No, Increasing intelligence doesn't grant retroacive skill points.
Constitution (Con)
Constitution represents your character's health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character's hit points, so the ability is important for all classes. Some creatures, such as undead and constructs, do not have a Constitution score. Their modifier is +0 for any Constitution-based checks. A character with a Constitution score of 0 is dead.
You apply your character's Constitution modifier to:
* Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he advances in level).
* Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison, disease, and similar threats.
If a character's Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character's hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.
Intelligence (Int)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects their spellcasting ability in many ways. Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3. A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose. Some creatures do not possess an Intelligence score. Their modifier is +0 for any Intelligence-based skills or checks.
You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:
* The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.
* The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.
* Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Linguistics, and Spellcraft checks.
A wizard gains bonus spells based on his Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell's level.
No, Increasing intelligence doesn't grant retroacive skill points.
Your assumption is faulty; there's no mention that there aren't gained retroactively, so they might very well be.
I too recall the mention that TriO does.
No, Increasing intelligence doesn't grant retroacive skill points.Your assumption is faulty; there's no mention that there aren't gained retroactively, so they might very well be.
I too recall the mention that TriO does.
I know you could not in 3.5, and I never saw any mention of them changing it.
SRD 3.5
When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. [b]A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence. [b/]
Pathfinder does not mention any changes at all.
PS: Why am I quoting 3.5 rules? It is because pathfinder is a variation of that game, and I consider it to have the default rules unless otherwise stated.
These boards are updating too slowly.
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Skill points are retroactively gained in the case of permanent Intelligence boost.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Your assumption is faultyNo, its not.
Nowhere is it written that it DOES increase skillpoints retroactively. And if you look at constitution, where it is explicitly written that it does increase hitpoints retroactively...
Yes, it is.
I never claimed the omission of any comment regarding the matter meant they would be added retroactively. I only pointed out that one can't assume they aren't in such a situation, either.
Skill points are retroactively gained in the case of permanent Intelligence boost.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Much thanks; I've been searching for that for a while now, and it was starting to drive me batty.
Thanks. Now I would like to know why this information was not put in the skills section or in the ability score section like the con bonus to HP was.
"Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
however! take a look at items that grand permanet int bonuses: ex HEADBAND OF VAST INTELLIGENCE: ...Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours
the headband is worn. A headband of vast intelligence has one
skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. A er being worn
for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in
those skills equal to the wearer s total Hit Dice. These ranks do
not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These
skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is
listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly
determined Knowledge skills.
perhaps there is a reason why the headband grands a fixed skill... think about it.
perhaps there is a reason why the headband grands a fixed skill... think about it.
I did notice this too, as I am translating my 3.5 Wizard. I think the designers forgot to delete the skills part in the permanent bonuses section. I am playing it this way (add the skill ranks associated to the headband, but not extra skills for increasing Int), because then we are applying that bonus twice.
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I did notice this too, as I am translating my 3.5 Wizard. I think the designers forgot to delete the skills part in the permanent bonuses section. I am playing it this way (add the skill ranks associated to the headband, but not extra skills for increasing Int), because then we are applying that bonus twice.perhaps there is a reason why the headband grands a fixed skill... think about it.
There's no reason to double dip, nor for Paizo to have taken the portion of the permanent bonuses with skills out of the book. The headband of intelligence isn't a permanent increase in intelligence, hence the mention of skills in the item itself. In my opinion any bonus to a stat from a spell or item is temporary, even if it is "permanent" in the sense that you may never take that item off the entire campaign.
I think it keeps things simple to just grant the bonus skill points at level up. it's easier to keep track of it.
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Nethys is correct (obviously). This was a huge discussion in the Alpha and Beta forums, and the final decision was to make them retroactive, among other things, to make the creation of high-level NPCs easier. With retroactive Int bonuses to skills, you no longer had to worry about at which levels an NPC gained his/her Int so as to determine the correct number of skill point. With retro active skill points, just look at the final Int and level, and that's how many skill points they got at every previous level.
BTW- Nethys' quote is on p555. It would have been nice if they had said "This might cause you to gain retroactive skill points, hit points, etc..."
Skill points are retroactively gained in the case of permanent Intelligence boost.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Skill points are retroactively gained in the case of permanent Intelligence boost.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Also, page 8 of the conversion guide appears to state that permanent increases to Intelligence grant retroactive skill points.
Finally, permanent alterations to your character’s Intelligence score now affect his number of skill points. Table 4–1 (on page 87) summarizes the number of skill ranks granted by each class per level.
