,000 GP enhancement. Since, normally, you need to enhance a shield as a weapon separately for it to get a bonus to attack and damage.
Am I missing somethig? acording to the weapons chart a medium spiked shield heavy does 1d6 of dmg where are you getting the extra d6?
For curiosity's sake,
how are Pathfinder Society GMs treating this?
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Am I missing somethig? acording to the weapons chart a medium spiked shield heavy does 1d6 of dmg where are you getting the extra d6?
Spiked Heavy Shield with the Bashing enhancement. Spiked increases the effective damage a shield does by one size category. Bashing increases it as if it were two size categories larger. They stack. A normal heavy shield is 1d4. A spiked heavy shield is 1d6. A bashing spiked heavy shield is 2d6.
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Again, I'm not sure how anyone can think that it's purpose is to give you the 'total' shield + shield enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. There would be *no* reason to ever play a dual-wielder with a non-shield. Really. None.
Take a guy with whatever in his main hand, and a shield in his off hand. He uses a spiked +5 Bashing Heavy Shield. 2d6+half Str damage (offhand) and +7 AC. Pretty nice.
Now take the feat.
It should now give +5 to hit and damage? Basically a +5 weapon? If assuming that 'shield bonus' means 'shield enhancement bonus but not the regular shield bonus' which doesn't even make sense. It'd be more understandable to assume it meant 'shield bonus + shield enhancement bonus', but then that's basically a free +7 weapon which is even crazier.
How do you think this is what the feat means? It is only 36,000 to make a +5 Bashing shield, compared to 50,000 for a normal +5 weapon (72,000 if you want an effective +6 like the +5 Bashing shield).
So already, you save 14,000. And you think that not only you should gain the benefits of the +7 armor bonus from it being a high quality shield, you think it should function as a +5 weapon as well? For one feat? On a shield that can do 2d6 base damage?
Tell me, why would I *not* do this when dual-wielding? Why would I ever use a non-shield? Heck, why not just put a shield in both hands? Two +5 Bashing Shields? It would only cost me 72,000 GP overall, as opposed to 100,000 for two +5 weapons. Not to mention that I get the sweet +7 bonus to my AC! Who cares if they don't stack on that, they're both doing the damage of greatswords in each hand! :D
(Karui is not sure whether or not you can dual-wield shields and is too lazy to look. The point still stands even if you cannot.)
No other feat gives so great a benefit. The feat clearly says you get your shield bonus as an effective enhancement to attack and damage. So there are only *two* arguments anyways. You either think:
A. The base shield bonus. +2 from Heavy, +1 from Light/Buckler.
B. The total shield + shield enhancement bonus. On the +5 Heavy Shield, that'd be +7.
Thinking that a single feat should let your awesome shield suddenly give a CRAZY boost to attack and damage is just nuts.
If I am right, if it is A, you think it's not worth it? Weapon Specialization does the exact same thing. This just does it for shields.
I don't think I can make this any clearer, but I'll wait for official word as well.
Karui says good stuff.
One aspect of the Feat not being mentioned (and the one emphasized in the Feat Table)
is that it ELIMINATES 2WF PENALTIES for Shields, in other words a +2 attack bonus.
I have no idea if this would apply to a 'main-hand' Spiked Shield in a dual Shield 2WF set-up.
Given this signifigant other bonus, I think going with the 'lesser' interpretation of BASE Shield Bonus only is more appropriate. Indeed, with Shield Focus/GFS increasing the "Base" Shield Bonus, quite signifigant benefits are STILL potentially achievable, though requiring one to complete the entire "Shield" Feat Chain.
But the current RAW *DOESN'T* provide clear guidance on this topic,
so I again request that this be updated, preferably along the lines of the 'lesser' interpretation outlined above.
Karui, I'm inclined to agree with you that the total shield bonus probably does not apply as an enhancement bonus. I do, however, think that, if only the base shield bonus applies as an enhancement bonus, then it must stack with any weapon enhancement bonuses you give the shield. namely, a heavy steel shield enhanced as BOTH a +5 weapon AND a +5 shield get's a +7 to attack and damage. I mean, really, that's not exactly game-breaking. Shield wielding already sucks, and is extremely expensive and feat-intensive, despite being the most practical weapon style. I'm inclined to think the writers threw the sword-and-board fighter a bone with this one, and really, despite the +5 limit to weapons, I don't think a +7 in this one occasional circumstance is going to be a big deal.
Remember, when you compare a +5 shield of bashing to a greatsword, it's a +5 greatsword of cleaving, or something similar you should be looking at. And you can't compare it to a shield enchanted as both a +5 shield and a +5 weapon, because, at 11, there's no way these guys both have +5 shields, armor, and weaponry, unless their DM is really freeflowing with the cash and magic items. I don't want to get wealth by levels tables out, but the shield guy has 3 things to split his cash between. He's also done less damage, and hit less often over the course of 11 levels, for what has probably been a minor boost to AC. I wonder if the idea behind shield mastery was to make it a capstone of sorts, hence making shield fighters good again.
Honestly, an official ruling on this would be great at this point, as it's just going to go around in circles.
@Velderan: Right, but that reading would completely not be compatable with the RAW.
As is (Enhancement plus's not stacking), with regards to Wpn Enhancements you of course are pushed towards putting just a +1 on the Shield Spike and applying Special Enhancements from that point (Flaming, Keen, etc) since those don't have the stacking problem. That seems like a pretty equitable out-come, actually.
