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My uber munchkin wizard starts with one level aristocrat from the DMG. You'll find the weapons, skills and wealth options help a wizard in the long run.
Any "munchkin build" that starts with a level of an NPC class is worth some applause.
LOL
I spat my coffee on the keyboard, you owe me a new G15!
Wow! How did you get a G15??? I only have a G5! :)
Skill-wise Wizards still rule the roost, both with access and with ranks gained via Int bonus. I think that the eclecticness of sorcerers warrants a 4+ skill adjustment. That and: It was described that skill points was based on free time aside from class training and who, honestly, has more non-class free time than sorcerers?
Yes, it's this quoted text that made me think that INT only affects level 1. Maybe it's just badly worded, I hope so. Still, it's not clear since it conflicts with the INT description, which one is correct? Hopefully it's more clear in the full RPG.
The paragraph reads something like:
The number of skill ranks you gain when taking a level in one of the base classes is shown on table 5–1.<snip>
At each level after 1st, you gain a number of skill ranks dependant upon your class.
Barbarian 4 + Int modifier
So you can see it does explicitly state that you get your Int modifier when you level up, even in that same paragraph. All that one out of context sentence says it that your class plays into how many skill points you get... which is true either way.
Combined with the Intelligence description, there really is no question.
For sheer number of spells per day, the sorcerer can't be beat.
Of course, leaving bonus spells due to high ability scores out...
Sorcerer: Total Spells: 5 Cantrips Available: 5
Wizards: Total Spells: 3 Cantrips Available: 4
Now, one of the wizard's three spells is a level two, whereas all of the sorcerer's are level ones. But for sheer number... yes, the sorcerer wins.
You mave have been confusing the wizards cantrips with level one spells... but that's how many of his cantrips he may choose for unlimited castings per day. The sorcerer doesn't have a cantrip listing on his spells per day list because once he knows a cantrip, he may cast it as much as he wants.
Personally, I prefer sorcerers to wizards (at least at higher levels) because I think that preparing spells is a clunky mechanic. The bloodlines I like the best are Arcane, Fey, Elemental and Destined.
Clunky mechanic? Agreed. (But it does, unfortunately, well represent how the wizard uses magic from an outside source.)
Best bloodlines? Agreed. I like aberrant, as well. I was really looking foward to draconic, but it came out a little too... physical.
Of course, leaving bonus spells due to high ability scores out...
Fair enough -- anyone who has a spellcaster with more than 11 in his casting stat is obviously a munchkin and a power-gamer.
( ;-) just kidding)
Fair enough -- anyone who has a spellcaster with more than 11 in his casting stat is obviously a munchkin and a power-gamer.
Are you kidding!? Eleven!?
MYYYYY sorcerer has an 8 in his casting stat! No powergaming HERE!
(And yet, I find myself mysteriously bored with the character.)
:D
So when people were talking about how the Sorcerer/Wizard will have something to do every round even if they are out of spells, were they talking about the 1d6+1/2 CL ray attack that some of the bloodlines get or am I just having a horrible 4E flashback or something? Or was it just that cantrips are now free which is something that everyone already housed anyway a long time ago?
Shame the ray attack doesn't scale better but I guess once you reach higher levels, you probably will never use it anyway except during clean up.
Of course, leaving bonus spells due to high ability scores out...Fair enough -- anyone who has a spellcaster with more than 11 in his casting stat is obviously a munchkin and a power-gamer.
( ;-) just kidding)
actualy if the wizard didn't get any bonus spells from int he/she wouldn't even be able to cast his/her level 2 spell. Poor wizard.
I've always liked the fact that the sorcerer doesn't need anything but 8 hours of rest. He's completely self-reliant.
Probably the same reason I've always liked the monk (even though I always have a hard time seeing him adventuring with a group, though).
Every even level, I would bet on the sorcerer, but every odd level, the wizard has a definite edge.
Regarding the number of skill points, PF makes the difference even more advantageous than before, as you can get a lot more from your cross-class skills.
You probably can tell I'm also on the fence about choosing between those two for an upcoming AP... My dilemma is probably a good sign about balance..?
DW
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If you are looking for a fun concept, make a 'vampire' build. 2 levels of barbarian get you a boost on hit points, BaB, Fort saves, and a bite attack(if you choose Animal Fury). Then go undead bloodline sorcerer(and pick spells you think have a distinct 'vampire' feel to them) and wrap things up with Eldritch Knight(or something else if you have acess to it). Casting in armor(and with a shield) become easy with mithral and Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Armor Mastery. It can be fun casting Vampiric Touch, holding the charge, raging for a bite attack, then using Vampiric Touch with your bite attack.
