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This topic caught my eye today. I did my own 3.5 write-up of the Witch as a PC class a few years ago. Having a copy of the Quintessential Witch, GR's Witch, and the Witch presented as a full class in Open World Press/Mytsic Eye's "World of Whitethorn", I did a lot of cross referencing and comparisons. When the Spell Compendium was released at the time, I was very happy to see a variety of "Witch-flavoured" spells to add to the mix...
There was much agonizing over selecting the details of this class. I wanted to stay away from the Wiccan paradigm as much as possible -- high fantasy witch was the way to go - but I tried to keep out most of the flashy/brainy wizard material.
My 3.5 Witch is/was a spontaneous arcane caster, with some metamagic feats earlier than when wizards gain them, 4 skill points per level, spells a mix of arcane and druid, and a limited shapeshifting ability. Bonus feats include Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment).
I designed her to cause a lot of trouble while skillfully avoiding melee and opponents equipped with ranged weapons...
While I don't have the time to post the whole class I did, here's the spell list! :-)
0-level Witch Spells (Hexes)
Cure Minor Wounds
Dancing Lights
Daze OR Bewitch* OR Daydream**
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Ghost Sound
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Open/Close OR Spoil Food & Water*
Prestidigitation
Purify Food & Water
Read Magic
1st-level Witch Spells
Cause Fear
Charm Person
Command OR Daze Monster
Comprehend Languages
Cure Light Wounds
Disguise Self
Endure Elements
Entangle
Faerie Fire
Hypnotism
Identify
Magic Fang
Magic Weapon
Obscuring Mist OR Updraft [SC]
Remove Fear
Silent Image
Sleep
Speak with animals
Talons [DL] OR Mage Hand, Greater [SC] OR Peacebond [Cityscape]
Unseen Servant
Ventriloquism
Whelm [PH II]
2nd-level Witch Spells
Alter Self
Animalistic Power [PH II]
Augury
Binding Winds [SC] OR Electric Vengeance [PH II]
Black Karma Curse [PH II]
Blindness/Deafness
Cat’s Grace OR Eagle’s Splendor OR Fox’s Cunning OR Owl’s Wisdom
Darkness OR Enhance Familiar***
Delay Poison
Detect Thoughts
Enthrall
Familiar Pocket [SC]
Hold Animal
Invisibility
Linked Perception [PH II]
Locate Object
Minor Image
Scare
See Invisibility
Shroud of Undeath [SC]
Summon Swarm
Veil of Shadow [SC]
Whelming Blast [PH II]
Whispering Wind
3rd-level Witch Spells
Bestow Curse
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Contagion
Cure Moderate Wounds
Deep Slumber
Dispel Magic
Fly OR Enlarge Familiar***
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Magic Circle against Chaos (or Magic Circle against Law or Magic Circle against Evil or Magic Circle against Good; must learn each separately)
Magic Fang, Greater
Magic Weapon, Greater
Major Image
Phantom Steed OR Legion of Sentinels [PH II]
Rage OR Beguile*
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Curse
Suggestion
Tongues
Treeshape OR Share Animal’s Mind [DL]
Whelm, Mass [PH II]
4th-level Witch Spells
Arcane Sight
Charm Monster
Crushing Despair
Divination
Fear
Geas, Lesser
Giant Vermin OR Summon Pest Swarm [Cityscape]
Good Hope
Hallucinatory Terrain
Locate Creature
Invisibility, Greater
Minor Creation
Mystic Surge [PH II]
Neutralize Poison
Poison
Polymorph
Remove Disease
Scrying
Sending
Trollshape [PH II]
5th-level Witch Spells
Baleful Polymorph
Break Enchantment
Contact Other Plane
Dominate Person OR Eternal Charm Person***
Dream
False Vision
Feeblemind
Greater Command
Hidden Lodge [SC]
Hold Monster
Insect Plague
Magic Jar
Major Creation
Mind Fog OR Eternal Sleep***
Mirage Arcana
Nightmare
Seeming
Telepathic Bond
True Seeing
Waves of Fatigue
6th-level Witch Spells
Animate Objects
Cone of Cold
Control Weather
Cure Light Wounds, Mass
Dispel Magic, Greater
Eyebite
Find the Path
Geas/Quest
Greater Scrying
Legend Lore
Mass Suggestion
Mislead
Overwhelm [PH II]
Probe Thoughts [SC]
Project Image
Repulsion
Shadow Walk
Wall of Thorns
7th-level Witch Spells
Animalistic Power, Greater [PH II]
Arcane Sight, Greater
Creeping Doom
Finger of Death
Harm
Hiss of Sleep [SC] OR Eternal Charm Monster***
Hold Person, Mass
Insanity
Limited wish
Liveoak
Mass Invisibility
Repel Wood
Transport via Plants
Veil
Vision
8th-level Witch Spells
Antipathy
Bestow Greater Curse [DL]
Demand
Discern Location
Heal
Horrid Wilting
Incendiary Cloud
Mass Charm Monster
Mind Blank
Polymorph any Object
Screen
Sympathy
Trap the Soul
Wave of Destruction**
9th-level Witch Spells (13 spells!)
