Chief Technical Officer
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So, folks who paid for express shipping on the RPG may or may not get their book any earlier than the release date, but they also shouldn't get their book *later* than the release date, and that's not true of other shipping methods.Even those for orders still showing "pending"? is USPS Priority considered express?
Priority is not express, and the USPS does not guarantee shipping times for that service.
I didn't receive a "your order will ship by" email.
Those go out when we begin the fulfillment process for your order (which is not the same as when the order ships). We have an automated queue and a manual queue; which queue you're in is determined by the contents and shipping method of your package. Folks in the automated queue would have received that e-mail when they entered the queue a week ago; folks in the manual queue will get the e-mail when the warehouse actually prepares your order for pickup.
Based on the USPS estimate for Priority Mail to your address, your order should ship today.
Thanks Vic!
Stuff that makes sense...
Shouldn't you be on a plane to Indy?
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Well, I guess it's perfectly understandable that with everything that's gone on in preparation for August 13th, that no one at Paizo would make the connection between the shipping policy and how it would affect the more expensive shipping options, especially since so few people actually use those options.
I vented, I was heard, and I'm over it. Thanks for listening.
My copy won't arrive until Friday, the day after the release. But I look at it this way: the book is SOLD OUT and I have a copy coming.
Be happy that you have a one coming now and not in several months.
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Alright people, lets not force a lock on the thread. Everything is resolved, we can go discuss the finer points of customer service somewhere else.Don't tell me not to b&~@% and complain! I demand the right to flame this and any other thread! I'm gonna flag you for that.
Just get on the plane to indy yoda, then all conplaining is moot... hope you guys avoid the storms flying in! its 8:20, 80, and sunny
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Those go out when we begin the fulfillment process for your order (which is not the same as when the order ships). We have an automated queue and a manual queue; which queue you're in is determined by the contents and shipping method of your package. Folks in the automated queue would have received that e-mail when they entered the queue a week ago; folks in the manual queue will get the e-mail when the warehouse actually prepares your order for pickup.Based on the USPS estimate for Priority Mail to your address, your order should ship today.
Thanks for the explanation, looking forward to "the big box of loot"
You're right—it is reasonable to expect that people who are paying for faster shipping are going to get books faster, and we did not do a good job communicating that this wasn't necessarily the case in this circumstance. And by "we," I mean "me."
It's admirable for you to make take this viewpoint, but I'd like to throw an argument in another direction. The release date for this product is the 13th. That's the only figure that matters.
2-day shipping means the 13th +/- 1d2 days. USPS means the 13th +/- 1d8 days. Buying retail might equate to the 13th +/- 1d4 days.
Nobody should complain that some USPS purchasers get their product first. The only other way Paizo could have handled this would have been to ship 2-day orders first, in which case everyone who ordered that way would have the product many days in advance - contrary to the intention of a release date. Or, everything ships on the 11th in which case the majority of customers (those on USPS) get to wait a week or more, again defeating the point of a release date.
Paizo has done an admirable job of trying to ensure most customers get the product on or very close to the date it was promised. I support the decisions made, Vic.
Now... we'll see when my (Canadian) retailer get their hands on a copy. They don't know when it'll arrive.
You're right—it is reasonable to expect that people who are paying for faster shipping are going to get books faster, and we did not do a good job communicating that this wasn't necessarily the case in this circumstance. And by "we," I mean "me."It's admirable for you to make take this viewpoint, but I'd like to throw an argument in another direction. The release date for this product is the 13th. That's the only figure that matters.
2-day shipping means the 13th +/- 1d2 days. USPS means the 13th +/- 1d8 days. Buying retail might equate to the 13th +/- 1d4 days.
Nobody should complain that some USPS purchasers get their product first. The only other way Paizo could have handled this would have been to ship 2-day orders first, in which case everyone who ordered that way would have the product many days in advance - contrary to the intention of a release date. Or, everything ships on the 11th in which case the majority of customers (those on USPS) get to wait a week or more, again defeating the point of a release date.
Paizo has done an admirable job of trying to ensure most customers get the product on or very close to the date it was promised. I support the decisions made, Vic.
Now... we'll see when my (Canadian) retailer get their hands on a copy. They don't know when it'll arrive.
This doesn't answer, what additional advantage does an overnight deliver have for a two-day delivery? If more is charged, shouldn't there be a reason for that besides just having money to burn?
Also is this common practice in the book industry when a release is schedule? For example, when a Harry Potter book was released, did online suppliers make sure that it was delivered on the date of release?
Also is this common practice in the book industry when a release is schedule? For example, when a Harry Potter book was released, did online suppliers make sure that it was delivered on the date of release?
Yes. Amazon, at least, paid for Saturday delivery for Harry Potter books at no extra cost so that those who ordered before the cut-off got them on street date.
Also is this common practice in the book industry when a release is schedule? For example, when a Harry Potter book was released, did online suppliers make sure that it was delivered on the date of release?Yes. Amazon, at least, paid for Saturday delivery for Harry Potter books at no extra cost so that those who ordered before the cut-off got them on street date.
Paizo didn't pay for anything, though, so it's not the same situation. Not that they could have.
Paizo didn't pay for anything, though, so it's not the same situation. Not that they could have.Also is this common practice in the book industry when a release is schedule? For example, when a Harry Potter book was released, did online suppliers make sure that it was delivered on the date of release?Yes. Amazon, at least, paid for Saturday delivery for Harry Potter books at no extra cost so that those who ordered before the cut-off got them on street date.
I'm not sure if that is totally accurate. I think they said that if the shipping for pre-orders (not subscriptions) increased from the quoted shipping in the pre-order, they absorbed that increased cost.
This doesn't answer, what additional advantage does an overnight deliver have for a two-day delivery? If more is charged, shouldn't there be a reason for that besides just having money to burn?
