Apologies if this has been talked to death while I was elsewhere, but I don't see anything about it on the forums... I just now got around to downloading the teaser for the first two pages of the Races section, and unless there's more on the next page, dwarves don't appear to have a favored class.
I don't think I mind. :)
Apologies if this has been talked to death while I was elsewhere, but I don't see anything about it on the forums... I just now got around to downloading the teaser for the first two pages of the Races section, and unless there's more on the next page, dwarves don't appear to have a favored class.
I don't think I mind. :)
*chuckles*
There was much debate on that but, as previously, all races will pick one favored class of their choice at first level. Half-elves will get to pick two. Anything past that is speculation at this point (this was confirmed at the PaizoCon preview banquet).
Humans will have all classes favoured? That's a very interesting turn=-around for the books.
Director of Brand Strategy
|
Humans will have all classes favoured? That's a very interesting turn=-around for the books.
Everyone will have all classes favored. Each specific character will have only one, though, chosen at first level, unless that character is a half-elf, in which case they will have two. Humans have always been able to choose their favored class, so I don't know how big a change that is from the Beta or standard 3.5.
I understand why they made the change, but I preferred when races all had their own favored classes. It's a flavor thing for me.
Also, I think I read that all races now get to add +2 to whatever stat they want instead of the set +2 / -2 they had before. I hope this information is incorrect. I don't like it when games become to generic, these changes seem subtle but change the flavor of the game, for me at least.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
Also, I think I read that all races now get to add +2 to whatever stat they want instead of the set +2 / -2 they had before. I hope this information is incorrect. I don't like it when games become to generic, these changes seem subtle but change the flavor of the game, for me at least.
I believe only humans, half-elves and half-orcs have this selectable +2 bonus to any stat.
I believe only humans, half-elves and half-orcs have this selectable +2 bonus to any stat.Also, I think I read that all races now get to add +2 to whatever stat they want instead of the set +2 / -2 they had before. I hope this information is incorrect. I don't like it when games become to generic, these changes seem subtle but change the flavor of the game, for me at least.
I am pretty sure half-orcs do not get to, however all of the races were reworked to have a net +2 to stats. For example; instead of dwarves having +2 con, and -2 chr, in PFRPG they now have +2 con, +2 wis, and -2 cha.
I am pretty sure half-orcs do not get to, however all of the races were reworked to have a net +2 to stats. For example; instead of dwarves having +2 con, and -2 chr, in PFRPG they now have +2 con, +2 wis, and -2 cha.I believe only humans, half-elves and half-orcs have this selectable +2 bonus to any stat.Also, I think I read that all races now get to add +2 to whatever stat they want instead of the set +2 / -2 they had before. I hope this information is incorrect. I don't like it when games become to generic, these changes seem subtle but change the flavor of the game, for me at least.
I think yoda is right it was brought up somewhere paizocon maybe that half orcs are now in line with half elves
I understand why they made the change, but I preferred when races all had their own favored classes. It's a flavor thing for me.
Attribute adjustments create pretty strong race-class affinities already. An extra carrot-and-stick aren't necessary IMO.
Favored class as a race-independent character decision is a little more interesting. Still, the fetish for pre-building a character's progression to 20 before it even sees play is something I spend untold hours training my players away from, and the new favored class mechanic works strongly against me in that regard. I was going to just toss it so far as beta rules were concerned, but "half elves get two" makes that a potential balance concern now. :(
Half-orks getting a floating-good-stat is a nice idea, tho.
I don't like the new favoured class rule. It adds no flavour. All it does is power to single-classed characters.
I don't like the new favoured class rule. It adds no flavour. All it does is power to single-classed characters.
I happen to think this is a good thing.
What do you actually get for staying in your favored class now? Is it just that you don't get an exp penalty? I saw somewhere I think that the extra skill point thing was removed.
I don't like the new favoured class rule. It adds no flavour. All it does is power to single-classed characters.