Dominate Monster
Foresight
Gate OR Call the Wild Hunt***
Hold Monster, Mass
Invisibility, Superior [SC]
Power Word, Kill
Refuge
Shapechange OR Dragonshape [PH II]
Summon Golem [PH II]
Veil of Undeath [SC]
Wail of the Banshee
Weird
Wish
*: New spell from World of Whitethorn setting.
**: New spell from Kingdoms of Kalamar setting.
***: New spell from The Witch’s Handbook.
[DL]: New spell from Dragonlance Campaign Setting.
If any spell is unavailable, then replace that missing information with the spell cited after “OR”. Those spells cited as alternatives to be decided upon at the time of character creation as adjudicated by the DM.
The additional official D&D source books with spells for the Witch are the Spell Compendium [SC], Cityscape, and the more recent Player’s Handbook II [PH II].
When creating a spell list it is hard to "get it right" because of the subjective flavour aspect. I chose most spells by instinct for what I thought would conceptually "fit" my idea of the high fantasy witch. I know that some spells aren't OGL for a PFRPG Witch, but I'm just showing what I did for my 3.5 gaming.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Witch Armor Class...
Another option is to give them no armor defense spells but give them a bonus to AC equal to their Charisma bonus, sort of like the monk. This option sounds sexy (metaphorically speaking) but might be unbalanced.
A third option is to give them nothing--after all, they need some weakness in light of their benefits. I don't like this option so much.
Thoughts?
Rather than shield/armor bonuses, maybe a combination of luck bonuses to AC or a 'luck aura' that gives luck penalties to attack.
Another option might be a weak deflection bonus elemental based. kind of like the Druid's 'wind armor' in Diablo.
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Witch Armor Class... Thoughts?
I agree the witch should have low armour class, as per previous incarnations of the class, and in keeping in line with sorcerers and wizards.
I also agree that common wizard responses to armour class, namely shield and mage armour, don't really fit the witch theme.
I'd take a close look at things that do fit the witch theme, like pacts with otherworldly beings, demons, ghosts, faeries, and their retreat/hiding from civilisation (the desire to remain "unseen").
I think a couple of spells, similar in power to shield or mage armour, but with differently effects and appropriately themed, and perhaps looking at other creatures for inspiration ...
For example, some kind of spell or ability that allows the witch to step across the boundaries between this world and the other; something that pulls the darkness around them; something that uses the elements to protect them, like being surrounded by a whirlwind; or hex opponents, clouding their minds so the witch appears unseen to them, something like an "invisibility to undead" effect, but on a single living opponent? - eg, some kind of side-step, phase or darkness spell or ability that increases their armour class, provides cover or a miss chance?
Something mecahnically different than a +4 to AC would be nice.
Witch Armor Class...
Looking at various instances of the witch, I see that witches tend to have poor armor class. I mean really poor with some exceptions.
Here's what the other classes have.
