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I am hoping this is some kind of sick offensive joke.
My favorite prestige class has always been the Duelist prestige class. Even in 3rd when everyone said it was too weak or something, I still loved it.
In the Beta I was excited about the Duelist changes but come the final product they took it's GREATEST ability and beat the hell out of it!! Elaborate Defense now states it only gives a dodge bonus to ac when fighting defensively for 1 point every 3!! duelist levels.
Seriously, flat out ... I am beyond disappointed in this. I would have rather Paizo just leave this PRC alone then do this. That's like a 7 AC point nerf which is huge ... what the hell guys ... seriously.
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Let's see, add this to the Canny Defense ability of an 18 Intelligence Duelist, and you effectively have a +7 dodge bonus to AC at 9th lvl. A 7 point nerf...? Does that mean the original had it at +14?
If the duelist had an INT of 18 then yes, it was 14. You used to fight defensively and get a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each level of duelist. Then you still got canny defense too.
In Beta they had not changed this and then dropped this out of nowhere. They used to be great defensive fighters and now ... nothing they gave makes up for this. This actually pisses me off. Wizards did a better job when it was the way it was then this. I know they get a lot of new fancy toys but this was like their signature move. Now it's taking a minus 4 to hit for a +6 to ac (assuming you have enough acrobatics which I'm sure most duelists do). Before it was a -4 to hit for + 13 AC.
This was my FAVORITE prestige class ... and now they butchered it unless this is a big friggen typo.
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SO you mean to say having a +14 dodge bonus to AC that applied against touch attack, by far the most notorious attack for ending PC's lives, was not broken before you had hit double digits in the game for levels?
Nice.
Who said it started before double digits?
Or are you just doing a random comment by to start trouble?
In any case, the +13 was not possible until level 10 duelist which usually meant level 17 at least. They didn't get to wear armor or use a shield and that was supposed to be their thing back in the day. I wouldn't have even minded them making that their level 10 ability since it was kind of their cornerstone anyway. And if they HAD to reduce it (which I never saw a reason for it before) then at least 1 dodge per 2 levels, not 3. It was a 7 AC point nerf ... making it not even worth going down for an extra 2 ac compared to the combat expertise feat with a shield.
Dodge bonus can be a problem and I would have rather seen a work around for that than this crap. They should have just called this the swashbuckler or something and left the duelist alone.
SO you mean to say having a +14 dodge bonus to AC that applied against touch attack, by far the most notorious attack for ending PC's lives, was not broken before you had hit double digits in the game for levels?
Nice.
Who said it started before double digits?
Or are you just doing a random comment by to start trouble?
In any case, the +13 was not possible until level 10 duelist which usually meant level 17 at least. They didn't get to wear armor or use a shield and that was supposed to be their thing back in the day. I wouldn't have even minded them making that their level 10 ability since it was kind of their cornerstone anyway. And if they HAD to reduce it (which I never saw a reason for it before) then at least 1 dodge per 2 levels, not 3. It was a 7 AC point nerf ... making it not even worth going down for an extra 2 ac compared to the combat expertise feat with a shield.
Dodge bonus can be a problem and I would have rather seen a work around for that than this crap. They should have just called this the swashbuckler or something and left the duelist alone.
Look, dude, I don't mean to rain on your parade, but they took down a lot of the "MY AC IS SO FREAKING HIGH" abilities when they rolled out with the final. Fighters had high enough ACs that it caused serious issues when approaching the entire party (allow the fighter to never get hit or allow the monster to always hit the fighter's allies?) Yeah, you lost 7 points of AC from a, frankly, broken ability, and I get that you're upset and all, but Paizo was shooting for balance, and that meant you lost your ability to be unhittable.
If it makes you feel any better, you can still wrangle a good AC out of the Duelist.
3 ranks of Acrobatics raises your defensive AC to +3, and with Dodge (+1), your Intelligence (~ +3), and your class bonus to fighting defensively (+3) you gain a total of +10 to your AC when on the defense, where-as your companions only gain +2 (+3 with those ranks in Acrobatics).
REALLY breaking down the math here, if you compare a fighter with STR 22 and DEX 16 to a duelist of DEX 22 and INT 16, both in level 20 gear, you get the following:
Fighter (+5 full plate, +5 heavy shield) = AC 31 // AC 33 defensive
Duelist (+8 bracers of armor) = AC 28 // AC 34 defensive
But those are conservative stats. If you chose to start with an 18 in Dexterity and pumped it every level with a +4 DEX item and a +4 INT item (starting with a 16, since you're an Elf) you'd end with an AC that's 4 points higher.
