For what it's worth, our new Council of Thieves game has 4 players, and three of them are Bards (and the other is a Monk). We'll see how it goes, but none of us are worried about being underpowered (though my rolled 9 Str and 7 Con are slightly worrisome).
Also, Arcane Strike is +3 at 10th level.
For what it's worth, our new Council of Thieves game has 4 players, and three of them are Bards (and the other is a Monk).
That is seriously the best party ever.
For what it's worth, our new Council of Thieves game has 4 players, and three of them are Bards (and the other is a Monk).That is seriously the best party ever.
...don't mention the war ;-)
Sorry, I meant don't mention the Nobel Peace Prize. I'm from Sweden and lot of people over here are upset. It's a swedish prize but from Norway. Today I'm glad I'm not to from Norway. Nothing wrong with Norway, but the Nobel Peace Prize is just strange. I don't dislike Obama, but this is just wrong. IMHO.
For what it's worth, our new Council of Thieves game has 4 players, and three of them are Bards (and the other is a Monk). We'll see how it goes, but none of us are worried about being underpowered (though my rolled 9 Str and 7 Con are slightly worrisome).
Also, Arcane Strike is +3 at 10th level.
cool. Is there a thread I can read to find out how it all goes :-)
For what it's worth, our new Council of Thieves game has 4 players, and three of them are Bards (and the other is a Monk). We'll see how it goes, but none of us are worried about being underpowered (though my rolled 9 Str and 7 Con are slightly worrisome).
You will have to update us from time to time about how this goes. Sounds like a lot of fun.
good
Majuba I hope you read this.
So, sorry I was a pester.
I sat down with the book - and the inspire courage/competence seems to be either one target or personal only until you hit Inspire Greatness.[...]
I thought you should know. From the Bard Preview thread.
[...] The bard is good at a lot of different things, but he is not the master of any of them. [...] Will he get nuked first.. probably not, unless the bad guys realize that everyone is getting +3 to hit and damage from the guy in the back [...]
My bold.
So do I. I play a NPC Bard. She is not the biggest hero in the whole party, but she is very useful :-)
Then she's doing it wrong.
Allezandro is a legend. Ask anyone who heard any ballads about that party. "Oh yeah, the guy is almost godlike! I've heard how he single-handedly obliterated a whole tribe of nasty ogres, while the rest of the party just tagged along and watched in awe. If you don't believe me, go into that tavern there! A minstrel named A. Mandrezi is singing about him all day!"
I play a bard too. He is awesomesauce with a side of awesome. Best fun I've had with a character in some time.
I still have a Virtuoso running since 2004 in a 3.5 game. Just hit 18th level. I like how I got him to be a front-line fighter, a skill-user, and an arcanist, and pretty good at all three.
So here's a question I'm kicking around for converting my Pathfinder Society Bard3 to Pathfinder rules:
I like the strong Will save and being able to cast my own Heroism. Well-Versed grants me effectively 7+Int skills, and shores up my 7 Wisdom with regard to Sense Motive, since I'll probably channel Perform(oratory) into Diplomacy and Sense Motive. I don't plan on taking more than 14 Cha, unless there's a way to use Cha to increase melee attack bonus that I don't know of. What would be a good multiclass combination? I've debated Paladin/Bard... other thoughts?
-Matt
A) You said the bard sucked
No I didn't.
B) You need to read the post, it was 14 for both because when comparing melee to melee it's not really fair to give the fighter 18 STR and the Bard 14 and say oh the fighter's better in melee. No he's not, he's just stronger. Last I checked the Bard gets the same point buy so strength is really not an issue.
? If you comparing melee STR is NOT an issue. Are you serious?
and +6 UMD is not very useful.
The fighter can do more damage PER HIT. Yes. This game focus a lot on combat.
and when needed turn into a dragon?
But I see your point. :- ) Not much differens between a level 1 fighter and 1 level 1 bard.
STR is not an issue class vs class because if a fighter can have 18 STR a bard can have 18 STR, not to mention bards qualify for DD to get an extra 4 unnamed STR. The reason I made a note that fighters do more damage PER HIT is because the bard can give himself an 80% miss chance and slaughter the same fighter. +6 UMD is about a 1/3 chance to activate a wand of any spell at level 1. I would say that's pretty awesome
Level 1 bard is just as good as level 1 fighter.
fighter gets 1 BAB + power attack, assume both have 14 str, both using longspear fighter has +2 attack 1d8 + 6 killing most enemies at that level in 1 hit.
