I'm going to be honest, I did have a visceral, somewhat irrational reaction to the email and it wasn't a good one.
It may be a gut reaction, but let me just put this possibility out there: there may be reasons that make your gut very right, and your reaction not irrational at all. And Goodman's move may also be very well thought out, and there still be rational reasons for having a strong negative reaction to it.
Perhaps your dis-ease comes from the not merely what is being said, but from its combination with what is not being said.
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It may be a gut reaction, but let me just put this possibility out there: there may be reasons that make your gut very right, and your reaction not irrational at all. And Goodman's move may also be very well thought out, and there still be rational reasons for having a strong negative reaction to it.
Perhaps your dis-ease comes from the not merely what is being said, but from its combination with what is not being said.
I would absolutely agree with that. I felt the same way when White Wolf did the same thing with Exalted not too long ago. Stating you should "trade up" sounds like my current choice of game is somehow inferior or flawed. And you are right, what he is choosing not to say has just as much impact as what he chooses to "vocalize".
I am certain Joe Goodman was careful to choose his words for that ad and that kind of marketing disappoints me. I didn't think he would start taking cues from the Wizards of the Coast marketing school.
Meh. Whenever I feel crapped upon by other companies' words or actions, I just snuggle up closer to the big blue golem. Mmm, snuggly.
In any event, I completely resonate with your sense of disappointment. Even though I would no longer be a Goodman print customer because I'm not interested in 4e, I was still considering picking up a few of their minis, and this leaves a bad taste for me.
If it's such a great idea that you advertise it, you should be willing to completely come clean about it, and not answer questions without answering them.
I have no problem with the goodman offer even though I have no desire to play 4E, he's just trying to make money like anyone else. I am kind of disappointed they would offer such a low discount for these to the hard working fans that shelled out so much more for them. Sad to see Goodman entertain something like this.
I think its idiotic for people to let go of their old books for that low of an amount only to get such a small discount on new books. Most likely a discount this low wont be of much help to people who previously couldnt afford the cost of a regular new 4E book (unless its a goodman module which isnt all that expensive).
WotC should be promoting this kind of thing instead, so people can buy the expensive HC 4E core books and sample the game if they are so inclined.
And yeah, I can see Goodman ebaying these. They cant lose with this strategy. I just hope WotC-type practices dont rub off too much on Goodman.
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Just a reminder,
You can buy any Goodman Games products at GenCon with the discount you get from the Trade-in, not just thier 4E products.
You can Trade any 3e book including old 3.0 books and crappy 3rd party books you bought and should never have and no one else would ever buy off you.
This offer is good only at GenCon.
Most likely they will re-sell products the get from this that they can sell and throw away the others, as applied in Goodman Games reply to my email, but they will not re-sell them at GenCon.
By trading you'd have to get 4E product.
4E is SOOOOO last year....
Pathfinder is the new wave... ;)
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Well, contrary to what some say, I don't think this is such a bad deal really. 99% of players out there are not going to go door to door trying to sell off their old books, nor are they going to try selling them on eBay. So, instead of the old books just sitting and rotting in the back of the closet they get some financial use out of them.
Just because something may be valued in the market at a higher price is completely irrelevant until you actually have the money in hand.
And to be honest, I hope Goodman then turns around and sells the books they collect on eBay! They make a nice return doing what others did not want to do, they get their product out the door and hopefully get some new fans, and they recycle the old books back into the market to people who want them.
It's a win-win as far as I can see.
I mean really, guys, do you go to the bank and say "Hey, my net worth is really more because my 3.5 books would sell real nice on eBay."
And to be honest I have thought about selling off about 2/3 of my 3.5 books. I HATED the splat books not a single one was worth more than $2 in my opinion. Combine them all together and there was enough useful info there for maybe half a book. Most of the Prestige Class 3PP books I despise. Actually, other than monster books I'll likely get rid of nearly everything and wait for the Pathfinder versions to eventually come out.
But I'll likely sell them off on eBay :)
Nah, Krome, what you should really do is let me look through what you're selling, and I give you ten cents on the dollar of those I choose. I call it the "Make Mairkurion Happy by Filling out his Collection" Sale.
Give me your tired, dusty tomes. Your spurned splat books longing to be free.
Just a quick note to support Dragnmoon, in what I believe was a totally non-contentious intention to spread the word about the Goodman deal. While I'm not making any comment about the motives behind the Goodman trade-in thing, I will say that we Paizoites don't have any problem with people selling or trading in their old 3E and 3.5 stuff (or 2nd Ed, or 4E, etc.). If you decide that the PFRPG Core Rulebook means you don't need your 3.5 PHB anymore, and want to get some cash for it - awesome! It's not like many of us here haven't sold off (or, just as often, purchased) books from outdated editions before....