Why does there necessarily exist such a hypothetical additional advantage? Keep in mind that the extra money someone pays in higher shipping class is paid to the shipping company ultimately, no Paizo. You're explicitly not paying for your book to get special treatment from them. You're purchasing a shipping class from a shipper that has exactly the guarantees associated with it that the shipper defines. Two-day shipping for a product with a delivery date of the 13th, you should reasonably expect Paizo to ship the product on the 11th. With 5-to-10 day shipping, you should reasonably expect Paizo to ship that product perhaps as early as the 3rd.
Again, I'm just putting my personal viewpoint out. Friendly discussion and all. I don't think paying extra for shipping should be associated with any other perks. It doesn't say "early shipping". If Paizo was selling that, then there'd be a valid argument.
I guess in the end I'm suggesting we turn the scenario around. What if Paizo shipped all the 2-day shipments first, starting on... oh... the 11th. Say they ship the USPS batch on the 12th. So... what... because I don't fork out extra for shipping my product shows up maybe two weeks after the much-hyped release date? Bogus. The 13th is the target date, plain and simple.
Why does there necessarily exist such a hypothetical additional advantage? Keep in mind that the extra money someone pays in higher shipping class is paid to the shipping company ultimately, no Paizo.
So basically wasting $35 (the cost of another PFRPG on Amazon) is totally fine (in the case of over-night vs 2-day). Gee, wouldn't it be in both the customer's and Paizo's interest to keep as much money in the hands of the customer and not be wasted on shipping when no advantage is there. With that extra money, the customer could then use it on actual Paizo game products. Instead of it going to a shipping company.
So basically wasting $35 (the cost of another PFRPG on Amazon) is totally fine (in the case of over-night vs 2-day). Gee, wouldn't it be in both the customer's and Paizo's interest to keep as much money in the hands of the customer and not be wasted on shipping when no advantage is there. With that extra money, the customer could then use it on actual Paizo game products. Instead of it going to a shipping company.
We're arguing two different things. If you define paying extra to purchase a guaranteed reduction in transit time as a waste, so be it. Don't click on shipping charges that quote transit time as their sole attribute.
While yes, Vic and the gang could have anticipated this misunderstanding and yes that would have been nice I just object to the criticism. Two-day shipping says just that; shipping takes two days. It doesn't say "your product arrives on such-and-such a date" or "you get your product before anyone else" or "you won a free pony". It states transit time. That's all. Anyone who got burned on this made an assumption. Bigger numbers aren't always better, and paying more for a thing doesn't always guarantee you made a good choice.
I've pretty much said all I can to express that not everyone thinks Paizo did wrong here, and why. I'm comfortable with opposing viewpoints, I just felt it important to express mine.
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Why does there necessarily exist such a hypothetical additional advantage? Keep in mind that the extra money someone pays in higher shipping class is paid to the shipping company ultimately, no Paizo.So basically wasting $35 (the cost of another PFRPG on Amazon) is totally fine (in the case of over-night vs 2-day). Gee, wouldn't it be in both the customer's and Paizo's interest to keep as much money in the hands of the customer and not be wasted on shipping when no advantage is there. With that extra money, the customer could then use it on actual Paizo game products. Instead of it going to a shipping company.
areyou saying that they should take away that possibility of shipping?
its the buyers' choice to decide how they want... if they want it to be as little time "in the air" as they can... then its a personal choice, nothing else. you can't blame Paizo for personal choices, whichever this are.
Well, looking at my own package, for which I was billed $9.25 s/h, I checked the mailing label and find it was sent via UPS Mail Innovations, which is a joint UPS/USPS project. And while I couldn't track my package beforehand, I can do it retroactively via the mailing label and the UPS website. Here's the relevant info:
Sequence Number: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Shipment Control Number: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Zip Code: 95120
Weight (lbs.): 4.9268
Date Description Location
Aug 6 2009 Mail Retrieved From Shipper
Aug 6 2009 Received at UPS Mail Innovations Origin RPF Auburn, WA
Aug 6 2009 Processed at UPS Mail Innovations Origin RPF Auburn, WA
Aug 7 2009 Transferred to UPS Mail Innovations Destination RPF Union City, CA
Aug 8 2009 Received at UPS Mail Innovations Destination RPF Union City, CA
Aug 8 2009 Manifested (Postage Paid)
Aug 8 2009 Entered USPS Facility - BMC SAN FRAN, CA
Your mail piece has been transferred from UPS Mail Innovations to the United States Postal Service.
The US Postal service delivered it on Monday, August 10th, in San Jose.
That's remarkably good time all things told. Possibly a day could have been shaved off if I lived in Union City or San Francisco. But San Jose is a straight shot down from SF, and a major city, so easy enough to deliver quickly.
I'm pretty certain UPS and the USPS quote longer time rates for customers living farther from the major transport hubs, congestion at those hubs, weather delaying mail planes, etc. etc. And that's also probably why a majority of those ordering their books have not received them yet but likely will tomorrow.
Short of customers purposefully restraining their glee and not opening their packages before the official launch date, I see no way around this scenario. Though the shipping options can be more clearly explained.
We're arguing two different things. If you define paying extra to purchase a guaranteed reduction in transit time as a waste, so be it. Don't click on shipping charges that quote transit time as their sole attribute.
I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone cares about the transit time when making in an order. I think people are more concerned about the time it takes from when the order is made, until it arrives. People wanting it to arrive faster usually choose the more expensive shipping option, not because the transit time is less, but the delivery time is earlier.
I mean if you went and order something on line and were told that if you pick the most expensive shipping option, that your order will be delayed from shipping for an extra week versus picking the cheapest method. But the actual transit time will be less, who would do that? Someone that is terrified about the package being in the hands of the shipping company? They would rather have it sit in a warehouse for an extra week, just so the evil shipping company can only touch it for 2 days? I think the transition time argument is a bit silly.
are you saying that they should take away that possibility of shipping?