- Wizard and Sorcerer: The mage armor and shield spells feel inappropriate... these spells are inspired by battle. Wizards will usually have one of these and sorcerers may or may not.
- Cleric: Cleric armor spells are weak but clerics already wear armor.
- Druids: They have barkskin as a 2nd-level spell and not much else, but they wear armor.
One option is to give witches the cleric defensive spells or something similar. Maybe give them sanctuary plus a protective amulet spell that grants a bonus to AC similar in progression to shield of faith. This might be the more reasonable choice.
Another option is to give them no armor defense spells but give them a bonus to AC equal to their Charisma bonus, sort of like the monk. This option sounds sexy (metaphorically speaking) but might be unbalanced.
A third option is to give them nothing--after all, they need some weakness in light of their benefits. I don't like this option so much.
Thoughts?
I actually brought this up earlier and have been thinking about it for a little bit. My original idea was adding WIS modifier to AC the same way as the Monk does. You definitely do not want to make the classes dump stat the source of its AC bonus and yeah, mage armor just doesn't seem right.
My personal vote on this though is to intentionally leave the Witch insanely vulnerable to physical attack. Meaning: no good AC boosting spells or at least none that last very long and don't slowly scale like Mage Armor. This made my idea for the Lucky special ability which boosts all of her saving throws up fit even more perfectly IMO. She would be very easy to assult physically but she would be a lot more resistant to magic. I'm almost tempted to change Lucky to a Divine Grace type ability but using WIS instead of CHA.
As for the debate about closed spell list vs. limited by school so that splat book and 3rd party spells can be incorperated. I'd say that this depends on what actually happens with the class.
If it never goes any further than this thread then it's fine to just give a general guideline on what spells apply. This is going to have to be a common sense approach as opposed to a strict guildeline though. It wouldn't make any sense for a Witch to not have access to Light and Darkness spells even though they are mostly Evocation. I'm sure that there's other spells in allowed schools that wouldn't make sense to have access to. If the class is unofficial by any source book or magazine then I have no problem just saying that any spells that makes sense is allowed and vise versa at the DM discretion.
If it were made official in some way then you'd probably have to define the exact spell list. The approach used by the Beguiler and Warmage would work well for this, I'd think. She'd probably have a spell list very similar to the Beguiler, in fact. It's probably make a good base. Then there is always that Advanced Learning that allows you to add some extra spells that aren't on your spell list. Those could be bundled in with the whole Coven flavoring.
One last thing before I go. From reading some of the posts, there may be a misconception of what I imagined for Fate Points and Fate Powers. It's not just about relabling Curse so that a good Witch can perform the opposite effect on her ally and thus needs renamed Fortune in this instance. This is actually one effect of this but I imagine it being more like a Barding Music type ability and the main ability of the class. These powers would be acquired as the Witch levels up and would serve many uses similar to Bardic Music. Spending a Fate Point could have any one of the possible effects if the Witch is high enough level to use it.
- Possible Examples:
- Grants a luck bonus to one attack, skill check or saving throw equal to her CHA modifier (could also be WIS or 1/2 level)
- Force an opponent to reroll an attack, skill check or saving throw if they fail their save (DC 10 + 1/2 LVL + CHA modifier)
- Allow an ally to reroll...
- Reverse a harmful spell effect cast on you (like slow or even finger of death) by causing it to take effect on the one who cast it on you if they fail a save.
- Steal a helpful spell effect (like heal) from it's intended target as an immediate action. The spell must be cast within 30ft of your current location and the original subject of the spell may attempt a save to avoid the effects.
- You may force the caster of a damage dealing spell (like fireball) to reroll the damage. They may attempt a save if they wish.
- Grant all allies the choice to reroll their initiative.
- Stun opponent until right before your initiative next round.
These mostly affect probability and tie into the luck/fortune aspect of the class. This, I feel, would be the reason for the class to exist as opposed to it just being some tweener class that doesn't really excel at anything. I've seen some PrCs that have used this idea but I haven't come across any base classes like it yet and I think the Witch is perfect for it. Without something different that makes the class stand on it's own, you might as well just make as a modified Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock or whatever.