Partial credit for this build goes to A. Spalding, for helping me pick the class levels and some spells.
I think the whole thing comes down to a mechanical and roleplaying preference. Honestly, looking over the two classes, they're almost entirely on par with each other (especially now!). Wednesday will really cement this concept, so we'll have to wait until then. However, if you're struggling to decide, I'd consider this:
Sorcerers are haughty, magically blooded people whose ancestors got a little frisky with something unusual. Regardless of how the character perceives their heritage, they're very likely to show signs of their unique bloodline. Fluff wise, a dragon sorcerer might have accents of scales around his eyes, and a fey sorcerer might always smell of fresh rain or flowers. Undead sorcerers might have an unnerving stare, and celestial sorcerers may have platinum blond hair and unusually metallic skin. Aberrant sorcerers might blink at an usual pace, or have alien eyes. It could be a lot of fun deciding what unique features your sorcerer has. Sorcerers tend to view their magic as an art, and as an extension of themselves.
Wizards are book smart scholars who spend their lives trying to imitate what a sorcerer does naturally. They expand their studies into different areas, exploring the magic of fey, aberrant, celestial, draconic, etc. Wizards are likely to be offended if you scoff at their accomplishments, as they've dedicated years to their tasks. Wizards explore the mechanics of magic, seeing it as a science and tool of the universe.
Mechanically speaking, they're nearly equal. Sorcerers have 50% more spells per day, before bonus spells, and have great flexibility in what they can cast as encounters arrive (5 magic missiles? You got it.). Wizards may cast fewer spells, but they gain their spells more quickly and aren't crippled if they take a spell they'll only use once or twice, and can change their spell selection based on the adventure. Wizards can apply metamagic feats more effectively, but Sorcerers gain more benefit from them, being able to choose on-the-fly whether or not to boost a spell (even if it takes longer to cast). Sorcerers gain even more use out of "sometimes useful" metamagics, like Energy Substitution or Silent/Still spell. Both classes gain unique class features (school focus & bloodlines) that stand about on par with each other, with wizards gaining magic-oriented bonus feats and sorcerers gaining thematically-oriented bonus feats.
Even the difference in casting stats is minor. Intelligence is a stronger ability than Charisma if you choose to pursue a skill based character, but while Intelligence governs knowledge based skills (knowledge: whatever, decipher script, disable device), charisma governs powerful social skills (diplomacy, bluff, use magic device). In fact, a sorcerer willing to focus on Use Magic Device can push it to some seriously high check results (especially with a +6 from skill focus). Just holding on to a stack of scrolls and wands could work wonders for a party.
So, really, just go with which one you'd have more fun playing. They're almost equal, depending on your group.
So when people were talking about how the Sorcerer/Wizard will have something to do every round even if they are out of spells, were they talking about the 1d6+1/2 CL ray attack that some of the bloodlines get or am I just having a horrible 4E flashback or something? Or was it just that cantrips are now free which is something that everyone already housed anyway a long time ago?
Shame the ray attack doesn't scale better but I guess once you reach higher levels, you probably will never use it anyway except during clean up.
Erm... there is that plus the 8th level power for the sorcerer, and/ or claws.... basically whatever the bloodline brings to the table is it. Your 1d6+1/2 power is for levels 1-5 and for when things are winding down and you don't want to waste a spell. Once past 6th level or so those things are less and less relevant and you have plenty of spells to keep things hopping.
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Wizards = can get all the spells but limited casting of spells
Sorcerer = cast lots of spells but limited by the number of spells
The fist thing to know is you need very few spells you need.
Most Wizards pick the same spells day after day and scroll every thing else. With a sorcerer you only need to pick the spells to cast them. In order to be a good Sorcerer all you need is the bench mark spells.
As a wizard you need the same spells but you will have most of the buffing spells on scrolls and not casting them. Due to your reduced casting.
What I conceder bench mark spells
1st level
Magic Missle
Shield
Ray of Enfeablement
2nd level
Knock
Scorching Ray
Web
3rd level
haste
heroism ( if you dont have a bard in the party )
fire ball
4th level
phantasmal killer
cloud kill
dimition door
5th level
teleport
charm monster
6th level
finger of death
greater heroism ( if you dont have a bard in the party )
That just a the basic spells you cast the most. There is still room for more spells for you to pick from. One way or the other thay work the same way. Sorcerers can just cast them more often then wizards.
That being sayed I play wizards for RP only. Wizards get all the Metea Magic feats but its hard for them to use them becous they must prepare them that way. Extend is the only one thay get a lot of use out of. where as a Sorcerer dose not get as meny meta magic feats but get much more use out of takeing them.
