I got my notification today that the first part of this AP will be billing/shipping soon. Exciting!
This got me thinking about the Player's guide. It is my understanding that the player's guide will no longer be incorporated into the chronicles products, but will be a stand alone product. Is this correct?
Will subscribers to the AP be getting a free copy of this? I am sure it will be a free download for all, but it would be great to have a hardcopy.
Sean Mahoney
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hunh, I responded to this but it vanished, so here goes again.
I am under the impression from reading the boards and JJ's posts that the PG will be a 9pg or so PDF containing some campaign traits, a paragraph for each race and class and how they'll fit into the campaign and maybe some new feats or equipment. Hopefully we'll see some new achievement feats.
Creative Director
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There are two things that players can look forward to for Council of Thieves.
#1: The Cheliax Player's Companion. This is a 32 page product that releases at Gen Con. It's not free. It covers the nation of Cheliax in a manner similar to how we covered Taldor and Qadira in recent Companions. It's not necessarilly tied to the PLOT of Council of Thieves, but it's a great resource for both players and GMs to have if they're gonna run this AP.
#2: The actual Council of Thieves Player's Guide: This will NOT be a print product. It's going to be a free PDF you can come download at Paizo.com starting on the first day of Gen Con (the 13th of this month). This PDF will be probably something along the lines of 8 to 12 pages, maybe more, maybe less. It'll have the notes on what a player needs to know before he chooses a race and a class for his Council of Thieves character, and will also have a section that talks about the regions surrounding the city of Westcrown where the AP takes place to help GMs and Players expand the AP. The player's guide will also have six or so Council of Thieves Campaign Traits. We probably won't be emailing a copy to every subscriber, but I could be wrong there—I suspect you'll need to come to Paizo.com to grab a copy of it.
#2: The actual Council of Thieves Player's Guide: This will NOT be a print product.
Hrmm... that's too bad, my players were really impressed with the players guides I have given them to date. That said, I can understand that printing this would be an extra cost and extra work putting it further into the production schedule.
For what it is worth, I do prefer this as a stand alone product, and I would be happy to pay for it in the future (obviously too late for CoT). I also really liked being able to purchase the 5-pack for my players.
All that said though, going to the site and downloading it for free is not a hardship or inconvienience for me reading it. I really just appreciate getting it.
I suppose I actually might take a shot at just creating my own and tailoring it to each player when if I run this one (things like... people who took ranks in Knowledge: History know this, in Gather Information know these rumors, etc.) rather than just a generic one... we'll see how ambitious I get.
Sean Mahoney
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Creative Director
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There's also mention in Bastards of Erebus of a CoT Gamemaster's Guide? Is that still planned?
The content of the Gamemaster's Guide (which is going to be information about the area surrounding Westcrown) is looking like it's gonna get rolled into the Player's Guide, since there's nothing in there that PCs shouldn't know, and, indeed, it's stuff that can help players immerse themselves in the setting more.
For future reference I love this idea. I think those Gamemaster's sections are the best part of any of the Pathfinder products. I was so excited about the Osirion book, thinking I was going to get one of those city guides in it and just about cried when there wasn't one. Putting those in the guides to the countries is a great idea. A great idea. Seriously, like do this with more stuff.
While I don't disagree that the DM section has a place in many products, it just didn't make much sense to me to have a seperate DM guide for an AP. I guess in my mind the entire Pathfinder module is a DM guide... why wouldn't DM information just be included in that product?
Sean Mahoney
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Creative Director
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While I don't disagree that the DM section has a place in many products, it just didn't make much sense to me to have a seperate DM guide for an AP. I guess in my mind the entire Pathfinder module is a DM guide... why wouldn't DM information just be included in that product?
Because the author provided something like 14,000 words for an article we only had room for 10,000 words for.