Actually for a kind of order like this where they want all books to arrive at essentially the same time, only have one possible way to order it might actually make sense. Perhaps there could be more expensive options if someone wanted insurance and tracking, as those things do have value and should be more expensive.
its the buyers' choice to decide how they want... if they want it to be as little time "in the air" as they can... then its a personal choice, nothing else. you can't blame Paizo for personal choices, whichever this are.
Please keep my little old book safe in the warehouse as long as possible so that the mean old shipping company can't touch it. You know what would have made that even better, if they delayed shipping out the over-night orders for another week on top of it, that way the over-night little books could be kept safe longer and then they only would have to be touch by the creepy shipping company for a few hours.
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Please keep my little old book safe in the warehouse as long as possible so that the mean old shipping company can't touch it. You know what would have made that even better, if they delayed shipping out the over-night orders for another week on top of it, that way the over-night little books could be kept safe longer and then they only would have to be touch by the creepy shipping company for a few hours.
lol you would actually believe that if you have lost books in the shipping process :P
I have
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In regard to Anguish's remarks, my package may have been shipped through UPS, but I was not a customer of UPS. I was a customer of Paizo.
Now, I don't object to Paizo choosing a shipping method that gets the books in the hands of as many customers as possible by the release date. I think that's admirable.
I do object (and let's face it, I've made my objection known and moved on) to Paizo not informing me directly of something that would affect my order. That's all. I mention this because if it's not mentioned, it may come up during future releases with other customers.
When a vendor quotes shipping time, I believe that it is reasonable for a customer to infer that faster shipment means the items are likely to arrive sooner. I don't think that it is obvious that a faster (and more costly) shipping method will be offset by the vendor holding on to your package longer. As to not offering some of these faster shipping methods, I think that would be a great idea. Vic already mentioned that almost nobody selects these faster shipping methods. That being the case, why offer something that you know is only going to waste the customers money. I would much rather give my $30 to Paizo in the form of more orders, than give it to a shipping company.
Of course, in defense of UPS (and, really, I never expected I would be saying those words), it wasn't the shipping company that slowed receipt of the item. It was Paizo (however well-intentioned their reasoning).
I think it's understandable that with everything that's going on at Paizo these past few weeks, that someone wouldn't make the connection that $64 shipping equals $32 shipping (when you hold the book in a warehouse for an extra day), and it equals $12 shipping (if this book gets shipped out even 2 or 3 days earlier). It's understandable that someone at the company might not realize that some (admittedly few) customers were getting hosed into paying good money to no benefit.
I want Paizo to succeed as much as you do. It sounds as though you are saying that a customer shouldn't expect Paizo to look out for his or her interests. As a customer, and someone who wants Paizo to succeed as a business, I disagree with you.
It should be noted that I did have a previous e-mail exchange with Alison in Customer Service (back in June) where I explicitly stated that the only reason I wanted 2nd Day Air on one of my copies is that I wanted the book sooner. She just didn't make the connection at the time that I was paying for something that I was never going to get. Frankly, with all of the e-mails she has to deal with, I can certainly understand missing that. No big deal, but clearly I was a customer who believed I was paying a premium for faster service. No faster service, and I would have preferred not to pay that premium.
I'm no longer upset about what happened, or what might have happened to prevent what happened. Every now and again, I go off like a cork, and then I settle down again soon enough.
I don't mean to put words in anyone's mouth, but the gist of what you said sounds like, "Paizo, you're great just the way you are. Don't ever change."
What I'd like to say to Paizo is, "Paizo, you're a great company, and you make great products. Take this situation, and use it to become an even greater company in the future".
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Chief Technical Officer
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I had Gary do some checking, and out of thousands of orders, exactly three people ordered the Core Rulebook with two-day shipping, and nobody paid for overnight shipping. All three of the two-day packages were shipped exactly on time, on August 11.
So I'll reiterate—while it's certainly possible that these three people who paid extra for 2-day shipping thought they would get it earlier than everyone else, and they did *not* get that, they *did* at least get something that no other order got: guaranteed delivery on the release date.
I'm not sure if that is totally accurate. I think they said that if the shipping for pre-orders (not subscriptions) increased from the quoted shipping in the pre-order, they absorbed that increased cost.
You are right!
I could have gotten the book shipped for something like 5$ (but that was just too rude, they'd have made a loss on that book).
Two-day shipping says just that; shipping takes two days. It doesn't say "your product arrives on such-and-such a date" or "you get your product before anyone else" or "you won a free pony".
It doesn't say "the postal worker will not throw the package through your window if you're not home" and I still expect he won't do that.
It was an assumption, yes, but it was the reasonable solution: Virtually all the time, faster shipping means getting stuff earlier. It is even true for every paizo shipment except this one.
I've pretty much said all I can to express that not everyone thinks Paizo did wrong here, and why.
Paizo themselves think that they did wrong. They know now and will do the right thing should something like that ever be repeated.
areyou saying that they should take away that possibility of shipping?its the buyers' choice to decide how they want... if they want it to be as little time "in the air" as they can... then its a personal choice, nothing else. you can't blame Paizo for personal choices, whichever this are.
In that instance, they probably should have. Or at least told customers that unlike every other order ever done on Piazo, this time more expensive and "faster" shipping does not mean getting it earler (and might mean getting it later than those who got a cheaper shipping method).
And you still don't seem to get it: This clearly isn't about "least possible time spend on transit". It's about "getting it as early as possible". Faster shipping does that. It gets stuff there faster. Except in this case it didn't.
And that's the whole point.
I still don't get what this is about: You don't have to defend Paizo. This is not a call for blood. No one is accusing Paizo of being the devil. All we say is that this could have been handled better. Paizo agrees. It would all be over if you didn't insist on telling off those who lost money on this, adding insult to injury.