And on top of that, you can flit around the battlefield like a freakin' ninja because you've got zero armor check penalty and a mediocre reliance on gear (as opposed to the fighter).
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SO you mean to say having a +14 dodge bonus to AC that applied against touch attack, by far the most notorious attack for ending PC's lives, was not broken before you had hit double digits in the game for levels?
Nice.
Who said it started before double digits?
Or are you just doing a random comment by to start trouble?
In any case, the +13 was not possible until level 10 duelist which usually meant level 17 at least. They didn't get to wear armor or use a shield and that was supposed to be their thing back in the day. I wouldn't have even minded them making that their level 10 ability since it was kind of their cornerstone anyway. And if they HAD to reduce it (which I never saw a reason for it before) then at least 1 dodge per 2 levels, not 3. It was a 7 AC point nerf ... making it not even worth going down for an extra 2 ac compared to the combat expertise feat with a shield.
Dodge bonus can be a problem and I would have rather seen a work around for that than this crap. They should have just called this the swashbuckler or something and left the duelist alone.
Look, dude, I don't mean to rain on your parade, but they took down a lot of the "MY AC IS SO FREAKING HIGH" abilities when they rolled out with the final. Fighters had high enough ACs that it caused serious issues when approaching the entire party (allow the fighter to never get hit or allow the monster to always hit the fighter's allies?) Yeah, you lost 7 points of AC from a, frankly, broken ability, and I get that you're upset and all, but Paizo was shooting for balance, and that meant you lost your ability to be unhittable.
If it makes you feel any better, you can still wrangle a good AC out of the Duelist.
3 ranks of Acrobatics raises your defensive AC to +3, and with Dodge (+1), your Intelligence (~ +3), and your class bonus to fighting defensively (+3) you gain a total of +10 to your AC when on the defense, where-as your companions only gain +2 (+3 with...
I'm sorry if I spoke heatedly but this was a big blow to me. Not the nerf but the fact I think they OVER did it. Heck I would have even been fine if they did +1 for every 2 levels or let you use the dodge bonus with combat expertise for a LITTLE bonus. I know they gave a few extra cute little toys but in general I'm not a fan.
Looking on dropping it now for the Dervish PRC.
Rule #0: It's your game!
If you don't like what they did, change it to whatever suits you needs.
Rule # 1 (my own input): keep breathing, it's just a game :-)
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The AC of a duelist might be a bit lower, but he's gotten a increase in the damage he does. The 3.5 duelist had to wait till level 5 to get +1d6 on damage. by that time a Pathfinder duelist has a +5 to damage.
A fighter 10/duelist 10 can get a +26 bonus on damage from power attack and class features alone, which will get multiplied on a critical hit (which might be x4 since it's appearantly possible to fence with a heavy pick but not with a scimitar or a longsword).
Don't waste your ressourcen to get an abnormal AC. The boar companion or mount of a 9th level paladin or druid can easily have an AC of 33 (without any magical equipment or buffs), so unless you are content being worse than the class feature of another character, you should go for offense.
I am ok with the duelist AC. The fact that they add their intelligence in light armor already compensates them - unless you were using some expensive AC-granting robes, a mithral chain is a pretty much free +4 to AC. Sure, it's armor and not dodge, but it's AC. You don't have to wait 7 levels for it either.
What I find is still lacking is their attack. The damage was upped somewhat, but is still fairly low for someone who doesn't have any other abilities. 1 more HP per hit per level, not applicable against a significant part of the enemies and requiring you to not hold a shield and not use TWF, just does not cut it imo. Keep in mind that a pure fighter can get a comparable amount in pure damage bonuses, no questions asked - in 10 levels they will have 2 levels of weapon training, 1 degree of weapon specialization (which, with their bucketful of bonus feats, they can afford) and probably other tricks I am not aware of. Add in TWF, weapon critical and other fighter-only feats and... yeah.
I think the swashbuckler would have to have the bonus damage doubled, or similarly improved in some other way (i.e. sudden strike-ish damage on a feint or critical) in order to compete. Defense is nice, but without a good attack you are just postponing the inevitable.