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While I don't disagree that the DM section has a place in many products, it just didn't make much sense to me to have a seperate DM guide for an AP. I guess in my mind the entire Pathfinder module is a DM guide... why wouldn't DM information just be included in that product?Because the author provided something like 14,000 words for an article we only had room for 10,000 words for.
and i suppose we want to read those 4k words, right?
ok i want my 4k words! :D
ok yeah.. err i move along
nice thing about the free player's... i will be printing it the 13 or the 14 at latests
Do we have an ETA on the Council of Thieves Player's Guide yet? ;D
Do we have an ETA on the Council of Thieves Player's Guide yet? ;Dlet them finish gencon
... I've been enjoying my CoT PG... was released yesterday with all the other goodies.
... I've been enjoying my CoT PG... was released yesterday with all the other goodies.Do we have an ETA on the Council of Thieves Player's Guide yet? ;Dlet them finish gencon
I have downloaded it. :)
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Good stuff. I'm actually going to get to play in this one!
There's an error in the intro to the campaign traits section though. It cuts off right after "a man named..." There wasn't any stylized cut-off or fake bloodstains on that portion of the page, so I don't think it's one of those neat little interrupted-while-writing things at work. ;)
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I actually thought that the Westcrown Environs sections was in serious need of an edit.
Such serious need that I edited the whole thing, same content but lots of sentences restructured or rewritten with non-sequiturs, repetition and clumsy phrasing altered. I also re-ordered some sections to make more sense (so the falls come before the arches...)
I've just done it for my group; I would post it here but I don't know if Paizo would mind.
The weirdest bit is that there is some incredibly unnecessary detail (like the Fort has 7 buildings or the deeply detailed waterfalls) which are going to be limiting for DMs.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Hmm, I actually liked the environs section best. They give some rather realistic considerations for a major port (such as the arches) and felt organic and "real" to me. Why they should be limiting to the GM any more than any "canned description", I can not really follow.
That said, the editing is not quite as good as I would have expected. Sure, it is a freebie, and there was GenCon crunch - but usually, I don't expect to find missing half-sentences in Paizo products. :) No offense.
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The weirdest bit is that there is some incredibly unnecessary detail (like the Fort has 7 buildings or the deeply detailed waterfalls) which are going to be limiting for DMs.They might be very important in one of the future AP's.
In which case I will stand corrected.
However, if they don't then it limits GMs in creating sidetrek adventures. I suspect that the later adventures have not even been written yet and that means it even limits what Paizo's own writers can do without really contributing to the development of the environment for players.
In any case, that was more of an afterthought: most of the ideas are blinding but the execution was sub-par.
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The more I think about it, the more I'd rather player's guides went back to the Companion line. The Westcrown article AND the Tiefling article could've been added to the player's guide, along with some new feats, equipment, and a some more traits to fill it out. What would've gone into the back of the CoT 1 I don't know but I don't care much for the PDF only player's guide.
While I am not a large fan of the PDF only version either, I really don't think it did it's job when it was a part of the companion line. I really want a short, concise amount of information that the players ALL need when starting the campaign. Something that gives them some guidance on how the different races and classes fit into things here and then just public knowledge on things.
Anything longer and you get one player who reads it and the rest just flip through, say it is cool, then set it aside. That is the fate of the companion version in my experience.
Sean Mahoney
While I am not a large fan of the PDF only version either, I really don't think it did it's job when it was a part of the companion line. I really want a short, concise amount of information that the players ALL need when starting the campaign. Something that gives them some guidance on how the different races and classes fit into things here and then just public knowledge on things.
Anything longer and you get one player who reads it and the rest just flip through, say it is cool, then set it aside. That is the fate of the companion version in my experience.
Sean Mahoney
QFT
Having just read through the Player's Guide, I have one major issue. Namely, what the heck is Diabolist Raised doing in the campaign traits section? While it's a fitting trait for Chelaxians in general, it does not work as a Campaign Trait, meant to give the players a reason to come together in the first adventure. In fact, it does the opposite. The fluff text: "Certainly not a fool like some of your more idealistic acquaintances, possessed of bizarre ideals about personal freedoms and
egalitarian rulership" suggests that a character with this trait has every reason NOT to join the Children of Westcrown.
