So I was making a gelatinous cube Sorcerer (the "brain cube" mentioned in Dungeon Denizens Revisited), and the description mentioned that such cubes can only cast spells with somatic components by using Still Spell. That got me thinking.
What sort of creatures can actually make the gestures for somatic spells? Can a roper wizard wave its tentacles? How about an awakened octopus druid? Shouldn't somatic components be dependent on the form of the caster, rather than just assuming that "only creatures with human-like hands can use them", which seems to be the current stance?
We just used a variant of Natural Spell for non humanoid or non draconic casters, but you're right. It does seem to impose an arbitrary penalty.
Funny, I actually started doing the exact same thing; it's while I was making such a feat that I thought "wait, why should non-humanoids need a feat to cast somatic spells?", and thus this thread was born.
Seldriss wrote:
I just try to imagine the faces of my players if i throw a gelatinous cube sorcerer at them :D
Here she is, help yourself. I've done her stats using a hybrid of Pathfinder Beta and the snippets of PFRPG info we have (she'll be fully PFRPG when those rules are out). She has a whole backstory, but it's specific to my campaign so I doubt anyone cares.
With no further ado...
Spoiler:
Nemphre
Female Brain Cube; CR 13
CE Large Ooze
HD: 13D10+91 (167 hp)
Init: +0
Speed: 15 ft.
Senses: Blindsight 60 ft., blind; Perception -1
AC: 5, touch 5, flat-footed 5
(-1 size, -4 Dex)
Immune: Electricity, ooze traits
Base Attack: +9; CMB: +10; CMD: 16
Melee: Slam +8 (1D6 plus 1D6 acid plus paralysis)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Acid, paralysis, engulf
Special Abilities: Cantrips, metamagic adept 2/day
Special Qualities: Transparent, sorcerer, bloodline arcana, arcane bond (familiar)
Fort: +11, Ref: +0, Will: +9
Str: 10, Dex: 3, Con: 24, Int: 12, Wis: 8, Cha: 18
-Sorcerer: Nemphre was a sorcerer with the arcane bloodline before her transformation into a brain cube, and she has gained a number of benefits as a result. Unlike a normal ooze, Nemphre has a good Will saving throw. She has also gained bonus spells as if she were an 11th-level sorcerer with the arcane bloodline, including wall of ice, which was acquired through the new arcana class feature. Lastly, Nemphre has class skills as if she were a sorcerer--Knowledge (dungeoneering) is her additional bloodline class skill.
In the game world? Creatures with weird appendages usually have spell-like abilities, which have no components. Spellcasting was invented by creatures with hands (yes, I picture dragons as having very agile foreclaws) and therefor caters to them.
You need hands to cast spells. It's not supposed to be fair. =p
Out of character? An execute-somatic-and-verbal-components-by-jiggling feat is the farthest I'd go; I certainly wouldn't make them prepare stilled or silent spells.
Really, it isn't a balance issue so much as one of gameworld consistancy. Your players may say "Hey, wait a minute. If she can cast spells without hands then why can't I?" Your players take basic rules like that to be facts of the game world, and you can't just brush them asside without some rational.
For my own part, I would probably use psion (or wilder) rather than sorcerer for a gelantenous cube and thus not have to worry about it. But hey, it's your badguy. n_n
In the game world? Creatures with weird appendages usually have spell-like abilities, which have no components. Spellcasting was invented by creatures with hands (yes, I picture dragons as having very agile foreclaws) and therefor caters to them.
You need hands to cast spells. It's not supposed to be fair. =p
See, I disagree with you there. D&D is filled with non-humanoid casters; you need only look at the MM entry for aboleth to see that. The beholder mage is another staple. Indeed, the aberrations book Lords of Madness has this to say about beholders: "A normal beholder can become a wizard or sorcerer... Nevertheless, two practical limitations keep beholders from becoming spellcasters. First, their lack of hands makes it hard for them to use large numbers of spell components. Second, their central eye’s antimagic cone makes the study and use of arcane magic difficult." There's no suggestion that beholders can't pull off somatic components.
Heck, even in Golarion aboleths are credited with being some of the earliest users of magic. So I'm afraid that no, you really don't need hands to cast spells.
So I'm afraid that no, you really don't need hands to cast spells.
Perhaps I should have said "you need prehensile appendages which would normally allow you to hold objects" (I think this is a good definition for the "free hand" referenced in the "magic" chapter). Dragons have claws, and aboleths have tentacles. But I digress.
Your first post presumed a straightforward interpretation of the rules for spellcasting ("A somatic component is a measured and
precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one
hand free to provide a somatic component."). You asked why (within this framework) gellatenous cubes shouldn't be able to perform somatic components, and I answered your question.