Race
Dwarf = Wizards str 8 dex 10 con 20 int 17 wis 10 chr 6 ( if i rember corectly ) all you need is spell casting INT and exta HP to survive
Halfling = Sorcerer i dont rember what i did with the stats but i went high dex and chr.
I play a Wizard becous thay get to be dwarfs. Takes somthing specal to kill them. becous a Dwarf Wizard at level 20 with a starting con of 20 +6 con item Toughness feat and avrage rolls end up with 246 HP caping out at 308 HP. Level one starting HP con 20 1st level feat toughness and starting base hp = 14
You probably can tell I'm also on the fence about choosing between those two for an upcoming AP... My dilemma is probably a good sign about balance..?
DW
Indeed. A good sign of balance indeed.
Nice point :)
Wizards get all the Metea Magic feats but its hard for them to use them becous they must prepare them that way. Extend is the only one thay get a lot of use out of. where as a Sorcerer dose not get as meny meta magic feats but get much more use out of takeing them.
As a Evoker I got a lot of use out of empower and quicken.
actualy if the wizard didn't get any bonus spells from int he/she wouldn't even be able to cast his/her level 2 spell. Poor wizard.
Your 2nd level spells are "throw dagger", "shoot crossbow" and "make sandwiches". Woohoo!
As a Evoker I got a lot of use out of empower and quicken.Wizards get all the Metea Magic feats but its hard for them to use them becous they must prepare them that way. Extend is the only one thay get a lot of use out of. where as a Sorcerer dose not get as meny meta magic feats but get much more use out of takeing them.
And could read "As a spell caster I get a lot of use out of empower and quicken"
Your forgetting to take into the fact especially with the outsiders that they almost always hate to be summoned. The dm I play with would make us rue the day if we summoned a fiend. The fiend would find ways to twist the instructions thus being more trouble than its worth and of course take vengence at a later date. But yeah I see the awesomness of what the summoned creatures can do, just it has to be done with extreme caution.
Now that's just sad and wrong.
Does this DM also make your Magic Mmissiles hit you and your friends some of the time? Make your Mage Armor occasionally subtract from your AC just for the heck of it? Do your Fireballs sometimes bounce off of the foes and fly back to incinerate you and your group? Do you ever cast Hold Person and end up targetting your allies by mistake? Do your Mirror Images all stand around pointing at you and directing your enemy's attacks?
If not, why does he pick on one group of spells and ruin their usefulness to the point that no sane player would ever consider using them in this fashion, without also ruining other groups of spells in similar fashion.
And if he does, then you may need a new DM...
Your forgetting to take into the fact especially with the outsiders that they almost always hate to be summoned. The dm I play with would make us rue the day if we summoned a fiend. The fiend would find ways to twist the instructions thus being more trouble than its worth and of course take vengence at a later date. But yeah I see the awesomness of what the summoned creatures can do, just it has to be done with extreme caution.Now that's just sad and wrong.
Does this DM also make your Magic Mmissiles hit you and your friends some of the time? Make your Mage Armor occasionally subtract from your AC just for the heck of it? Do your Fireballs sometimes bounce off of the foes and fly back to incinerate you and your group? Do you ever cast Hold Person and end up targetting your allies by mistake? Do your Mirror Images all stand around pointing at you and directing your enemy's attacks?
I don't know, I think it's kind of cool. If you are a good character or neutral player summoning a fiend and make it act against it's nature I can totally see an (intelligent) summoned creature twisting your intent as much as it can. It's a long tradition of binding creatures to your will. I could likewise see good creatures working against an evil caster that summons them.
No, it is isn't RAW, but it's an interesting and fun variation. Unfortunately summons spells under 3.5 are so weak it's kind of nerfing an already weak spell which is kind of a poor idea. If I were to do this I would probably balance it by making aligned summons slightly more powerful.
And if he does, then you may need a new DM...
To me, as long as the game is fun I don't care how many weird house rules he piles on. Some of the best GMs I've had have tons of house rules or just wing it half the time. Granted, it's not fun to have your character concept nerfed by a malicious GM, but I think it's a little silly to talk about changing DMs because of one house ruling about a spell.
In addition the dm also had this notion that summoned creatures do nt forget who summoned and for what purpose. The fiends are not a very forgiving lot and have years to plot how to...