Am I reading it right that duelist only loses his precise strike when using two weapons? I've never tried the Duelist, but the parry/riposte feature intrigues me.
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I am ok with the duelist AC. The fact that they add their intelligence in light armor already compensates them somewhat.
What I find is still lacking is their attack. The damage was upped somewhat, but is still fairly low for someone who doesn't have any other abilities. 1 more HP per hit per level, not applicable against a significant part of the enemies and requiring you to not hold a shield and not use TWF, seems quite insignificant. Keep in mind that a pure fighter can get almost as much in damage bonuses without any limitations - in 10 levels they will have 2 levels of weapon training, 1 degree of weapon specialization (which, with their bucketful of bonus feats, they can afford) and probably other tricks I am not aware of.
I think the swashbuckler would have to have the bonus damage doubled, or similarly improved in some other way, in order to compete. Defense is nice, but without a good attack you are just postponing the inevitable.
There's nothing stopping you from combining levels of fighter with levels of duelist. The BAB requirement aside, a fighter can qualify for duelist by level 2.
With 6 levels of fighter and 10 levels of duelist you can get a damage bonus of +13 from precise strike, weapon specialization and weapon training. That's nearly double the amount a level 16 fighter would get (+7).If you'd double the amount, he would have a damage bonus of +23 on level 16, add in power attack and each of his attacks would deal an additional damage of +33, not including any bonuses from magic items or strength.
It's somehow strange that people complain about the paladin getting his level as a bonus against certain enemies and, on the other hand, think that the duelist getting his level as a bonus on damage against nearly every enemy isn't enough.
+10 is the damage bonus a 20th level ranger gets against one type of creature if he put all of his favored enemy increases into it. The only creatures a duelist doesn't get his bonus against are oozes, incorporeal undead and outsiders with the elemental subtype.
The duelist gets about 6 feats on level 10 (5 critical feats and critical mastery, although you might count the ability to cause dexterity and strength damage as two feats).
Saying the duelist doesn't get anything is like saying the only thimgs fighters get are weapon training and armor training.
Am I reading it right that duelist only loses his precise strike when using two weapons? I've never tried the Duelist, but the parry/riposte feature intrigues me.
He also loses it when using a shield, but yes, it's a rather impressive class feature.
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Great advice, unless, of course, you want to get involved in PFS.
If you don't like what they did to a particular class, don't play that class in PFS. Save playing that class for your home games where you can house rule it as you wish. Paizo won't be able to please everyone all of the time with the alterations they've made. I for one support the duelist changes; AC differences of as much as 15 points between two front-line fighters simply aren't feasible.
He also loses it when using a shield, but yes, it's a rather impressive class feature.
Am I reading it right that duelist only loses his precise strike when using two weapons? I've never tried the Duelist, but the parry/riposte feature intrigues me.
Hm, so if I can live with losing the Precise strike, I'm able to take 5 levels of Duelist to get a two weapon fighting parry/riposte-fighter.
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Translation: If you have a favorite class you enjoy playing to the exclusion of all others, and you don't like what Paizo did to it, then don't play PFS.
That, or work past your dislike. Try actually playing the class and seeing how badly the changes have affected it before you pass broad, sweeping judgement on it and start posting bitter little asides on the messageboards. Or, alternatively, don't. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me what you do.
Eh I am failing to see an issue here. You can get an AC of 30 or so in light armor, seems fine.
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Hm, so if I can live with losing the Precise strike, I'm able to take 5 levels of Duelist to get a two weapon fighting parry/riposte-fighter.
With a TWF fighter, I'd take 7 levels of duelist. Eleborate Defense is a nice synergy to two weapon defense. That way, the character would get 6 points of AC from fighting defensively (two from fighting defensively, two from eleborate defense, one from acrobatics and one extra shield bonus from TWD). He'd still lose only one point of damage and attack compared to a pure fighter (although not gaining access to critical mastery might hurt a bit, too).
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I think you better scroll back and see who posted the first "bitter little aside." And frankly, if it doesn't matter to you what people do, then quit responding to their posts!
Oh, now I remember where I saw your name. Well, if this is one of your attempts to 'get a more honest response' from me through getting me annoyed, I think you may be disappointed. I responded due to your 'translation' of my post. Thank you for your efforts, but I don't believe my posts require translation. However, having seen how well discussions with you tend to go on other threads, I believe this will be my last word on the subject.
