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Okay, I forgot to mention we're starting at 1st-level as well. The specialist powers for the school of illusion are:
Extended Illusions (Su): Any illusion spell you cast with a duration of “concentration” lasts a number of additional rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level after you stop maintaining concentration (minimum +1 round). At 20th level, you can make one illusion spell with a duration of “concentration” become permanent. You can have no more than one illusion made permanent in this way at one time. If you designate another illusion as permanent, the previous permanent illusion ends.
Blinding Ray (Sp): As a standard action you can fire a shimmering ray at any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The ray causes creatures to be blinded for 1 round. Creatures with more Hit Dice than your wizard level are dazzled for 1 round instead. You can use this ability a number
of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
Invisibility Field (Sp): At 8th level, you can make yourself invisible as a swift action for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. This otherwise functions as
greater invisibility.
I am thinking of making evocation and necromancy my opposition schools.
I would love to help out, but I am not familiar with the new pathfinder rules.
Sean Mahoney
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Well you can probably ditch necromancy safely. Im not too keen on the sacrifice of evocation. YOur going to need the fire power thats for sure. So I would say give up Enchantment. You can always spontaneously cast an enchantment spell from your arcane bonded object if you need one. Well with feats now I suggest Combat Casting, and Spell focus Illusion at first level.
I was planning on keeping Enchantment and sacrificing one of the "combat" schools of magic. I was thinking of keeping Conjuration at the expense of Evocation.
Combat Casting and Spell Focus (illusion) are great choices. Thank you.
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Honestly it depends a lot on the concept you are going for.
I mean are you going for the more traditional illusionist or the most powerful wizard you can who also does ilusion a lot. Or does he have a theme or concept. Perhaps a reason from his history on why etc?
Our group is about to play the Curse of the Crimson Throne. Myself and another player are looking at running young nobles from the same family.
My character has been secretly tutored by her mentor in the arcane arts, as she is not a member of the Acadamae or any other school in Korvosa. Simply, her mentor Arius has determined she has a wizard's ability and has trained her as his apprentice.
She has kept this training as secret as possible, even from her family. Her maid and other servants have noticed some odd looking books with strange writing around her rooms, though these occurrences are rare and don't happen too often.
So, my idea is that she has focused on less destructive magic and specialised in areas that she can incorporate into her daily life - such as spells from the schools of enchantment and illusion.
However, I am not too sure that giving up the school of transmutation is a good idea. That school has a lot of practical application. If I can convince my GM to allow me to use the orb spells, conjuration can be a good alternative to evocation. Just the AoE spells are limited. My original idea was to sacrifice evocation and necromancy.
The rules have not changed much since the BETA. So, any suggestions on feats would be awesome!
Your advice has been great in the past Sean, any ideas?
I didn't really know beta at all either... I browsed through it but since, as you know, I like to delve deeply into the nuances of the rules I didn't want to do so and have them changed on me (I am guessing it would feel like the change from 3.0 to 3.5).
I can tell you in general that illusion is either very powerful or very weak and it all depends on the DM. I would have a talk about what you can and can not do with illusion spells (specifically the more open ones) to find out how you will fair as an illusionist under this DM. It is similar to enchantment this way in that I have seen a lot of DMs rule very differently on Charm Person from game to game (from giving you control of a charmed creature in combat to just saying they like you but you chose the wrong side of the fight so they look sad as they keep hitting you).
HERE is a link to a discussion on the uses of illusions to give you some ideas of what type of things you should be asking if you can do with illusions.
The few DMs I have run under while trying to use them have been more of the mind of gimping anything I tried so I haven't really delved to deeply into illusions, but every game is different. You will need a good understanding of the one you are in when making choices.
Now... all that said, even if your DM is a hard nosed, anti-illusionist in his interpretations of your creativity, you can still play an effective illusionist. You just have to know that your focus just changed from battlefield control and warping peoples perception of reality to buffer.
Sorry no specifics to go on this time.