...who hardly needed the boost, yeah. Still, my bigger problem with it is the "choose at 1st level and then you're stuck with it" mechanic. This is a purely metagame consideration which outright damages the ability of characters to adjust to the world and what's happened to them, rather than vice versa. (Yes, race is the same way; but race has meaningful fluff. This is all crunch, and was only halfway forgivable when duct-taped to race... which it no longer is.)
It's only a tiny conceptual jump from there to, "Look man, where's my merciful axiomatic tonfa? My entire character concept revolves around it, I've been building for this since level 1. Not letting me have it is a total jackass thing to do."
Edit:
What do you actually get for staying in your favored class now? Is it just that you don't get an exp penalty? I saw somewhere I think that the extra skill point thing was removed.
Still hit points, I assume? Also, optimal progression in the first place. Base classes are really good now, if you hadn't noticed; pulling away to do something else, no matter the level, is already a balanced trade-off from the looks of things.
Half-orks getting a floating-good-stat is a nice idea, tho.As Jason said at PaizoCon, "they are half human, after all," and this and the half-elf's +2 stat bump are a nice way to show that humanity.
And my argument would be that are also half-orc. It is the name of the race after all.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
And my argument would be that are also half-orc. It is the name of the race after all.Half-orks getting a floating-good-stat is a nice idea, tho.As Jason said at PaizoCon, "they are half human, after all," and this and the half-elf's +2 stat bump are a nice way to show that humanity.
Right. Thus they don't get all the human racial benefits, like bonus feat and extra skill point per level. They get their own, orc-influenced abilities, like orc ferocity, darkvision and all that.
What do you actually get for staying in your favored class now? Is it just that you don't get an exp penalty? I saw somewhere I think that the extra skill point thing was removed.Still hit points, I assume? Also, optimal progression in the first place. Base classes are really good now, if you hadn't noticed; pulling away to do something else, no matter the level, is already a balanced trade-off from the looks of things.
The previews have shown that Favored class still provides a choice of hit points or skill points (though I don't believe we've seen them split up, for the record).
Multi-classing XP penalties have been gone since Alpha 1.0
Multi-classing XP penalties have been gone since Alpha 1.0
And this part, I'm thoroughly in favor of. :)
I never met a player or DM from 3.0 onward that actually used the xp penalty rule.
Ok... let me see if I have this straight.
All races get to pick their favored class. Half-elves are an exception to this in that they get to pick two.
Are there any special rules for humans? Their ability to pick their favored class was one of the biggest advantages to being human. It helped to represent their "masters of everything and nothing" concept.
I've got no real problem with other races being able to do the same thing now, I guess. But humans should get something more to compensate. With half-elves getting two favored classes now they seem, well, more human than human.
more human than human.
So half-elves are one of my favorite White Zombie songs?
more human than human.So half-elves are one of my favorite White Zombie songs?
Yeah, I couldn't help but to hum a few bars myself while typing. But pun unintended, none the less.
And my question remains...
|
I don't like the new favoured class rule. It adds no flavour. All it does is power to single-classed characters.
It doesn't add much flavor no but I won't rule out the fact it might add it to others. Also this DOES help (even a little bit) a 1st level character or even a 2nd level character have a little more HP. I've found my players surviving or staying up on their feet due to 1 hp fairly often at lower levels.
All that said, I was a much bigger fan of completely getting rid of Favored Classes all together. I never liked the concept behind it and I still don't. If a race is better at or more prone to one class over another, then fine but I've just never been a fan of it.
|
|
Ok... let me see if I have this straight.
All races get to pick their favored class. Half-elves are an exception to this in that they get to pick two.
Are there any special rules for humans? Their ability to pick their favored class was one of the biggest advantages to being human. It helped to represent their "masters of everything and nothing" concept.
I've got no real problem with other races being able to do the same thing now, I guess. But humans should get something more to compensate. With half-elves getting two favored classes now they seem, well, more human than human.
I think they still get a free feat. They might also still get skill point bonus but I can't be certain of this yet.
Still, a free feat is nothing to shy from. I'd personally rather have THAT then a second favored class. Heck use it on toughness and you're already better off then a second favored class.
