I personally would really like to see psionics take a bit of a twist for the strange. It would be really cool to see Psionic characters who have more in common with King Mob, Ragged Robin and Lord Fanny, than with Conan.
Who are those guys?
Regarding the psionics/magic transparency. I'd like to see a psionics system that is really different enough from arcane and divine magic as to appear as its own thing, and not just as a third kind of magic. If that can be achieved there would not be a need for a psionics/magic transparency rule because both systems achieve mostly different things in different ways. Psionics that basically are just another way of doing magic, I wouldn't care much for that.
I liked Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook skills-and-feats method, it made for something different; I have never player with it though, so I can't say how it works out in real game play.
I'm tempted to give my own suggestions for this, but I keep getting stuck on the thought that Paizo dislikes psionics for not preferring the power point system. It irritates me to see, "they don't like the current mechanics for psionics," transformed into, "they don't like the concept of psionics." I trust Paizo to make psionics that I might like because I am quite sure that from their posts that they actually like the concept of psionics.
Personally I would really dislike seeing Paizo adopt the current system (even if it were updated slightly) as the "official" system for Pathfinder because, at that point, I would be expecting close to nothing as far as seeing psionics in Paizo's products (I could definitely be off with this guess, but given the issues I perceive, this is the most likely result I imagine).
Overall I am happy to see Dreamscarred Press doing this and I will be quite interested in seeing the final results. I'm pretty sure anything I would have commented on would be covered by other posters and the resulting product will be exceptional.
The psionic disciplines never really "grabbed" me the way that spell schools did.
A necromancer is a drab, sickly fellow who doesn't much like the living. An evoker is loud, flamboyantly dressed, and probably sports a big manly beard. A diviner seems airy and distant, overly mystical. These are stereotypes, but stereotypes play a big part in how I define a character, if only by contrast.
What is an "egoist"? How is he different from the other psions? If I met someone whom I knew was a psion, what trapping would make me peg him for a practitioner of psychometabolism?
Those questions are rhetorical. I'm positive that several, wonderful books have been written about psionics which go into greater detail and try to flesh these archetypes out. However, if you re-released a Pathfinder-compatible psionics retool, this will be the first brush that many gamers have had with these ideas since Complete Psionic.
To be honest, my first thought on coming in here was "Remove whatever those weird psion disciplines were. Just have a CHA-based telepath, a WIS-based diviner/insight guy, and an INT-base kinesis guy." Which just goes to show.
In the long run, though, I think it would be a much better change flesh out, better define, and expand upon those archetypes so that they DO grab the imagination. You might even extend the same principles to the wilder (my personal favorite) and/or the psychic warrior.
I'm tempted to give my own suggestions for this, but I keep getting stuck on the thought that Paizo dislikes psionics for not preferring the power point system. It irritates me to see, "they don't like the current mechanics for psionics," transformed into, "they don't like the concept of psionics." I trust Paizo to make psionics that I might like because I am quite sure that from their posts that they actually like the concept of psionics.
Personally I would really dislike seeing Paizo adopt the current system (even if it were updated slightly) as the "official" system for Pathfinder because, at that point, I would be expecting close to nothing as far as seeing psionics in Paizo's products (I could definitely be off with this guess, but given the issues I perceive, this is the most likely result I imagine).
Overall I am happy to see Dreamscarred Press doing this and I will be quite interested in seeing the final results. I'm pretty sure anything I would have commented on would be covered by other posters and the resulting product will be exceptional.
Blazej,
You post is well taken and had a strong effect on how I'm looking at this. I was pretty excited yesterday, but today I have a lot of misgivings. You helped give me some clarity on why that is.
I just got done writing two very hard posts. (One of them isn't relevant, because I'm probably just taking something too personally.)
The other post however was in response to something Dreamscarred said regarding the suggestion of incorporating Sin Magic (from Runelords) with psionics. In brief, they said that was introducing Christianity into roleplaying as well as being Divine Magic, and neither played any part of psionics.
And if you're familiar with the actual source material, that's just not true in the context of the suggestion. Sin Magic is neither Christian nor Divine. Nor is it all that crazy of a notion that psionics might have a role with the practice of harvesting emotion from souls to use as a fuel source.
However, I can't fault them for not knowing all the ins and outs of the campaign setting. But the valid reason for not doing it is that it's part of Golarion's Intellectual Property (Sin Magic, not the 7 Deadly Sins themselves). Without a special license from Paizo, they can't do it in any case. However to dismiss it as being Christian without asking any questions or seeking clarification, didn't suggest to me any passion for Pathfinder.
I believe they have all kinds of passion for psionics. Nevertheless, I want a company to have passion for Pathfinder AND Psionics.
More to the point- I want to see a set of rules that Paizo is actually going to use in their own products. Doing a little self-evaluation, there is a reason I buy the modules and the Adventure Paths. I don't do a lot homebrew; rather I do modification of existing adventure material.
I want psionic system that Paizo says they're actually going to use in the campaign setting. I don't think they'll ever be a strong Psionic presence in the campaign setting, but having some basic support and ideas would make all the difference.
If that takes a couple years, so be it.
Like you, I am happy to see someone do it, and I might be interested in the final result.