I get the impression that no one really understood where I was going with the the Fate special ability especially since no one offered up any ideas for Fate Powers yet. Please, more ideas here would be welcome.
Also, I've thought about the Witch creating potions higher than 3rd level a little bit more. I don't think it should be a class feature but I feel that her (and only her) potion brewing ability should be modifiable in this area through feats. Something like Superior Brew Potion (4th) or maybe (4th and 5th) would be a better route to take IMO. Otherwise, this would be a pretty powerful class ability. I'd want her to have to spend a good number of feat in order to special all the way in this. Note this doesn't have anything to due with the Cauldren Brewing special ability that is being talked about. This is simply brewing poitions above the usual level cap of 3rd level.
Okay, yes, I sort of missed this before. On the one hand I like the flexibility it gives; on the other hand, it feels more tactical than I imagine the witch to be. I bet we could create a sorcerer bloodline or something similar that works off of fate points.
Be careful. You don't want to make the class all style and no substance. The Witch needs something to do besides forcing her friends to stay up late every night performing rituals and lugging around a large bubbling cauldren around with her in order to brew a potion that works a little better. I know, I'm exagerating here but a Witch class is going to need a good number of options in order to put her on the same level as the rest of the base classes.
The ultimate goal is to create a class that you can play several different ways with several different builds. A base class goes sour if there is only one way to play it. When this happens, it should probably just be a PrC and lowered to ten levels. A base class also needs something different to seperate it from other base classes and not just be a tweener class that combines other class's features together. I feel that it needs a different mechanic like this to stand on it's own and feel different from just playing a Sorcerer or Druid that is themed as a Witch.
Edit: On 2nd thought, I think a Fateweaver PrC along these lines would be perfect, especially if it had relatively low-level entry.
Yeah, I mentioned that there are a few PrCs that utilize this Fate/Fortune idea and it's one that I'm fond of. I think that this would be perfect to build a base class around since I don't think that it has been done before...and the Witch is the perfect concept to build it around.
I hope this tread isn't dead yet. Its been on my mind for two weeks now, I'm working on a updated newer version of the witch and have gain new respect for game desingers.
In any case while working on the class and looking at this tread for insperation I think I see a fatal flaw in non core class making we've fallen into.
We tend to custom make/adopt or otherwise fit a Witch concept into an existing class features (ie hag bloodline), or a class that really fits only a setting (S.B.A. anyone) or we create a class that narrowlly fits our concept of what a Witch is or should be (ie its a Druid but cast arcane and is more em witchy). Instead I trying to do something that actaully adds the class to core. I think thats why its taking so long for me to come up with something, well that and a lot of family issues right now, not to mention my real job this is a hobby after all.
In any case a Spell list remains, for me, a critical issue. I do like the spell list offered here, and I've some other good ones, but really most tend to still fall into arcane or divine.
Hexing/blessing I'm keeping but I have no intrest in expanding that power too far as I don't want it to 'replace' spells.
I'll keep anyone instrested posted, I hope there are still poeple intrested.
TTFN DRE
Glad you chimed in. I though I killed this thread. :)
True, the Witch is a difficult concept to nail down. Mine is closest to the Druid class (traditional) but others will be thinking more Halloweenish. It's probably why WoC left it alone except for the example of an alternate spell list and for PrCs which can represent the multiple flavors of the Witch.
I have thrown out all of the ideas that I can think of for the moment. Since no one is really hip on the Fate class feature and building her around the idea of manipulating probabilities, I'll take my leave of this one. I hope others will keep the ideas coming though. I'm sure there's still some good ones that haven't come out yet.
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I think I see a fatal flaw in non core class making we've fallen into.
We tend to custom make/adopt or otherwise fit a Witch concept into an existing class features (ie hag bloodline), or a class that really fits only a setting (S.B.A. anyone) or we create a class that narrowlly fits our concept of what a Witch is or should be (ie its a Druid but cast arcane and is more em witchy). Instead I trying to do something that actaully adds the class to core. I think thats why its taking so long for me to come up with something, well that and a lot of family issues right now, not to mention my real job this is a hobby after all.