Screw humanity. As a Half-orc, I am not pleased at all with this crap. >.<
Well, as a half-orc, no one cares what you like or not! :P
I don't like the new favoured class rule. It adds no flavour. All it does is power to single-classed characters.I happen to think this is a good thing.
They got plenty of boosts. More nice higher-level abilities mean you miss out more when you have lower levels in several classes. PF made multiclassing even less powerful than before.
What do you actually get for staying in your favored class now? Is it just that you don't get an exp penalty? I saw somewhere I think that the extra skill point thing was removed.
XP penalties are gone, anyway. Not just for favoured classes, for everything.
And I think the beta rules have made it to the final game. Meaning that for every level in your favoured class, you either get an extra skill point or an extra hit point.
And that doesn't make sense to me. The rule basically says that if you don't multiclass, you get more HP/XP than you should. Because you have your favourite class. But everyone has his favourite class, and it can be anything. So basically, everyone is just stronger now. No reason, no rhyme. No flavour.
Favored classes were an element of mechanical idiocy ("Let's intentionally enforce stereotypes that are already mechanically optimal") which we tolerated because of the flavor they brought with them.
The mechanical silliness has been minimized, which I would be thankful for, except that all the racial flavor is now gone.
No reason is left for this rule to exist.
I'm gonna eat your face, boy.Screw humanity. As a Half-orc, I am not pleased at all with this crap. >.<Well, as a half-orc, no one cares what you like or not! :P
I'm going to use your face to help Fozan climb the cliff.
|
Favored classes were an element of mechanical idiocy ("Let's intentionally enforce stereotypes that are already mechanically optimal") which we tolerated because of the flavor they brought with them.
The mechanical silliness has been minimized, which I would be thankful for, except that all the racial flavor is now gone.
No reason is left for this rule to exist.
I agree with you. I for one almost never actually played a races favoured class. Except when I played a human, but he didn't live long.
I'll play halfling druids, venerable half-orc wizards, elven barbarians, etc. I understand the whole racial flavor a fav class brings with it, I just chose to go in the opposite direction. I would be more afraid of a half-orc archmage than I would an elven archmage.And when my halfling (beta)druid got a +20 to ranged touch attack while a bat(not a dire bat) and could then wild shape into a T-rex? >:)
I don't care if favs stay or go, because I usually ignore them.
|
I understand why they made the change, but I preferred when races all had their own favored classes. It's a flavor thing for me.
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree... it feels a bit weird if you can pick wizard for your dwarf or fighter for your halfling. I think this could have been done via traits or feats, i.e. "add/switch a favored class".
The way I see it, this change benefits powergamers first and foremost, and removes some of the racial flavor in the rules. It *does* make a more varied range of characters more appealing to play (dwarven wizards and halfling fighters, like I mentioned), but I fear it will be easily abused to get you the right race/class "combo" for a certain overpowered build (note: if you don't allow any 3E books, this problem will likely be nonexistent -- at least for now).
I understand why they made the change, but I preferred when races all had their own favored classes. It's a flavor thing for me.
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree... it feels a bit weird if you can pick wizard for your dwarf or fighter for your halfling. I think this could have been done via traits or feats, i.e. "add/switch a favored class".
The way I see it, this change benefits powergamers first and foremost, and removes some of the racial flavor in the rules. It *does* make a more varied range of characters more appealing to play (dwarven wizards and halfling fighters, like I mentioned), but I fear it will be easily abused to get you the right race/class "combo" for a certain overpowered build (note: if you don't allow any 3E books, this problem will likely be nonexistent -- at least for now).
This is a misconception about multiclassing. Honestly, I think its kind of a knee-jerk reaction ("Let any race take any class and there's no telling what will happen! It's madness!!").
It isn't nearly as bad as it sounds, chiefly because a race's favored class is usually the class for which it is optimal anyway.