I suppose unless they get some sort of special licensing or partnership with Paizo, "I wash my hands of this". ;D
@Watcher: I see your criticism as fair in most regards since it has always meant that ANYTHING we do, unless by a Paizo license, will not be "incorporated" into the Pathfinder Campaign Setting or the Adventure Paths and if that is part of the requirement for you, then I'm sorry to say we cannot help.
However, I find it hard to fault us for drawing the logical conclusion of "7 Deadly Sins = Christianity" and not delving further, since it was mentioned in passing as a suggestion for the Wilder Class (and not defined as "Sin Magic, from Golarion"). If we were to delve further upon every suggestion, thinking that we might have missed some integral part of the Product Identity that we still cannot use, we would do nothing else but wade through suggestions and explanations - one in a hundred which might be relevant to Pathfinder. You yourself noted that we should be strict in how we "sift" through material.
I'd much rather have someone as knowledgeable about the system AND setting as yourself aboard on this. Rather than "washing your hands" - wouldn't the best solution be to come aboard and help out? Isn't that how Pathfinder RPG was born after all? People coming aboard instead of turning their backs on something just because it wasn't "official"? True, in that case it was a new edition of Dungeons & Dragons, but the same open spirit that has helped make Pathfinder what it is today is available here. :)
Perhaps I was rash.
I *do* respond to reasoned calm discussion, and I can be talked down when I get a little too excited.
I've been posting a mile a minute the last few days, and this might be an opportunity to walk away from the PC, fix myself a "Wes Schneider Rum and Coke" and have a think about this.
(Wes Schneider is one of the top two editors who work on the Campaign Setting, and he advocates taking a deep breath once in a while.)
You make a good case. Let me slow down, do some stuff around the house.. come back in a little while.
This is not relevant to psionics, but it might explain my reaction (WARNING: Not actually relevant to the discussion of psionics!!!:
As it turns out, the souls of atheists have a somewhat peculiar fate. They're transformed into crystals. There is strange and rather enigmatic deity that is the God of the End of the World. He's attracted to souls, and it is believed that when he moves to a certain place in the cosmos the End Times will begin. However he is actually repelled by the souls of atheists. The disbelief of atheists is somehow repugnant to this particular God. Thus the End of the World is held at bay... by the sleeping crystallized souls of atheists.
Not everyone in the community appreciates that, because they're atheists themselves. It was seen as a sleight, or at least an unflattering comment on their own beliefs.
There were some insinuations and remarks that this was an attempt to sneak Christianity into the campaign setting. It was also brought up that the author of that particular book is a self-confessed Christian.
That was pretty upsetting for me, because from an educated standpoint there is no Christian agenda, sub-text, or coded message in the campaign setting at all. I appreciate that what happens to the souls of atheists in a fantasy game might bug some people; but at the same time there's no call to question an author's writing integrity because of his real life beliefs. The work needs to be evaluated on it's own merits.
And one of the developing editors is an atheist himself, who prides himself as being the "Go to Guy" for Religion in the Campaign Setting.
An honest disclosure prompts me to admit that I'm a Christian myself. However, I separate that from my fantasy RPG. A fantasy game to me, is just a fantasy game. I don’t get offended or threatened by it. I'm also fairly progressive and I’m not a biblical literalist. I recognize that a lot of people have been hurt by the Christian Church or Organized Religion.. and continue to be hurt by some aspect of it to this very day. But the term Christian is pretty broad, and it comes in all kinds of flavors.. and no one I know around here would try to force it on anybody.
But I'm honest and self-aware that maybe I let my feelings leak into my reaction somewhat. Perhaps it makes more sense now that you know where it comes from.
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one thing i don't like about D&D4e that i'm hoping to see in pathfinder is having a chance for magic or power to go wrong. you know how raven sees the future but misinterprets it? psonics and magic are more fun if there's an "uncontrollable" element. i want to see lower level characters fail on an epic scale -- even if it's my own darn character!
also powers should be a growth path dependent upon the level of the character. luke skywalker can't focus the force enough to lift his x-wing from the swamp, but yoda can. it's more "believable" in an FRPG setting if greater powers are bestowed on those with more maturity. nobody really wants the imbalance of a disintegrate spell at lower levels. but I bet more people would enjoy seeing psychics set things on fire by accident at lower levels, tee-hee.
d&d has never handled psionics well, but if we approach it as another power source, i'm fairly certain that it should NOT follow a strictly vancian system because that's limiting. perhaps using points is the best way to go, because in most of our modern myths, using psionic powers wears down the user (firestarter). i dunno, maybe divide psy powers into classes (reading minds, force power, moving objects, telekinesis) and then build up the powers by level (a 4th level psy should be better in their primary school of psionics than a 1st level, but should have access to the other schools).
This is not relevant to psionics, but it might explain my reaction (WARNING: Not actually relevant to the discussion of psionics!!!:
** spoiler omitted **...
I understand what you're trying to come across. I've invested money in XPH; I have Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook. I have Mindscapes. Hyperconscious. Another title may be eluding me. I've yet to view the contents of Dreamscarred Press' materials (although the constant good reviews I've been reading on here thus far is tempting me). But like you, I want something that is going to be supported and/or recognized by Paizo in their campaign world. Otherwise, it is going to be yet another product that is going to be sitting on my shelf (or on some form of electronic media) unused because the people I usually game with usually views anything outside of 'core' to be '3pp broken splat' and cannot be convinced otherwise.