Level bard takes arcane strike 0 BAB but has inspire courage, +3 attack, does 1d8 +5 MAGIC(overcomes most DR at this point) killing most enemies in one hit. Inspire courage and arcane strike also scale up with bard so no need for other feats.
Bards also have an awesome ability called UMD that let's them be the party cleric druid and wizard with the right tools.I don't think it really proves a point, also there are too many important stuff left out of the comparison, like: You did chose the Bard first level feat but the fighter got none, the fighter is using a simple weapon while he could be using something better like a Great Axe and the bard couldn't and that is just to ...
Unless you were just trying to inform and there was no point in it.
You're right the fighter can pick up a martial reach weapon and raise his ave damage by 1 or he can give up his reach and raise his ave dam by 2. Neither are going to compare to the ability to buff the whole group, Magic damage at level 1, cast spells in armor, 6 skill points per level, and use magic device. The defense rests your honor. Bards are awesome, just because you can't figure out how to make them work doesn't change that fact.
I play a bard too. He is awesomesauce with a side of awesome. Best fun I've had with a character in some time.I still have a Virtuoso running since 2004 in a 3.5 game. Just hit 18th level. I like how I got him to be a front-line fighter, a skill-user, and an arcanist, and pretty good at all three.
So here's a question I'm kicking around for converting my Pathfinder Society Bard3 to Pathfinder rules:
I like the strong Will save and being able to cast my own Heroism. Well-Versed grants me effectively 7+Int skills, and shores up my 7 Wisdom with regard to Sense Motive, since I'll probably channel Perform(oratory) into Diplomacy and Sense Motive. I don't plan on taking more than 14 Cha, unless there's a way to use Cha to increase melee attack bonus that I don't know of. What would be a good multiclass combination? I've debated Paladin/Bard... other thoughts?
-Matt
If you like archery elven/half-elven bards qualify for arcane archer at 8th level no multiclassing. This gives you martial weapons, which qualifies you for EK.
If you like Melee, the new dragon disciple would be nice with bard abilities. You qualify for that at 5
I don't plan on taking more than 14 Cha, unless there's a way to use Cha to increase melee attack bonus that I don't know of.
Snowflake Wardance does this, but it requires ranks in Perform: Dance and only works with slashing melee weapons. Also, it's a b#+** to convert to Pathfinder rules thanks to rounds-per-day since it's powered by bardic music uses.
It's from Frostburn if you want to look it up.
STR is not an issue class vs class because if a fighter can have 18 STR a bard can have 18 STR, not to mention bards qualify for DD to get an extra 4 unnamed STR. The reason I made a note that fighters do more damage PER HIT is because the bard can give himself an 80% miss chance and slaughter the same fighter. +6 UMD is about a 1/3 chance to activate a wand of any spell at level 1. I would say that's pretty awesome
Fighter is a str based class. The bard is a char based class. Sure str is an issue. The bard need at least 14 char a fighter can dump his char and just boost his str.
A figter can use great sword and other melee weapons such as the great axe a bard can't.Reach is not always good. You can't use a reach weapon to hit an adjacent foe.
You can't just look av class vs class without looking what stats they need. A cleric with wis 8 would be useless a Bard or Paladin can dump wis to 8 or even 7 and that won't make them useless.
Indeed, the fighter can dump his CHA to boost his STR. This is going to make him somewhat useless in social situations, however, and he's never going to intimidate anyone without the feat that grants a strength bonus to intimidate (which is still penalised by his low CHA). All this hypothetical fighter is going to be good at is clubbing heads, which is great for a dungeon crawl, but not so much for a game with plenty of social interaction.
More or less true. But the game is very much focused on combat. taking to a Balor won't do the job.
Alos I think there is a general misconception that you must max a skill and have a high attribute to go with it to be able to use a skill. That might be true when using disable device, but not true when using sense motive, diplomacy, climb, knowledge skills, etc.A bard is usually better at diplomacy but a fighter with char 8 and skill focus diplomacy might be good enough at it to.