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Having just read through the Player's Guide, I have one major issue. Namely, what the heck is Diabolist Raised doing in the campaign traits section? While it's a fitting trait for Chelaxians in general, it does not work as a Campaign Trait, meant to give the players a reason to come together in the first adventure. In fact, it does the opposite. The fluff text: "Certainly not a fool like some of your more idealistic acquaintances, possessed of bizarre ideals about personal freedoms and
egalitarian rulership" suggests that a character with this trait has every reason NOT to join the Children of Westcrown.
I have to admit, I am having similar problems with all of the "campaign traits" in the CoT PG. When compared with the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire traits, the traits in the Council of Thieves PG are hugely less useful to me as a GM, in terms of bringing the PCs together. All of them read like Westcrown or Cheliax regional traits (except Tiefling Bastard, which is pretty clearly a racial trait), and none of them really meet the standards for what a campaign trait should be, as stated in the PG itself: a reason for the PCs to work together at the beginning of the AP.
If/when I run this, I fully expect to have to write campaign traits of my own, while using the traits in the PG as regional (or racial) traits alongside the stuff I come up with. This is something of a disappointment, to be honest.
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Creative Director
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Needed more campaign traits (like 4 or 5 more) but otherwise cool.
We generally never do more than about a half-dozen campaign traits, mostly because they're a LOT more wordy than standard traits, and because we want them to focus more on the campaign at hand. Putting in too many starts to make things feel a little diluted, especially since it's often cool if everyone in the group has a different trait with no traits left behind.
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Creative Director
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It's true that the #1 goal of these Campaign Traits was not to "get the party together." We wanted the traits to skew more towards encouraging the PCs to make Westcrown citizens, and to get them to make characters who will fit in well with the various themes of the adventures to come. The first adventure, Bastards of Erebus, does some of the work of gathering the PCs for you, after all; they're all contacted by the Children of Westcrown to attend a meeting, so there's less of a need for the traits to do this work. At least, that's the theory. We'll see how things pan out over the next few months and will take what we learn when we build the Kingmaker campaign traits, you can be sure.
EDIT: Also... due to the fact that the prep time for this Gen Con was particularly onerous, with an extra 900+ pages of content (between the RPG and the Bestiary) hitting us at the same time as convention prep and Adventure Path launch... we relied more heavily than ever before on the Player's Guide creation from our various freelancers. I think they did a really great job with it... but I also hope that going forward we'll be able to get back to producing these things entirely in-house with the next AP, since building Player's Guides does require a lot of insight and knowledge of the campaign to come.
Anyway, as always, comments are encouraged and welcomed! It's the only way we'll learn! :-)
I would say I'd like you guys to be a little more careful in ensuring their aren't plot spoilers in the Player's Guides and Companion lines. The comment earlier in the thread was accurate in citing too much detail on things the characters likely would not know.
My personal one was in the Conspiracy Hunter trait where there was a question "Could the fabled Council of Thieves, said to have been purged from the city ages ago, have somehow survived or reformed?" Can it really be in doubt after that question? I know the AP is called "Council of Thieves", but that seems a little too much info too early for me. I like the players to feel that they've discovered the main plot, not have it handed to them quite that easily.
There were other ones as well between the Player's Guide and the Cheliax Companion. Examples I'd cite are too much info on the nature of the Blight for my tastes and too much info in the Westcrown's Foundations block.
That's the kind of stuff I'll give characters, but only when they have sufficient Knowledge (Local) to justify it. I create a "what you know" handout for each character before play that reflects that character's knowledge skills, contacts, experiences and biases. There's a lot of conflicting info given to players of different characters 'cause heaven knows we all see different truths when we examine the same facts.