In our game players also wind up summoning individual (named) creatures also, makes it kind of fun. We even had stat blocks for specific creatures so there was a little variety even within a summoned type. We never really dealt with intelligent summoned creatures though, that adds a whole new element and makes them less of 'disposable' creatures and more into planar allies that the character enjoys interacting with or challenges them in the case of opposed creatures.
actualy if the wizard didn't get any bonus spells from int he/she wouldn't even be able to cast his/her level 2 spell. Poor wizard.Your 2nd level spells are "throw dagger", "shoot crossbow" and "make sandwiches". Woohoo!
...don't have enough skill points to make a sandwich. I didn't put any points in profession cook.
...don't have enough skill points to make a sandwich. I didn't put any points in profession cook.actualy if the wizard didn't get any bonus spells from int he/she wouldn't even be able to cast his/her level 2 spell. Poor wizard.Your 2nd level spells are "throw dagger", "shoot crossbow" and "make sandwiches". Woohoo!
Of course not since you only have 2 skillpoints per level you put them all into Perform (Self Deprication)
I've always liked the fact that the sorcerer doesn't need anything but 8 hours of rest. He's completely self-reliant.
Sorcerers still need a bag full of bull poo, bat poo, fox poo, eagle poo, owl poo, glowing moss, tiny tarts, ghoul fingerbones, miniature brass trumpets, rotten eggs, and rakshasa eyelashes.
I've always liked the fact that the sorcerer doesn't need anything but 8 hours of rest. He's completely self-reliant.Sorcerers still need a bag full of bull poo, bat poo, fox poo, eagle poo, owl poo, glowing moss, tiny tarts, ghoul fingerbones, miniature brass trumpets, rotten eggs, and rakshasa eyelashes.
No, Pathfinder sorcerers get Eschew Materials for free.
No, Pathfinder sorcerers get Eschew Materials for free.I've always liked the fact that the sorcerer doesn't need anything but 8 hours of rest. He's completely self-reliant.Sorcerers still need a bag full of bull poo, bat poo, fox poo, eagle poo, owl poo, glowing moss, tiny tarts, ghoul fingerbones, miniature brass trumpets, rotten eggs, and rakshasa eyelashes.
If it works the same as 3.5 Eschew Materials expensive components (like for stoneskin) you still have to provide.
If it works the same as 3.5 Eschew Materials expensive components (like for stoneskin) you still have to provide.
Sorcerers still need a bag full of bull poo, bat poo, fox poo, eagle poo, owl poo, glowing moss, tiny tarts, ghoul fingerbones, miniature brass trumpets, rotten eggs, and rakshasa eyelashes.
Yes, but none of the components he listed are expensive components.
Eschew materials for free? D'oh!
How expensive are the eyelashes of rakshasas and basilisks?
Do your Mirror Images all stand around pointing at you and directing your enemy's attacks?
You just gave me an awesome idea for a new spell.
Yes, but none of the components he listed are expensive components.
I don't know. According to Ace Venture, bat poo is a 50 million dollar a year business.
You probably can tell I'm also on the fence about choosing between those two for an upcoming AP... My dilemma is probably a good sign about balance..?
DW
Indeed. A good sign of balance indeed.
Nice point :)
I still think the (well played) wizard has the edge in power.
For flavor and RP reasons I don't get a big kick out of playing wizards. I don't care for the book keeping and I always found it hard to RP someone with an Int in the 20's. It frustrates me to overlook some tiny but key bit of minutia, then argue with the DM that the danged wizard has a 22 int not me and they wouldn't have forgotten it.
Some times after a hard week I just want to kill something, have some beer and blow off steam.
In any case it seems like the sorcerer is notably less sub optimal now which I'm happy to see.
Back in 3.5 on the most boards there was a high level of agreement that the 3.5 sorcerer was a distant second.
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Wizards win in terms of utility and flexibility, whereas Sorcerers win through the sheer number of spells. However, Wizards can easily bridge this gap through the implementation of magic item creation, which they'll be more readily suited to than Sorcerers due to the bonus feats they gain.
I'm personally more of a fan of Wizards, simply because they gain access to higher level spells earlier and there's usually no need to be packing the number of spells that a Sorcerer has. In most games I've played under 3.5 we've rarely had more than one combat encounter per adventuring day (granted, the DM has made up for this by making the combat encounters slightly tougher), so Wizards have rarely had the opportunity to blast away with all of their spells.
By the way, don't take magic missile. It's a trap. ;)
By the way, don't take magic missile. It's a trap. ;)
No way! Okay in practice I'm almost wholesale against wizards using damaging spells, but Magic Missile is a pretty solid spell at low levels as a backup and it's iconic. If you're a wizard then it doesn't hurt to have one memorized, and if you're a sorcerer you can always swap it out.
In my current wizard, MM is the only damage spell I have in my spellbook besides cantrips.