Most of the time, I usually lurk on these topic threads, but count me as a adamant voice as well each time this issue is brought forth. If there's a niche in the campaign world, I'd like to see something that can be recognzied / supported aside from the means to just sandbox it (like Alkenstar, for instance...but that's another discussion...)
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well I myself get golarion for the stories... and the PFRPG because after a year being here, trying to help to develop it I deserve my nerd killing book... even if I will barely use it... local campaign the one i play less and the one which have the less RPG oriented people...
cool guys... but when I want more deeply experiences I go to my online mates and they don't want nothing to with pathfinder... some of us love Golarion... but didn't liked some changes... changes that make the game not exactly fun for us...
I have seen a few things of dreamscarred and Third Dawn in particular... one of us is deeply involved with the setting and loving it pretty much... after we finish Entombed with the Pharaohs (fully converted to BoXM!) we will be returning to Third Dawn to explore it a bit...
i think i am the only non psionic char :P, but i love my Maenad Rogue :D
Finally, unless we partner with Paizo, we cannot talk or discuss Psionics in Golarion, which is very much Product Identity for Paizo.
You make a great Psionics Sourcebook and the Pazio staff can make us a Psionic Chronicles book.
And if they don't, we chain them to their desks and put a big stack of Lilith's freshly baked cookies just out of reach.
Thread moved to the Licensed Products section? I believe I'm liking where this is going.
Is there an email we can send infomation to?
I like psionics. Please be gentle.
Feat: Psionic Body needs to be toned down some I think.
Perhaps reduce it to 1 HP per psionic feat know.Power: Vigor need to have it's HP boost adjusted. perhaps 5 HP +5 HP fer every two points of augmentation.
Between the two above, Psions can really reach insane HP levels. Especially when you factor in the new Toughness feat.
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In regards to XP costs for some powers, how will they be handled now that PF has dropped XP as a expendable resource? Perhaps use expensive gem stones as a "focus", brning away their value as the power is channeled through it?
The feat Psionic Body itself isn't really bad. I think it was intended for the Psi Warrior. IIRC, they suffered from a d8 HD which hurt for a melee class. However, assuming that the new PsiWar will be a Full BAB/d10 HD class, yes it should be toned down a bit. Perhaps even eliminated, though I would hate to see that because I love the concept behind it.
If possible add the Akashic from Arcana Evolved as a Psionic Bard/ Factotum class.
Wow. That is a really awesome idea! I've always liked the akashic, but sometimes had trouble wrapping my head around the concept. Having them be psionic not only gives the akashic class some interesting flavor, but bringing in the akashic record gives some interesting new flavor to psionics! (And the crystal flavor hasn't been very well received in the past.) I heartily endorse this!!
As for other class changes, I'm torn about the soulknife. Personally, I love the mindblade feat chain and that's the default option in my campaigns. However, for new core ruleset, there should be a soulknife class I suppose. Not really sure where to go with it, however.
one thing that strikes me about the psychic warriors is that they could really use a "build option" to make them even more interesting. One of the things that subtly drew me in the most with both Pathfinder and 4e are the class options - i.e. PF's wizard schools to 4e's warlock pacts, sorcerer spell sources, etc.
For a psychic warrior, I can see it flavored somewhat like the Book of 9 Swords, where each PsyWar chooses a school/discipline what not that highlights different play styles. So some focus on fast movement, others on bashing hard, some on telekinetic attacks, etc. In mechanics, I could see a 0-level at will or some sort of attack modification that overlays regular attacks. Maybe allowing free movement with criticals or kills, adding force damage to melee attacks, etc.
I also considered possible free/discounted augmentations for certain powers to emphasize that this PsyWar favors these powers over those other powers, but keeping that balanced gets tricky.
Seeing you guys dive into a full psionic book is great news! I'll have to start digging around and reading through the Dreamscarred forums as well.
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I'd like to see some sort of Psionic Paladin/Ranger equivalent, ie a full BAB/d10 HD class with limited psionic abilities. Psychic Warriors aren't warriors, they're more the bards of the psionic classes - a dabbler, jack of many trades, master of none.
Halo Knight and Marksman ... I think they occupy that niche
we have one of those in thegame we were beginnign but had to change... we need some stability in the group before plunging deeply in to that realm
As for other class changes, I'm torn about the soulknife. Personally, I love the mindblade feat chain and that's the default option in my campaigns. However, for new core ruleset, there should be a soulknife class I suppose. Not really sure where to go with it, however.
one thing that strikes me about the psychic warriors is that they could really use a "build option" to make them even more interesting. One of the things that subtly drew me in the most with both Pathfinder and 4e are the class options - i.e. PF's wizard schools to 4e's warlock pacts, sorcerer spell sources, etc.
For a psychic warrior, I can see it flavored somewhat like the Book of 9 Swords, where each PsyWar chooses a school/discipline what not that highlights different play styles. So some focus on fast movement, others on bashing hard, some on telekinetic attacks, etc. In mechanics, I could see a 0-level at will or some sort of attack modification that overlays regular attacks. Maybe allowing free movement with criticals or kills, adding force damage to melee attacks, etc.