I end up copying out the sections I like, making some minor edits and creating my own player's guide. Since I'm sure a couple of my players will read the original I also change some of the "facts" in the campaign to keep them guessing!
I love the regional map and really appreciate having a good one for the players.
All the other info is great and I really appreciate that you guys do this. I just ask that you leave more room for mystery by being more vague in your references to major plot lines.
My personal one was in the Conspiracy Hunter trait where there was a question "Could the fabled Council of Thieves, said to have been purged from the city ages ago, have somehow survived or reformed?" Can it really be in doubt after that question? I know the AP is called "Council of Thieves", but that seems a little too much info too early for me. I like the players to feel that they've discovered the main plot, not have it handed to them quite that easily.
I think it is fair to say that players will have a good idea that the Council of Thieves will be involved due to the name of the AP. That said, their characters do not. The key to making this trait successful then would be to give them a BUNCH of conspiracies that they are looking out for and blaming things on. All the rest turn out to be false but the Council of Thieves turns out to be real. The player really will be playing along here, but I can see this one being a lot of fun to play out.
As for what those conspiracies are though... not sure... I figured I would read the rest of the AP (I won't be running it prior to it all being out) and see if anything pops, and if not hit these boards for inspiration.
Sean Mahoney
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Creative Director
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I would say I'd like you guys to be a little more careful in ensuring their aren't plot spoilers in the Player's Guides and Companion lines. The comment earlier in the thread was accurate in citing too much detail on things the characters likely would not know.
Part of the problem there is that what one group or GM might call a spoiler another group might not. While the general thought of things in Westcrown is that the Council of Thieves is gone and nothing more than a myth... there are PLENTY of people in Westcrown who are sure that the Council still exists. Having the PCs be folk who are sure they exist is fine. It's good, in fact, for the adventure, especially since we've taken a fair amount of heat/complaints in the past for hiding the identity of the bad guys so long that the players don't have time to learn to hate them. That, and as you mention the fact that the AP is called "Council of Thieves" all combined in my mind to assume that specific mentions of the Council in the AP was no more a spoiler than saying that the adventure's set in Westcrown.
It's good, in fact, for the adventure, especially since we've taken a fair amount of heat/complaints in the past for hiding the identity of the bad guys so long that the players don't have time to learn to hate them. That, and as you mention the fact that the AP is called "Council of Thieves" all combined in my mind to assume that specific mentions of the Council in the AP was no more a spoiler than saying that the adventure's set in Westcrown.
You made a good call.
Part of the problem there is that what one group or GM might call a spoiler another group might not. While the general thought of things in Westcrown is that the Council of Thieves is gone and nothing more than a myth... there are PLENTY of people in Westcrown who are sure that the Council still exists. Having the PCs be folk who are sure they exist is fine.
I agree! But by including it in a player's guide you preclude the option of having certain characters know it, but others think it is just a silly conspiracy. I really like to encourage that type of interplay between the characters in my games. We can manage around it, of course, by having the players not know...but it's not as cool imho. I could be in the vast minority here, but I figured I'd provide my opinion.
It's good, in fact, for the adventure, especially since we've taken a fair amount of heat/complaints in the past for hiding the identity of the bad guys so long that the players don't have time to learn to hate them. That, and as you mention the fact that the AP is called "Council of Thieves" all combined in my mind to assume that specific mentions of the Council in the AP was no more a spoiler than saying that the adventure's set in Westcrown.
No question the name pretty much gives the bad guys away. I'm sure it's tough to sell to GMs without revealing too much of the plot. Please, don't take this a being critical I'm just a GM suggesting you consider how you might allow the option of mystery for those that like them. Frankly, I can't imagine why anyone would give you heat about how long you kept the bad guys hidden. That is completely within the GMs control. But when the answer is revealed to the players in the player's guide, the cat is kinda out of the bag and GMs can't easily choose to do it differently.
You made a good call.