What is wrong with people here?
I would much rather give my $30 to Paizo in the form of more orders, than give it to a shipping company.
And that's the crux of it!
Heymitch isn't angry at Paizo. He (she? The name could be anything, the avatar is female but that doesn't always mean anything) doesn't want to press charges or anything.
But had he been informed about this, he would have taken the 30 bucks and bought more Paizo stuff.
I guess like most people, he has a limited gaming budget.
So yes, Heymitch lost something on it - more Paizo stuff - but Paizo lost as well: profit.
Even if it was only three people, that means something between 60 and 90 bucks for Paizo.
I find it amazing that so many people here seem to have trouble understanding what Heymitch and KaeYoss' argument is. I get what they are saying and I think that they have a point. Vic from Paizo gets what the issue is and has admitted that they could have done things better.
I was going to resist from posting but just thought I would show my support for Heymitch. I think it is reasonable to think when ordering that (unless you are explicitly told otherwise - not just a mention in a newsletter) if you choose a faster (and more expensive) shipping option then you will receive that item sooner than if you chose a cheaper and slower option.
I certainly don't think many people would pay for the more expensive 2-day option just so they can get a tracking benefit. They do it so they can get their item sooner than if they chose a slower option. In this particular case choosing the faster, more expensive option did not actually mean you would get your item sooner. Given that, I think that Paizo should have e-mailed those people and explained to them exactly what the benefit of their more expensive shipping was (tracking, guaranteed delivery by date X, rather than a guaranteed delivery of between Y and Z) and given them the option of switching to another shipping option. Even more so since there were only 3 people that chose this option.
Ultimately though this didn't happened. Paizo have apologised for it and promised to do better next time. The person affected has accepted that apology and says that they have moved on. I think that's the best outcome we can get from this situation really.
Olaf the Stout
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I had Gary do some checking, and out of thousands of orders, exactly three people ordered the Core Rulebook with two-day shipping, and nobody paid for overnight shipping. All three of the two-day packages were shipped exactly on time, on August 11.
How many people opted for USPS Priority shipping? Assuming it only takes running an ad hoc SQL statement to look that up.
I was going to resist from posting...Hey, Snout, I didn't know you also posted over here. How's it going?
He doesn't. A mere 400-something posts do not count ;-P
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Chief Technical Officer
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How many people opted for USPS Priority shipping? Assuming it only takes running an ad hoc SQL statement to look that up.
A very high percentage went Priority, but due to certain weight and content restrictions on other classes, Priority was often the cheapest method available, and in many cases, the *only* method available.
I was going to resist from posting...Hey, Snout, I didn't know you also posted over here. How's it going?
I didn't think I had a big enough profile on EN World for people to take any notice of me! Unless you have me mistaken with someone else?
I'm an occasional poster here on the Paizo boards, but I lurk most of the time. I do most of my posting on the Shackled City board since that's what I'm running my group through at the moment.
Olaf the Stout
He doesn't. A mere 400-something posts do not count ;-PI was going to resist from posting...Hey, Snout, I didn't know you also posted over here. How's it going?
Yeah, I need to start posting in some of the off-topic threads here to get my post count up! I'm not even halfway to second level yet! :-D
Olaf the Stout
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Well, as a last tidbit for everyone, I still haven't even gotten my order processed yet. So I don't even get my PDF yet, on top of not getting to see my hardcover until I redeploy from Iraq in December.
Now, if Paizo had waited to start shipping until the release date, the three people that chose two-day shipping would have theirs like, tomorrow or Sunday or something. Even supposing that the process would have been faster thanks to being after GenCon, I still wouldn't even get my PDF until at least next Friday most likely.
Just a different perspective.
I wasn't going to post either, but this is just insane.
I find it amazing that so many people here seem to have trouble understanding what Heymitch and KaeYoss' argument is. I get what they are saying and I think that they have a point. Vic from Paizo gets what the issue is and has admitted that they could have done things better.
I think most people here understand what the argument is.
I think it is reasonable to think when ordering that (unless you are explicitly told otherwise - not just a mention in a newsletter) if you choose a faster (and more expensive) shipping option then you will receive that item sooner than if you chose a cheaper and slower option.
On the other hand, I think it's completely UNREASONABLE to think that you're going to get a product before it's release date. In most cases, it's unreasonable to expect the product to ship before it's release date.
I certainly don't think many people would pay for the more expensive 2-day option just so they can get a tracking benefit. They do it so they can get their item sooner than if they chose a slower option. In this particular case choosing the faster, more expensive option did not actually mean you would get your item sooner.
I, and I'm betting a lot of people, had no misconceptions that one would get the item any sooner than the release date of the 13th. I purposely chose the cheaper shipping option, weighing that against the probability that I wouldn't receive the item on the release date, but, confident that had I chosen a "guaranteed" service, I would have. I chose to save money and risk delay. The options seemed pretty clear to me, without reading any of the forum messages or newsletters.
Given that, I think that Paizo should have e-mailed those people and explained to them exactly what the benefit of their more expensive shipping was (tracking, guaranteed delivery by date X, rather than a guaranteed delivery of between Y and Z) and given them the option of switching to another shipping option. Even more so since there were only 3 people that chose this option.
They sell books. They don't provide hand-holding.
I get the emotion. It sucks to see that a gambit didn't pay off, and money could have been saved. Paizo did the stand-up thing, and apologized for something they didn't need to apologize for, and is now going to explicitly define things. That's nice, but most people don't need the warning label on the plastic bag that says "do not place over head."
I'm curious exactly how many people who declined to pre-order, instead opting to buy the book at GenCon, are going to feel slighted if the book sells out before they can get a copy. How many of them are going to blame Paizo for not emailing them and telling them that they didn't bring enough copies for every attendee?
