|
Hello all. I personally found the revised assassin of Pathfinder kind of weak; even to the extent of not even being better than the 3.5 Assassin (despite that rogues /are/ definitely better than in 3.5).
So, I was thinking of giving the class an easy,plain and quick upgrade for in my game.
Assassin
As written in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, with the following changes:
*Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier
Evasion: an assassin gains the evasion ability at level 2.
Every two levels(2,4,6,8,10), an assassin may pick an assassin talent. The following talents are available:
Bleeding Attack(as Rogue)
Combat Trick(as Rogue)
Fast Stealth(as Rogue)
Ledge Walker(as Rogue)
Quick Disable(as Rogue)
Slow Reactions(as Rogue)
Surprise Attacks(as Rogue)
Bonus Metapoison Feat
Obviously, the list could be expanded to have actual assassin only talents...but that's not why I'm posting. For the record, Metapoison feats are from Poisoncraft:The Dark Art accessory(and work mostly the way you'd expect). I also considered giving them Crippling Strike at some point, but thought that might be a bit too much.
Thoughts? Is it good right now, still too weak or even overpowered?
I assume your goal is to make assassins competitive with rogues?
Why evasion at 2nd level? Won't most everyone going into the assassin PrC already have evasion?
What role do you see assassins filling in your game that rogues do not?
I know a lot of people disliked assassins having spells, and that's OK, but without them I seriously don't see the need for a prestige class at all now. It seems to me that if we just introduced a few new rogue talents:
Regular talents - hide in plain sight, hidden weapons, poison use;
Advanced talents - death attack, quiet death, swift death;
Then the entire assassin "prestige class" would be thereby neatly subsumed into the core rogue (except for a few random save bonuses against poison). I have to admit that, to me, it seems more than a trifle clunky to introduce an entire prestige class whose "class features" are mechanically nothing more than a few new rogue talents.
|
|
I assume your goal is to make assassins competitive with rogues?
I suppose you could say that, as the default pathfinder rogue is more capable on average than the default pathfinder assassin; even in his own field.
Why evasion at 2nd level? Won't most everyone going into the assassin PrC already have evasion?
Certainly, I imagine most would already have evasion in the first place. However, in the case of fighters and rangers(for instance), it's a nice extra.
What role do you see assassins filling in your game that rogues do not?
Nothing is preventing rogues from copying assassins really. But overall; assassins specialise in murder, where as rogues are less specialised and more rounded.
I know a lot of people disliked assassins having spells, and that's OK, but without them I seriously don't see the need for a prestige class at all now. It seems to me that if we just introduced a few new rogue talents:
Regular talents - hide in plain sight, hidden weapons, poison use;
Advanced talents - death attack, quiet death, swift death;Then the entire assassin "prestige class" would be thereby neatly subsumed into the core rogue (except for a few random save bonuses against poison). I have to admit that, to me, it seems more than a trifle clunky to introduce an entire prestige class whose "class features" are mechanically nothing more than a few new rogue talents.
Perhaps; just as Shadowdancers mostly could be subsumed into the core rogue as well. But I have no desire to do either. I want to keep them as Prestige Classes; one of my reasons being that taking PrC's tends to work better than just multi-classing.
|
|
Well my experience with having a player doing a Monk/assassin in my second darkness campaign showed that an assassin simply works better if you give them spells. (Yes I know a lot of people would prefer a spell/less assassin but doing that your better off just doing a rogue) Also if they do end up giving assassins a bunch of supernatural abilities to keep people dead and such then they probably would have been just as well keeping the spells.
I agree that assassins are suboptimal compared to rogues.
I see no problem with 6 skill points per level, and talents. You might even consider a list of bonus feats.
I'm not trying to bag on assassins or your idea, but I have always just used rogues for assassins because they are just better at it, especially now that assassins have lost their spells. Maybe some kind of non detection class ability would work. I have a hard time seeing a use for non spell casting assassins in my game beyond a 1 level dip.
Are you looking for a setting specific role, of are you just trying to have a generic mechanic for a hired stealthy killer?
EDIT: Dohp! Ninja'ed!
Assassin is a great class, but is a bit less powered then some the other, even core, PrCs. The biggest complaint I can come up with is their spell list. Even though most assassins would probably come from Rogue, I think they should have a +1 spell caster feature, instead of their own list. Just put a caveat for rogues that don't have a spell list to keep getting their special abilities every even level, or give them access to the old assassin spell list instead.
Well my experience with having a player doing a Monk/assassin in my second darkness campaign showed that an assassin simply works better if you give them spells. (Yes I know a lot of people would prefer a spell/less assassin but doing that your better off just doing a rogue) Also if they do end up giving assassins a bunch of supernatural abilities to keep people dead and such then they probably would have been just as well keeping the spells.