In any case a Spell list remains, for me, a critical issue. I do like the spell list offered here, and I've some other good ones, but really most tend to still fall into arcane or divine.
Hexing/blessing I'm keeping but I have no intrest in expanding that power too far as I don't want it to 'replace' spells.
There are two ways to approach a new Core class:
1) use existing Core classes as a baseline - using existing mechanics enusres it plays well with other systems within the game;
2) contributing something entirely new to expand character concepts/options.
Examples of 1) are arcane classes drawing from a common spell list.
Examples of 2) are psionics, or perhaps moreso Warlock powers.
Both approaches have their merits.
1) I'd like a Witch that built on things I'm already familiar with. Eg, why learn a whole new system just to play a differently flavoured Wizard? And why can a Wizard benefit from new spells in future Pathfinder sourcebooks, but my Witch can't?
2) On the other-hand, if you're going to present a new base class, it does need it's own schtick to differentiate it from existing base classes. Some players have played the current core classes to death and are looking for something new and interesting. Introducing a new system, like Warlock powers, could be worthwhile if it's popular and expands the core rules in a way that future classes, sourcebooks and other companies may be inspired to pick up and run with continued support.
Hedgewitch
Alignment: Non-evil.
BAB: +1/2 (as wizard)
Good Saves: Fortitude and Will
Hit Dice: 1d8
Class Skills: Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal,
Knowledge (arcana, history, local, nature, religion), Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Survival, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier
Hedgewitches are proficient in all Simple Weapons. They are
proficient in Light Armor but not with Shields.
LEVEL ABILTIY
1. Healing Touch 1, Least Invocations
2. Healing Touch 1d3, Detect Magic
3. Create Potions
4. DR 1/-
5. Healing Touch 1d4
6. Lesser Invocations
7. DR 2/-
8. Healing Touch 1d6
9. Energy Resistance 5
10. DR 3/-
11. Healing Touch 1d8, Greater Invocations
12. Medicinal Mastery
13. DR 4/-
14. Healing Touch 1d10
15.
16. DR 5/-, True Invocations
17. Healing Touch 1d12
18. Energy Resistance 10
19. DR 6/-
20. Healing Touch 1d20
Healing Touch (Sp). As a standard action, the hedgewitch can attempt
to heal damage. The hedgewitch must touch the recipient and make a
DC 20 Heal check. If successful, the hedgewitch restores the amount
of damage listed based on her level.
Invocations (Sp). The hedgewitch learns a few spell-like abilities
as she grows in power. At 1st level, she knows 1 invocation. She
learns an additional invocation at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15,
16, 18, and 20. Beginning at level 6, she can choose to learn Lesser
Invocations; at level 11 she can learn Greater Invocations; and at
level 16 she can learn True Invocations.
Detect Magic (Sp). The hedgewitch can use Detect Magic at will.
Create Potions (Ex) Beginning at level 3, the hedgewitch can make
healing potions. She can make a potion that duplicates the effect of
a Conjuration (healing) spell. The spell level must be less than or
equal to half her class level. Creating a potion takes 1 day and
requires a successful Profession (herbalist) skill check with a DC of
20 + the spell level + minimum caster level of the spell.
Damage Reduction (Ex). Beginning at 4th level, the hedgewitch can
resist physical attacks. She gains DR 1/- at 4th level, and it
increases by 1 for every 3 additional levels gained.
Energy Resistance (Ex). At 9th level, the hedgewitch chooses two
types of energy (acid, cold, electrical, fire, or sonic). She gains
resistance 5 against those 2 energy types. At level 18, the
resistance increases to 10.
Medicinal Mastery (Ex). At 12th level, the hedgewitch becomes so
confident in her ability to perform her tasks that she can always
choose to take 10 in a number of class skills equal to 3 + her
Intelligence modifier, even if distractions or circumstances would
not allow this.