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I do not believe the Int increase is retro. All the language you people have been quoting seems to indicate to me it refers to "from this point on". Nothing speaks specifically to retroactively applying. I fail to understand why they would expressly mention it under Con and then NOT under Int. That ALONE speaks volumes as to intent. The language as written seems to indicate that you simply need to remember to add any skill points or save bonuses your new Int level provides from this point forward. If you retroactively receive skill points why would EVERY single high level character not purchase a Headband of Intellect and get huge skill point increases. Where do you draw the line? Do you also receive retro bonus languages? What if I take 2 new skills with my new points I had previously never had, do I now receive the bonus +3 that I would as a 1st level character? It is, in my opinion, the height of cheese to even suggest that they are retro.
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If you retroactively receive skill points why would EVERY single high level character not purchase a Headband of Intellect and get huge skill point increases.
That is EXACTLY why the Headband of Vast Intelligence (aka Intellect) comes with certain skills already hardwired in, 1 skill per +2. "The headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total HD. These ranks do not stack with the ranks the wearer already posses." What it is describing is EXACTLY granting retroactive skill points based on intelligence.
Argue or disagree on this one if you want, but this is one of those topics I've been following for two years. Unless Jason pops in and says otherwise, just trust us, they're retroactive.
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I do not believe the Int increase is retro. All the language you people have been quoting seems to indicate to me it refers to "from this point on". Nothing speaks specifically to retroactively applying. I fail to understand why they would expressly mention it under Con and then NOT under Int. That ALONE speaks volumes as to intent. The language as written seems to indicate that you simply need to remember to add any skill points or save bonuses your new Int level provides from this point forward. If you retroactively receive skill points why would EVERY single high level character not purchase a Headband of Intellect and get huge skill point increases. Where do you draw the line? Do you also receive retro bonus languages? What if I take 2 new skills with my new points I had previously never had, do I now receive the bonus +3 that I would as a 1st level character? It is, in my opinion, the height of cheese to even suggest that they are retro.
Intelligence gives retroactive skill points. This is fact. They told everyone at PaizoCon, it's covered in the Permanent bonuses under Intelligence, and it's covered in the Headband of Intellect. It was done for ease in making NPCs or high level PCs without wondering where the Intelligence increase occurred. Same reason why they nixed cross-class skills costing double the points.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
As far as the skill points not stacking on the Headband of Intelligence, I think part of that is meant to clarify that those ranks disappear when the headband is removed.
All the ability-increasing items say something like 'After this item has been worn for 24 hours, this becomes a permanent bonus.' I assume that this means it must be worn for 24 hours before extra skill points, or hit points, are factored in, but said point will still disappear when the item is removed. Otherwise, why not pass the same Belt of Physical Perfection around to everyone in the party so they can all have +6 bonuses?
Ah, my wizard just got skilly! Yay, me!
Intelligence gives retroactive skill points. This is fact. They told everyone at PaizoCon, it's covered in the Permanent bonuses under Intelligence, and it's covered in the Headband of Intellect. It was done for ease in making NPCs or high level PCs without wondering where the Intelligence increase occurred. Same reason why they nixed cross-class skills costing double the points.Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Retroactive skill point increases does simplify high level character creation, it's true. By itself, it makes the total number of skill points an automatic calculation.
But, surely this is counteracted by the favoured class rule? Every level in a favoured class may or may not add one skill point to the character's total. It seems that they have solved the problem, only to then re-introduce it.
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But, surely this is counteracted by the favoured class rule? Every level in a favoured class may or may not add one skill point to the character's total. It seems that they have solved the problem, only to then re-introduce it.
Naw. 17th level wizard? Give her 17 extra hp or 17 skill points. wizard 5/fighter 3/rogue 8, just decide which one she likes best and that many skill points. It's more of one flat bonus. Different skill point bonus due to Int were a pain because it could be +3 for levels 1-3, +4 for 4-11, +5 for 12-19, and +6 at 20, unless she went for Wis on the 3rd ability bump... too many different numbers.
Okay, yeah, it does complicate things a little tiny bit, but nothing compared to that old nightmare.
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It was done for ease in making NPCs or high level PCs without wondering where the Intelligence increase occurred. Same reason why they nixed cross-class skills costing double the points.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Thank you for bringing this up. It actually makes sense (a lot).
Before, I couldn't really accept retroactive increase in skill points. Thinking of NPCs calculations, is an insta-answer.
It still grates with the feeling I have of a rational RPG mechanic, but compared to the hassle it was, that just wanes away in a blink.