Also, this is the first time that "favored class" rules have EVER affected single-classed characters. In 3.0 you can play a halfling anything, or a halfing anything/rogue, at no penalty. It was multiclassed characters who were affected, and this actually does more to prohibit multiclassing than the old rules did (which is the main reason that I'm unhappy with it).
|
|
From what I understand, (and this always seemded a bit flawed to me because I think Favored Class was confirmed to be out with the Dwarf preview) is that they would have the choice of FC between a few options. For Example, an Elf could have their choice of FC from Bard, Wizards, or Ranger. Something along those lines. I'm right there with you that Favored Class is undesirable. Working much better as an optional rule so the people that do want the extra powernudge can take it.
I want to say Half-Orcs get Barbarian & either Cleric or Druid.
Halflings get Rogue + either Ranger or Sorcerer
|
|
I understand why they made the change, but I preferred when races all had their own favored classes. It's a flavor thing for me.
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree... it feels a bit weird if you can pick wizard for your dwarf or fighter for your halfling. I think this could have been done via traits or feats, i.e. "add/switch a favored class".
The way I see it, this change benefits powergamers first and foremost, and removes some of the racial flavor in the rules. It *does* make a more varied range of characters more appealing to play (dwarven wizards and halfling fighters, like I mentioned), but I fear it will be easily abused to get you the right race/class "combo" for a certain overpowered build (note: if you don't allow any 3E books, this problem will likely be nonexistent -- at least for now).
This is a misconception about multiclassing. Honestly, I think its kind of a knee-jerk reaction ("Let any race take any class and there's no telling what will happen! It's madness!!").
It isn't nearly as bad as it sounds, chiefly because a race's favored class is usually the class for which it is optimal anyway.
Also, this is the first time that "favored class" rules have EVER affected single-classed characters. In 3.0 you can play a halfling anything, or a halfing anything/rogue, at no penalty. It was multiclassed characters who were affected, and this actually does more to prohibit multiclassing than the old rules did (which is the main reason that I'm unhappy with it).
In 3E, I could make really sick dwarven cleric builds using a couple of WoTC splatbooks (builds that consistently inflict about 50+ points of damage with non-crit attacks). Likewise, if I could pick paladin as a favored class for a halfling, I could have +20 in every saving throw by 15th level (if not even sooner). Now, if you don't allow any 3E splats, this "tweak" actually does what you say, i.e. it encourages singleclassing while making multiclassing less desirable (which in my books is a good thing).
However, if you *do* use 3E splats, you're effectively giving powergamers (who often multiclass into several core and prestige classes) a "freebie" benefit in letting them select their "main" class. This is because that +1 to HPs (which is what this sort of players would most often choose) is a minor benefit (or loss) in regards to letting them "optimize" the synergy between the race and all the "required" classes for their dream build.
Anyway, that's just my opinion, but I know a group of powergamers (who I occasionally game with) who will be leaping with joy at this change.
they think it's a "minor benefit (or loss)", yet they're leaping for joy?
combinations of various optional splat-books under 3.5 could easily combine for extremely unbalanced outcomes... and that may continue to be the case under PRPG?
seriously, the rule-tards who drool over their next splat-book opening the uber-build can shrill in glee or howl in outrage whether or not something "increases their power", I think PRPG will be doing just fine as a framework for the "games we like to play", to paraphrase Jason and the folks at Paizo.
You're talking about level 15 and 20 builds. Do you understand what a tiny effect your racial modifiers have at that point?
If a halfling can get +20 to all saves, then any other race could still get +19. I don't think allowing the halfling to do it is what's breaking the game.
He's talking about the torrent of WotC splat-books that include everything from Race-restricted Feats to Racial Class Variants, Domains, and the like. Those scale at those levels, or this type of player wouldn't be interested in them when more "optimal choices" are available.
Of course, if one is OK playing with THAT optional material, there's no real reason you couldn't also play with the optional house-rule opening all those options to EVERY race and character. But I think part of the schtick of the rules-tard set is WotC's "seal of approval" on these product (AS IF their output was remotely consistent/balanced) is the key, since "if it's OFFICIAL WotC material, it's AUTOMATICALLY legit to use".
