Here's the situation:
Ever since I started playing d20 style games (about six years ago), I've played characters from level 1 to around 7. Never have any of my friends stuck to a campaign long enough for me to level up to 8 or higher, and it's rather frustrating. I like caster type classes, especially the wizard, but the problems I keep running into is my characters are lack luster.
At low levels, who does battle control? The Grappling Monk
Who does the most damage? Fighters and Barbarians
Who do they keep things away from? Healers and Casters
I've thought of character concepts that theoretically work, but when I use them, my group blows them out of the water by utilizing a strategy that essentially makes my character useless. For example, I once made a level 6 gish for a pf-converted ravenloft game out of the oracle class. One of my friends got a ranger, talked with the dm so he could sacrifice all of his starting gold for an enchanted quiver of unlimited +3 arrows. At that point, any attempt I made was pitiful because my other friends bought him a basic mighty composite longbow, and his damage output skyrocketed.
So, here's what I'm asking:
What goes through your guys' heads during character creation? What process do you all utilize to make a functioning character from level 1 to level 20, and how do you make it so that that character contributes a lot to the group through its specialty? Do you capitalize on the flaws of Pathfinder, or is there an actual thought process you guys go through in order to make characters that are both fun and fulfilling?
The way my DM designs his games is based on random story generated monstrosities. For example, one week, we'll fight a horde of orcs, the next week, we'll fight a dark one corrupted magma dragon whose drawing energy off of a suppressed phoenix egg.
When it comes to my friends building their own characters (the following is an example), they kind of mash some ideas together and decide, this quick drawing two-handed fighter who's feats are spent on two-weapon fighting is going to charge into battle with 9 health because he thought it would be an interesting experiment to see how a fighter could do with an 8 for his constitution. This is all based off of the generated back story of their characters, by the way.
What ends up happening is, I play a caster to defend them all because they can't survive a single round without being buffed up at least once. Then, at the end of the battle, I get a potion or some robe that really does nothing for me except cast some random outside-of-combat-spell, while they get swords, armor, and everything in between to counter the disabilities they possess.
And to top it off, just as my caster characters get high enough level to do something besides battle control or buffer, the group starts a new campaign at level 1...let me rephrase the last series of questions from my first post.
How do you create a low level character that is so powerful that he/she does not need a BSF, Healer, God, or (Insert Random dude who multiclassed into everything because he wanted to do everything)?
You mentioned no God, but Paladin is the answer here I think if you want to be self-sufficient. You can swift action heal (with the Fey Foundling feat the healing goes a lot further too), have great saves at second level, and have a really badass offense due to Smite Evil (or from having a two-hander and Power Attack).
That aside, super low level casters can one shot encounters. Color Spray. Get the trais Magical Lineage and Wayang Spell Hunter (aka Metamagic Master) with Persistent Spell. GG was close. Take a single level in Dual Cursed Oracle and pick the Heavens Mystery for access to the both Misfortune and an increase to the HD affected by Color Spray.
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I agree on the Paladin... be a self healing, Fey Foundling, Tiefling with a greatsword and wreak Holy Havoc (tm)!
Building a wizard or sorcerer or any primary caster takes focus. Your character has the peotential to do almost anything, but if you want to do anything really well, you will have to build towards it. Feat and spell selection is essential. You can have versatility for utility, but you really want to focus to excel.
One of my friends got a ranger, talked with the dm so he could sacrifice all of his starting gold for an enchanted quiver of unlimited +3 arrows. At that point, any attempt I made was pitiful because my other friends bought him a basic mighty composite longbow, and his damage output skyrocketed.
That might be part of the problem...
One of my friends got a ranger, talked with the dm so he could sacrifice all of his starting gold for an enchanted quiver of unlimited +3 arrows. At that point, any attempt I made was pitiful because my other friends bought him a basic mighty composite longbow, and his damage output skyrocketed.That might be part of the problem...
I agree to that seems almost the DM is scared from caters. Our at least arcane caters. I think you should have a private chat with your DM, and ask him why your pcs never get anything aside useless potion (useless for combat at least), and ask him if he has some issues with arcane caters.
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Sounds like you are thinking ahead and about important in-game things and your friends are being very noob-like regarding those same considerations. The result is that you have to babysit and they really don't care about seeing anything beyond the tedious repetition of low levels because they, for some reason, care more about haphazardly tossing together thematic backstories with no real long-term commitment to the characters once their itch has been scratched. I know these types and their varients and it is annoying to deal with. You want a caster? Pick sorceror, summoner or any of the above mentioned options. Self sufficiency will come with proper build in gear and stats as well as spell selection and feats. Summoners have it very easy. Two characters, efficient spells, good hp, etc.