I'm further curious - had the original poster received his copy on the 13th, and witnessed posts by other forum members, who payed for the less-expensive shipping and had received their copies on the same date, would he still be "infuriated" that they somehow got something he didn't, or that he had been taken for a ride?
This can only happen on pre-orders, and I might at some point REALLY need something fast, so don't take expedited shipping away. Most people who pre-ordered "hoped" they would get their book on the 13th, some paid extra to guarantee it. It was a waste of money, and I hope Paizo gives the 3 people most affected some love, but it's not a world ending thing here.
On the other hand, I think it's completely UNREASONABLE to think that you're going to get a product before it's release date. In most cases, it's unreasonable to expect the product to ship before it's release date.
I agree. So, if as you suggest, it is reasonable that the product will ship out on or after its release date, then faster shipping would ... do what ... come on you can say it ... get there faster?
Let's look at the other other hand. They said only three people picked this shipping option. What would it have hurt for those three people to get their books early, by shipping out their books with everyone else's? Are three people going to ruin the entire release? Obviously not, since lots more than three got their books early and didn't ruin it. So what harm would it have been to ship these three customers' orders out in that first wave?
If the average shipping time would have gotten the cheapest rate to arrive on time, that means that probably about half would have to get it earlier (you know, the whole way average works), so by shooting for the average shipping to be the arrival time, you have to be expecting alot of people are going to get it early. Since you already are accepting of that fact, why not give the same treatment to your higher end customers? It was only three people.
I agree. So, if as you suggest, it is reasonable that the product will ship out on or after its release date, then faster shipping would ... do what ... come on you can say it ... get there faster?
I didn't say anything about WHEN the product would ship. I said it's unreasonable to expect to receive it prior to it's release date. If, as Paizo did, the retailer ships early in an attempt to get people their product by release date, I would expect that a certain service level would guarantee delivery by that date. That seems to be what happened. Nobody chose "Next Day", apparently - and rightly so, because it would be twice the cost for the same date of delivery.
Let's look at the other other hand. They said only three people picked this shipping option. What would it have hurt for those three people to get their books early, by shipping out their books with everyone else's? Are three people going to ruin the entire release? Obviously not, since lots more than three got their books early and didn't ruin it. So what harm would it have been to ship these three customers' orders out in that first wave?
The only reason people got their books early was due to the uncertainty of the Postal Service.
If the average shipping time would have gotten the cheapest rate to arrive on time, that means that probably about half would have to get it earlier (you know, the whole way average works)
I thought averages were more of a bell curve - the majority of people get it right around the expected time, and a minority get it early, a minority get it late.
so by shooting for the average shipping to be the arrival time, you have to be expecting alot of people are going to get it early. Since you already are accepting of that fact, why not give the same treatment to your higher end customers? It was only three people.
Ah, so paying for a certain level of shipping makes you a better customer? Good to know.
I am still waiting for my order.
This does not make me mad.
I am Ozzie and I am used to having to wait for things.
But here is the thing.
Paizo is a role playing supplier.
They are not a postal service.
Stop expecting them to be.
They have amazing prices on there PDFs so your still waiting like I am order the PDF $10 dollars.
Even someone like myself who is on a budget you can still scrounge ten dollars.
Don't finger point without having and solution to there problem.
Were in bit of a tight spot at the moment the world I am talking about.
This is most properly there most practical way of sending stuff out with the charges spiraling out of control.
I am very happy with them.
And I don't even have my book.
Please give them a chance.
They are struggling like the rest of us battlers.
On the other hand, I think it's completely UNREASONABLE to think that you're going to get a product before it's release date. In most cases, it's unreasonable to expect the product to ship before it's release date.
No one exptected to get it before the release date. I guess they expected that they would ship on the release date, and that that more expensive shipping would mean they'd get it closer to the release date than those with cheaper shipping, because all will be shipped more or less at the same time.
That was not the case.
I, and I'm betting a lot of people, had no misconceptions that one would get the item any sooner than the release date of the 13th.
You do know that a lot of people did get it before the release date.
The options seemed pretty clear to me, without reading any of the forum messages or newsletters.
You knew that with faster shipment, they'd intentionally hold up your shipment and ship it later? You must be the first.
They sell books. They don't provide hand-holding.
You don't have to get all condescending on people who have wasted money here.
Plus, have you actually witnessed Paizo customer service in action?
That's nice, but most people don't need the warning label on the plastic bag that says "do not place over head."Comparing someone assuming that faster shipments will arrive sooner with someone putting a plastic bag is the most ridiculously rude thing I've read today, not to mention asinine.
No one exptected to get it before the release date. I guess they expected that they would ship on the release date, and that that more expensive shipping would mean they'd get it closer to the release date than those with cheaper shipping, because all will be shipped more or less at the same time.
That was not the case.
You do know that a lot of people DIDN'T get it before the release date, no?
You do know that a lot of people did get it before the release date.
And I happened to be one of those. A pleasant surprise, but completely unexpected.
You knew that with faster shipment, they'd intentionally hold up your shipment and ship it later? You must be the first.
I knew that with a guaranteed-service shipping choice of UPS 2nd Day Air, that I'd receive my item either A> on the 13th (in the event that they chose to target date of release as date of arrival), or B> on the 15th (if they chose to target date of release as date of shipping). I strongly considered it, due to the risk of delay, and my excitement for the product, but then opted to save some fundage, and risk a delay.
You don't have to get all condescending on people who have wasted money here.
And people don't have to get "infuriated" that they were somehow gypped. Money wasn't wasted. He got a guaranteed delivery of his copy on date of release, something a bunch of people probably didn't get.
Plus, have you actually witnessed Paizo customer service in action?