Invocations.
Invocations are spell-like abilities the hedgewitch can use at will
as a standard action. Unless otherwise noted, they have a duration
of 24 hours. Some invocations affect her Healing Touch ability and
either alter the area of effect or add an additional benefit to the
Healing Touch ability. Invocations have an equivalent spell level
equal to 1/2 the hedgewitch's class level. The save DC is 10 + 1/2
the hedgewitch's class level + her Charisma modifier.
Least Invocations:
Baleful Entanglement (as the Entanglement spell, plus those in the
area of effect are sickened until they escape and for 1 minute
thereafter)
Lifeguard (Deathwatch + Shield Other)
Healing Ray (by succeeding on a Ranged Touch attack, the hedgewitch
can affect a target within 60 feet with her Healing Touch ability)
Medicinal Touch (add the hedgewitch's Wisdom bonus to her Healing Touches)
Refreshing Touch (the hedgewitch's Healing Touch also removes the
Fatigued and Sickened Conditions, as well as 1 point of Ability
Damage or Penalty)
Safe Passage (the hedgewitch grants herself or one ally she touches
the benefits of the Pass without Trace spell and the Sanctuary spell.
It only affects 1 creature at a time)
Saving Grace (the hedgewitch grants herself or one ally she touches a
bonus on a single type of Saving Throw equal to her Charisma bonus
(but not more than her class level). It only affects 1 creature at a
time)
Lesser Invocations
Cleanse the Blood (the hedgewitch's Healing Touch also removes any
Disease or Poison from the target)
Clear the Senses (the hedgewitch's Healing Touch also removes any
Blindness, Deafness, Confusion, Dazed, Dazzled, Paralysis, or Stunned
effects from the target)
Consume Magic (as Dispel Magic + subject heals 2 hp per spell level dispelled)
Healing Line (the hedgewitch affects all targets within a 60 foot
line with her Healing Touch)
Illuminate (Daylight + Invisiblity Purge)
Lesser Vigor (as the spell)
Peaceful Light (Calm Emotions + Faerie Fire)
Renewal (the hedgewitch's Healing Touch removes Exhaustion,
Nauseated, 1 Negative Level, and 1 point of permanent Ability Drain)
Secret Garden (Create Food & Water + Rope Trick + Nondetection)
Whispers (Silence + hedgewitch gains benefits of Divination spell)
Greater Invocations:
Devour Magic (as Warlock invocation)
Healing Cone (the hedgewitch's Healing Touch affects all targets
within a 30 foot cone)
Hidden Health (Death Ward + False Life)
Thornshape (as Tree Shape spell + class-based DR is x2, gain Fast
Healing 5, and opponents attack with non-reach melee weapons or
natural attacks take 1d6 + 1 point of damage per class level of
piercing damage from thorns)
Uncoil (Atonement + Break Enchantment + Raise Dead with DC 40 Heal check)
Vigor (as spell)
True Invocations:
Garden of Delights (Heroes' Feast + Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion)
Greater Vigor (as spell)
Healing Circle (Healing Touch affects all within 20 feet)
Holy Ground (in 20 foot radius around hedgewitch are the benefits of
Hallow and Holy Aura)
True Life (Greater Restoration + Regeneration & True Resurrection
with DC 40 Heal check)
Hedgewitch
Am I missing something, or does your witch lack any offensive powers whatsoever? I'm not sure many players would be willing to play a class without any combat ability.
Am I missing something, or does your witch lack any offensive powers whatsoever? I'm not sure many players would be willing to play a class without any combat ability.Hedgewitch
They lack direct-damage attacks, but have some offensive invocations, like the one that entangles and sickens.
But you're right. For the most part it's a support class. They DO get simple weapons and light armor, and decent hit points, but their BAB is poor.
It might need some added oomph, like curses or something.
Despite the fact that it kind of goes against a true witches beliefs, I couldn't resist the flavor of making her choose between cure spells (thus no damage dealing spells whatsoever) and inflict spells (no healing whatsoever).
Some work was also done towards this end here.