As demonstrated elsewhere, a number of the soulknife's abilities could best be done in feats rather than its own base class. This is just a fleeting thought that I haven't taken the time to process out accordingly, but with the concept of the PsyWar having a school/discipline, couldn't the soulknife fall under one of those instead?
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I'd like to see some sort of Psionic Paladin/Ranger equivalent, ie a full BAB/d10 HD class with limited psionic abilities. Psychic Warriors aren't warriors, they're more the bards of the psionic classes - a dabbler, jack of many trades, master of none.Halo Knight and Marksman ... I think they occupy that niche
we have one of those in thegame we were beginnign but had to change... we need some stability in the group before plunging deeply in to that realm
Marksman's just fine for ranged combat, but what about a melee combatant?
Halo Knight? What the... *goes to check his Dreamscarred PDFs directory*
How did I miss this whole class? I subscribed to The Mind Unveiled and I just totally overlooked the whole class!
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Marksman's just fine for ranged combat, but what about a melee combatant?
Halo Knight? What the... *goes to check his Dreamscarred PDFs directory*
How did I miss this whole class? I subscribed to The Mind Unveiled and I just totally overlooked the whole class!
good point for the ranger/marksman about the melee combat... mm I have no problem since I have always seen the ranger as ranged oriented... i do not believe in 2 scimitar wielding drows...
well good you can check it now, hope is what you are looking for :)
Feat: Psionic Body needs to be toned down some I think.
Perhaps reduce it to 1 HP per psionic feat know.
Psionic body isn't broken, or even really unbalanced.. It pays off well if you really want to take nothing but [psionic] feats, but it's a difference of 16-18 HP at 20th level over Pathfinder's Toughness. That's not a whole lot of HP, especially since that'd only be on a psychic warrior who took nothing but [psionic] feats for every single feat he ever got, and would likely be in the front, with only a d8 HD to protect him. In addition, those HP disappear in a Null Psionics/Anti Magic Field, because they're keyed off a [psionic] feat, which is supernatural in nature and therefore ceases to function in those sorts of circumstances.
It's not broken. It's just a very attractive option for a particular build of character.
Perhaps in 3.5 it was a little too good, but even there Complete Warrior provided Improved Toughness, which did the exact same thing PF's Toughness is doing, just without the upfront bonus. Psions, in particular, were well advised to take Imp. Toughness over Psionic Body in most cases.
Toning it down to 1 hp per other [psionic] feat would make it flat out a worse choice in every instance than Toughness.
I haven't played much with psionics, but one of the big turn-offs for me were the psionic powers that were disguised as feats.
Aligned Attack
Cloak Dance
Deep Impact
Fell Shot
Focused Sunder
Ghost Attack
Greater Psionic Fist
Greater Psionic Shot
Greater Psionic Weapon
Inquisitor
Mental Leap
Mental Resistance
Mind Over Body
Psionic Charge
Psionic Dodge
Psionic Fist
Psionic Hole
Psionic Shot
Psionic Weapon
Sidestep Charge
Speed of Thought
Unavoidable Strike
Up the Walls
Wounding Attack
I can't imagine any of these being allowed to Wizards or Priests and be considered balanced or fair, so I don't believe psionicists should be allowed them either.
I haven't played much with psionics, but one of the big turn-offs for me were the psionic powers that were disguised as feats.
Aligned Attack
Cloak Dance
Deep Impact
Fell Shot
Focused Sunder
Ghost Attack
Greater Psionic Fist
Greater Psionic Shot
Greater Psionic Weapon
Inquisitor
Mental Leap
Mental Resistance
Mind Over Body
Psionic Charge
Psionic Dodge
Psionic Fist
Psionic Hole
Psionic Shot
Psionic Weapon
Sidestep Charge
Speed of Thought
Unavoidable Strike
Up the Walls
Wounding AttackI can't imagine any of these being allowed to Wizards or Priests and be considered balanced or fair, so I don't believe psionicists should be allowed them either.
These feats definitely dont equal spells(which last a number of rounds). You have to spend you psionic focus to do some extra damage/do something special, and you have make a concentration check, risk an attack of opportunity, and take at least a standard action to regain your psionic focus(IIRC)unless you take a certain feat to take it down to a move action, which still said nothing about negating the Attack of Opportunity. If the abilities of these feats were always on or at least lasted a few rounds I might say they were overpowered, but if played correctly they are not really all that good. If Clerics had a feat that allowed them to do extra/special ____ for one round, but made them useless the next round nobody would take those feats.
After Edit:
The _____ could be filled by extra damage or some special ability.
Is there an email we can send infomation to?
dreamscarredpress /at/ gmail.com will get you in touch with us. Otherwise the best place is to come to our forums at our website, since both I and Jeremy frequent those.
Wow. That is a really awesome idea! I've always liked the akashic, but sometimes had trouble wrapping my head around the concept. Having them be psionic not only gives the akashic class some interesting flavor, but bringing in the akashic record gives some interesting new flavor to psionics! (And the crystal flavor hasn't been very well received in the past.) I heartily endorse this!!