In an attempt to remain even faintly on topic;
When fighting defensively, a duelist under 3.5 gained their level+3 to their touch and regular AC. (I never saw a duellist without 5+ Tumble ranks.) This granted them a minimum of 10 and a maximum of 13 points of AC, for a -4 to hit. This was frankly unbalancing when compared to a non-duellist fighter. And I say this from personal experience; I have run a campaign containing a duelist AC-monkey in it. I don't think this fix breaks the duelist class, just fixed a perennial flaw in it. Now I can let people use the class again, without worrying that they will never feel challenged by the encounters. While some people may not agree, I'd ask that you try the class out in play before giving it up as a lost cause. If you still feel that it's been nerfed after that, then fair enough; you gave it a more than even chance.
Hm, so if I can live with losing the Precise strike, I'm able to take 5 levels of Duelist to get a two weapon fighting parry/riposte-fighter.With a TWF fighter, I'd take 7 levels of duelist. Eleborate Defense is a nice synergy to two weapon defense. That way, the character would get 6 points of AC from fighting defensively (two from fighting defensively, two from eleborate defense, one from acrobatics and one extra shield bonus from TWD). He'd still lose only one point of damage and attack compared to a pure fighter (although not gaining access to critical mastery might hurt a bit, too).
True enough. I wasn't going on critical feats with this one though. Unfortunately I don't get to play very often 'cause im the DM, but I think I'll whip up an NPC using this prestige...
He also loses it when using a shield, but yes, it's a rather impressive class feature.
Am I reading it right that duelist only loses his precise strike when using two weapons? I've never tried the Duelist, but the parry/riposte feature intrigues me.Hm, so if I can live with losing the Precise strike, I'm able to take 5 levels of Duelist to get a two weapon fighting parry/riposte-fighter.
Or, technically, you could TWF using a trident (or morningstar, odd as that sounds) and armor spikes or improved unarmed strike. It'd be...weird, but technically possible.
Or, technically, you could TWF using a trident (or morningstar, odd as that sounds) and armor spikes or improved unarmed strike. It'd be...weird, but technically possible.He also loses it when using a shield, but yes, it's a rather impressive class feature.
Am I reading it right that duelist only loses his precise strike when using two weapons? I've never tried the Duelist, but the parry/riposte feature intrigues me.Hm, so if I can live with losing the Precise strike, I'm able to take 5 levels of Duelist to get a two weapon fighting parry/riposte-fighter.
You're absolutely right. I was almost sure Jason had nerfed the spiked armor, as it makes possible to twf and have a shield. But I kinda like the idea of parrying with armos spikes =).
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I'd ask that you try the class out in play before giving it up as a lost cause. If you still feel that it's been nerfed after that, then fair enough; you gave it a more than even chance.
Played it the other night before posting my complaint after realizing this. It WAS that bad. For defensive fighting I'd be better off going DEX fighter with a special shield that has no armor check penalty so no minus to hit and just make the shield a +5 with the cash and then adding in combat expertise.
I don't like the nerfs they've made to AC powers.
I think that the untouchable swordsman is extremely iconic. You respond to him by making a flurry of attacks and hoping for a 20, by doing what you can to improve your to-hit, or by just letting the spellcaster handle it.
Or by using touch attacks to bypass his armor.
Or by using any of a variety of tactics to render him flat-footed.
Or whatever. Point is that it's a challenge like any other. Balance-wise, an AC boost isn't any more powerful than an attack boost, and an untouchable warrior-type will be commensurately weaker offensively because of the feats (or gear, or in this case, character levels) that he's spent on defense.
To be fair, I could be WAY off here, as I have pretty limited experience with high level play. But that's my impression so far.
There's nothing stopping you from combining levels of fighter with levels of duelist. The BAB requirement aside, a fighter can qualify for duelist by level 2.
With 6 levels of fighter and 10 levels of duelist you can get a damage bonus of +13 from precise strike, weapon specialization and weapon training. That's nearly double the amount a level 16 fighter would get (+7).
True, but it limits you to certain weapons (one-handed only), attacks, and is only valid against certain enemies. I guess I missed the idea of a duelist using power attack, though - you do have a point. It sounds very anti-iconic, though - I thought the entire point of precise attack was to use finesse.