But, surely this is counteracted by the favoured class rule? Every level in a favoured class may or may not add one skill point to the character's total. It seems that they have solved the problem, only to then re-introduce it.Naw. 17th level wizard? Give her 17 extra hp or 17 skill points. wizard 5/fighter 3/rogue 8, just decide which one she likes best and that many skill points. It's more of one flat bonus. Different skill point bonus due to Int were a pain because it could be +3 for levels 1-3, +4 for 4-11, +5 for 12-19, and +6 at 20, unless she went for Wis on the 3rd ability bump... too many different numbers.
Okay, yeah, it does complicate things a little tiny bit, but nothing compared to that old nightmare.
Fair enough, I guess was thinking more in terms of a DM checking a high level character. Let's say that a player creates that 17th level wizard for a one-off high level adventure. He allocates his character 8 extra skill points, and 9 extra hit points. A DM would not easily be able to check whether his character was valid or not. It might be impossible if they rolled for hit points each level.
Jason's response in the forum for GenCon GM's:
Ugh... Can't sleep.
Noticed this bit in the Appendices on Ability bonuses:
This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses.(Emphasis mine) If the PC's intelligence score goes up, do they get retroactive skill ranks?Yes.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Fair enough, I guess was thinking more in terms of a DM checking a high level character. Let's say that a player creates that 17th level wizard for a one-off high level adventure. He allocates his character 8 extra skill points, and 9 extra hit points. A DM would not easily be able to check whether his character was valid or not. It might be impossible if they rolled for hit points each level.
For making a character when a DM will check I usually place my calculations as well, in fact it's the exact same with skill point total calculations (Where did you get that +2 to Bluff from...?). I usually put a 1+3+3+5 or whatever to show the DM where I got my skill points from. On the same note I would show my DM something like 10d8+10+10 for HP, 10 con, 10 Favored class. All it really requires is player/DM interaction to figure it out.
Thanks for the heads up everyone! This is something I really appreciate knowing.
Meh, it makes zero sense in game, but whatever... if Paizo says it works that way...
Director of Brand Strategy
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Meh, it makes zero sense in game, but whatever... if Paizo says it works that way...
You can do it however you want in your game. Paizo isn't going to come to your house and make you add extra skill points to an NPC. But when they design NPCs or balance abilities against INT for high level PCs, they'll be assuming characters are getting retroactive skill points.
You can do it however you want in your game. Paizo isn't going to come to your house and make you add extra skill points to an NPC.
O.O
They are too!
*Locks doors and hides under bed... gets a 4 for Stealth*
D'oh!
Meh, it makes zero sense in game, but whatever... if Paizo says it works that way...
Cause you know jumping an full intelligence band wouldn't make you suddenly realize new connections to old skills or new ways of doing something you've struggled with before.
You got smarter... during that time you were also practicing new skills... you just practiced them really well. Makes about as much sense as gaining a new spell level and 2 new spells known for going to sleep after killing a storm giant.
Meh, it makes zero sense in game, but whatever... if Paizo says it works that way...Cause you know jumping an full intelligence band wouldn't make you suddenly realize new connections to old skills or new ways of doing something you've struggled with before.
That's what the +3 bonus to all Int based skills (from the +6 Headband) represents to me. Adding an additional slew of retroactive skill points on top of that is just overkill in my opinion.
That's what the +3 bonus to all Int based skills (from the +6 Headband) represents to me. Adding an additional slew of retroactive skill points on top of that is just overkill in my opinion.Meh, it makes zero sense in game, but whatever... if Paizo says it works that way...Cause you know jumping an full intelligence band wouldn't make you suddenly realize new connections to old skills or new ways of doing something you've struggled with before.
I'm not talking about the Headband. Besides all of the other stats that are increased fully affect whatever they increase. So why shouldn't Int?
Because you're already getting bonuses to those skills by virtue of having a higher Int. Whether by the headband or a tome and stat bumps, my point still stands. Say you spend every stat bump you get to level 20 on Intelligence and buy a Tome of Int +5. You're suggesting the player should get the +5 bonus to Int based skills from having an Int 10 points higher -and- get retroactive skill points for levels they gained in the past? That just seems like more than a bit much to me.
I know Paizo rules differently, but in my games you get the bonus to your Int skills but not the retroactive points. It's not that hard to figure it out if you're making a high level PC or NPC. Just write out a little chart on scratch paper and bam, there you have it. It takes like 5 minutes or less.