I will definately look into this class and Arcana Evolved's concepts and see if we cannot explore this further in a supplement. However, I am highly sceptical if we can cram yet another class into the main/core book.
As for other class changes, I'm torn about the soulknife. Personally, I love the mindblade feat chain and that's the default option in my campaigns. However, for new core ruleset, there should be a soulknife class I suppose. Not really sure where to go with it, however. one thing that strikes me about the psychic warriors is that they could really use a "build option" to make them even more interesting. One of the things that subtly drew me in the most with both Pathfinder and 4e are the class options - i.e. PF's wizard schools to 4e's warlock pacts, sorcerer spell sources, etc.
As demonstrated elsewhere, a number of the soulknife's abilities could best be done in feats rather than its own base class. This is just a fleeting thought that I haven't taken the time to process out accordingly, but with the concept of the PsyWar having a school/discipline, couldn't the soulknife fall under one of those instead?
Well, I've got to be honest, as the author of the Mind Blade Feats and having seen a "Soulknife PsyWar Build" in my own games I can only agree. However, it would make things extremely difficult for backwards compatability issues. I am considering if we could offer the Mindblade Feats as one way to "build" a Psychic Warrior (since mechanically, the two classes wouldn't be so unsimilar) and instead create a quick writeup of the Soulknife class as part of the Alternate Rules for those who want to retain an old-style class. Thankyou (all) for bringing this idea to me! I can also agree that each class needs atleast two different "builds" - the Psychic Warrior would be the class that gets no rules-defined builds in this case but rather gets different "feat-chains" to delve into.
For a psychic warrior, I can see it flavored somewhat like the Book of 9 Swords, where each PsyWar chooses a school/discipline what not that highlights different play styles. So some focus on fast movement, others on bashing hard, some on telekinetic attacks, etc. In mechanics, I could see a 0-level at will or some sort of attack modification that overlays regular attacks. Maybe allowing free movement with criticals or kills, adding force damage to melee attacks, etc.
One could consider specific Style feats for the Psychic Warrior, giving him certain benefits when using his Style?
I also considered possible free/discounted augmentations for certain powers to emphasize that this PsyWar favors these powers over those other powers, but keeping that balanced gets tricky. Seeing you guys dive into a full psionic book is great news! I'll have to start digging around and reading through the Dreamscarred forums as well.
Balance is of great importance to us and we will make sure to keep things as balanced as we can. You are naturally welcome over at our forums and I hope we can see the discussions flourish both here and there! :D
Halo Knight? What the... *goes to check his Dreamscarred PDFs directory*
How did I miss this whole class? I subscribed to The Mind Unveiled and I just totally overlooked the whole class!
One missed email perhaps? A missed announcement? Either way, I hope you like the Halo Knight. If this Psionics Handbook is received well, we will update the Halo Knight class for Pathfinder too, but it is quite usable "as is" currently.
question... in your version of the rogue does the minor and major magic of the rogue tricks are converted into psionics then? or just stop existing as traits for them?
The Third Dawn Setting is still based in the 3.5 OGL ruleset, which means we haven't looked at the Rogue's tricks. I would honestly convert them into "psionic tricks" and be done with it, the magic part is just flavoring.
...Long list of feats...
I can't imagine any of these being allowed to Wizards or Priests and be considered balanced or fair, so I don't believe psionicists should be allowed them either.
Except that all of these are VERY available to Wizards or Priests who are psionic, which you can access either via the Wild Talent feat, by starting as a psionic race or by taking atleast one level in a psionic class.
Well firstly, my only experience with psionics in D&D are the 3e psionics handbook, the 3e mind's eye articles, and the 3.5e expanded psionics handbook, so I don't know DSP's stance on psionics, now with that out of the way...
I might be hated for saying this, but I've always thought it would be wise to toss an uppercap onto psionic powers besides the cap based on manifester level.
Like a power that did 3d6 damage could be augmented to do more dice of damage but cap at a total of 10d6 no matter what the manifester level is of the psion manifesting it.
I always felt it was a bit unfair to allow psionics to scale infinitely when spells all had an uppercap. Besides it makes the concept of epic psionics that much more fun.
That and I thought that it was unnecessary to have infinitely scaling DCs for powers. As in I thought that having it so a psion can augment their powers for both higher damage AND higher DC for the same point increase without an uppercap on either was just flat out wrong.
And lastly, I hated the lack of 'fun' powers in the XPH, it seemed a lot of the 'just for fun' or utility powers were thrown out for no reason than to make the classes great for combat and nothing else.
In short, I would like to see: Uppercaps on powers, DCs not scaling without some specific energy (a feat and higher PP cost perhaps?) put directly into that purpose (and no other purpose), and more powers that aren't devoted entirely to destroying enemies or self buffing.
Well firstly, my only experience with psionics in D&D are the 3e psionics handbook, the 3e mind's eye articles, and the 3.5e expanded psionics handbook, so I don't know DSP's stance on psionics, now with that out of the way...
I might be hated for saying this, but I've always thought it would be wise to toss an uppercap onto psionic powers besides the cap based on manifester level.
Like a power that did 3d6 damage could be augmented to do more dice of damage but cap at a total of 10d6 no matter what the manifester level is of the psion manifesting it.
