I say yes. I don't know about others, but I'm giving my high elves a Charisma bonus and my rock gnomes an Intelligence bonus and Wisdom penalty.
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Based on the description of each (and their portrayal in literature), wouldn't it make more sense to give the Elf a Charisma bonus (and Sorceror Favored Class) and the Gnome an Intelligence bonus (and Wizard Favored Class)?
Yup. Elves seem to make perfect Bards, actually. Some melee skills, some innate magical skills, some superhuman artistic skills.
Of the core races, Humans and Dwarves seem the ones most likely to delve into wizardry. Elves and Gnomes seem more innately magical, and thus, sorcerous, while Halflings and Half-Orcs don't seem to associate as well with either branch...
It would make for an interesting tweak to a setting assumption for magic to have originally been primarily sorcerous, with elves and gnomes (and dragons) being the arcanists of times past. And then came the dwarves and their runes, codifying and analyzing the sorcery of the old age, sullying it with their calculations and their scribbling, in the eyes of the sorcerous races, but opening up the practice of wizardry. The old-blooded sorcerers would have held them in contempt, and called them 'hedge wizards,' scoffing at how those of 'lesser blood' aped and pawed and studied until their eyes bled to understand the arts that came so naturally as part of their birthright.
But times have changed, and schools of wizardry have formed into guilds, that regulate and control most civilized manifestations of magic, leaving the sorcerers out in the cold, too proud to form into guilds, since they never needed to train with each other or share lore or coordinate their apprenticeships the way wizards did, and failed to realize the political and social power that came with alliances and organization...
The sorcerers, primarily elven and gnomish, may have had grand dynasties of power handed down through blood in the age before, but now that the dwarven and human and halfling wizards have unionized, there's no stopping them!
Paraphrasing Elves of Golarion here, but why would any elf make so foolish a choice as to develop an innate magical skill to cast a paltry number of spells when they literally have centuries to study and master hundreds of spells.
You'll have Jason pulling his hair out!
Sorry I'm new here. Is Jason on the production staff?
You'll have Jason pulling his hair out!
Jason is a guy who acts like he knows what is going to be in the upcoming releases. Nobody could know that, though!
"Elves have hundreds of years to study" and "elves just do magic naturally" both make perfect sense.
However, elves are (sometimes strongly) associated with wizardry in many existing game worlds, if only because elves have been in the game longer than sorcerers have. There's also something to be said for the "elves are wizards, dragons are sorcerers" dychotomy (in settings which pit the two against eachother in the distant past, like Faerun).
To complicate the matter, I've always felt they needed a wisdom boost. Any race that begins aventuring at age 100, really, but especially elves.
+int/-wis is a very popular houserule for tinker-gnomes (I've used it myself in some games), but I appreciate Pathfinder's fairy-gnomes just as much. I only wish they didn't look so much like halflings on paper.
I don't agree that elves need to have a +2 it Chr. Elves have never really been one of the friendly out going races. They think a lot of the time they are better than everyone else. Int works fine because as posted above elves have always been wizards.
I don't agree that elves need to have a +2 it Chr. Elves have never really been one of the friendly out going races. They think a lot of the time they are better than everyone else. Int works fine because as posted above elves have always been wizards.
Charismatic doesn't necessarily mean nice. And I disagree that they aren't outgoing. They're plenty sociable, they're just arrogant sometimes.
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Well, basing things on portrayal in literature is quite a thorny issue. For instance in a lot of fiction elves seem to be fundamentally 'better' than humans. Smarter, more graceful, wiser, better looking, holding inate magical talent and so on and so forth. I'd certainly find it difficult to argue that tolkien elves are very well represented by D&D, they just don't seem powerful enough next to humans.
Urgh, yeah, the further Pathfinder steers away from Our Elves Are Better and Can't Argue With Elves the better. Those two tropes are the primary reason why elves catch so much flak from some corners.
I do like that Golarion's elves are clearly flawed and lack the inherent moral superiority they've been given over other races in some other settings. One of their good gods is still a damn racist though. Findeladlara can bite me.
Charismatic doesn't necessarily mean nice. And I disagree that they aren't outgoing. They're plenty sociable, they're just arrogant sometimes.
friendly isn't nice in it's self. I wouldn't call them plenty sciable. They are not known for partying. They tend to live in a forest and can be xenophobic to outsiders. I find it much more likely for a gnome to more accepted by people than an elf faster because gnomes are a much more jolly race. bah who knows if I make any sence I am half asleep anyway. In the end I think int works much better for elves and chr works much better for gnomes.
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Well, I for one, have no problem with the rules for elves and gnomes.
Remember, we are playing D&D, or Pathfinder. Not actually playing Lord of the Rings. There is a ruleset for that.
These are elves and gnomes of Pathfinder, slightly different from the elves and gnomes of D&D, and different from the elves and gnomes of LOTR. If you want to replicate the elves of LOTR, by all means make the adjustments, and I think that flavor would be fantastic.
I also enjoy the flavor embraced by Paizo. I LIKE the fact that elves in Golarion are untrustworthy and tainted and paranoid. That is so cool. I like the fact that gnomes are almost immortal alien creatures banished from their realm.
I like the flavor given to dwarves and orcs as well. Now, we just need something for the halflings that is NOT based upon Hobbits.
Ditto.
Tolkien's elves were beautiful and kind, as well as masters of the spoken word, but the elves of the following decades have taken a turn towards haughtiness, condescension, and a cultural introversion which isn't quite xenophobic.
Which isn't to say that we're beholden to genre fiction any more than to Tolkien himself here, but but it is a measure of what your fans are likely to find palatable. I think there is a strong precidence for giving them ANY mental boost and it's really just a matter of what works best for your world.