STR is not an issue class vs class because if a fighter can have 18 STR a bard can have 18 STR, not to mention bards qualify for DD to get an extra 4 unnamed STR. The reason I made a note that fighters do more damage PER HIT is because the bard can give himself an 80% miss chance and slaughter the same fighter. +6 UMD is about a 1/3 chance to activate a wand of any spell at level 1. I would say that's pretty awesomeFighter is a str based class. The bard is a char based class. Sure str is an issue. The bard need at least 14 char a fighter can dump his char and just boost his str.
A figter can use great sword and other melee weapons such as the great axe a bard can't.
Reach is not always good. You can't use a reach weapon to hit an adjacent foe.
You can't just look av class vs class without looking what stats they need. A cleric with wis 8 would be useless a Bard or Paladin can dump wis to 8 or even 7 and that won't make them useless.
Is that it? A fighter can use a great sword? The bard's spells are charisma based, fortunately for melee bards everywhere, they don't tend to resist their own spells. a 13 CHA bard who never drops a point in it can end up with 24 CHA. that same bard can start with 18 STR, get a +6 item(or make it) Take DD levels another +4 STR drop +5 from leveling up, and +5 inherent bonus (he made that too) ending up at 38 STR before he turns into said dragon and eats fighter's head while mirror imaged and blinking. oh and by the way since he took arcane strike at first level all those natural attacks are magical, and since he can make his own stuff they're also flaming/freezing/shocking/and ghosttouch...no miss chance while blinking. Do you now understand why a bard can hold his own against a fighter and his great sword?
STR is not an issue class vs class because if a fighter can have 18 STR a bard can have 18 STR, not to mention bards qualify for DD to get an extra 4 unnamed STR. The reason I made a note that fighters do more damage PER HIT is because the bard can give himself an 80% miss chance and slaughter the same fighter. +6 UMD is about a 1/3 chance to activate a wand of any spell at level 1. I would say that's pretty awesomeFighter is a str based class. The bard is a char based class. Sure str is an issue. The bard need at least 14 char a fighter can dump his char and just boost his str.
A figter can use great sword and other melee weapons such as the great axe a bard can't.
Reach is not always good. You can't use a reach weapon to hit an adjacent foe.
You can't just look av class vs class without looking what stats they need. A cleric with wis 8 would be useless a Bard or Paladin can dump wis to 8 or even 7 and that won't make them useless.
Is that it? A fighter can use a great sword? The bard's spells are charisma based, fortunately for melee bards everywhere, they don't tend to resist their own spells. a 13 CHA bard who never drops a point in it can end up with 24 CHA. that same bard can start with 18 STR, get a +6 item(or make it) Take DD levels another +4 STR drop +5 from leveling up, and +5 inherent bonus (he made that too) ending up at 38 STR.
Are you playing a fighter or a bard?
Well the fighter will probably end up with str 46 and Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Armor Training +4, Weapon Training +4, and lot of combat feats.
Well the fighter will probably end up with str 46
How are you managing that?
Strength 18 base. +2 race, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement gives 36. Where's the other 10 coming from?
Well the fighter will probably end up with str 46How are you managing that?
Strength 18 base. +2 race, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement gives 36. Where's the other 10 coming from?
Bribing the GM.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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a) Inspire Courage don't stack with Inspire Greatness = Inspire Greatness useless.
b) lots of songs went poof. OK. I get it. Too many songs but why remove Song of Freedom
c) see invisiblity is a third level spell
a) This isn't a nerf, this is a bonus. It now stacks with Morale from other classes (like Cleric and Marshal etc.) So this is an awesome boost to the power of the Bard by allowing him to contribute without overlap from the Cleric.
b) The only nerf, and likely removed because switching to "rounds per day" would allow some ridiculous number of Break Enchantments per day. You can still cast Break Enchantment.
c) It has always been a 3rd level spell. No nerf.
Inspire Courage now stacks with Good Hope. That's a boost, it didn't stack in 3.5.
The bard is better simply because he is a caster. Ask Kirth he'll tell you (friendly teasing).
The fighter does have a final bonus with one weapon without weapon focus and specialization of +24 to hit, +4 to damage.
The bard has a final before spells, with inspire courage of +19 to hit +4 to damage.