You don't have to get Goodman Games 4E products with the trade, Goodman Games makes plenty of products that are not 4E!...
But I agree about the Pathfinder comment.
So, what you're really saying, Dragnmoon...just kidding. Repeat: Don't shoot the messenger.
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I am not skeptical of the intentions at all. Their intentions I am quite sure, is to make some money.
IF that is a bad intention then no one should be buying Paizo products either...
I mean really, guys, do you REALLY think this is part of some great conspiracy or something? You guys are acting like the executives at Hasbro invited Goodman to their secret "Pentagram Chamber" and let him in on a small part of their plans to take over the world or something.
You wanna have an idea of what they want to do with the books they collect, then read between the lines. They only want books in pretty good condition. The only reason I see for wanting books in good condition is to resell them. If you just want to pulp them then you would take any condition at all.
Is it wrong to resell the books? Nope not the least.
There is no great conspiracy here. No evil plot. Just simple business to make a buck.
Really, go back and read some of the stuff up there. I picture you guys sitting around with tinfoil hats shaking in fear the aliens are going to get you.
OH GOD! LOOK BEHIND YOU IT'S AN ALIEN! lol sorry had to do it... I bet some of you even looked! lol roflmao lol oh that was fun!
Nah, Krome, what you should really do is let me look through what you're selling, and I give you ten cents on the dollar of those I choose. I call it the "Make Mairkurion Happy by Filling out his Collection" Sale.
Give me your tired, dusty tomes. Your spurned splat books longing to be free.
I'll see your ten cents on the dollar, and raise it to fifteen cents on the dollar!
You wanna have an idea of what they want to do with the books they collect, then read between the lines. They only want books in pretty good condition. The only reason I see for wanting books in good condition is to resell them. If you just want to pulp them then you would take any condition at all.
Is it wrong to resell the books? Nope not the least.
There is no great conspiracy here. No evil plot. Just simple business to make a buck.
If I was a really strong cynic, I would say the goal was to remove books that had the potential to be resold, thus helping to kill off the market for former products. Low quality products would not need to be removed because they would not likely be able to be resold in any case.
Sure, Krome. And when people refuse to give straight answers, it's because they naturally speak in such a tortured way. Uh-huh. Because people would never give answers to questions not asked just to distract their audience into thinking they answered the question. And the idea that companies engage in certain strategies, less than virtuous, that they want to keep close to their chest to fulfill their intention to make money is fodder for mockery. Yeap, somebody's laughing their ass off...
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If I was really paranoid, I would say the goal was to remove books that had the potential to be resold, thus helping to kill off the market for former products. Low quality products would not need to be removed because they would not likely be able to be resold in any case.
There fixed that for you.
I am just curious though, in what way does that actually benefit Goodman Games since they sell products for 3.x and 4E. Even if they ONLY sold products for 4E how exactly does help them? ANd remember they sell over 50 adventure modules for 3.5. I mean really how does it make them money?
Let's say you make adventures for 4E exclusively. You see another game system is doing well. So would YOU want to take a financial loss on your products now in order to weaken demand for that other system?
Besides, I don't see them asking for Vampire books or GURPS or Shadowrun or True 20, or other systems that drain money from being used exclusively on 4E.
I mean really IF you were a businessman you would seriously want to take a financial loss to help out another much richer company? Really? I don't think you would be in business very long...
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think the devil's advocate argument is that they don't particularly want the books or care about getting the books out of the market. They want people to see their books and think "ooh, I can easily make money by turning in my books." It makes it seem like you're getting some value out of your used property and thus (hopefully) will increase your willingness to purchase products from Goodman Games.
It also might be to limit the discounts they give. They could just as easily say "everyone who brings in a coupon (available on the internet) gets $X off our products." This is just a slightly more complex coupon.
But, all that said, I can't imagine what they plan to do with all those books after the fact...
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Sure, Krome. And when people refuse to give straight answers, it's because they naturally speak in such a tortured way. Uh-huh. Because people would never give answers to questions not asked just to distract their audience into thinking they answered the question. And the idea that companies engage in certain strategies, less than virtuous, that they want to keep close to their chest to fulfill their intention to make money is fodder for mockery. Yeap, somebody's laughing their ass off...
seriously... you would take a financial loss to help out a mega rich company?