Sean Mahoney
Complete Mage splatbook says dump transmutation and necromancy; keep conjuration to combine real objects with illusions to create maximum confusion.
I have to strongly caution against ever dumping transmutation. Unless Pathfinder has changed the spell line up significantly, there is just too much in there you don't want to loose.
Be a little cautious of dumping evocation unless you are still allowed spells from other sources (like the spell compendium, in which case the orbs give you wonderful blasting power with no SR).
I do agree that conjuration is a very strong ally to illusion though. If you summon some real creatures one round and then make an illusion of summoning more the next, it is unlikely that anyone would question this. More fun is to summon a wall of fire or stone as an illusion and once they know they can ignore it summon a real one and watch them run into it.
However, all that is really (once again) dependent on your DM. If he is the type who has 'all-knowing' NPCs who are magically only suspicious when you cast illusions, then you will have less utility with them.
Sean Mahoney
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Complete Mage splatbook says dump transmutation and necromancy; keep conjuration to combine real objects with illusions to create maximum confusion.I have to strongly caution against ever dumping transmutation. Unless Pathfinder has changed the spell line up significantly, there is just too much in there you don't want to loose.
Be a little cautious of dumping evocation unless you are still allowed spells from other sources (like the spell compendium, in which case the orbs give you wonderful blasting power with no SR).
I do agree that conjuration is a very strong ally to illusion though. If you summon some real creatures one round and then make an illusion of summoning more the next, it is unlikely that anyone would question this. More fun is to summon a wall of fire or stone as an illusion and once they know they can ignore it summon a real one and watch them run into it.
However, all that is really (once again) dependent on your DM. If he is the type who has 'all-knowing' NPCs who are magically only suspicious when you cast illusions, then you will have less utility with them.
Sean Mahoney
Sean, thank you! :)
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Combat Casting and Spell Focus (illusion) are great choices. Thank you.I would think you would benefit more from Improved Initiative than Combat Casting.
Prohibited Schools: Necromancy and Enchantment.
What's the level of your illusionist, btw?
My illusionist is level 1. I am reluctant to drop enchantment as I really want access to the spells contained in that school.
I am thinking that evocation and necromancy will be the opposition schools. I know I lose a lot of blasting power, but I am hoping to make up for that in some other way in the future.
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If you have access to the Spell Compendium (specifically the orb spells) then I am going to support your dropping of the Evoc school and here is the key why. Look up the spell Shadow Evocation. It is the answer (albeit later in play) to your loss of the Kaboom spells. You will want a couple of Orb's to help cover the loss of the evoc's. Illusion, as Sean pointed out, is very very dm dependant. Also make sure you pound those Spell focus feats as well as your Int as you need those DC's as high as you can possibly reach. Nothing is as dissatisfying to a spell slinger as a successful saving throw.
If you are using the Orb spells you can allow Spell Penetration to slip further back before acquiring it, but sooner or later you'll probably need that also.
I also advocate, as a DM and Player, the judicial use of Scribe scroll. If your dm gives you any down time Scribe those scrolls. Especially if you are using the new rules as there is no XP cost. When I play wizards I like to have a half dozen scrolls with those spells that I always need in that one situation but never bother to memorize.
Thank you all so much for the advice so far! :D
Don't drop conjuration if you can - if only for teleport and its variations. Plus, "real" objects are of great use if you want to add some confusion. Never mind the excellent orbs.
Keeping Enchantment is wise... BUT.. enchantment heavily depends upon high DC saves (if at all possible) not being made, teh same as Illusions.
So either you will have to invest heavily into DC-Boosting feats or overall lose utility from either Illusion or Enchantment over time. There are some very nice enchantment-based rays in the SC though which circumvent some of these problems.
Drop Evocation if you want to. These days, many of its effects can be duplicated by conjuration, usually without dealing with spell resistance.