Okay, I'm a little confused. Is the official Paizo position that if you have a Headband of Vast Intellect (+6 to Int) and wear it for 24 hrs., that you get:
1. Intelligence raised by +6
2. A +3 bonus to Int based skills
3. Whatever new skills are assigned to that particular item (or random ones, if no skills are listed)
AND
4. 3 additional skill pts per each level gained from that point on,
5. 3 retroactive skill pts for each level already obtained
Or is just 1,2, and 3?
Because you're already getting bonuses to those skills by virtue of having a higher Int. Whether by the headband or a tome and stat bumps, my point still stands. Say you spend every stat bump you get to level 20 on Intelligence and buy a Tome of Int +5. You're suggesting the player should get the +5 bonus to Int based skills from having an Int 10 points higher -and- get retroactive skill points for levels they gained in the past? That just seems like more than a bit much to me.
I know Paizo rules differently, but in my games you get the bonus to your Int skills but not the retroactive points. It's not that hard to figure it out if you're making a high level PC or NPC. Just write out a little chart on scratch paper and bam, there you have it. It takes like 5 minutes or less.
Absolutely I think they should:
After all if you increase Con you get a bonus to Save throws and all those retroactive HP.
IF you increase DEX you get a bonus to skills, Init, Save throws, ranged to hit and AC.
If you increase Str you get a bonus to skills, melee damage, melee to hit, and carrying capacity.
If you increase Wis you get a bonus to skills, and a save throw
So why shouldn't Int give a bonus to everything just like the other stats do?
Because you're already getting bonuses to those skills by virtue of having a higher Int. Whether by the headband or a tome and stat bumps, my point still stands. Say you spend every stat bump you get to level 20 on Intelligence and buy a Tome of Int +5. You're suggesting the player should get the +5 bonus to Int based skills from having an Int 10 points higher -and- get retroactive skill points for levels they gained in the past? That just seems like more than a bit much to me.
I know Paizo rules differently, but in my games you get the bonus to your Int skills but not the retroactive points. It's not that hard to figure it out if you're making a high level PC or NPC. Just write out a little chart on scratch paper and bam, there you have it. It takes like 5 minutes or less.
Absolutely I think they should:
After all if you increase Con you get a bonus to Save throws and all those retroactive HP.
IF you increase DEX you get a bonus to skills, Init, Save throws, ranged to hit and AC.
If you increase Str you get a bonus to skills, melee damage, melee to hit, and carrying capacity.
If you increase Wis you get a bonus to skills, and a save throw
So why shouldn't Int give a bonus to everything just like the other stats do?
We'll have to chalk that up to difference in opinion then... I absolutely don't agree that the player or NPC should get to have their cake and eat it too, so to speak when it comes to Int bonuses. Take comfort in the fact that apparently Paizo agrees with you.
Okay, I'm a little confused. Is the official Paizo position that if you have a Headband of Vast Intellect (+6 to Int) and wear it for 24 hrs., that you get:
1. Intelligence raised by +6
2. A +3 bonus to Int based skills
3. Whatever new skills are assigned to that particular item (or random ones, if no skills are listed)
AND
4. 3 additional skill pts per each level gained from that point on,
5. 3 retroactive skill pts for each level already obtainedOr is just 1,2, and 3?
From what I understand, officially it's just 1, 2 and 3 for a magic item.
Good, that's what I was hoping.
On a related note, once the ability increase becomes "permanent" i.e. after 24 hrs, are the additional Intelligence points subject to being damaged/drained? Or would they be treated differently, i.e. the character would always have a minimum intelligence equal to the modifier of the Headband?
Okay, I'm a little confused. Is the official Paizo position that if you have a Headband of Vast Intellect (+6 to Int) and wear it for 24 hrs., that you get:
1. Intelligence raised by +6
2. A +3 bonus to Int based skills
3. Whatever new skills are assigned to that particular item (or random ones, if no skills are listed)
AND
4. 3 additional skill pts per each level gained from that point on,
5. 3 retroactive skill pts for each level already obtainedOr is just 1,2, and 3?
Here's how it breaks down :
Headband of Intellect +6 (Craft(Arms & Armor), Handle Animal, Survival, Draconic, Sylvan, Elven)
This item gives you three skills with ranks equal to your level (Craft(Arms & Armor), Handle Animal, and Survival). It also grants you 3 languages (Draconic, Sylvan, Elven). This assumes you have worn it for 24 hours. If you already have one (or all) of those skills, you are just not getting as much use from the headband (although you do at least get max ranks for your level, which generally is worth a bit). If you already speak those langauges, oh well, no benefit there.