I still think that the +10 is not very high. The fighter's extra bonus to attack from weapon training (in case of a fighter/duelist, the bonus from WT improvement), converted to power attack, is +4 for a single-handed weapon, +6 for a two-hander, on top of the +2 WT gives directly. Maybe doubling it is not the proper solution, but I still think Precise strike should have something else going for it. Paladins and rangers have other schticks on top of ye olde damage-dealing, though I'm not all that happy with their damage output anyway.
MAh...
Imho the new duelist is simply different. Canny defense 3.x was broken. Every combat scene involving it in my campaigns was always ruined by it. I had silly combats between duelists in which they stroke each other only on natural 20 and so they always used maximized power attack and expertise, because that didn't make any difference. no way, it was tiresome.
The new duelist is way more funny and balanced...and don't forget the AC boost due to light armor.
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I don't like the nerfs they've made to AC powers.
I think that the untouchable swordsman is extremely iconic. You respond to him by making a flurry of attacks and hoping for a 20, by doing what you can to improve your to-hit, or by just letting the spellcaster handle it.
Or by using touch attacks to bypass his armor.
Or by using any of a variety of tactics to render him flat-footed.
Or whatever. Point is that it's a challenge like any other. Balance-wise, an AC boost isn't any more powerful than an attack boost, and an untouchable warrior-type will be commensurately weaker offensively because of the feats (or gear, or in this case, character levels) that he's spent on defense.
To be fair, I could be WAY off here, as I have pretty limited experience with high level play. But that's my impression so far.
It's pretty much how I felt as well. And there ARE ways around this, the top of them being Feinting (in case the duelist has uncanny dodge) which takes away his dex AND his dodge bonus. That's just about ALL of the duelist's AC to hit if succeeded PLUS sneak attack damage if they're a rogue.
I guess I have a hard time seeing why AC is such a big deal when everyone got such huge attack bonuses in this game. Look at the Paladin ... it's a situational thing and is limited to a number of times per day ... but heck I would have rather them stick with the old Elaborate Defense and make it a limited number of times per day then this crap. Like maybe a number of rounds per day equal to their INT bonus plus their duelist level.
So even at Level 10 duelist you could only go hardcore AC like 14 rounds per day with an 18 INT.
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True, but it limits you to certain weapons (one-handed only), attacks, and is only valid against certain enemies. I guess I missed the idea of a duelist using power attack, though - you do have a point. It sounds very anti-iconic, though - I thought the entire point of precise attack was to use finesse.
I still think that the +10 is not very high. The fighter's extra bonus to attack from weapon training (in case of a fighter/duelist, the bonus from WT improvement), converted to power attack, is +4 for a single-handed weapon, +6 for a two-hander, on top of the +2 WT gives directly. Maybe doubling it is not the proper solution, but I still think Precise strike should have something else going for it. Paladins and rangers have other schticks on top of ye olde damage-dealing, though I'm not all that happy with their damage output anyway.
A 20th level twohanded weapon fighter will have a +26 to damage from power attack, weapon training and the weapon specialization feats.
A fighter10/duelist10 will have +26 to damage from power attack, weapon training, precise strike and weapon specialization. The fighter will have a +2 on attacks, compared to the duelist.Since you are no longer able to decide how many points you want to use with power attack, a +1 bonus on attacks isn't equal to a certain amount of damage. It just increases the chance of hitting.
If the duelist could get his hand on a celestial armor, his normal AC should be at least equal to that of a fighter in a fullplate. He'll also be able to gain a +6 bonus for 4 points of attack bonus if he needs a higher AC. He also gets some other defensive options, like deflect arrows or the ability to parry attacks.
So, his defense is better than that of a THW fighter, while his offense is better than the one a fighter with a shield usually has.
While he doenn't get the automatic confirmation on criticals and the increased multipliers, his critical hits are still rather devestatiting, especially when combined with critical feats like stunning or blinding critical.
In my opinion a fencer putting force behind an attack isn't that uncommen, so I have little problems with power attacks. Also, cleave and great cleave seem to be superior to such a character compared to whirlwind attack, since they allow him to make a move action and still attack multiple opponents (although whirlwind attack + lunge might be powerful, too).
Combat Expertise doesn't seem to be a good choice, since at 20th level he'll get the same AC bonus from fighting defensively for a smaller penalty on attack rolls.