I would be... squeamish about dropping Necromancy, because basically you will loose "Enervation", to my mind by far the best and only functional debuff in the core-game, especially since it cannot be dispelled. Other necromantic stuff is pretty good as well (such as False Life and Magic Jar) and hard to duplicate. There is plenty of other stuff that is great straightaway, starting with the highly utilitarian Ray of Enfeeblement (And its SC twin Ray of Clumsiness ).
Consider dropping divination (methinks its not an impossible to drop school these days anymore) - especially if you don't use it much beyond identify and detect magic. Lot's of players just don't and it is a school best used with a good intuition just _who_to scan when. miss that particular moment means it becomes almost useless.
Abjuration... IF you can live without Dispel Magic, drop it. Dispel, and to some resist energy, is about the only spell in it you will really _need_. Mage Armour becomes redundant in the later game anyway (when bracers of armour start appearing) and shield is a useful substitute anyway. You can even write your scrolls of it on days off, than have them ready for use on "adventuring days".. bending the rules IMHO, but well. In an emergency, buy some potions of the stuff... mage armor lasts a minimum of one hour anyway, for 25gp a bottle/pop.
Do not drop Transmutation. Far too many useful self-buffs and other stuff.
To my mind, given what background you provided I would go with dropping Evocation and Divination/abjuration (your pick).
As for race, go human or half-elf and invest the +2 ability bonus in INT.
As for feats, "Spell focus : Illusion is rather obvious. Consider Skill Focus : Bluff which has been severely upgraded in Pathfinder, and since cross-class skills are non-existant anymore in PRPG, no real handicaps. It will probably be helpful throughout many of the social encounters and be a great help with Illusions, especially if you have to fake your own reaction to something suddenly appearing. Go with the "focus Item" familiar option, I recommend a ring to keep your hands free and be less obvious.
Overall - get your GM to allow the "Spell Compendium" from 3.5 which will add a vast number of uesful magics to your arsenal
Abjuration... IF you can live without Dispel Magic, drop it. Dispel, and to some resist energy, is about the only spell in it you will really _need_.
Live without Dispel Magic?!?! <cough> <sputter> This is unheard of!!!
Ok, with that out of my system... it really is a valid option as long as someone else in your party (like the cleric) is taking on dispelling duty. Some have said that any wizard that is casting a spell that appears on the cleric list is being a chump. If you agree, then Abjuration is a valid drop.
Mage Armour becomes redundant in the later game anyway (when bracers of armour start appearing) and shield is a useful substitute anyway.
Unless they changed this in Pathfinder, Mage Armor is a conjuration, so dropping Abjuration would not even mean you loose that. If they did change it, then Abjurant Champion just got a lot more powerful (mage armor provides +9 AC and Shield +9 AC).
Sean Mahoney
Abjuration... IF you can live without Dispel Magic, drop it. Dispel, and to some resist energy, is about the only spell in it you will really _need_.Live without Dispel Magic?!?! <cough> <sputter> This is unheard of!!!
Ok, with that out of my system... it really is a valid option as long as someone else in your party (like the cleric) is taking on dispelling duty. Some have said that any wizard that is casting a spell that appears on the cleric list is being a chump. If you agree, then Abjuration is a valid drop.
...
Unless they changed this in Pathfinder, Mage Armor is a conjuration, so dropping Abjuration would not even mean you loose that. If they did change it, then Abjurant Champion just got a lot more powerful (mage armor provides +9 AC and Shield +9 AC).Sean Mahoney
Sorry about getting Shield and Mage Armour crossed over ( we exchanged those spells schools in our campaign for a couple of reasons , but it is a house rule). mea culpa^^
But since mage armour is the stronger of the two buffs, this actually strengthens my argument even more.As for "living without Dispel Magic" - well now you have heard of it^^ Go tell your grandchildren.