Feats for the fighter give +4 to hit, + 4 to damage for a total of +28 to hit, and +8 to damage.
Spells and the feats for the bard give +4 to hit, and +7 damage plus an extra attack (minimum) putting the bard at +23 to hit, +11 to damage.
It's a resource thing, fighters have items and feats.
Bards have items and feats and abilities, and spells.
The bard has more resources.
Bards only suck if you make them suck... just like fighters, wizards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, paladins, monks, rogues, barbarians, and rangers.
If you play to the bard's (many) strengths then he absolutely rocks.
a) Inspire Courage don't stack with Inspire Greatness = Inspire Greatness useless.
b) lots of songs went poof. OK. I get it. Too many songs but why remove Song of Freedom
c) see invisiblity is a third level spella) This isn't a nerf, this is a bonus. It now stacks with Morale from other classes (like Cleric and Marshal etc.) So this is an awesome boost to the power of the Bard by allowing him to contribute without overlap from the Cleric.
b) The only nerf, and likely removed because switching to "rounds per day" would allow some ridiculous number of Break Enchantments per day. You can still cast Break Enchantment.
c) It has always been a 3rd level spell. No nerf.
If you read the whole thread you would have found this on page 2.
OK: The opening post was sloppy. So let me refrase it
Edit: Naming the thread "what the [h*ll]?" was not nice, but to late now.
OK. Here it is. the new opening post
The new bard is a bit strange and nerfed, why?
Nerfed: I am not talking about the rounds per day I like the rounds per day mechanics (but they are not perfect). What I'm talkingt about is:
a) The 2d10 HD only last for one round = useless.
b) The attack bonus is no big deal since Inspire Courage now also give competence bonus on attack AND on weapon damage..to the whole part.
c) bards can now perfom and cast spells during the same round so Inspire Courage + cure spells are more powerfull. At higher levels the bard can also start a Performance as a move or even a swift action.
d) Inspire Greatness still affect only one target at level 9. Inspire Courage affects the whole party. Inspire Greatness affects a maximum of four targets at 18th level (and party with a bard will probably be 5 persons: rogue, tank, healer, fireballer, bard).
e) at level 11 Inspire Courage will give +3 (attack, damage, saves vs fear + charm) thus maxing the attack bonus from Inspire Greatness redundant
f) Inspire Greatness gives +1 to fortitude saves, this is no big deal. Just because an ability gives a bonus it doesn't make it great. It could just as well give +1 to charisma skill checks or give the target green hair or pink shoes.
Now to the strange part:
So Why? Why does the bard, who is all about Divination and Enchantment (and some Illusion) get See Invisibility as a third level spell? Why?
The argument "it's a third level bard spell in the 3.5 SRD so it must be a third level spell now" is false logic. The Paizo bard and the 3.x bard are not the same.
The bard get many spells on lower spell levels or at equal spell levels compared to other casters with the same spells. Why Bards should get See Invisibility on a higher spell level don't make much sence.
The 3.0 Bard had See Invisibility as a 2 level spell.
And you might want to read this
Let me add some thoughts from this thread
It’s all about IG (Inspire greatness) and IG vs. IC (Inspire Courage)
I asked the designers this (and didn’t get an reply), Inspire greatness:
In order for you to understand why I’m asking all this here are some quotes from Dissinger and some reflections from me.
Dissinger already gave me this answer on how IG works:
“This means for spells that rely on how many hit dice you have (like sleep, daze, blasphemy ect.) you count as having two more hit dice. Its pretty straight forward.”
Dissinger aslo said: "it can prevent certain hit dice dependent effects like sleep or daze. However it must be done ahead of time".
I know all this. This is not new to me but my point is:
- At level 9 most spells with hit dice dependent effects are not a problem.
- That leaves Blasphemy (or holy word, etc)
IG can't be activated as an Immediate Action. This mean that if the bard wants to mitigate the effect of Blasphemy "it must be done ahead of time." This mean the bard must win the initiative (or know the party will meet a foe that might use Blasphemy and the bard must also know when and where the party will meet that foe). Even if the bard wins the initiative he must know that there is a risk the foe is going to cast Blasphemy. Otherwise the bard must use IG in every encounter, "just in case".