That's the problem with anecdotal evidence, in my experience assassins with decent class abilities do substantially better than those with spells. Granted, having access to magical effects is good; but UMD is fine for that.
|
|
Are you looking for a setting specific role, of are you just trying to have a generic mechanic for a hired stealthy killer?
Just a generic professional killer PrC, nothing campaign specific. The campaign will take place in Golarion and thus there's already the Red Mantis Assassin PrC too. Incidently, this also gives me another argument why I don't want to have the regular assassin to have spells; else it would be too similiar to the Red Mantis assassin.
I wouldn't mind seeing six or seven different variants on an assassin. Different methods, etc. I say variants because if I suggest PrClasses, I suspect I'd be lynched by the, "barbarians, rangers, and paladins are just fighters," crowd.
|
|
I wouldn't mind seeing six or seven different variants on an assassin. Different methods, etc. I say variants because if I suggest PrClasses, I suspect I'd be lynched by the, "barbarians, rangers, and paladins are just fighters," crowd.
Pretty much agreed; there are a lot of potential assassin types, especially in DND. Snipers, poisoners, stranglers, arcane, divine(...Black Flame Zealot was rather cool thematically), ''brute force''...the list goes on and on. I don't think it's really possible to get it all into on one Prestige Class and that your best off looking at the ''regular'' assassin as a sort of generalist.
I wouldn't mind seeing six or seven different variants on an assassin.
D&D already has 10. I'm not counting the Paladin because that one doesn't quite work out.
Just a generic professional killer PrC, nothing campaign specific. The campaign will take place in Golarion and thus there's already the Red Mantis Assassin PrC too. Incidently, this also gives me another argument why I don't want to have the regular assassin to have spells; else it would be too similiar to the Red Mantis assassin.
I'll be honest, partly the reason why I feel the assassin needs spells is because otherwise, they feel just too much like rogues to me.
Take a rogue, give him the poison use varient from the PF campaign book and it's identical to the Beta PF assassin, with the exception of the assassin's ability to death attack (An ability which I personally feel is pretty underwhelming and not likely to see much use in any game. This is speaking from my experience actually playing one, in which I think I only ever used it once IG, and even then, we were stretching the rules just a little when determining the 3-round study rule).
Giving them spells, in my honest opinion, makes them far more distinct from rogues, which is somthing I feel might be more importent since there is talk of assassins possibly gaining rogue talents as well.
Besides, why should the Red Mantis Assassins be the only magical assassins around? Rival order's can exist, and well...simply put the Assassin Prestige class was around long before the Red Mantis on, so if only one is chosen to fill that niche I'd rather it was the Assassin PRC. Not everyone who wants to be a magical assassin is going to want a mantis motif.
|
IMO the class could work fine with out spells, is just about seeing the spots to make it fit, take this as an example: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1054326, take a good look and make up your mind,IMO the work of this guy is really a good point of view, I'm still studing this proposals to make one good solid assessin class without spells. take you chances and let mi know.
Take a rogue, give him the poison use varient from the PF campaign book and it's identical to the Beta PF assassin, with the exception of the assassin's ability to death attack (An ability which I personally feel is pretty underwhelming and not likely to see much use in any game.
Like I said upthread, just make hidden weapons a rogue talent, make death attack, quiet death, and still death advanced rogue talents -- and you can eliminate the entire "assassin" prestige class as presented.
|
Well, it's in the SRD and the Beta, so I wouldn't get rid of it. It just needs some more good abilities or spells that help him do his job. Kill something quick and then get away. Maybe something as simple as doubling his sneak attack dice versus flat-footed opponents as a standard action would do. He should be much better at killing than the rogue, while the rogue is better at more general rogue stuff such as picking pockets and locks, and disarming traps.
If they ditched the spells on the Assassin, a good substitute would be something similar to the Complete Adventurer's Ninja class abilities that allow him to turn invisible, incorporeal and perhaps some short range dimension door action except more Pathfindery. The Assassin didn't really need a spell list but he certainly needs a way to stand behind someone, unnoticed for three rounds without chugging a potion of invisibility every time he wants to attempt it.
Worse yet, if he does try this under normal conditions, a DC 20 Spot check will notice him. Then all you have to do walk around for a while and he can't Death Attack you. Heck, you could even tease him by standing in one place for 15 seconds and then walk away, stop again and keep doing that...until he gets frustrated and just plain Sneak Attacks you. :)
I could care less if it is balanced with other PrCs since it's one that a PC will never be unless you're playing an evil campaign.