When I make characters, I consider who I am playing with, the campaign, etc. However, the first and absolute MOST important thing, period, is what level the game is expected to get to and what happens if several people die but no tpks.
That dictates every thought process I make. I find it difficult to play in a vacuums of unknowns and then make plans that are far ahead of where the game will go. Every feat, skill rank, class selection made, piece of gold spent, etc, all has direct value dependant on bow high level you can expect to reach. If you buy feats like mobility and dodge to get whirlwind att but will never be high enough level to get whirlwind attack, you are wasting feata and time. If you picked an odd amount of interest so that you could increase it at level 8 and grab a much needed skill, you have only hampered yourself when the game stops at level 6-7. So all my decisions are predicated on the nature of the game and what level we can reach. In society play the level cap is 11 with events letting you play to 12, I think. So I build accordingly, with knowledge that I have 11 levels to work with and 11th level character gold potential, etc.
I'm not surprised you're feeling underpowered.. You're playing arcane casters at their weakest levels in a repeating loop. I'd be really frustrated.
Honestly, the group may not even need a caster, particularly if there's a monk doing control. I'd create a melee character and step into the limelight for a while.
If casters are just straight up your thing, try a gnome sorcerer with a one level dip in oracle of heavens for awesome display. Pick up the lame curse and just ride a war trained pony/donkey everywhere. You'll have 40 foot movement speed (80 if the pony/donkey double moves) while still being able to color spray everything up to CR 9. It's perfect for a 1-7 adventure. Just be careful with your spell selection. The one trick pony nature of the build gets annoying as you're either trivializing encounters or completely useless. Assume you can't use color spray and pick your other spells accordingly.
A minor benefit to that build is you can cast cure light wounds, so if you get a wand of CLW you can be the after battle healer of your party.
You cant find a solution to this (within your group at least); they like to mess around at low levels with martials, you want to bend reality at high. GM desires might be important too, since you,re basically playing what amounts to an unintentional E7 game. Talk to your GM first, then consider the following options:
1) Convince them to play an all-caster party. Magus+Bard+Summoner+Sorcerer+Druid is a weird combo, but I'm up to level 10 with such a group (I'm the magus) and everybody is having fun. The GM is very experimental though, so he enjoys it too. Sometimes, people need to go outside their comfort zone. (Might require high diplomacy)
2) Join in their fun. Accept that you cant play what you would like most, and choose something for yourself that "works" at low levels. Everybody is there to have fun, and it cant always be you that takes the slack. Now it's their turn to be a buffer.
3) Accept that you cant change them; they have different expectations than you for the game, and find another group. Try app.roll20.com, it's a good online tabletop to play PnP, I've made great players there, and since I move around a lot, it's perfect since I dont have a reliable "table" to go to. There, find a group that fits your needs. My own might actually be looking for another player.
HOpe this can help. Took me a bit to find a group, but I'm having a blast now.
Edit: as for character creation, I'm basically just messing around. Find an idea I like, try to build something that makes sense/seems functional, and work with that. Havent played long enough to run into your problems. I've built dozens of characters, only played 4 (in Pathifnder anyway, and most in PFS)
Have you had this conversation with the rest of your group? It sounds like that's going to be an important step in making an -in-context char.
Your group isn't playing "wrong", just playing a different right than you are, which almost always makes somebody at the table unhappy. (Sorry to hear that it's you...) the best way to deal with this, though, is to get everyone's hopes and aspirations out on the table, so you can figure out what play is going to maximize the amount of fun had.
Maybe you're far enough on the minority end of that discussion that you can't find a way to fit in, but it sounds like you're looking for ways to have fun in the context of your current group, not jump ship entirely.
Oracles are not made to out damage rangers so the first thing is to find a class or combination of classes that fits your concept.
If you want to be a damage dealer then migrate towards a class that specializes in damage.
For your group I would also ask the GM what level he expects the game to go to. That way you don't build for feats that you will never get.
Most of the time the first thing that comes into my mind into character creation is its theme - backtory, what he represents, what I want him to do, what role I want him to play.
Unfortunately by your desription it seems your group is playing a hack'n'slash..well there are remedies for those as well. There was a topic around not long ago about broken builds..with a spellcaster capable of dealing what 5d6 on level 1? Some fun with feats and traits specialising in a single easy-to-get spell. Burns out fast as low level spells tend to have annoying tiny damage dice maximums, but there ya go.
