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At GenCon a rules question came up regarding a low level (1-3) Ranger or Paladin using a CLW scroll. My table DM ruled that my Ranger 1 could not use the scroll. During a break, I appealed the ruling to HQ. They looked for Josh, but he was not available. HQ ruling went something like this:
Rangers do not have a spell list until they get to 4th level, therefore they can not use scrolls of CLW. The spell must be on your 'spell list'.
I disagreed with the ruling, but played the rest of the con by it. I believe a Ranger (or Paladin) does have a spell list at 1st level, and they are just not able to cast any spells from it.
Any clarification would be helpful. Thanks!
-Swiftbrook
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According to the rules on page 490 of the PRPG:
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
* The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
* The user must have the spell on her class list.
* The user must have the requisite ability score.If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
And then in the Ranger listing:
Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his ranger level – 3.
and
Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3.
Prior to level 4, Paladins and Rangers have no caster level. Beginning at level 4, they can use divine scrolls per the rules above because they now have a caster level of level - 3. So, yes, this means prior to level 4, Paladins and Rangers cannot use scrolls.
EDIT 11/3/09: Removed a throw-away reference to wands that was incorrect.
Are you sure about that wand part? PRD seems to disagree.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Edit: Too lazy to make a new post. My argument against therealthom's ruling has been bolded.
Are you sure about that wand part? PRD seems to disagree.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
(Bold emphasis mine.) I would rule they can't use wands until they can cast spells.
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(Bold emphasis mine.) I would rule they can't use wands until they can cast spells.Are you sure about that wand part? PRD seems to disagree.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
There is no need to rule anything on this little nugget. The rules are quite clear as is: Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.
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So the question to Josh then is:
Are you saying that the rule is wrong in the rulebook and you are changing it?
Robyn
There is no need to rule anything on this little nugget. The rules are quite clear as is: Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.(Bold emphasis mine.) I would rule they can't use wands until they can cast spells.Are you sure about that wand part? PRD seems to disagree.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
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Josh needs to jump back in here and speak to the specific point because this thread is getting cited elsewhere as an official ruling. As pointed out, what Josh said contradicts something clearly stated in the rules as written, which I'm not sure he intended. If so, then it would be helpful for him to state outright that the rule book is wrong and for the text to be amended in the errata.
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Josh's post above would be called per incuriam if it were an English legal judgment. This is a way to show that an apparently binding ruling should not stand as precedent for future cases because the judge made a decision without having relevant binding law cited to him. In other words, the judge said something, without having been made aware of the existence of law which would suggest otherwise.
Josh is relying on the text of the activating scrolls section of the rules and extrapolating from there to wands (as an aside), without the benefit of the text on activating wands, which is then cited later in the thread. (With my lawyer hat on, the wands comment is also obiter dicta, words which are not required to answer the question asked, as the question was about scrolls).
That Josh said "(or wands for that matter)" is not very strong evidence that he has considered the text on activating wands and ruled that it is in error, and there is no support for that conclusion in the rest of his post. So I, for one, am happy to continue to rule that Paladins and Rangers can activate wands (but not scrolls) at 1st-3rd level.
Strike the wand comment. It has no bearing on the scroll discussion and stands as written.
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Josh's post above would be called per incuriam if it were an English legal judgment. This is a way to show that an apparently binding ruling should not stand as precedent for future cases because the judge made a decision without having relevant binding law cited to him.
That's what we thought. We just wanted him to spell it out so we could answer someone who was relying on Josh's words, parenthetical as they were. And can I say that I totally love you bustin' out the actual rules lawyer in you. It made me smile.
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Don't forget that, even without a caster level, a low-level Ranger or Paladin could still use the Use Magic Device skill to activate that scroll.
Whether a 1st-level Ranger or Paladin would actually invest in that skill is another matter, given that they're only 3 levels away from having their own spells.
I can see the situation where a character is multi-classed RogueX/Ranger1-3, since those two classes have always been an overlapping combination, and the Rogue picked up the skill early on as a class skill.
There could also be an old-school player out there, wantng to replicate his favourite 1st-Edition Ranger PC, Rangers in that edition having both arcane and divine spells.
....UMDing a scroll is a dc 20+scroll caster level check. So, you're looking at checks of 21, 23,25....Rather high DCs for a low level character. Especially without even having it as a class skill.