Yes. They consistently go above and beyond the call of duty to handle both reasonable and unreasonable complaints. They're a fantastic company, and I quite enjoy giving them my money.
Comparing someone assuming that faster shipments will arrive sooner with someone putting a plastic bag is the most ridiculously rude thing I've read today, not to mention asinine.
Not everything needs a warning label, but gets it due to unreasonable people with unreasonable expectations. Common sense should be applied. It wasn't. Further, the original post was rude. Paizo "cavalierly" wasted his money? Come on.
I wasn't going to post either, but this is just insane.
I find it amazing that so many people here seem to have trouble understanding what Heymitch and KaeYoss' argument is. I get what they are saying and I think that they have a point. Vic from Paizo gets what the issue is and has admitted that they could have done things better.I think most people here understand what the argument is.
After reading all the posts on this thread, it is clear to me that they don't. I also think that you have missed what the argument is as well so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I think it is reasonable to think when ordering that (unless you are explicitly told otherwise - not just a mention in a newsletter) if you choose a faster (and more expensive) shipping option then you will receive that item sooner than if you chose a cheaper and slower option.On the other hand, I think it's completely UNREASONABLE to think that you're going to get a product before it's release date. In most cases, it's unreasonable to expect the product to ship before it's release date.
I think you're missing the point of what the original poster is unhappy about. He did not think that getting the quickest (and most expensive) shipping option would mean he got the book before the release date. He just thought that choosing the quickest shipping option would mean be the best option to get his book as soon as possible after the release date.
He certainly didn't think paying for 2 day shipping compared to regular shipping would just result in his book sitting in the Paizo warehouse a week longer and then arrive at around the same time. And I think that was a pretty reasonable assumption for him to make.
I certainly don't think many people would pay for the more expensive 2-day option just so they can get a tracking benefit. They do it so they can get their item sooner than if they chose a slower option. In this particular case choosing the faster, more expensive option did not actually mean you would get your item sooner.I, and I'm betting a lot of people, had no misconceptions that one would get the item any sooner than the release date of the 13th. I purposely chose the cheaper shipping option, weighing that against the probability that I wouldn't receive the item on the release date, but, confident that had I chosen a "guaranteed" service, I would have. I chose to save money and risk delay. The options seemed pretty clear to me, without reading any of the forum messages or newsletters.
I don't think the original poster thought paying for 2-day would somehow entitle him to get the book before the release date. I do think that he thought it would result in him getting the book quicker than if he just got regular shipping though. And that wasn't the case here. Paying for faster shipping did not mean you got the book sooner than if you had just paid for regular shipping. All it got you was the ability to track your order and the guarantee that your book would arrive 2 days after Paizo had shipped that.
Given that, I think that Paizo should have e-mailed those people and explained to them exactly what the benefit of their more expensive shipping was (tracking, guaranteed delivery by date X, rather than a guaranteed delivery of between Y and Z) and given them the option of switching to another shipping option. Even more so since there were only 3 people that chose this option.They sell books. They don't provide hand-holding.
I get the emotion. It sucks to see that a gambit didn't pay off, and money could have been saved. Paizo did the stand-up thing, and apologized for something they didn't need to apologize for, and is now going to explicitly define things. That's nice, but most people don't need the warning label on the plastic bag that says "do not place over head."
What gambit are you talking about? The original poster paid for 2-day shipping on the assumption that it would mean that his book would arrive quicker than if he bought regular shipping. Paying more for shipping and expecting to therefore receive the item earlier as a result seems a pretty reasonable assumption to make. I don't see how that is a dumb assumption to mave (as you allude to with your plastic bag example).
He wasn't trying to get the book before release. He's not pissed that others got the book before him. He's just annoyed that he paid a fair bit extra for faster shipping that did not result in him getting his book any quicker than if he had paid for regular shipping.
And as for Paizo not being there to hand hold. Paizo are a business. Businesses have a better chance of succeeding by pleasing their customers. This customer in particular spends several thousand dollars a year with Paizo. If they lost said customer it would probably mean that they would have to gain several other customers in order to get back the lost sales. So you try to keep the existing customer happy by doing things such as letting them know that the extra money they are spending on faster shipping won't get them their items any quicker.
I'm curious exactly how many people who declined to pre-order, instead opting to buy the book at GenCon, are going to feel slighted if the book sells out before they can get a copy. How many of them are going to blame Paizo for not emailing them and telling them that they didn't bring enough copies for every attendee?
I fail to see how that comment has any relevance to this topic.
I'm further curious - had the original poster received his copy on the 13th, and witnessed posts by other forum members, who payed for the less-expensive shipping and had received their copies on the same date, would he still be "infuriated" that they somehow got something he didn't, or that he had been taken for a ride?
If you actually read the original poster's posts, you would see that he has said that he doesn't care that other people who paid for cheaper shipping got their books on the same day or earlier than him. Good luck to them. He is annoyed that the extra money he paid for faster shipping did not actually get the product to him quicker.
Olaf the Stout
After reading all the posts on this thread, it is clear to me that they don't. I also think that you have missed what the argument is as well so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
The complaint is pretty well defined in this thread. The OP is unhappy that he paid more for a service level that he felt should get him his book before another less-expensive service level, and other people who chose that less-expensive service level got their book before he did, due to a wide service-window of that service level.
I think you're missing the point of what the original poster is unhappy about. He did not think that getting the quickest (and most expensive) shipping option would mean he got the book before the release date. He just thought that choosing the quickest shipping option would mean be the best option to get his book as soon as possible after the release date.
And it WAS the best option (or second best). The ONLY way to guarante that he'd get the book as soon as possile after release date was the shipping option he chose, or the next higher option.
He certainly didn't think paying for 2 day shipping compared to regular shipping would just result in his book sitting in the Paizo warehouse a week longer and then arrive at around the same time. And I think that was a pretty reasonable assumption for him to make.