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StDDrake, he pointed out the opposite when he describes the terrible level of optimization that his party members have and how he, the primary spellcaster, must at low level protect and support the party far more than should be expected. He made it clear that it was to the point that battles largely hinge on his ability to compensate for their complete lack of optimization and slightly excessive focus on character theme. His group makes funny, silly interesting and sometimes even useful moves (everyone chipping in to get one guy a nice bow early). But overall, moves such as a two handed fighter with high Dex, low con and two weapon fighting on 8-9 HP seems like they are begging for it. A Pfs pregen has more health than that and is better optimized, and those are stock characters who are not munchkinized. His group just sucks. :) (unless they are reading this, in which case um, ignore the last sentence. Hehe).
What about things to look out for in the midlevel ranges? 7-14.
What DR overcoming weapons should I get?, things that aren't obvious to the noob eye?
I'm a monk (don't bully me pls) but every campaign I've ever played has been on low levels (1-4), and this is the first time I'll be playing a lvl 7 char, so I'm not sure what to be careful of.
Help pls :c
Just a couple notes:
Most DR is DR/magic but lycanthropes require silver, some outsiders require cold iron and some outsiders require silver.
As long as your character has ki points left his unarmed strikes are considered magic at 4th level and are considered both cold iron and silver starting at 6th level.
At 10th they are considered lawful
That covers most of the DR you need to worry about (there is also DR/goo, DR/chaotic, DR/evil, DR/slashing, etc.) but the most improtant remaining one, IMO is DR/adamantine which many golems have (as a monk you won't get that until 16th level).
There may be a way to get your unarmed attacks considered adamantine, not sure off the top of my head. But, you might want to consider an adamantine weapon.
You can use your monk's flurry of blows with weapons that have the monk weapon quality. Get one made of adamantine and you are good to go. There may be one (brass knuckles, made of adamantine ha) that lets you do your unarmed damage, not sure.
Also, amulet of mighty fists might be useful as it can give bonuses to your unarmed strike with varied abilities.
One other thing to look at is that you might want to start spreading gold value in magic items out over as many items hat affect your AC as possible.
Rings of protection (cost bonus to AC squared x 2000) increase your AC. Belts that increase your dexterity (cost bons to dexterity squared x 1000 or equivalently bonus to AC squared times 4000.
So a +1 ring that increases your AC by 1 costs 2000 and a +2 (to dex) belt that increases your dex by 2 (and your AC by 1) costs 4000 giving you a total cost of 6000 for a +2 bonus to AC (not to mention bonus to initiative and dex skills, reflex saves) where a +2 ring (giving +2 to AC) costs 8000.
For 10000 gp you can get a +1 ring (2000), +2 belt (+2 dex, 4000), and +2 circlet (or whatever it is, +2 to wis) that will increase your AC by 3 as well as improving your initiative, dex skills, wis skills, and both reflex and will saves. A +3 ring of protection costs 18000.
For example, I once made a level 6 gish for a pf-converted ravenloft game out of the oracle class. One of my friends got a ranger, talked with the dm so he could sacrifice all of his starting gold for an enchanted quiver of unlimited +3 arrows.
50: +3 arrows costs 18,000g. The spell that is applied to a quiver to cause this effect is: Abundant Ammunition. 1 x 1 x 2 (minutes/level) x 2000 (continuous) = 4,000 (minimum). This is one of those spells I would GM to be way more expensive (similar to continuous mage armor).
Minimum price: 18,000g + 4,000g = 22,000g. With this minimum, it means this character has no food, no clothes, no armor, no weapon, nothing but this quiver.
This was a bad DM option as it clearly unbalances the game. L6 starts with 16,000g. This is an unfair advantage of at least 6,000g by this other player. Did you DM compensate you and other party members for this imbalance? No other player character can predict this level of bullshi... will be introduced to a game.
Have you ever played a siege mage (wizard archetype) and come into play with a heavy ballista attached to a wagon?
Ok, 2 things.
First and most improtantly, you need to have a discussion with your group. You sound very frustrated and unhappy with the group. They are basically playing a different game than what it sounds like you want. Your character build is not going to fix that situation.
I would guess that you are all fairly new to the game or fairly young. The behavior you mention I have usually seen in one of those 2 groups. Sometimes a group will change over time, sometimes not.
You also might try volunteering to be the GM for a while and run an AP. See if they can enjoy the type of game you wanted to play.
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Second, the question you actually asked, how do I build a character?
In a bad mood mapleswitch? It's weird to see you without your usually cheery avatar. I myself have turned into an old man recently.
As for the infinite quiver of +3 arrows, that is way too much for a low level character, yes. Though a +3 bow would have a the same effect. Would like to see a gunslinger with a tortoise animal companion where he sets up one of the larger firearms...
In a bad mood mapleswitch? It's weird to see you without your usually cheery avatar. I myself have turned into an old man recently.