To be frank over the last half dozen years (filled with approximately 4 DnD/Pathfinder-ruled campaigns ) anyone hardly ever Dispelled something as a wizard or sorcerer.... usually the Druids and clerics actually did, yes, if at at all, and even the bards did... mostly straight away at the beginning of major combats to strip enchantments from suspiciously-clerical opponents, just in case... while the wizard nuked away with some blazing salvoes. He is superior at that, outclassing the other casting classes, and tactically speaking should spend the opening moves by destroying as much of the oppositions assets as possible in the first few rounds (usually meaning the oppsitions HP ) and play to his strengths. Not just walk about debuffing the opponents priestly supertanks, so his melees have an easier day in the trenches.
And overall there really are only three uses for Dispel Magic - Removal of oppositions buffs, Counter spell and "cleansing" magic in downtime.
Counterspelling ? Now... THAT... never happens in any group I have seen, heard of or even GMed for. Why ? Because it's just so much easier to strike any hostile caster with a readied magic missile or other minor-yield spell and drive his required concentration check into unearthly realms, causing him to fail and loose the spell.
Unlike Dispel Magic which requires a much more evened out or (given the nature of heroic fights) tacked against the PC caster comparative level check.
Plus, the OP intended to play an illusionist, and most illusions both require concentration to maintain (making slipping in a Dispel Magic just a bit awkward ) and even counter-productive when using the AoE effect.
And the third application, getting rid of worrying enchantments etc. from an ally between encounters is something equally well accomplished through casting it by use of his wizardly focus item.
Or from a scroll or wand...
Or to just purchase it from a spellcasting ally.
Perhaps even get a Runestaff of Abjuration to always have it on hand.
But definitely NOT worth to include an entire and otherwise extremly defensive school if you need to "get rid" of two fields of magic
from my personal observations Dispel Magic, neither in our campaigns, nor in the conventions I attended, actually ever got used much, but I agree, everybody had it loaded in his arsenal.... they just never used it, usually because there was some feasible alternative or more pressings concerns. Much like a psychological safety blanket, I guess.
One really doesn't need it or at least can get the same mileage out of a single use item most of the time. Write a scroll or even a dozen of these - you are a wizard after all !
And yes, there are more "useful" spells on the abjuration list, but stuff like Anti-Magic Field or Disjunction or Dimensional Anchor. Never to mention Freedom or other excluxsive stuff Benefits of which will likely not manifest until pretty late in the AP, say like in chapter 5 or 6... or just never.
And if the OP insists on/feels awkward without Dispel Magic he should check out "Arcane Turmoil (complete mage) which actually accomplishes the wished for effect much more handily and at 2nd level. Its abjuration, though^^
A bunch of really good points
Your right, of course.
I guess I am looking at it more from a DM of Paizo adventure paths stand point. After the first adventure you really do want someone to open up with dispelling attack on the first round in order to debuff the opponent. A lot of the more difficult encounters would be a LOT easier if this were done more often.
Of course, it isn't done more often. Most people just go on ignoring it. And your right, the second level dispel that only functions as a targeted dispel is great for this. Throw in some stuff to buff up your caster level check on dispels (dispelling cord, etc.) and this is a pretty darn good way to do things (one spell takes out many is always very nice).
The group I run tends to not ever use it even when it would have been extremely useful for them to do so. Xenesha in RotRL is a good example.
It is tough to make call to keep a whole school for one series of spells though, so I agree it is a valid option.
Sean Mahoney
A bunch of really good pointsYour right, of course.
I guess I am looking at it more from a DM of Paizo adventure paths stand point. After the first adventure you really do want someone to open up with dispelling attack on the first round in order to debuff the opponent. A lot of the more difficult encounters would be a LOT easier if this were done more often.
Of course, it isn't done more often. Most people just go on ignoring it. And your right, the second level dispel that only functions as a targeted dispel is great for this. Throw in some stuff to buff up your caster level check on dispels (dispelling cord, etc.) and this is a pretty darn good way to do things (one spell takes out many is always very nice).
The group I run tends to not ever use it even when it would have been extremely useful for them to do so. Xenesha in RotRL is a good example.
It is tough to make call to keep a whole school for one series of spells though, so I agree it is a valid option.