Maybe we should jump on this as a chance to better define elven subraces? Elves with int penalties to balance higher str/con scores never really sat well with me.
Charismatic doesn't necessarily mean nice. And I disagree that they aren't outgoing. They're plenty sociable, they're just arrogant sometimes.friendly isn't nice in it's self. I wouldn't call them plenty sciable. They are not known for partying. They tend to live in a forest and can be xenophobic to outsiders. I find it much more likely for a gnome to more accepted by people than an elf faster because gnomes are a much more jolly race. bah who knows if I make any sence I am half asleep anyway. In the end I think int works much better for elves and chr works much better for gnomes.
Elves not known for partying? The 1st Edition DMG says otherwise, "They concern themselves with the natural beauty around them, dancing and frolicking, playing and singing unless necessity dictates otherwise." Now I concern myself with high elves, rather than other varieties, whom I see as having a rather forceful personality. Wood elves, on the other hand would have a bonus to Wisdom, and grey elves a bonus to intelligence. Charisma doesn't necessarily have anything to do with personality. For instance Hitler would have a high Charisma. Several fiends have high Charisma.
Nearly constantly throughout literature Elves are described long lived and have trouble understanding and integrating with the shorter lived races. Elves disdain haste and prefer measured judgement and the longer view. The power of the Elves comes from their long experience and opportunity to practice.
That does not sound like a Sorcerer it does sound very much like a Wizard.
Elves are not prone to passion and they are unlikely to cultivate a class preference based on passions and haste and manipulation of magic through sheer force of personality over a class based on understanding derived from hard earned experience and practice.
On the other hand, Gnomes are always likable. They are always cheery. They should have a high charisma.
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If we want to get into origins, Tolkien based his elves quite closely on the Sidhe of Celtic myths to my understanding. The Sidhe were known, amongst other things, for stealing human babies and replacing them with fey known as changelings.
Therefore elves should have Rogue as their favoured class. ;)
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Nearly constantly throughout literature ... Elves disdain haste and prefer measured judgement and the longer view.
I think you'll get some argument there. There is an archetype of elves that frolic and drink and lead mortal man to their doom. But I guess it depends how you make the elf/fey distinction in literature.
Personally, I would not agree that it is nearly a constant throughout literature as you discribed.
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Because they are frivolous and carefree....because they do magic as much for fun as for anything else. They are more akin to the gods...who just DO magic. Studying is for others. Elves frolick and commune with nature. They meditate and drink enchanted mead in the glade and are glad.
They know of the ancient and the flower that has just bloomed this morning. They are, in effect, a contradiction. Old, but young. Serious, but mirthful. Powerful, yet gentle.
This alone should give them the Cha bonus...if you really feel strongly about having them use Wizard as a favored class, fine! But of any race, they should have the Cha bonus....not gnomes.
Well said.
Why not have it both ways, have a subrace of Elf, I forget which is older Grey or High, but lets say High Elves favor Sorcery because they were the first race of Elves and Grey Elves, who now dominate the race prefer Wizardy because they've had the benifit of thousands of years of accumulated lore?
As for Gnomes I kinda like their fey nature, but like Goblins in my game their is the core race and what I call Steam Gnomes & Steam Goblins who's favored class is Tinker, All of this taken from WoWC RPG, updating to Pathfinder is very easy, Tinker was always slightly stronger then 3.5 core classes. In my game Lore Steam Gnomes just like technology, but also making up for thier part in a Wizard war that cursed technology. With new Pathfinder lore I've added that Steam Gnomes long ago abandoned their fey nature. As for Goblins well that all started when a lawful human empire began to enslave goblins, instead of whole sale slaughter. Oddly only after a few generations, which for Goblins is twice as fast as human generations, not only did they become more intelligent they embraced technology and all the danger associated with it and more importantly merchant capitalism, before you say it yeah think ST Fergi.
Anyways long and short of it is they system allows for modifing race to your liking/lore and still keep published core race. If your asking Paizo to change the core concept this late in development, well I doubt if that'll happen.
TTFN DRE
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I tend to think of the Elf = Wizard thing as a holdover from earlier editions of D&D.
Once 3.0 came out, with Dwarves equally able to be Wizards, and the invention of the Sorcerer class, I feel that the 'fluff' better suits Elven Sorcerers (and Rangers, Druids and Bards, especially), and Dwarven Wizards (and Paladins, Fighters and Clerics).
I really think that Elves got Wizards as a Favored Class in 3.0 out of nostalgia, not any sort of representation of their fluff or lore. Elves are creative, artistic and whimsical, creatures of chaos, while dwarves are careful and meticulous masters of rote and tradition, hidebound by law.
The hyper-lawful organized, traditional city-fied elves of the Realms (and the even more uber-lawful elves of Spelljammer) are completely antithetical to the elves of every single edition of D&D, who are *chaotic.* Any single elf might be a wizard, and elven libraries might indeed by truly ancient, but elves, as depicted in the fluff, have always felt more innately magical 'fire in the blood' sorts than studious bookish glasses-wearing tower-dwellers.
Urgh, yeah, the further Pathfinder steers away from Our Elves Are Better and Can't Argue With Elves the better. Those two tropes are the primary reason why elves catch so much flak from some corners.
If only they had fixed the dwarves, too.
I actually do what the OP suggested for my homebrew game, as it suits my own fluff better. I am not sure about Golarion (I'm a weirdo who's delved into the Pathfinder rules but not read a smidge of the setting material) or tradition in general.
I'd certainly love to see the change official for my own selfish purposes, but as a homebrew switch it's fairly easy to compensate for and do on one's own.