I have a buddy that has a half-elf paladin who took dangerously curious and skill focus UMD. He is sitting at (I think) a +11 at 1st. that's 50/50 for a first level spell. (Cha+3, SkFo+3, Trained+3, Rank+1, Trait+1)
I don't think you burn the scroll if you fail the check, do you? If not, casting in combat could be relatively ineffective. Out of combat, however, you can try it till you get it. As long as you put at least 1 rank in it, that is.
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....UMDing a scroll is a dc 20+scroll caster level check. So, you're looking at checks of 21, 23,25....Rather high DCs for a low level character. Especially without even having it as a class skill.
I have a buddy that has a half-elf paladin who took dangerously curious and skill focus UMD. He is sitting at (I think) a +11 at 1st. that's 50/50 for a first level spell. (Cha+3, SkFo+3, Trained+3, Rank+1, Trait+1)
I don't think you burn the scroll if you fail the check, do you? If not, casting in combat could be relatively ineffective. Out of combat, however, you can try it till you get it. As long as you put at least 1 rank in it, that is.
Paladins don't have UMD as a class skill, his bonus should be +8 not +11. Secondly the scroll WOULD get used as a part of the action to cast it. Since a scroll is used when activated (whether it is a success or not) you would lose the scroll.
Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.
Thirdly, you can have negative consequences when (DM's choice I believe) if you failed the Caster Level check to activate the scroll.
Edit: Didn't realize "Dangerously Curious" was a trait... looking it up, probably gives UMD as a class skill, doesn't it?
....UMDing a scroll is a dc 20+scroll caster level check. So, you're looking at checks of 21, 23,25....Rather high DCs for a low level character. Especially without even having it as a class skill.
I have a buddy that has a half-elf paladin who took dangerously curious and skill focus UMD. He is sitting at (I think) a +11 at 1st. that's 50/50 for a first level spell. (Cha+3, SkFo+3, Trained+3, Rank+1, Trait+1)
I don't think you burn the scroll if you fail the check, do you? If not, casting in combat could be relatively ineffective. Out of combat, however, you can try it till you get it. As long as you put at least 1 rank in it, that is.
Paladins don't have UMD as a class skill, his bonus should be +8 not +11. Secondly the scroll WOULD get used as a part of the action to cast it. Since a scroll is used when activated (whether it is a success or not) you would lose the scroll.
Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.Thirdly, you can have negative consequences when (DM's choice I believe) if you failed the Caster Level check to activate the scroll.
Edit: Didn't realize "Dangerously Curious" was a trait... looking it up, probably gives UMD as a class skill, doesn't it?
Okay, I didn't realize that it got expended. I don't play UMDers a lot, if at all.
Re: Edit, yes
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....UMDing a scroll is a dc 20+scroll caster level check. So, you're looking at checks of 21, 23,25....Rather high DCs for a low level character. Especially without even having it as a class skill.
I have a buddy that has a half-elf paladin who took dangerously curious and skill focus UMD. He is sitting at (I think) a +11 at 1st. that's 50/50 for a first level spell. (Cha+3, SkFo+3, Trained+3, Rank+1, Trait+1)
I don't think you burn the scroll if you fail the check, do you? If not, casting in combat could be relatively ineffective. Out of combat, however, you can try it till you get it. As long as you put at least 1 rank in it, that is.
Paladins don't have UMD as a class skill, his bonus should be +8 not +11. Secondly the scroll WOULD get used as a part of the action to cast it. Since a scroll is used when activated (whether it is a success or not) you would lose the scroll.
Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.Thirdly, you can have negative consequences when (DM's choice I believe) if you failed the Caster Level check to activate the scroll.
Edit: Didn't realize "Dangerously Curious" was a trait... looking it up, probably gives UMD as a class skill, doesn't it?
I am really surprised the Rules Lawyers haven't jumped all over this thread by now. They must be off arguing politics or religion...
Page 109 of the PFRPG states:
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you
must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use
Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a
particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal
to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to
cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a
scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the
appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score
in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a
separate Use Magic Device check.
This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion
magic items.
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to
use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class
spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if
you had a particular spell on your class spell list.
Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part
of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.
Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while
attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t
try to activate that item again for 24 hours.
Since "Try Again" is an option, it stands to reason that the scroll is not consumed. Nowhere does it explicitly state a scroll or charge is expended on a failed attempt. The only time there are negative consequences is when there's an attempt to activate blindly.
What about if you are a rogue with the Major Magic rogue talent? If my rogue can cast magic missile, can he also use a wand of magic missile (not with UMD)?
No he does not cast a spell, he uses a spell like ablity. He has no ablity to cast spells and is not a caster
relevant text
Minor Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability
Major Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level.