I always felt it was a bit unfair to allow psionics to scale infinitely when spells all had an uppercap. Besides it makes the concept of epic psionics that much more fun.
That and I thought that it was unnecessary to have infinitely scaling DCs for powers. As in I thought that having it so a psion can augment their powers for both higher damage AND higher DC for the same point increase without an uppercap on either was just flat out wrong.
And lastly, I hated the lack of 'fun' powers in the XPH, it seemed a lot of the 'just for fun' or utility powers were thrown out for no reason than to make the classes great for combat and nothing else.In short, I would like to see: Uppercaps on powers, DCs not scaling without some specific energy (a feat and higher PP cost perhaps?) put directly into that purpose (and no other purpose), and more powers that aren't devoted entirely to destroying enemies or self buffing.
I might be misunderstanding you here, but the difference with spells (who have an 'uppercap') is that spells scale for free, just by being cast by a higher level character. A psion who expends the same amount of energy (say a 3rd level spell slot versus 5 power points) still only gets a base 5d6 as an effect, regardless of their level. So an 'uppercap' system would either require all powers to scale automatically for no cost (as magic does) or it would be a total nerf of the entire system.
Also, DCs aren't infinitely scaling, power point expenditure is still (and always) limited by power point expenditure metacap (ie you cannot spend more PP on a power than your manifester level).
I might be misunderstanding you here, but the difference with spells (who have an 'uppercap') is that spells scale for free, just by being cast by a higher level character. A psion who expends the same amount of energy (say a 3rd level spell slot versus 5 power points) still only gets a base 5d6 as an effect, regardless of their level. So an 'uppercap' system would either require all powers to scale automatically for no cost (as magic does) or it would be a total nerf of the entire system.
Also, DCs aren't infinitely scaling, power point expenditure is still (and always) limited by power point expenditure metacap (ie you cannot spend more PP on a power than your manifester level).
Excuse me for not typing more clearly, I was on my way to bed when I posted, and upon review I can see my thought processing wasn't exactly clear with that post.
What I believe I was getting at was the fact that a level 9 power is 17 power points total, yet a level 19+ psion can still augment the power point expenditure beyond that. What this means is with manifesting some powers the DC is going to be even higher than a 9th level power.I believe that's where my 'uppercap' rant was going.
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What I believe I was getting at was the fact that a level 9 power is 17 power points total, yet a level 19+ psion can still augment the power point expenditure beyond that. What this means is with manifesting some powers the DC is going to be even higher than a 9th level power.
I believe that's where my 'uppercap' rant was going.
And a wizard with a 10th level spell slot and Improved Heighten Spell achieves pretty much the same thing. The problems of near- and full Epic gaming shouldn't be a strike against a system that works quite well at the level range of most games.
But that's a fundamental difference between Psionics and Magic. A spell automatically functions at its user's maximum potential, while the effectiveness of a power can be adjusted as needed. There are those who say that's what's broken about psionics, I just think that's what's different about it.
I might be misunderstanding you here, but the difference with spells (who have an 'uppercap') is that spells scale for free, just by being cast by a higher level character. A psion who expends the same amount of energy (say a 3rd level spell slot versus 5 power points) still only gets a base 5d6 as an effect, regardless of their level. So an 'uppercap' system would either require all powers to scale automatically for no cost (as magic does) or it would be a total nerf of the entire system.
There is one change I can think of when I see this. I think that I would prefer (most, pretty much the damage dealing ones) psionics powers be given automatic scaling and damage caps then, instead of augments to add 1 power point for an damage dice, there would be an augment to just raise the cap.
I might be misunderstanding you here, but the difference with spells (who have an 'uppercap') is that spells scale for free, just by being cast by a higher level character. A psion who expends the same amount of energy (say a 3rd level spell slot versus 5 power points) still only gets a base 5d6 as an effect, regardless of their level. So an 'uppercap' system would either require all powers to scale automatically for no cost (as magic does) or it would be a total nerf of the entire system.There is one change I can think of when I see this. I think that I would prefer (most, pretty much the damage dealing ones) psionics powers be given automatic scaling and damage caps then, instead of augments to add 1 power point for an damage dice, there would be an augment to just raise the cap.
....but then more powers would need to be created, and those could then be augmented so it really would not solve anything. Another issue is that unlike sorcerers, psions cant forget powers so they have to make good use of the ones they select or they(the designers) would have to make a way for them to get rid of the useless/less useful powers.
If any change needs to be made at all they need to allow psions to stack metamagic feats like casters do.
PS: Another issue is that creating caps for one type of power, but not others just creates more rules which normally leads to more confusion.
....but then more powers would need to be created, and those could then be augmented so it really would not solve anything. Another issue is that unlike sorcerers, psions cant forget powers so they have to make good use of the ones they select or they(the designers) would have to make a way for them to get rid of the useless/less useful powers.
If any change needs to be made at all they need to allow psions to stack metamagic feats like casters do.
PS: Another issue is that creating caps for one type of power, but not others just creates more rules which normally leads to more confusion.
Why would more powers need to be created (rather than the existing powers be modified)?
Also, given the several variations each of the energy powers give, I'm not sure a damage cap would be the significant contributor to the confusion.