I don't. You either choose the shipping option that risks a possible delay (I'll bet you that there are people who pre-ordered from Paizo who aren't going to receive their copies by the time Amazon pre-orders arrive for some others), or you choose a service that guarantees delivery in a certain period.
I don't think the original poster thought paying for 2-day would somehow entitle him to get the book before the release date. I do think that he thought it would result in him getting the book quicker than if he just got regular shipping though.
And, again, in some cases, he DID get it sooner than if he had chosen regular shipping. SOME people got it early, SOME people got it on time, and SOME people are getting it late.
And that wasn't the case here. Paying for faster shipping did not mean you got the book sooner than if you had just paid for regular shipping. All it got you was the ability to track your order and the guarantee that your book would arrive 2 days after Paizo had shipped that.
I live about 6 hours south of Bellevue, where I assume the warehouse is located. If I place two identical orders today, one with standard shipping, another with 2nd-Day, and they both ship on the same day, the odds that I receive them two days later is pretty good. In the case of standard shipping, though, it's not guaranteed. If you want to ensure you get something on the exact date, you choose the the appropriate service level.
What gambit are you talking about? The original poster paid for 2-day shipping on the assumption that it would mean that his book would arrive quicker than if he bought regular shipping. Paying more for shipping and expecting to therefore receive the item earlier as a result seems a pretty reasonable assumption to make. I don't see how that is a dumb assumption to mave (as you allude to with your plastic bag example).
His assumption was accurate, based on the variable and uncertian transit time of the other service levels. There was a hard release date. He got the product on that release date. He got EXACTLY what he paid for.
He wasn't trying to get the book before release. He's not pissed that others got the book before him. He's just annoyed that he paid a fair bit extra for faster shipping that did not result in him getting his book any quicker than if he had paid for regular shipping.
It DID result in him getting the book quicker than had he paid regular shipping - if you compare him to the people that don't have their book yet. You're choosing to ignore a portion of the pre-order customers to justify your argument.
And as for Paizo not being there to hand hold. Paizo are a business. Businesses have a better chance of succeeding by pleasing their customers. This customer in particular spends several thousand dollars a year with Paizo. If they lost said customer it would probably mean that they would have to gain several other customers in order to get back the lost sales. So you try to keep the existing customer happy by doing things such as letting them know that the extra money they are spending on faster shipping won't get them their items any quicker.
And they're apparently going to do this, in similar situations, from now on. That they didn't before doesn't really excuse the accusations of irresponsibility that he made in his original post.
I fail to see how that comment has any relevance to this topic.
Did Paizo notify anyone (outside of the forums or newsletter) that they might not have enough copies of the RPG for all GenCon attendees who wanted one? Should they have?
If you actually read the original poster's posts, you would see that he has said that he doesn't care that other people who paid for cheaper shipping got their books on the same day or earlier than him. Good luck to them. He is annoyed that the extra money he paid for faster shipping did not actually get the product to him quicker.
What he says, and what he infers with his complaint and tone are two totally seperate things.
I've bought a lot of stuff from Paizo. One of my earlier shipments came with a booster of GameMastery card things as a freebie/promo. The next shipment didn't. Is it my turn to be angry that I got exactly what I paid for, and nothing more?
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To Brian's comments...
Brian, I certainly agree with you on one thing. The tone of my original post was overly harsh. I was very pissy when I wrote it, and I regret now that I didn't give myself the time to settle down before posting it. I think that if you read my subsequent posts, you'll find that they're much more reasonable in tone. As I said, I can sometimes be a hot-head, but I tend to calm down to a normal level fairly quickly. I'm over being angry. Are you?
I don't agree with you that my supposition that faster shipping should equate to faster delivery of the item was a "gambit". That makes it sound like a long shot, a hail mary. Since every other shipment in the history of Paizo as a company worked in precisely that manner, I'd say it was fairly rational (unless, of course, someone told me otherwise--which I understand you view as excessive hand-holding).
That other customers received their books before me was never the issue. That their books shipped out a week in advance of mine was. If Paizo had begun shipping everyone's books starting on a certain date, they would still have to ship some customer's books later than others. I didn't have the same opportunity to get lucky that other customers did. Because I paid extra, my shipment was held where others weren't. That didn't happen randomly. Because I paid extra, I didn't get to play in the lottery at all.
I know that some people believe they can speak to why I paid extra for shipping. It wasn't to track my package. Frankly, I could have done that for less money. I don't care about "time in transit", and I don't think you or anyone else on this board could give me an example of where they were concerned with time in transit, but not "when will my shipment arrive"?
You seem to think that I feel that I'm entitled to a better level of service than everyone else. I don't, but I also don't think I should be entitled to less service. My package shouldn't sit idle, just because I paid more.
And again, for purposes of this shipment and other future shipments that use this delivery method, I don't think Overnight or 2nd Day Air shipping should even be offered.
You did mention that Overnight shipping was the next higher tier of service than what I selected. What you failed to mention is that it is precisely the same service. It just costs twice as much. If you order the book Overnight, and Paizo intentionally ships it one day later, it's the same as 2nd Day. It'll arrive at the same time, it can be tracked, there is guaranteed transit time (although not guaranteed delivery, as was previously mentioned). So, you identified a higher level of service that offers nothing but a higher price tag. I don't think Paizo should offer that. Do you?
To Brian's comments...
Brian, I certainly agree with you on one thing. The tone of my original post was overly harsh. I was very pissy when I wrote it, and I regret now that I didn't give myself the time to settle down before posting it. I think that if you read my subsequent posts, you'll find that they're much more reasonable in tone. As I said, I can sometimes be a hot-head, but I tend to calm down to a normal level fairly quickly. I'm over being angry. Are you?
I am. Forgive me for my tone and attitude.
