Duelist Huge Nerf

[kyrt-ryder]

Galnörag wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

(And Fatespinner, it is a big deal, when touch attacks, particularly ranged touch attacks, are such a big part of the game. What good is an evasive duelist who can ninja dodge arrows but fails to do so for a simple hurled orb?)

He may not "evade" the arrow, but deflect it with a skilled blade, the same deflection is useless against most ranged touch items. fragile vials of acid explode, magical rays don't reflect etc. The point of ranged touch is any touch might be deadly, where as a duelist defense comes from both agility and a screen of steel.

And it's this reason that one of the most fun campaigns I had allowed epic non-caster feats into the game with high prerequisites. A duelist reflecting a ranged touch spell back at the caster? Yes please lol.

But I do see your point, and it's not that bad so long as the touch AC is high enough to have a fair chance of avoiding them. It's just that not getting hit is kind of the duelist's shtick, I'd feel much better (and the wizard would probably be wiser anyway) to just target him with a Will save instead.

[Dave Young 992]

I was thinking about a rogue/fighter build to start off with, going for duelist ASAP. Maybe rogue 2/fighter 5?

What would be good feats for a duelist? I've got some ideas, but there are lots of feats out there.

[Misery]

Fatespinner wrote:

I think it's already been stated in this thread, but I'm going to state it again for clarity's sake:

In 3.5, duelists could not wear any kind of armor or they lost a lot of their fancy abilities.

The new duelist CAN. So, in response to the OP's "7 point AC nerf," get yourself a +3 chain shirt. There's your 7 points back. Yeah, it's not touch AC. Not that big of a deal, IMO.

Bracers of Armor could do the same thing for AC and if the guy focuses on DEX then they'll surpass that +4 dex (or even +6 mithral). The ability to wear armor starts to slip away.

[Jadeite]

Misery wrote:

Bracers of Armor could do the same thing for AC and if the guy focuses on DEX then they'll surpass that +4 dex (or even +6 mithral). The ability to wear armor starts to slip away.

A celestial armor has a max dex of +8. Add in 7 fighter levels and the character could still get a +10 bonus from dexterity and intelligence, with an armor bonus of up to +11, plus additional enchantments. Even if his dexterity + intelligence bonus where +11 or +12, he'd still be better of with the armor than with the bracers.

[Misery]

Jadeite wrote:

Misery wrote:

Bracers of Armor could do the same thing for AC and if the guy focuses on DEX then they'll surpass that +4 dex (or even +6 mithral). The ability to wear armor starts to slip away.

A celestial armor has a max dex of +8. Add in 7 fighter levels and the character could still get a +10 bonus from dexterity and intelligence, with an armor bonus of up to +11, plus additional enchantments. Even if his dexterity + intelligence bonus where +11 or +12, he'd still be better of with the armor than with the bracers.

Armor kind of defeats the feel of the class though. Personally I think they should have just made Elaborate Defense some kind of Armor bonus so it doesn't count with touch like dodge does.

I liked the thought of not wearing armor and being this elusive dextrous fighter. I've thought about going on as the dervish but I might just keep playing 3.5 duelist as much as it pains me to NOT convert to Pathfinder with something that came out.

However I do have to say the way Pathfinder has boosted offensive qualities ... this defensive hit doesn't really make sense. Fighter's get weapon training now.

Rangers get favored enemy to HIT as well as damage.

Paladins get smite that last until evil is dead.

I think they added too many shiny new things on Duelist to make it ... well ... new. And then they had to scale back. I don't think it would be fair to get Elaborate Defense with everything they get now. But I hardly think it was overpowered before. Big on defense, sure, but that was about all they had. They were OK on offense against living creatures who didn't have fortification. A feinter could take away basically ALL his ac.

[Sean van Oudtshoorn]

Hi there,

I actually came onto the forums for a different question but came accross this post. Seems I have been working with an outdated copy of the PrC supplement..

I was a little disappointed to see this change, I always pictured the Duelist as a nigh-unhittable character that relied on defensive ripostes than an outright attack. In a way my question could fit under this topic, since the way I see it, a fair amount of the Duelist's AC comes from his BaB + Dex and other bonuses. Humour me a moment.. every time you parry you are in fact making an attack roll against the opponent's attack, so would it not be wiser to bump your attack bonuses more than your AC? Sure you need touch attack AC and this is exactly how I am building my Duelist, with no armor and levels of rogue (for imp-uncanny dodge) she should hardly ever be flat-footed and have a touch attack AC of 29 (with Dodge and high ranks in acrobatics - Rogue8/Duelist6: 24DEX/22INT with items and being an elf). Not bad considering that touch attacks come from characters with potentially low ranged to-hit. Sadly, to my knowledge, there are not enough buffs to a Duelist's to-hit, since I am not going the route of Fighter/Duelist. Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse and magic weapon bonuses are the only ones I am aware of.