I think somebody needs to adjust their tinfoil hat... :)
oh and from what I can see they pretty much gave a straight answer.
Wait! Here, let's try one!
Hey Lisa! Just exactly how much profit are you guys making right now?
now, if she doesn't give a straight answer it's because they are up to some nefarious deed! *gets my tinfoil hat to join the crowd*
It's business. You NEVER give a straight answer to what your plans are. THAT is the way business works.
I mean seriously, you guys are sounding ridiculously paranoid over nothing.
OH GOD! IT'S THE BOOGEYMAN OUT TO GET YOU! roflmao sorry had to see how many of you looked... a LOT did! lol
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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FWIW, I can appreciate the emotional reaction to this sale. I remember being extremely annoyed at White Wolf's ploy to do something similar where you could trade in 3e books for Exalted books. But, that might be because I have a hatred of Exalted that is so deep it causes me to experience pain when I pee.
It's funny - I didn't see this action as an attempt to suppress non-4E material, but more an attempt to severely underpay gamers for 3E/3.5 content, and then resell.
Not that there's anything BAD about that, but I think their offering price is insultingly low.
Of course, that's just me.
As your previous post I think shows, Sebastian, it's not strictly an emotional reaction. Even though it would surprise me to learn that Goodman is getting into the used book business, I'd at least have to assume that they were if they said that they were. As long as they talk around saying this, then it's not emotional hysteria searching for a conspiracy when I and others are suspicious about what they are doing with those books -- as Krome seems to say that it is. Nope, it is just paying attention. I can only assume Krome went to the dentist office today, and I'll wait for him to calm down.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As your previous post I think shows, Sebastian, it's not strictly an emotional reaction. Even though it would surprise me to learn that Goodman is getting into the used book business, I'd at least have to assume that they were if they said that they were. As long as they talk around saying this, then it's not emotional hysteria searching for a conspiracy when I and others are suspicious about what they are doing with those books -- as Krome seems to say that it is. Nope, it is just paying attention. I can only assume Krome went to the dentist office today, and I'll wait for him to calm down.
I dunno know about that. What was White Wolf doing with the 3e books they presumably got as a result of their sale?
The whole thing really depends on how much you value your 3e books. If you value them for less than $3/book, then this is a good deal (though it seems like a better deal could be had by selling them on ebay).
So, I do think it's an emotional reaction, not a logical reaction. I just don't think that the used book market for 3e products is profitable enough to justify these manipulations, nor do I think the response will be large enough to cause any disruption to the market. I think Goodman's motives are in line with what I've described above, and that they are basically indifferent to acquiring books and are using them only to provide incentive to get people to participate.
By trading you'd have to get 4E product.
4E is SOOOOO last year....
Pathfinder is the new wave... ;)
Dave... for the last time... You don't have to get Goodman Games 4E products with the trade, Goodman Games makes plenty of products that are not 4E!...
But I agree about the Pathfinder comment.
Sorry, Dragonmoon - no offense meant!
I thought I heard that WW was destroying the books. Was that not the case? It's been long enough that I couldn't tell you where I heard that, and I admit I could easily be wrong.
Again, if they had no interest in acquiring the books, then why would they acquire the books? An email coupon would get word out. A drawing or a coupon for people who joined the mailing list would up participation and expand their potential customer base. It would be cheaper and just as effective, at least.
A word on the used 3rd ed market: I have complained about (significantly) damaged 3e products being half-priced at Half Price Books, just like the undamaged ones. I was told on both occasions that the books were so hot that they would not discount the damaged copies, as they do for other damaged books. So, you may well quibble about how profitable it would have to be for it to be worth it for someone to attempt to manipulate it, but it is clearly profitable.
Well I suppose if you had some really useless books lying around and didn't have any other use fore them and didn't want to waste the time to sell them or trade them any other way then go for it. But otherwise this deal sounds a lot like a pawnbroker's deal to me. Buy for nothing sell high. You get the idea.
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FWIW, I can appreciate the emotional reaction to this sale. I remember being extremely annoyed at White Wolf's ploy to do something similar where you could trade in 3e books for Exalted books. But, that might be because I have a hatred of Exalted that is so deep it causes me to experience pain when I pee.
But that is different. White Wolf publishes Exalted. Goodman games does not publish 4E.
...that might be because I have a hatred of Exalted that is so deep it causes me to experience pain when I pee.