The bonus HD doesn't linger so the bard has to keep on using IG during the entire encounter “just in case” the foe will use it. That is, the bard must use IG all the time "just in case". Even if the bard is using IG it only affect 1 ally.
Also, unless the bard knows the exact caster level of the foe he cant be sure the bonus HD will matter. If the Inspired ally HD is caster level -5 or caster level -3 doesn't matter.
The usefulness of IG seems to be just theoretical.
Let's take a look at party I'm playing in.
Tank, Rogue, Cleric, Bard, Ranger. At level 11 the bard can use IC, giving the whole part +3 to attack, +3 weapon damage and +3 moral bonus to bonus charm and fear effects.
Or he can use IG, giving one ally +2 to attack and +2HD and +1 to fort.
Why would the bard use IG? The hit points is no big deal and IC is far better.
Is it the hit point? If someone needs healing the cleric can heal or the bard can use IC and heal. At 13th level the bard can even cast Mass Cure Light Wounds or the bard can start IC as a swift action walk to a ally in need of healing and cast CMW or CSW.
IG – what’s the point. If +2HD meant +2 BAB or +2 caster level then it would be great. But +2HD+con temporary hit point? Please. The “healing” aspect might be nice at level 9 but it sure isn’t great. And it sure isn’t great if you take in to consideration that at level 11 IC will give the whole party +3 to attack and +3 to weapon damage. Using IC means your foe will go down fast and thus it will do less damage. A dead foe doesn’t do damage.
IG, why does it suck? You want my answer? Paizo messed up.
In 3.x IG had it’s place. It Lingered and it stacked with IC. So it could be combined with IC. As Jason said himself “5 rounds... that is roughly where we were to be the critical length of the combat.” So start it, change you tune and you have both IC and IG working during the same combat. And since it lingered the bard could cast spells. In 3.x you could even perform and fight.
Picking the Lingering Song feat would extend duration of most bardic music to 1 minute after an inspired ally stops hearing you play. You could start singing even before you entered the room with the big evil boss.
Same goes for inspire heroics and you could combine it with the other songs.
Paizo messed up.
All this said I like the rounds per day concept but it is badly designed. The fact that at level 7 a bard never runs out of rounds and that songs can’t be combined and ....IG is more or less pointless.
Have we used IG in our game? Yes. Once when we had a trap that always gave hit point damage. We saved some charges from our wand of CLW. That’s it.
And you might want to read this too
I have edited this some.
Reflection on the problems with Song of Freedom and Inspire Greatness.
These problems derive from the problems of 3.x mechanics vs. the final mechanics.
Inspire Greatness:
First suggestion. Boost it or/and let it linger. Or boost it and let the 2d10+con linger or let the bard heal 2d10+con. Healing 2d10+con is good but not ûber. Let the bonus HD affect BAB or/and caster level and base save.
...and make it affect more targets.
Second suggestion. Remove Inspire Greatness and replace it with song of freedom.
Third suggestion: Boost it or/and let it linger and/or let the Bard activated it as an Immediate Action
Song of Freedom:
Song of Freedom would have to cost 10 rounds. It would be too expensive so we removed it.
One Performance in the beta equal to about 5 Performances in the final if I get it right. That's why Soothing Performance cost 4 rounds. If a Paladin can "expend two uses of her smite evil ability to grant the ability to smite evil to all allies within 10 feet, using her bonuses." Why can't a bard during 1 minute expend 4 uses of her Performance to use Song of Freedom? Or why not just give the bard this ability as a spell-like ability to be use xxx times per day?
Here is my suggestion on a fix:
A bard of 9th level or higher can use his performance
to create an effect equivalent to the break enchantment spell
(caster level equals the character’s bard level). Using this
ability requires 1 minute of uninterrupted concentration
and music, and it functions on a single target within 30
feet. A bard can’t use song of freedom on himself.
Using this ability doesn’t count against a bard’s daily
limit on bardic performances.
Finaly to all who post in this thread.
This is not a "the bard suck thread." nor is it a Bard vs. fighter thread.
It's a thread about
...but I like the rounds per day mechanics.
Inspire Courage now stacks with Good Hope. That's a boost, it didn't stack in 3.5.
The bard is better simply because he is a caster. Ask Kirth he'll tell you (friendly teasing).