Tome Of Intellect +4
You gain a +4 Inherent bonus to Intelligence. At your next level, you gain your normal skill points for your new level, plus you gain an additional +2 skill points per previous level you had, then spend them normally. You would also gain 2 languages at your next level.
Normal Stat Increase (Assuming your Int was odd)
You gain a +1 bonus to Intelligence. Since you gain it as part of leveling up, you gain all your skill points for this level (using your new higher Int bonus), plus you gain 1 skill point for each previous level you had (for example, if you boosted your int from 13 to 14 at level 4, and you were a rogue, you'd gain 8 (class) + 2 (Int) + 3 (Retroactive) skill points at 4th level. If Rogue was your favored class, you could also take another skill point if you chose to, or put it into HP. You'd also gain a new language when you level up (and of course, if you put some of those skill points into linguistics, you'd gain languages for those as well).
The oddity in this would be a headband that provides the linguistics skill. So for example, if you had a +2 Int headband with the skill Linguistics inherent in it, you'd need to list a language per level (1-Common, 2-Dwarven, 3-Elven, 4-Sylvan, 5-Ignan, etc), in addition to the free language it would give for being a +2. Honestly, a single +2 Linguistics headband can basically be a permanent tongues spells at higher levels. :)
Good, that's what I was hoping.
On a related note, once the ability increase becomes "permanent" i.e. after 24 hrs, are the additional Intelligence points subject to being damaged/drained? Or would they be treated differently, i.e. the character would always have a minimum intelligence equal to the modifier of the Headband?
They should be treated normally. IE: If you drop someone to 7 INT via INT damage, and they then lose their +6 headband before they can heal it, they basically become an animal, unable to think other than beastially. If you put it back on, they go back to 7 and can start acting like a sentient (but slow) individual.
Not sure what would happen if you dropped them to 4 and then took the headband off, they'd be a -2 INT. I'd think they'd drop into a coma and die.
Good, that's what I was hoping.
On a related note, once the ability increase becomes "permanent" i.e. after 24 hrs, are the additional Intelligence points subject to being damaged/drained? Or would they be treated differently, i.e. the character would always have a minimum intelligence equal to the modifier of the Headband?
They should be treated normally. IE: If you drop someone to 7 INT via INT damage, and they then lose their +6 headband before they can heal it, they basically become an animal, unable to think other than beastially. If you put it back on, they go back to 7 and can start acting like a sentient (but slow) individual.
Not sure what would happen if you dropped them to 4 and then took the headband off, they'd be a -2 INT. I'd think they'd drop into a coma and die.
Depends on the source of the penalty/damage/drain... For example if it's from touch of idiocy then they would stay at INT 1 at least.
Depends on the source of the penalty/damage/drain... For example if it's from touch of idiocy then they would stay at INT 1 at least.
True, but as a GM, I'd keep track of the 'virtual' INT so they don't get around that by taking off the headband and putting it back on to go from 1 to 7 after touch of idiocy.
True, but as a GM, I'd keep track of the 'virtual' INT so they don't get around that by taking off the headband and putting it back on to go from 1 to 7 after touch of idiocy.Depends on the source of the penalty/damage/drain... For example if it's from touch of idiocy then they would stay at INT 1 at least.
Fully agreed... my opinion is that you take the full penalty for the duration of the spell... that penalty simply can't drop you below a INT 1... if the INT goes back up from say a Fox's Cunning spell but you had 2 points of penalty left, you would only have an effective INT of 3 (1+4-2= 3). Extend to the headband with ease of course.
Now I would allow temporary bonuses (such as the spell above) to keep you from hitting the Negatives in the first place from INT damage or drain -- at least until the spell wore off, but this would be a temporary effect and of course wouldn't stack with itself.
Fully agreed... my opinion is that you take the full penalty for the duration of the spell... that penalty simply can't drop you below a INT 1... if the INT goes back up from say a Fox's Cunning spell but you had 2 points of penalty left, you would only have an effective INT of 3 (1+4-2= 3). Extend to the headband with ease of course.
Now I would allow temporary bonuses (such as the spell above) to keep you from hitting the Negatives in the first place from INT damage or drain -- at least until the spell wore off, but this would be a temporary effect and of course wouldn't stack with itself.
Seems reasonable to me.
Geeze! A +6 intelligence item with Linguistics as a skill would get you pretty much every language in the game, would it not? (You aren't likely to have it until high levels, so you start with a whole butt-load of languages, then add 3.)
Geeze! A +6 intelligence item with Linguist as a skill would get you a zillion languages, would it not?
Level+3 so depending on the level yeah.