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I liked Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook skills-and-feats method, it made for something different; I have never player with it though, so I can't say how it works out in real game play.
In my limited experience, a telekinetic was amazingly tough for a single encounter (being able to grab one foe as a move action, and throw them into another foe as a standard action, in a single round, doing damage to both), but the Strain mechanic beat them down very quickly without an outside source of healing (and counting on other party members to use your class abilities? Not a kosher test, IMO).
The healer with psychic vampirism (forget exact name), able to steal life-force / vitality from another as an attack, curing one's own Strain, and doing damage to the foe in the process, combined with being a second-rate healer out of combat, was the most playable of the options, in my experience, but every combat was very similar. Drain Vitality (with various metapsychic feats to allow AoE drains) and use stolen vitality to heal allies. Pretty much it. The limit on healing someone only once / hour meant that the psychic healer was not a patch on the @$$ of a dedicated cleric, but the healer made a semi-decent 'blaster' combined with a secondary healer function and occasional buffing opportunities with the stat and sense-boosting psychometabolic stuff. Like a Warlock, it's an effective, but somewhat monochromatic character concept, dipping into the same relatively small bag of tricks round after round.
I never played the others, but the combat utility of some cooler clairsentient options and the 'mental blade' were rendered fairly pointless by the Strain mechanic (I spend a not inconsiderable percentage of my d6 HD, unarmored, poor BAB-self's hit points making myself a psychic melee weapon that isn't terribly much better than a melee weapon... I enter melee. I am brutally ripped to shreds by a CR appropriate melee mob. I roll up a new character.).
Even the more effective ranged telepathic and telekinetic utility were rendered problematic by the nature of Strain, as every 'casting' makes the psychic more vulnerable to getting ganked.
In the hands of a race with Fast Healing, the balancing mechanic of Strain falls down and goes boom, and the Psychic becomes arguably too good, making the class something of an all-or-nothing thing, either being far too squishy to be effective, or avoiding the classes balancing factor and becoming 'too good.' Given the plethora of healing options available in the game (even in Core, not to mention later stuff like Healing Belts), it's a class that could benefit from some other form of balancing mechanic, IMO.
Bear in mind that I like the Psychic Handbook's Psychic a hell of a lot better than the Psion, which, IMO, veers too far away from 'traditional' psychic fare (esp, telepathy, telekinesis, faith healing) into wonkiness (psychocreativity, particularly). I'm just hypercritical and can make a ringing endorsement sound like deep, deep loathing. :)
....but then more powers would need to be created, and those could then be augmented so it really would not solve anything. Another issue is that unlike sorcerers, psions cant forget powers so they have to make good use of the ones they select or they(the designers) would have to make a way for them to get rid of the useless/less useful powers.
If any change needs to be made at all they need to allow psions to stack metamagic feats like casters do.
PS: Another issue is that creating caps for one type of power, but not others just creates more rules which normally leads to more confusion.
Why would more powers need to be created (rather than the existing powers be modified)?
Also, given the several variations each of the energy powers give, I'm not sure a damage cap would be the significant contributor to the confusion.
If you cap the powers at 106 for example how will the psion get powers that go above 10d6 unless ones are created that start above that?
If you cap the powers at 106 for example how will the psion get powers that go above 10d6 unless ones are created that start above that?
I didn't mean for that to be the limit. The power could have additional augments that cost more but have caps that progress into the levels that would be considered epic.
Like, continuing off of the previous example, the energy ray could have the following augment as well. "Spend 10 power points and the max damage for this power becomes 25d6."
If you cap the powers at 106 for example how will the psion get powers that go above 10d6 unless ones are created that start above that?I didn't mean for that to be the limit. The power could have additional augments that cost more but have caps that progress into the levels that would be considered epic.
Like, continuing off of the previous example, the energy ray could have the following augment as well. "Spend 10 power points and the max damage for this power becomes 25d6."
You also have to remember that casters can stack metamagic feats, and there are feats that reduce the cost of metamagic feats so they are basically casting epic level spells(damage wise). Psions dont get to stack metamagic feats.
You also have to remember that casters can stack metamagic feats, and there are feats that reduce the cost of metamagic feats so they are basically casting epic level spells(damage wise). Psions dont get to stack metamagic feats.If you cap the powers at 106 for example how will the psion get powers that go above 10d6 unless ones are created that start above that?I didn't mean for that to be the limit. The power could have additional augments that cost more but have caps that progress into the levels that would be considered epic.
Like, continuing off of the previous example, the energy ray could have the following augment as well. "Spend 10 power points and the max damage for this power becomes 25d6."
Why is that important to remember here?
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Edit: Also, it isn't entirely (unless it has been a bit too long since I read the psionics rules) true that you can't stack Metamagic feats as a psionic character. But several of the augments provided by specific powers offer abilities similar to Metamagic feats. Some powers have an augment to be manifested as a swift action (like Quicken Spell), others can change the duration greatly (past the ability of Extend Spell), and many powers have their DC increased when you augment them (Heighten Spell). And that is without spending the feat for that ability. Now, you can't stack the actual feats, but you can make them work with these augmentable powers that simulate Metamagic feats.