This has led me to the reason for coming here. With improved critical for the rapier, you threaten on rolls of 15~20. What is the general community's understanding/rule around the parry "attack" roll and threatening? If I manage to roll a 15 on a parry roll, do I manage to parry the attack whether I confirm (since there is no damage element in the actual parry), or would I still need to match the opponent's attack roll? Allowing a threatening roll to successfully parry an attack would still make this viable for me, since your to-hit + roll is your effective AC, and your actual AC is for touch attacks. Anything that manages to catch you flat-footed deserves to hit you ;)

Sorry for the long winded post, my original Question and the topic raised here really got the gears moving, lol.

Oh and Kyrt, I like your house rules, gonna take another look at them and see if I can convice our DM to allow them in :P

Thnx for reading!

[Jadeite]

Sean van Oudtshoorn wrote:

This has led me to the reason for coming here. With improved critical for the rapier, you threaten on rolls of 15~20. What is the general community's understanding/rule around the parry "attack" roll and threatening? If I manage to roll a 15 on a parry roll, do I manage to parry the attack whether I confirm (since there is no damage element in the actual parry), or would I still need to match the opponent's attack roll? Allowing a threatening roll to successfully parry an attack would still make this viable for me, since your to-hit + roll is your effective AC, and your actual AC is for touch attacks. Anything that manages to catch you flat-footed deserves to hit you ;)

You'd have to match the opponent's attack roll. Your threat range is of no relevance in such a case. You don't get an autohit with a critical threat anyway, only with a natural twenty.

[Sean van Oudtshoorn]

Jadeite wrote:

Sean van Oudtshoorn wrote:

This has led me to the reason for coming here. With improved critical for the rapier, you threaten on rolls of 15~20. What is the general community's understanding/rule around the parry "attack" roll and threatening? If I manage to roll a 15 on a parry roll, do I manage to parry the attack whether I confirm (since there is no damage element in the actual parry), or would I still need to match the opponent's attack roll? Allowing a threatening roll to successfully parry an attack would still make this viable for me, since your to-hit + roll is your effective AC, and your actual AC is for touch attacks. Anything that manages to catch you flat-footed deserves to hit you ;)

You'd have to match the opponent's attack roll. Your threat range is of no relevance in such a case. You don't get an autohit with a critical threat anyway, only with a natural twenty.

A bit off topic I know, but I must ask. My copy of the core rulebook states that once you threaten with your weapon, you have to roll to confirm. All that you require is a hit with your roll and current "to-hit" modifier, you don't need another 20 (or whatever you threaten on) to confirm the critical. If you miss with the confirmation roll, it is considered a normal hit. Now I realise my copy of the core rulebook is old (dated Oct '08) and I think the free downloads of the beta are no longer available because of the launch. So anyone out there, with a much more recent copy, can you confirm the critical hit rules please? In my copy it falls under chapter 9 (Combat) "Standard Actions - Critical Hits:".

Back to my original question though, since we don't automatically parry on a threat (though still on a natural 20), it would still make us rather average against a high BaB class. Is it just me, or does anyone else feel that the whole parry-riposte style of play is a little weak unless you go Fighter/Duelist?

Another thing I cannot confirm with my copy of the PrC supplement, has the BaB requirement for Duelist really dropped from 6 to 2?

Thanks in advance!

[Jadeite]

Sean van Oudtshoorn wrote:

A bit off topic I know, but I must ask. My copy of the core rulebook states that once you threaten with your weapon, you have to roll to confirm. All that you require is a hit with your roll and current "to-hit" modifier, you don't need another 20 (or whatever you threaten on) to confirm the critical. If you miss with the confirmation roll, it is considered a normal hit. Now I realise my copy of the core rulebook is old (dated Oct '08) and I think the free downloads of the beta are no longer available because of the launch. So anyone out there, with a much more recent copy, can you confirm the critical hit rules please? In my copy it falls under chapter 9 (Combat) "Standard Actions - Critical Hits:".

Back to my original question though, since we don't automatically parry on a threat (though still on a natural 20), it would still make us rather average against a high BaB class. Is it just me, or does anyone else feel that the whole parry-riposte style of play is a little weak unless you go Fighter/Duelist?

Another thing I cannot confirm with my copy of the PrC supplement, has the BaB requirement for Duelist really dropped from 6 to 2?

Thanks in advance!

The 3.5 rules on critical hits:

3.5 SRD wrote:

Critical Hits

When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll - another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Increased Threat Range
Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier

Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit.
Spells and Critical Hits

A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit.