Sorry, man; that isn't your hatred of Exalted! :P
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Well I suppose if you had some really useless books lying around and didn't have any other use fore them and didn't want to waste the time to sell them or trade them any other way then go for it. But otherwise this deal sounds a lot like a pawnbroker's deal to me. Buy for nothing sell high. You get the idea.
ummm yeah, that is call making money...
just curious does anyone think Paizo pays any thing close to the retail cost of their books? Lord I hope not!
the NATURE of any business is buy low and sell high. Again how is that wrong?
Umm the whole idea of the stock market is buy low and sell high. I had SUCH a laugh this last year when I heard people freaking out their stocks were dropping so they sold them off to avoid loosing any more money. They should NEVER have been in the market to begin with. Buy low, sell high. You can't live with that get out of the market. sorry for the sidetrek.
So far it seems the real complaint is about capitalism in general... :) and paranoia. lol
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I thought I heard that WW was destroying the books. Was that not the case? It's been long enough that I couldn't tell you where I heard that, and I admit I could easily be wrong.
Again, if they had no interest in acquiring the books, then why would they acquire the books? An email coupon would get word out. A drawing or a coupon for people who joined the mailing list would up participation. It would be cheaper and just as effective, at least.
It's like a car dealer running a deal where they give anyone a fixed amount of money for bringing in a car to trade in (as opposed to the blue book value). They don't particularly care about the used car they receive, they want you to purchase a new car from them. They could (and frequently do) say "we'll give everyone $X off a car" but requiring you to bring a used car can allow them to give more money because it limits the pool of people who can participate.
In addition, if you hear an ad like that, you might look at your current car and think "huh, maybe this is a good time to trade this in and buy a new car." It changes the way you think about your car and gives you a readily available dollar value for it. Do I want my existing car, or do I want the cash associated with my car in a trade-in.
The theory of this sale is that people who have a shelf full of old 3e books will look at them and say "huh. I don't use these anymore. Maybe I should do something with them. I hear Goodman's got a good trade-in deal" and go and buy them.
Now, granted, in the above example, the car dealer can take your used car and resell it to make a profit, but they are primarily interested in stimulating demand for their existing products, not increasing the supply of used products they can sell.
I have no idea what WW did with the books, but I think the concept is ultimately the same. If the books have a market value greater than what Goodman is offering, don't sell them. It's as simple as that. If you're in the category of people without access to Ebay or the ability to compare the resale price of your books on that venue (or at your FLGS), you're a rube who deserves to be taken to town. Rubes like that who sell low and buy high are the backbone of capitalism!
It's a marketing gimmick, and one that's used all over the place. Heck, when I got my new cell phone, AT&T gave me some nominal value for the old obsolete one. I suppose they might have refurbished it and resold it, but I can't imagine that the value of such a phone is in excess of the shipping costs to get it to them. They just wanted me to feel like I was trading up and getting some value for the thing I bought and no longer wanted.
ummm yeah, that is call making money...just curious does anyone think Paizo pays any thing close to the retail cost of their books? Lord I hope not!
the NATURE of any business is buy low and sell high. Again how is that wrong?
Umm the whole idea of the stock market is buy low and sell high. I had SUCH a laugh this last year when I heard people freaking out their stocks were dropping so they sold them off to avoid loosing any more money. They should NEVER have been in the market to begin with. Buy low, sell high. You can't live with that get out of the market. sorry for the sidetrek.
So far it seems the real complaint is about capitalism in general... :) and paranoia. lol
Dude, the world doesn't need more people MAKING THE WORLD SAFE FOR CAPITALISM(TM)!!! Seriously, a whole bunch of us understand basic economics, even if we don't worship at the altar of Milton Friedman. Honest.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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FWIW, I can appreciate the emotional reaction to this sale. I remember being extremely annoyed at White Wolf's ploy to do something similar where you could trade in 3e books for Exalted books. But, that might be because I have a hatred of Exalted that is so deep it causes me to experience pain when I pee.But that is different. White Wolf publishes Exalted. Goodman games does not publish 4E.
Yes, but I can still appreciate the emotional reaction. The chain of logic is more tenuous, but emotional reactions rarely overlap perfectly with logical reactions.
I have a hatred of Exalted that is so deep it causes me to experience pain when I pee.
I'm fairly certain that you can take antibiotics for that, and that you might go blind if you don't have it checked out soon. I think . . .
See, Sebastian, I'm fine as long as rational explanations are available. The car dealer sells my used car, if he couldn't he wouldn't buy it. For all I know, ATT turns around and does some program about how green they are, taking back those phones and giving a few pence to keep people from dumping them -- that would create great PR. But I bet in those examples, the people you're dealing with are happy to tell you what they are doing and why they are doing it. When someone is given an opportunity for doing so and they refuse to do so, then saying those who press the question are paranoid, overly emotional, or not logical...well, you said something about rubes...