I'm not so sure about your contention that Shield Wielding is 'more expensive', given this Feat: Shield Enhancements are almost twice as cheap as Weapon Enhancements, so once you can convert them (with this Feat), you're SAVING money even WITH 'eating' a +1 on the Shield Spike.
@Velderan: Right, but that reading would completely not be compatable with the RAW.
As is (Enhancement plus's not stacking), with regards to Wpn Enhancements you of course are pushed towards putting just a +1 on the Shield Spike and applying Special Enhancements from that point (Flaming, Keen, etc) since those don't have the stacking problem. That seems like a pretty equitable out-come, actually.I'm not so sure about your contention that Shield Wielding is 'more expensive', given this Feat: Shield Enhancements are almost twice as cheap as Weapon Enhancements, so once you can convert them (with this Feat), you're SAVING money even WITH 'eating' a +1 on the Shield Spike.
Right, but RAW, the shield bonus includes the enhancement bonus, which would give a free +7 weapon. The problem is that there are two valid interpretations, one too strong, and one too weak, so I'm assuming it's the most balanced option.
I was saying shield wielding, as it is without this feat, is more expensive, which is why I feel the feat is throwing them a bone.
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Right, but RAW, the shield bonus includes the enhancement bonus, which would give a free +7 weapon. The problem is that there are two valid interpretations, one too strong, and one too weak, so I'm assuming it's the most balanced option.I was saying shield wielding, as it is without this feat, is more expensive, which is why I feel the feat is throwing them a bone.
Shield Bonus and Shield Enhancement Bonus are two different types of bonuses, and both are labeled individually in the magic items chapter. So, by RAW, when something says 'Shield Bonus' they mean the base shield bonus. If they meant both, it would say both.
This feat is great as is. Not only are you getting rid of the TWF penalty (a -2 to hit) but you get a +1 or +2 bonus to attack and damage. So with a heavy shield, an overall +4 to the attack roll and +2 to the damage.
How is that weak? It's Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, and ANOTHER +2 to attack all in ONE feat. :)
@Karui Kage:
Perhaps sense the most a magic item can be worth pre-epic is 200k gp? And this feat is designed to help with that, perhaps?
Again I really would like Jason or someone to help explain the feat.
I was going to agree with Karui... but then I just highlighted the feat on my screen and hit "delete" instead. Problem solved!
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Right, but RAW, the shield bonus includes the enhancement bonus, which would give a free +7 weapon. The problem is that there are two valid interpretations, one too strong, and one too weak, so I'm assuming it's the most balanced option.I was saying shield wielding, as it is without this feat, is more expensive, which is why I feel the feat is throwing them a bone.
Shield Bonus and Shield Enhancement Bonus are two different types of bonuses, and both are labeled individually in the magic items chapter. So, by RAW, when something says 'Shield Bonus' they mean the base shield bonus. If they meant both, it would say both.
This feat is great as is. Not only are you getting rid of the TWF penalty (a -2 to hit) but you get a +1 or +2 bonus to attack and damage. So with a heavy shield, an overall +4 to the attack roll and +2 to the damage.
How is that weak? It's Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, and ANOTHER +2 to attack all in ONE feat. :)
The normal penalty for TWF with a heavy shield would be -4 since the heavy shield isn't a light weapon. The problem would be, that you'd still incure the -4 penalty on on-hand attacks, unless those are removed, too.
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The normal penalty for TWF with a heavy shield would be -4 since the heavy shield isn't a light weapon. The problem would be, that you'd still incure the -4 penalty on on-hand attacks, unless those are removed, too.
Quite true, so an even BIGGER bonus too. The fact that the on-hand penalties remain is meh, to me, you're still getting an effective +5 or +6 bonus to the shield hand, plus some extra damage. :)
I think part of the confusion here is that NPC writeups in 3.5 had shield bonus listed as one value -- you didn't see a shield's bonus to AC adjacent to the shield's magical shield enhancement bonus to AC; you'd see the shield bonus as one value.
But with the wording the way it is, I can see a balance argument (+7 shields) versus a wording argument (shield bonus is the addition of the shield's non-magical bonus to AC plus magical enhancement bonus to AC) as being an apples versus oranges debate. Perhaps we should evaluate them independently?
For the balance argument, it's hard to test these kind of things without playtesting. While a +7 heavy spiked shield sounds impressive, is it more impressive than a +5 bastard sword? Yes, you'd be able to pierce DR faster, and yes, PCs shouldn't have access to weapons with an enhancement bonus above +5. But the base weapon damage of a +7 heavy spiked shield (10.5) is equal to that of a +5 bastard sword (10.5). A +6 spiked light shield (8.5 average damage) would be equivalent to a +5 short sword (8.5 average damage). For heavy spiked shield/bastard sword, both are one-handed weapons, but the requirements are a bit different. The shield requires Shield Master *and* Shield Slam *and* Improved Shield Bash *and* Two-Weapon Fighting *and* base attack bonus +11. The sword requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency and base attack bonus +1. You can get the shield much cheaper than the weapon (25k versus 50k). But how much gold are all the extra prereq feats worth? I dunno q: I think this is where playtesting comes in. . .
For the wording argument: when someone in 3.5 would lose their shield bonus, they'd lose the non-magical, "regular" bonus from the shield and they'd lose the magical enhancement bonus to AC from the shield. I'd imagine the same holds true in PF. See the Pinpoint Targeting feat -- it refers to just "shield bonus" -- but do you really think it's just lowering the non-magical AC granted by the shield?