I don't agree with you that my supposition that faster shipping should equate to faster delivery of the item was a "gambit". That makes it sound like a long shot, a hail mary. Since every other shipment in the history of Paizo as a company worked in precisely that manner, I'd say it was fairly rational (unless, of course, someone told me otherwise--which I understand you view as excessive hand-holding).
That other customers received their books before me was never the issue. That their books shipped out a week in advance of mine was. If Paizo had begun shipping everyone's books starting on a certain date, they would still have to ship some customer's books later than others. I didn't have the same opportunity to get lucky that other customers did. Because I paid extra, my shipment was held where others weren't. That didn't happen randomly. Because I paid extra, I didn't get to play in the lottery at all.
I know that some people believe they can speak to why I paid extra for shipping. It wasn't to track my package. Frankly, I could have done that for less money. I don't care about "time in transit", and I don't think you or anyone else on this board could give me an example of where they were concerned with time in transit, but not "when will my shipment arrive"?
I honestly didn't know WHEN my shipment would arrive. It wasn't until AFTER I chose my shipping method (USPS, non-priority) that I saw mention of the attempt to have items arrive on/as close to date of release as possible.
Having seen how preorders work with other establishments, I knew of two possible options - ship early to arrive on date of release, or ship on date of release. These were the two possibilities I had in my head when I debated between shipping options. I could save money, and HOPE it arrived on-time (ship early option) or save money and wait 1 day, 2 days, 2-3 days, 3-5 days or 5-10 days (ship on release date option).
I strongly considered priority mail or 2nd Day Air as options, because I really wanted the book, but I opted instead to save money.
This is my rationale for considering shipping a "gambit", and why time in transit is a concern.
You seem to think that I feel that I'm entitled to a better level of service than everyone else. I don't, but I also don't think I should be entitled to less service. My package shouldn't sit idle, just because I paid more.
I understand how you're looking at this, but I still can't agree with your view - I don't think that you got less, or that others got more. You did get what you paid for - the package on a guaranteed date. Further, if you didn't know that the books were going to be shipped early to arrive on date of release, then you got a perceived bonus - your book arrived on the date of release, rather than today. Even further, you're "luckier" than some, because they don't have their books yet.
And again, for purposes of this shipment and other future shipments that use this delivery method, I don't think Overnight or 2nd Day Air shipping should even be offered.
I think that 2nd Day Air should still most definitely be offered. Excluding Next Day Air, it's the only option that actually guarantees arrival on a certain date.
You did mention that Overnight shipping was the next higher tier of service than what I selected. What you failed to mention is that it is precisely the same service. It just costs twice as much. If you order the book Overnight, and Paizo intentionally ships it one day later, it's the same as 2nd Day. It'll arrive at the same time, it can be tracked, there is guaranteed transit time (although not guaranteed delivery, as was previously mentioned). So, you identified a higher level of service that offers nothing but a higher price tag. I don't think Paizo should offer that. Do you?
I'll concede that, as of August 4th (the date an email was sent by Paizo to customers that the RPG had sold out), and given Paizo's pre-release-date shipping decision, anyone who had selected Next Day Air should have been converted to 2nd Day Air. This apparently is a moot point, because nobody selected Next Day Air, if I read above correctly?
I'll also concede, that when forearmed with the knowledge that Paizo is going to ship early to target the date of release as the date of arrival of the product at your house, Next Day Air is a pointless choice over 2nd Day Air.
Consider this, however: Next Day Air is still a perfectly viable option, had Paizo not been sold out of the RPG on the 12th, and someone absolutely had to get the product on the day of release. Had their still been copies available, someone who failed to preorder until Wednesday could have gotten in under the buzzer and had their copy on Thursday.
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Let's look at the other other hand. They said only three people picked this shipping option. What would it have hurt for those three people to get their books early, by shipping out their books with everyone else's? Are three people going to ruin the entire release? Obviously not, since lots more than three got their books early and didn't ruin it. So what harm would it have been to ship these three customers' orders out in that first wave?
The problem is it doesnt quite wwork that way with shipping I'd hazard.
The problem is your assuming that just teh pathfinder book was the only thing out the door. There's teh difference between folks that just preordered the book, and those that preordered the book via a subscription and how it interacts with other folks subscriptions and their release- I hold for monthly shipping, so it came with the new AP and an adventure and teh cheleax book. But some folks have stuff ship as soon as its released.
Let's look at the other other hand. They said only three people picked this shipping option. What would it have hurt for those three people to get their books early, by shipping out their books with everyone else's? Are three people going to ruin the entire release? Obviously not, since lots more than three got their books early and didn't ruin it. So what harm would it have been to ship these three customers' orders out in that first wave?
The problem is it doesnt quite wwork that way with shipping I'd hazard.
The problem is your assuming that just teh pathfinder book was the only thing out the door. There's teh difference between folks that just preordered the book, and those that preordered the book via a subscription and how it interacts with other folks subscriptions and their release- I hold for monthly shipping, so it came with the new AP and an adventure and teh cheleax book. But some folks have stuff ship as soon as its released.
That is certainly a different issue. I am saying, all things being equal e.g. same subscriptions, same choice of when to ship (hold for everything or ship as soon as possible, then if the only difference between two customers is one payed for two-day shipping and one paid for the lowest cost shipping, then they should be shipped out at approximately the same time, and the two-day shipping should get there first. Paizo staff has repeatedly said they delayed shipping out people with two-day shipping (all three of them), not because they had other things they were waiting on, but solely on the fact they wanted everyone to be equal when it came down to delivery date.
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I'm pretty darn certain those boxes weren't just sitting around waiting to go out while nothing else was. They were constantly packing and shipping boxes for a solid week and a half to two weeks. The faster shippers were just a bit lower on the queue because the hope was for everyone who preordered to get theirs on the 13th or as close to as possible.