You also have to remember that casters can stack metamagic feats, and there are feats that reduce the cost of metamagic feats so they are basically casting epic level spells(damage wise). Psions dont get to stack metamagic feats.If you cap the powers at 106 for example how will the psion get powers that go above 10d6 unless ones are created that start above that?I didn't mean for that to be the limit. The power could have additional augments that cost more but have caps that progress into the levels that would be considered epic.
Like, continuing off of the previous example, the energy ray could have the following augment as well. "Spend 10 power points and the max damage for this power becomes 25d6."
Why is that important to remember here?
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Edit: Also, it isn't entirely (unless it has been a bit too long since I read the psionics rules) true that you can't stack Metamagic feats as a psionic character. But several of the augments provided by specific powers offer abilities similar to Metamagic feats. Some powers have an augment to be manifested as a swift action (like Quicken Spell), others can change the duration greatly (past the ability of Extend Spell), and many powers have their DC increased when you augment them (Heighten Spell). And that is without spending the feat for that ability. Now, you can't stack the actual feats, but you can make them work with these augmentable powers that simulate Metamagic feats.
You have to expend your psionic focus to use the metapsionic feat. That is why you are limited to one metapsionic feat. Using the metapsionic feat also uses power points which count against the max amount you are allowed to use.
Some powers do have metapsionic feat like abilities but not all, and if you want all of them to do it then you have to take the feats. I think they should dump the metapsionic feats altogether and just have you spend PP that would equal the cost or allow for your psionic focus to apply for more than one feat.
It is important to remember because you want to say psions can do epic like things, but spellcasters are already doing the same thing. I doubt psionics will equal magic, but they should be fairly close.
You have to expend your psionic focus to use the metapsionic feat. That is why you are limited to one metapsionic feat. Using the metapsionic feat also uses power points which count against the max amount you are allowed to use.Some powers do have metapsionic feat like abilities but not all, and if you want all of them to do it then you have to take the feats. I think they should dump the metapsionic feats altogether and just have you spend PP that would...
XPH introduces the epic feat "Epic Psionic Focus" which allows you to use 2 feats that require expending your psionic focus at once. You can take the feat multiple times allowing for stacking of metapsionic feats and/or other feats that require expending focus.
It is important to remember because you want to say psions can do epic like things, but spellcasters are already doing the same thing. I doubt psionics will equal magic, but they should be fairly close.
No, that is not what I was saying. I think that you misread what I said.
My point was just to set the cap to be such that it was slightly higher than 20th level, so that a high level wilder (who could increase his manifester level quite a bit) would still receive his full benefits when he manifests an energy ray. If the last augment set the cap at 20d6, then a 15th level wilder would already hit that maximum. I just said it would be "epic" such that the maximum supported manifester level would be above 20th level.
XPH introduces the epic feat "Epic Psionic Focus" which allows you to use 2 feats that require expending your psionic focus at once. You can take the feat multiple times allowing for stacking of metapsionic feats and/or other feats that require expending focus.
You have to expend your psionic focus to use the metapsionic feat. That is why you are limited to one metapsionic feat. Using the metapsionic feat also uses power points which count against the max amount you are allowed to use.Some powers do have metapsionic feat like abilities but not all, and if you want all of them to do it then you have to take the feats. I think they should dump the metapsionic feats altogether and just have you spend PP that would...
..but you have to be epic to use an epic level feat. At that point anything resembling game balance is normally out the window.
It is important to remember because you want to say psions can do epic like things, but spellcasters are already doing the same thing. I doubt psionics will equal magic, but they should be fairly close.No, that is not what I was saying. I think that you misread what I said.
My point was just to set the cap to be such that it was slightly higher than 20th level, so that a high level wilder (who could increase his manifester level quite a bit) would still receive his full benefits when he manifests an energy ray. If the last augment set the cap at 20d6, then a 15th level wilder would already hit that maximum. I just said it would be "epic" such that the maximum supported manifester level would be above 20th level.
With that said I think we are on the same page. I am going to retire for the night and read this again tomorrow when I am more coherent.
I'd like to see the powers aranged closer to White Wolf's Trinity game.
Also could someone post a link to where Paizo stated their opinion on Psionics? I keep heaaring it mentioned but I'd like to see it myself.
Also could someone post a link to where Paizo stated their opinion on Psionics? I keep heaaring it mentioned but I'd like to see it myself.
I'll put the links that I could find here in the spoiler to try to not interfere with this thread as much.
James Jacobs [Editor-in-Chief, Pathfinder] doesn't prefer the current system and would like change it (if that is a viable option)... Part1, Part 2, and Part 3 with at least one reason.
There is another, more recent post that (if I recall correctly) covers again their desire to make a psionics book, but with the goal of it being popular enough that they might continue to use and support it.
Also could someone post a link to where Paizo stated their opinion on Psionics? I keep heaaring it mentioned but I'd like to see it myself.I'll put the links that I could find here in the spoiler to try to not interfere with this thread as much. ** spoiler omitted **
Thanks!
My two cents: I probably wouldn't buy a third-party "reinventing psionics" book. Personally, I think they work just fine with a few simple house rules of my own.
If Paizo came out with a psionics book, I might consider buying it (for compatibility when playing in a "PFRPG-only" game).