<shrug> I am often wrong.
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You made a good call.<shrug> I am often wrong.
not wrong... you just believe different
every GM has different experiences with their gamesi understand you trying to keep the villain in screcy so the players have to figure it, but also i understand the peiople who wat theplayers to know who is their enemy so they can hate them....
i like something in between... but to every its own
besides how many movies and books have been named in a way for nothing but a phrase said somewhere? and until you ehard or read it your realized why thename...
Jet Li does some of those like "Romeo must die" and the "Kiss of the Dragon"
this 2 names told you msotly nothing until close to the end when they used the phrase
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The first adventure, Bastards of Erebus, does some of the work of gathering the PCs for you, after all; they're all contacted by the Children of Westcrown to attend a meeting, so there's less of a need for the traits to do this work. At least, that's the theory.
(snip)
Anyway, as always, comments are encouraged and welcomed! It's the only way we'll learn! :-)
My concern is that the traits, which do indeed connect the PCs to Westcrown, don't actually do much to help the PCs want to say "yes" to the invitation to the meeting, which is the bit I was looking forward to. Bastards says,
It didn't actually work out that way in the final product, however, and I think it would have been a good idea for it to have done so (and that is probably what I will personally aim for when I write my own stuff up). To use the pregens as an example, I can easily understand what would make Seelah or Lem show up at the meeting, but what would draw Seoni or Seltyiel there? That's the question I would have liked the traits to answer, as they have done for previous APs.
<shrug> I am often wrong.
What Montalve said. Not wrong - just different! (It's just after - how many APs now, including both Dungeon and PF? - it's a bit of a refreshing change; CotCT and LoF notwithstanding.)
There's a very important piece that was cut off from a paragraph in the Player's Guide. In the section Campaign Traits, the third paragraph, the one right before Child of Infamy. It reads as follows:
"All of the following traits revolve around elements that
are important to the Council of Thieves Adventure Path.
You can look at these traits to get a general, spoiler-free
idea about the types of foes and problems your character
might face at some point during the Adventure Path—this
is by design. Knowing that there are going to be elements
such as thieves, shadow monsters, devils, and the like
should help you build a character that fits more organically
in the campaign you’re about to join. The following traits
are geared toward your character teaming up with a ragtag
group of adventurers, mercenaries, freed slaves, guards,
and rapscallions under the watchful eye of a man named"
And that's it. It cuts off right there. That seems like a pretty big thing for the player's to know.
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Creative Director
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There's a very important piece that was cut off from a paragraph in the Player's Guide. In the section Campaign Traits, the third paragraph, the one right before Child of Infamy. It reads as follows:
"All of the following traits revolve around elements that
are important to the Council of Thieves Adventure Path.
You can look at these traits to get a general, spoiler-free
idea about the types of foes and problems your character
might face at some point during the Adventure Path—this
is by design. Knowing that there are going to be elements
such as thieves, shadow monsters, devils, and the like
should help you build a character that fits more organically
in the campaign you’re about to join. The following traits
are geared toward your character teaming up with a ragtag
group of adventurers, mercenaries, freed slaves, guards,
and rapscallions under the watchful eye of a man named"And that's it. It cuts off right there. That seems like a pretty big thing for the player's to know.
That's alas some sort of unfortunate error that snuck in there. I'll try to get it fixed and get it reposted, but basically, that last half-sentence should just go away. It's meaningless; part of a concept we had early on that went nowhere and should have been cut. The correct reading of the paragraph should be:
"All of the following traits revolve around elements that
are important to the Council of Thieves Adventure Path.
You can look at these traits to get a general, spoiler-free
idea about the types of foes and problems your character
might face at some point during the Adventure Path—this
is by design. Knowing that there are going to be elements
such as thieves, shadow monsters, devils, and the like
should help you build a character that fits more organically
in the campaign you’re about to join"
Thanks James.