Sean Mahoney
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I see where you are coming from - and regarding some of the valid points made in another thread (regarding railroading) I see the problem with some "one fight wonders" who buff up, but within the limits of the AP can never reach that fighting peak again. Problematic - personally I retouch many of them to give them a more realistic feel. One of the few quirks of the APs which I don't really like, but luckily the players never need to see, are the "custom made for their villainous moments" NPCs prevalent with some authors. If those NPCs always drank their valued potions, cast their buffs of scroll s etc etc etc. every time they heard strange noises down the hallway.... yeah right, about once a week at least.
Expensive habit of theirs... In all honesty, it grates, feeling just sooo lazy. And Xenesha was a pretty sick example of "buffed up to the degree of unfairness", especially since she pretty much comes out of nowhere with little advance warning . Both campaigns of the RotRL among friends ended with her plastering every character in those groups to the walls in gory smears.
The usefulness of Dispel Magic - IMHO - strongly relies on the precision used in the description of NPCs, their appearance and their interaction with their surrounding. If the GM actually states "your strike falls true, but the is turned away by some shimmering force enveloping the villain".... the player has clue that magic is involved and a dispel might actually help.
But a simple "you miss" or "he saves" doesn't give the player much information on whether to dispel or not.
Agreed with Xenesha above those clues would have been pretty obvious^^
Another thought on Dispel Magic is that it is most useful in "boss" fights, but the boss is likely 3-4 levels higher than the caster of Dispel Magic. As a result you aren't that likely to take down a bunch of protections. In order for it to be a good tactic you really do have to put some time and effort into pumping up the dispel check higher than just a caster level check.
Sean Mahoney
... Plus you have energy protection spells and shield. You could laugh in the face of danger and make it a prohibited school relying upon your bonded object to cast a certain spell, and have the cleric do alot of the dispelling and energy protecting, but that will place a bigger burden on the cleric.
Checked the PRPG In detail last night in preparation for the weekends session. Using the bonded object to cast a spell from your forbidden schools is not an option anymore - explicitly ruled out in fact. You can still prepare those spells, but they cost double the number of slots each now. Also item creation with said spells is more difficult, but not impossible, hence writing scrolls remains a feasible tactic
As for energy protection... hardly ever needed unless you _know_ that you sneak into a Red Dragon's den, say. Second guessing just what elemental magic the opposition is packing just doesn't work that well these days.
And IMHO the cleric with a "resist energy,mass", which, if it is obviously not going to get needed can be transformed into curative magic, usually is the better platform for loading such a specialised spell. And the "burden" of the poor cleric got really eased through the introduction of channel energy, aka "the healing light" mass heal, freeing much of that class' spell expenditure from healing for other stuff,
As for "Dispel Magic", it DID get a major work-over, inasmuch as it now only affects a single spell/ target, whether it was cast as targeted or area-effect. It still checks multiple spells though until one gets cancelled out. Greater Dispel magic now at least affects one spell/four levels.
The arbitrary cap of the level bonus was removed on both spells, hence the third level spell will at least remain a viable tool at higher levels.
On the other hands, buffed up super-priests are rejoicing the world over....
The Illusion school specialist boni themselves are strong and pretty handy (especially the "greater invis as a swift action" power at eighth level. I would recommend planning one of the "elemental attack" feats from "Complete Mage", though, since the "blinding beam" school power now has a limited number of uses per day.
On the other hands, buffed up super-priests are rejoicing the world over....
<sighs in relief>
This is important. These poor priests really didn't have much going for them until now.
Sean Mahoney
On the other hands, buffed up super-priests are rejoicing the world over....<sighs in relief>
This is important. These poor priests really didn't have much going for them until now.
Sean Mahoney
"poor priests" ? wtf^^ *pulls out a scroll of Greater Dispel Magic*
"poor priests" ? wtf^^ *pulls out a scroll of Greater Dispel Magic*
BWAHAHAHAAH