The beta rules on critical hits:

Pathfinder Beta wrote:

Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll - another attack roll with all the same modif iers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit.

(The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It
doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specif ied, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit.
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit.

And finally the Pathfinde Core Rules:

PRD wrote:

Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a "threat," meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to "confirm&" the critical hit - another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.

Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit (see Equipment).

Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.

You never got an autohit on a 15-19.

And no, the duelist BAB requirement didn't drop, at least not in the beta or in the final release. It's still +6.

And yes, the ability works best with a fighter/duelist.

[Sean van Oudtshoorn]

To Jadeite: Apologies, I feel like a bit of a fool for not reading the rules properly... I blame it on the fact that I read what I wanted to read.. lol. Just below where I read the crit rules, I found the threat range information you quoted.. Helps to read everything through PROPERLY :)

Perhaps an additional house rule as part of the Parry ability received at level 2, could be a Parry Attack bonus used only when you parry, scaling with your duelist level. Not on a one-for-one basis, perhaps +1 every 4 levels beyond , and including, 2nd? This would yield a +3 bonus to parry rolls by duelist level 10. Sure, the fighter/duelist combo would yield a character even better at parrying, but would allow the non cookie-cutter duelist (parry) builds to be a bit more effective against high BaB opponents. Just an idea.. :)

Anyway, thanks for the input!

[Hyla Arborea]

Misery wrote:

I am hoping this is some kind of sick offensive joke.

My favorite prestige class has always been the Duelist prestige class. Even in 3rd when everyone said it was too weak or something, I still loved it.

In the Beta I was excited about the Duelist changes but come the final product they took it's GREATEST ability and beat the hell out of it!! Elaborate Defense now states it only gives a dodge bonus to ac when fighting defensively for 1 point every 3!! duelist levels.

Seriously, flat out ... I am beyond disappointed in this. I would have rather Paizo just leave this PRC alone then do this. That's like a 7 AC point nerf which is huge ... what the hell guys ... seriously.

I made some quick estimates and compared a Ftr15 to a Ftr6/Due9

This is what I got:

Ftr 15 (greatsword)
AC 32
Attack +31
Dmg 2d6+20 (17-20/x2)
(Power Attack: +27 / 2d6+32)

Ftr 15 (sword & board)
AC 41
Attack +31
Dmg 1d8+17 (17-20/x2)
(Power Attack +27 / 1d8+25)

Ftr6/Due9
AC 32 (38 defensively)
Attack +29 (+25 defensively)
Dmg 1d6+20 (15-20/x2)
(Power Attack +25 /1d6+28)

Not too shabby I think, although he IS a little bit weaker in combat than the Fighter. Also the Duelist has better saves and more skills.

I don`t get why he can`t use a longsword or scimitar though.

[Conspicuous]

Quote:

I don`t get why he can`t use a longsword or scimitar though.

If you kindly redirect your attention to the following link:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat

THIS helps by an incredible amount. With Power Attack . . . ? Oh man!

Sort of an aside: Crippling Critical comes at lvl 10 Duelist, and is of course uber-sexy with its numerous options. My issue is with the feat Critical Mastery, which specifies that you can combine two critical "FEATS". Anyone else think the Duelist ability--which is named with the word Critical--should work with Critical Mastery? I can imagine that most would house-rule it even if the book rules disagreed, but I'm curious from the community's perspective.

Lastly, on the AC bit, I've worked an Elven Duelist--best choice, imo--up to having 44 AC at lvl 20. It takes a bit of cash, but totally do-able:

Dexterity 28 (6 from gloves, 4 from leveling, 18 base Elf) = +9
Intelligence 24 (6 from headband, 1 from leveling, 17 base Elf) = +7
Bracers of Armor +5,
Ring of Protection +5,
Amulet of Nat Armor +5, (sucky, but if you need the AC . . .)
Dodge (from Free Hand Fighter) +3 (only up to lvl 10 Fighter, based on wording)
10+9+7+15+3 = 44.

Heck, if you're paranoid of dieing, you could throw Combat Expertise in there (which you should get for disarming anyway), the bonus Dodge from the class for using it(another +3) and fight defensively. Won't be able to hit anything, but nigh-untouchable.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Thread necro!

Always nice to read threads from the game's early days, to help understand the mindset of devs and players that led to the tremendously laughable imbalance Pathfinder has. The +1/level AC ability was broken and needed nerfing?

Man, those posts are great for a laugh. ...Until everyone switches over from 3E to PF and I no longer have a game in which to play a noncaster that doesn't suck... Then it'll just be sad and tragic. :(

[Harley Quinn X]

Somewhere, someone's getting rich selling the onyx gems needed to animate all of these dead threads.