The fighter does have a final bonus with one weapon without weapon focus and specialization of +24 to hit, +4 to damage.
The bard has a final before spells, with inspire courage of +19 to hit +4 to damage.
....
They all suck.
You know what is best? A fighter working together with a bard. And maybe one or more of the following: Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, Monk, Cleric, Druid, Rogue, Wizard and Sorcerer.
STR is not an issue class vs class because if a fighter can have 18 STR a bard can have 18 STR, not to mention bards qualify for DD to get an extra 4 unnamed STR. The reason I made a note that fighters do more damage PER HIT is because the bard can give himself an 80% miss chance and slaughter the same fighter. +6 UMD is about a 1/3 chance to activate a wand of any spell at level 1. I would say that's pretty awesomeFighter is a str based class. The bard is a char based class. Sure str is an issue. The bard need at least 14 char a fighter can dump his char and just boost his str.
A figter can use great sword and other melee weapons such as the great axe a bard can't.
Reach is not always good. You can't use a reach weapon to hit an adjacent foe.
You can't just look av class vs class without looking what stats they need. A cleric with wis 8 would be useless a Bard or Paladin can dump wis to 8 or even 7 and that won't make them useless.
Is that it? A fighter can use a great sword? The bard's spells are charisma based, fortunately for melee bards everywhere, they don't tend to resist their own spells. a 13 CHA bard who never drops a point in it can end up with 24 CHA. that same bard can start with 18 STR, get a +6 item(or make it) Take DD levels another +4 STR drop +5 from leveling up, and +5 inherent bonus (he made that too) ending up at 38 STR.
Are you playing a fighter or a bard?
Well the fighter will probably end up with str 46 and Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Armor Training +4, Weapon Training +4, and lot of combat feats.
How is the fighter getting 46 str. +5 level +6 item +6 manual that's +17, 46-17 = 29. I'm guessing you're fighter isn't starting with 29 str at level 1. Of course if he wanted more str, the fighter could take bard levels and qualify himself for DD to get +str inherent and form of the dragon.. then he too could be a melee beast like the bard.
Inspire Courage now stacks with Good Hope. That's a boost, it didn't stack in 3.5.
The bard is better simply because he is a caster. Ask Kirth he'll tell you (friendly teasing).
The fighter does have a final bonus with one weapon without weapon focus and specialization of +24 to hit, +4 to damage.
The bard has a final before spells, with inspire courage of +19 to hit +4 to damage.
....
They all suck.
You know what is best? A fighter working together with a bard. And maybe one or more of the following: Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, Monk, Cleric, Druid, Rogue, Wizard and Sorcerer.
Actually KaeYoss I thought our 3.5 group was going to get TPK'd in second darkness, so I put together an all bard group just in case that was a Mariachi (sp?) band 2 bard/dragon disciples, 2 bard/arcane archers, one straight bard illusionist, and one straight bard enchanter, and we were totally going to play it. Except that only one person died. We wanted to get the dragon disciples adamantine guitars to use as great clubs.
I was not comparing then, I was just saying there where some important things left out of your comparison.You're right the fighter can pick up a martial reach weapon and raise his ave damage by 1 or he can give up his reach and raise his ave dam by 2. Neither are going to compare to the ability to buff the whole group, Magic damage at level 1, cast spells in armor, 6 skill points per level, and use magic device. The defense rests your honor. Bards are awesome, just because you can't figure out how to make them work doesn't change that fact.I don't think it really proves a point, also there are too many important stuff left out of the comparison, like: You did chose the Bard first level feat but the fighter got none, the fighter is using a simple weapon while he could be using something better like a Great Axe and the bard couldn't and that is just to ...
Level 1 bard is just as good as level 1 fighter.
fighter gets 1 BAB + power attack, assume both have 14 str, both using longspear fighter has +2 attack 1d8 + 6 killing most enemies at that level in 1 hit.
Level bard takes arcane strike 0 BAB;;.
I realize that and I'm not trying to be flippant about your answer, I just think that a weapon doing an ave of 1-2 more isn't really significant past level 3-4, especially when it's at the expense of full spellcasting.
A longspear in the hands of a bard can do much more +damage than rolling an 8 on the dice will ever achieve or even 12 in the case of some martial weapons.