A list of feats/feat equivalents the duelist gets:
Improved Initiative
Combat Reflexes
Lightning Reflexes
Mobility
Deflect Arrows
Bleeding Critical
Combat Expertise
5 x Weapon Specialization with all light and onehanded piercing weapons
That doesn't include the duelist's abilities that have no feat analogue like Canny Defense, Parry, Riposte, No Retreat and most of his Crippling Critical choices.
He doesn't gain access to the fighter exclusive feats above level 10. Some of his 'feats' are limited when compared to the normal feats while others are better (like eleborate defense in comparison to combat expertise). They also stack with feats in many instances.
Compared to the 11th-20th level of fighter, the duelist doesn't seem that bad. And 20th level fighters aren't that weak to begin with.
I had silly combats between duelists in which they stroke each other only on natural 20 and so they always used maximized power attack and expertise, because that didn't make any difference.
Tell us more about the fights where the two duelists were stroking each other.
Were they...lady duelists? (hope, hope)
There's a gag here about phallic fencers, but I'm not going to make it.
Except that I've already made it by not making it.
*Sigh* is there a reason I haven't been able to get a single direct reply in this thread? I've posted my thoughts twice and everybody completely sidesteps my posts. If you don't agree with them that's cool, say so and why, but ignoring somebody who's trying to contribute to the conversation is very NOT cool.
Having read what was under the spoiler, that Parry ability reminded me why I hated the Parry rules in 2E. With it, this character could effectively shut down an opponent he's facing in single combat by sacrificing AoO's to Parry his foe's attacks. In a one-on-one duel he could potentially knock out all of a foe's attacks while only sacrificing his AoO's. Then, on his own turn, proceed to unload with a full attack. Repeat ad nauseum. Mechanically, you might consider making it a case where you use your CMB vs. the foe's CMD as well. In a general melee with multiple opponents, your ability could be a life-saver if you're defending many weaker allies around you in true swashbuckling style.
Against bruiser-type monsters, this ability might or might not make a difference, depending on your luck. If you're up against a person relying on touch attacks, you're still in great shape-so you're helping to shut down that archetype if I read things correctly.
For your other abilities, I have no comment at the moment other than the first one just made the bladesinger partially obsolete in one shot, but that's the bladesinger's problem;) I'd just fix that later.
*Sigh* is there a reason I haven't been able to get a single direct reply in this thread? I've posted my thoughts twice and everybody completely sidesteps my posts. If you don't agree with them that's cool, say so and why, but ignoring somebody who's trying to contribute to the conversation is very NOT cool.
Not sure,
I've read the arguments, but honestly, I never played a duelist, and I never had one in my game. I like the concept, but have no foot to stand on making a judgement call on your proposed house rule.I did want to respond to let you know you aren't being ignored by everyone, just don't have anything to add to the conversation. :(
I think the ability is reasonable now, as compared to it being ridiculous before. I think that the parry ability allows a warrior to gain that "very hard to hit" reputation without just dropping a big AC bonus on the character.
I'm also entertained by the reaction to this. I wouldn't really expect a change in an AC bonus would be seriously described as a "sick offensive joke."
I'm still not seeing how "sick offensive joke" becomes a reasonable description of a rule change.
From where I sit, the abilties the Duelist currently get are quite reasonable and I prefer them this way to what came before. The penalty one's attacks take when using parry don't look that bad to me when compared to the penalties caused by fighting defensively or using combat expertise. Of course it seems likely to be different for your games, but for mine it seems to fit right in.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I think it's already been stated in this thread, but I'm going to state it again for clarity's sake:
In 3.5, duelists could not wear any kind of armor or they lost a lot of their fancy abilities.
The new duelist CAN. So, in response to the OP's "7 point AC nerf," get yourself a +3 chain shirt. There's your 7 points back. Yeah, it's not touch AC. Not that big of a deal, IMO.
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(And Fatespinner, it is a big deal, when touch attacks, particularly ranged touch attacks, are such a big part of the game. What good is an evasive duelist who can ninja dodge arrows but fails to do so for a simple hurled orb?)
He may not "evade" the arrow, but deflect it with a skilled blade, the same deflection is useless against most ranged touch items. fragile vials of acid explode, magical rays don't reflect etc. The point of ranged touch is any touch might be deadly, where as a duelist defense comes from both agility and a screen of steel.