I have a CoT Tiefling Question:
Page 5 of the Player's Guide gives the option of making a Tiefling character start as a member of an NPC class.
However, I am having trouble finding what the starting funds for an NPC Adept, Commoner, Expert, Noble, or Warrior would be.
So, what would be the starting funds for a Tiefling character if this option were to be used?
Pg. 453 of the PFRPG goes over gear for NPCs.
The table on 454 shows a first level NPC get 260 gp. If the campaign you're running is high fantasy double the value. If low fantasy reduce by half.
True, but we are talking about using an NPC class for a PC.
In any event, very few Player Characters start with the 390gp that a Heroic 1st Level NPC has. The Fighter/Paladin/Ranger has the best range of 5d6 x 10gp. - which averages to 175gp. This is somewhat less then either the 260gp for a Non-Heroic NPC or the 390gp for a Heroic NPC.
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Creative Director
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Since they're NPC classes, and not intended to be PC classes (except in a strange case like this one, of course!), we didn't bother listing starting gold for these guys. I'd go ahead and just give adepts the same starting cash as clerics, warriors that of fighters, experts that of a rogue, aristocrats TWICE that of a rogue, and commoners like 10 gp or something pitiful.
Since they're NPC classes, and not intended to be PC classes (except in a strange case like this one, of course!), we didn't bother listing starting gold for these guys. I'd go ahead and just give adepts the same starting cash as clerics, warriors that of fighters, experts that of a rogue, aristocrats TWICE that of a rogue, and commoners like 10 gp or something pitiful.
This makes sense.
Thank You.
I think this Player's Guide is really awesome and quite useful for a player about to play the Adventure Path. It was great to get details about the city and surroundings, and I like the traits. They gave me some good ideas for character backstory and helped me integrate my character into Westcrown. So thanks for the great work! Please keep it up.
I also love the PDF format. Thanks for giving this book away for free :)
As others mentioned I noticed some possible typos in the Player's Guide. Is there a good place to give Paizo feedback on things like this? Do you prefer email? I hope you don't mind, but since Astralplaydoh already noted one of the issues above I will post the ones I found below. Please let me know if this is bad form; I'm happy to send feedback elsewhere if it's desired.
- p. 9, The Pathfinder's Exile: The third sentence says "Delvehaven lies under the pale of fearful rumors and dark magic". Is there a missing word here? e.g. "The pale [noun] of fearful rumors"?
- p. 10, Westcrown Environs: The last sentence of the first paragraph reads "... its ancient and eclectic architecture dominated by a crumbling northern quarter filled with an unseen menaces ...". Should this be "an unseen menace" or "unseen menaces"?
- p. 10, Westcrown Environs, second paragraph: "the following information is designed as an overview of region around that shining metropolis". Should this say "an overview of *the* region"? Or "of regions"?
- p. 10, The Westcrown Region: The first paragraph begins with "Many sites important to the daily life of Westcrown that are not situated within the city walls or directly on its waters". This sentence feels awkward. Could it perhaps be changed to "Many sites important to the daily life of Westcrown are not situated ..." (i.e. remove the word 'that') or "There are many sites ..."?
- p. 10, The Dhaenfens: The first sentence here refers to Westcrown as "the City of Twilights". Is that intentional and another accepted name for the city, or should the word "Twilights" be singular?
- p. 11, The Rikkan Ports: not so much a copyedit as a question for clarification. The first sentence says "two small port towns have grown up on the shores of the lake - Westpool and East Rikkan". Looking at the map, Westpool and East Rikkan appear to be on either side of the River Adivian. Should this sentence state that the towns are on the shores of the river instead, or are there actually lakes there that collect as water from the falls?
- p. 12, Westcrown's Foundations sidebar: The second paragraph, second sentence reads "The sewers developed over time, having once been natural the flood channels or canals...". Should the word 'the' be removed here so the sentence reads "The sewers developed over time, having once been natural flood channels..."?
--culix