As for the infinite quiver of +3 arrows, that is way too much for a low level character, yes. Though a +3 bow would have a the same effect. Would like to see a gunslinger with a tortoise animal companion where he sets up one of the larger firearms...
The infinite quiver of +3 arrows was compounded by the group pooling their resources and buying a strength pull longbow to help the player. If allowed to have a +3 longbow (but not a strength pull one) then the players couldn't just pay extra to turn it into a strength pull longbow which, in the op's own words: "At that point, any attempt I made was pitiful because my other friends bought him a basic mighty composite longbow, and his damage output skyrocketed."
Ok, 2 things.
First and most improtantly, you need to have a discussion with your group. You sound very frustrated and unhappy with the group. They are basically playing a different game than what it sounds like you want. Your character build is not going to fix that situation.
I would guess that you are all fairly new to the game or fairly young. The behavior you mention I have usually seen in one of those 2 groups. Sometimes a group will change over time, sometimes not.
You also might try volunteering to be the GM for a while and run an AP. See if they can enjoy the type of game you wanted to play.-----------------------------------------------------
Second, the question you actually asked, how do I build a character?
a) Often I start with “What does the group need that I am willing to try.” (Do not become a buff-bot or heal-bot unless YOU enjoy that role.) If we have a CMB monk and 2 heavy damage dealers, I might make a summoner that uses his eidolon for scouting and has some back-up arcane buffs and minor attacks. If we have a bunch of ranged guys, I might make an armored tank with a reach weapon to keep the pressure off them while they kill things.
b) I then make a rough build (including my plans for what to take at each level) and post it in this forum asking for advice. Be sure to include any relevant details about the campaign (23 point buy, max level 9, elves not allowed, no guns, lots of undead, ship travel, etc…).
c) As far as deciding if it is good enough, I compare it at various levels with a few CR+2 monsters. If I have a high damage dealing melee machine and I’m not in the ballpark of at least that good, he won’t work. If I make a domination caster, I check my save DC vs. the save modifiers. If they won’t fail the save most of the time, he isn’t good enough. If I make a trip master, I compare with the CMD’s. If I can’t trip them most of the time, he needs more work.
d) If I decide it isn’t good enough, I will go back to the thread above in b) and ask for help...
Yeah, we're young, but still college worthy. And the group has been playing for six years now, and hasn't changed much. It's not that we're inexperienced or anything. The group just prefers martial characters where my preference lies in casters. Besides my main wizard, there's only one mid level (no high levels) caster out of eleven+ people, and our current DM favors that player (slightly) over others.
Also, when we first started playing d20 games, the person who taught us trained us into starting every character from level 1 up so that we build personality through experience and gameplay, rather than building a level 12 and having a backstory. Our current DM has stepped away from that philosophy slightly, but not much for it to be game changing.
That's why I'm trying to make a functioning level 1 caster that can contribute enough to carry himself into the higher levels while still being valuable in some way.
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As far as the "how do I build a character?" bit, I already know that. Like I said, I've been playing dnd 3.0, 3.5, and pathfinder for six years now, and although I'm not the greatest, I know what I'm doing. The group I play with has the mentality of screw group composition and go for what the player themselves wants to play. Often times, since I'm the caster, I have to fill the support role to maintain survivability throughout the group. I'm tired of filling the support role, so, my goal is to figure out how to make a class meant for higher level gameplay function at lower levels, in a group where everyone just does their own thing.
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... Often times, since I'm the caster, I have to fill the support role to maintain survivability throughout the group. I'm tired of filling the support role, ...
This is a mistake. Do not be a crutch for them being stupid unless you really enjoy it.
... so, my goal is to figure out how to make a class meant for higher level gameplay function at lower levels, in a group where everyone just does their own thing.
Ok, I did not get this from your early posts where you were asking how we made our characters. That is what I was answering.
For this goal, the more 'gish' characters would probably be your best bet for arcane might and effective at low levels. A bard or magus is really pretty darn effective at most any level. The first couple levels are tough for say a barb/sorc/dragon disciple but really fun after that. But it sounds lke you might not go high enough level to really enjoy that one. Summoner or its archtypes can be made to work in almost any group.
Straight wizard or sorc are going to be tough to compete at low level unless you really concentrate on peaking a one trick pony. Personally, I hate those PC's, but some people love them.
Inquisitor, cleric, and oracle are very good if you are willing to be a divine caster.
I apologize for that. Sometimes, I let my frustration get in the way of proper communication, and that's something else I'm working on with the group.
In that case, I'll check out the Summoner and Inquisitor classes.
Again, I apologize for all of the confusion.
I think inquisitor is cool. I've been having fun with a magus, but inquisitor looks like a decent divine alternate.