I'm having trouble seeing how a feat would, say, be available to a dwarf X, and powerful for a dwarf Y.
I was actually about to include that as a caveat (i.e, "The exception is when something has a racial prerequisite and is balance on the assumption that that race faces multiclassing restrictions").
Then I started groping for an example, and the best I could come up with was "a feat that's available to dwarf wizards but is very powerful when used by dwarf rogues, which would be broken if used by an unrestricted dwarf wizard/rogue".
Then I stopped, and asked myself, "Is there anything that works like that?"
Granted, I'm not very well-read in terms of WOTC material. Just the same, I'm curious now; does anyone have an example of a race-specific power which become broken if you allow unlimited multiclassing?
I'm having a hard time picturing it, especially since multiclassing limits never had any effects on prestige classes, but I could be wrong.
|
|
Probably not what you are talking about, but Weapon Focus: Ray, Ranged Spell Specilization, Empower Spell (or any similar feat), Improved Crit: ray + sneak attack for a Wizard/Rogue is a lot more powerful than it is for a Rogue, or a Wizard. Halfling makes it that much more so with small size, and sometimes +1 to attack.
("Let's intentionally enforce stereotypes that are already mechanically optimal")
There were both favored classes that were decidedly non-optimal (example: gnomes -- really? what, exactly makes bards a good choice for gnomes, mechanically speaking?) and non-favored classes that were decidedly optimal (example: dwarven barbarians were better than half-orc ones, even though dwarves had fighter for a favored class and h-o's had barbarian) in 3.5.
several paragraphs of vitriol
Christ man, do you need a hug?
what, exactly makes bards a good choice for gnomes, mechanically speaking?)
Bonus to illusion DCs.
They make much better illusionists than bards, though (especially with the con boost). I wish their favored class was still wizard, but I understand why the change was made.dwarven barbarians were better than half-orc ones
Debatable, at best. +2 strength kicks ass for barbarians; if you're going for a strength-based build, you want to pile it on. I'll grant that +2 con has good synergy with the class (compared to other classes), but dwarf movement doesn't mesh with barbarian fast movement (you can either wear light and move at 30 or wear heavy and move at 20; same as a human fighter).
I think a dwarf barbarian is just as good as a half-orc barbarian or a dwarf fighter. I think it would be a stretch to say they're clearly better, though.
There were both favored classes that were decidedly non-optimal ... and non-favored classes that were decidedly optimal
Oh, absolutely. :)
I might have used elf for both examples, but I wouldn't say that your favored class is always THE CLASS for your race, especially once we start talking about non-core.It does tend to be the best choice (or one of a few best-choices) most of the time, though.
several paragraphs of vitriolChrist man, do you need a hug?
Also, while I probably wouldn't have used the term "rules-tard" myself, I'm still not sure that was necessary.
|
I'm going to use your face to help Fozan climb the cliff.I'm gonna eat your face, boy.Screw humanity. As a Half-orc, I am not pleased at all with this crap. >.<Well, as a half-orc, no one cares what you like or not! :P
I'm afraid I missed a vital piece of information needed to make sense of this wit. :-/
i.e. Huh?
I like favored classes. I have no problem embracing racial stereotypes. I also have no problem with breaking typical stereotypes, because it makes interesting characters at the cost of a small bit of 'power'. Without favored classes everything is just, 'meh'.
It's not a huge deal, really. But in my personal PF campaign I will likely houserule Favored Classes back to the Beta version. I may do the same for Half-orc racial bonuses.
|
("Let's intentionally enforce stereotypes that are already mechanically optimal")There were both favored classes that were decidedly non-optimal (example: gnomes -- really? what, exactly makes bards a good choice for gnomes, mechanically speaking?) and non-favored classes that were decidedly optimal (example: dwarven barbarians were better than half-orc ones, even though dwarves had fighter for a favored class and h-o's had barbarian) in 3.5.
Wha! Why you... Who you callin a ho?