Now, perhaps it is just a(n odd) gimmick; I never ruled out that possibility. But there is rational reason for suspicion, whatever the case may be.
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I thought I heard that WW was destroying the books. Was that not the case? It's been long enough that I couldn't tell you where I heard that, and I admit I could easily be wrong.
Again, if they had no interest in acquiring the books, then why would they acquire the books? An email coupon would get word out. A drawing or a coupon for people who joined the mailing list would up participation. It would be cheaper and just as effective, at least.
It's like a car dealer running a deal where they give anyone a fixed amount of money for bringing in a car to trade in (as opposed to the blue book value). They don't particularly care about the used car they receive, they want you to purchase a new car from them. They could (and frequently do) say "we'll give everyone $X off a car" but requiring you to bring a used car can allow them to give more money because it limits the pool of people who can participate.
In addition, if you hear an ad like that, you might look at your current car and think "huh, maybe this is a good time to trade this in and buy a new car." It changes the way you think about your car and gives you a readily available dollar value for it. Do I want my existing car, or do I want the cash associated with my car in a trade-in.
The theory of this sale is that people who have a shelf full of old 3e books will look at them and say "huh. I don't use these anymore. Maybe I should do something with them. I hear Goodman's got a good trade-in deal" and go and buy them.
Now, granted, in the above example, the car dealer can take your used car and resell it to make a profit, but they are primarily interested in stimulating demand for their existing products, not increasing the supply of used products they can sell.
I have no idea what WW did with the books, but I think the concept is ultimately the same. If the books have a market value greater than what Goodman is offering, don't sell them. It's as simple as that. If you're in the category of...
Um, internet? Spreading of paranoia and loathing?
C'mon, man!!! This is black helicopter territory hyoh!!!Quit splannin stuff all logical-like.
Logic=Fail in my book.
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FWIW, I can appreciate the emotional reaction to this sale. I remember being extremely annoyed at White Wolf's ploy to do something similar where you could trade in 3e books for Exalted books. But, that might be because I have a hatred of Exalted that is so deep it causes me to experience pain when I pee.
That's more like it.
I have no opinion about Exalted, but loathing and psychosomatic enlarged prostates I understand.
the NATURE of any business is buy low and sell high. Again how is that wrong?
Well for me it all comes down to being cheated. I feel cheated when somebody offers me less than half what I paid for something no matter what the circumstances are. I personally would rather give it away to someone who wanted it than take the offer. But hey, I'm nuts so you know whatever and all that.
Yeah, let's dump logic. We can pepper our posts with lots of acronyms, internetisms, and mockery. That'll be just awesome. Tell ya what, I'll give out 3 pieces of mockery for every 3.x book that I do not have that is sent to me.
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I just see Goodman games as a very pro-current edition company...I hope they do something good with the copies they get from the con, instead of say...returning them to Wizards for destruction...
Me being a Pathfinder kinda guy, and not a 4e kinda guy, I'm holding onto my massive collection of 3.x books. I think I bought 1 DCC adventure book PDF...the first compilation book of starting adventures.
HAHA, Yeah, Exalted...not my cup of tea...it's too large and full of Chi...
It's like a Chi Tea Latte from Starbukks that is in a 55 gallon drum...
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I definitely see this as a tactic that basically is designed to make people look at a bookshelf full of stuff and rethink its value.
If you want to try and sell it for more, then do it.
If you want to hang onto it, then do that.
But if you want to take the books to GenCon and trade it in for some new Goodman products, then do it. I'm pretty sure that Goodman isn't going to be mugging people, stealing their books and throwing $3 coupons at them...
As for the bit about not giving a straight answer, I imagine it will very much depend on what they get. There are a lot of 3rd Ed products out there not worth the paper they're printed on, which may be destroyed/recycled, while the decent stuff would probably be resold (for a *gasp* profit, I'd imagine).
Everyone who wants Goodman stuff should go online - order Fast Forward products at $0.01 each, and use those for trade in. :D
What's Fast Forward?
What's Fast Forward?
I really, really wish I didn't know....
That bad, Dave?
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What's Fast Forward?I really, really wish I didn't know....
My gods that stuff. Well, I should not say anything too bad as there were people behind those projects and I don't want to needlessly hurt feelings. But it was some of the worst material I had ever seen. While Mongoose was always hit and miss with their material Fast Forward was always miss. And remember, that was me being tactful.