If you've changed these rules (or even just interpreted them differently) in order to be consistant with your world, that's perfectly fine. I'm not going to argue with how your game works.
But I do wonder what exactly you were looking for when you made this thread.
If you've changed these rules (or even just interpreted them differently) in order to be consistant with your world, that's perfectly fine. I'm not going to argue with how your game works.
But I do wonder what exactly you were looking for when you made this thread.
Sorry if I came off as brusk; your response seemed a little dismissive. My bad.
And clarifying the meaning of "hand" is pretty important as well. I'd again look to the beholder though; eyestalks seem a pretty poor substitute for appendages, but I suppose they are better than a single homogonous mound of goo.
As for the thread itself, I wanted to see how other people handled this situation and what they thought. Again, sorry if I was overly aggresive in defending my point.
Argh! You asked for it. I had intended to make her backstory shorter, but when I start writing I have trouble stopping.
Spoiler:
Born to a wealthy family known for producing wizards, Nemphre was twice-cursed; her body was wracked with an incurable palsy, and at an early age she began to display sorcererous potential. Her parents tried to tutor her in "proper" arcane arts, but to no avail. Though a bright girl, Nemphre lacked any real talent for wizardry. And while her family was never unkind to her, and tried to accept her sorcerous nature, she knew that she did not belong.
As a young woman, Nemphre yearned to explore the fantastic world that she had read so much about in her family's library. Alas, her palsy kept these dreams forever out of reach. She began to search for ways to transcend her physical limitations through magic, but was repulsed by the thought of becoming an undead abomination. Nemphre wished only to augment her body enough to lead a normal life, not to live forever as a gods-cursed monster. She eventually hit on an idea while watching her brother experiment on an ooze creature. Here was an animal that seemingly lacked physical limitations, for such was its simplicity that it could have no fault. Despite its hideous appearance, if Nemphre could somehow infuse her form with an ooze's resilience, she may yet be free of her disability.
Nemphre immersed herself in study. Years passed, and her obsession grew. She eventually came upon the writings of a fellow sorcerer known as Orlok, "the Hunched Lord", a cruel arcanist of great power who had theorized a process similar to Nemphre's own. Convinced that she may have at last found what she was looking for, Nemphre left her home to seek out the Orlok's fortress. The journey was a taxing one, taking many months and pushing the woman to her physical limits, though ultimately she was successful. Orlok was sufficiently impressed with Nemphre, granting her a position in his organization and giving her the tools she needed to pursue her quest. Nemphre was particularly delighted when she learned of the Twilight Garden, a cavernous network beneath her new master's castle that overflowed with all manner of protoplasmic lifeforms. Between this near-endless supply of oozes, and the extensive laboratories as her disposal, she was sure that her work would soon be complete.
When the time came to put theory into practice, Nemphre called for Orlok to witness her transformation. She had secured a gelatinous cube with the intent of siphoning its physical structure into her own, hoping to be fortified and stabilized by the process forever after. She completed the final step of her grand experiment, and with that, Nemphre's life as a woman was over. Something had gone terribly wrong, and upon regaining consciousness, she found that her mind and soul had somehow been transfered to the gelatinous cube's body. What was once her mortal shell had been reduced to dust. And looking on, with the slightest hint of a smile, was the Hunched Lord. Though he hadn't known exactly what would happen to Nemphre, he did expect that the result would not be as she intended.
Orlok assured his former student that all would be well, that he would seek some way to reverse the awful transformation. Until that day came, though, she could find refuge among the slime-infested passages of the Twilight Garden. For months Nemphre held out hope that her master would find a cure. He visited her occasionally on his strolls through the alien wilderness that had become her home, always offering soothing words and vague promises, though in reality he had come to appreciate the sorceress's new form. Orlok's garden had gained a capable caretaker and protector, and he had no desire to lose such an interesting pet.
Nemphre's last shreds of sanity have long-since slipped away. She now believes that she was never a human, that her memories of a past life are merely bad dreams or hallucinations, and that her true place is among her own kind. The Twilight Garden is her kingdom. Its mindless inhabitants, her children and subjects. She knows that there is a world beyond the twisting passages of her realm, one bathed in sun and open to a terrible sky above, and has become intensely agoraphobic as a result. The thought of such a place fills her with loathing. Nemphre also despises all non-ooze life, with two important exceptions. The first, her familiar, is a pitiable ooze mephit named Ilkris that does his best to fulfill his mistress's desires. Nemphre rarely wastes the effort to establish a "telepathic bond" with him, so Ilkris must do his best to interpret her empathic urges instead. He fails as often as not. Nemphre also still sees Orlok as her master, and in the warped recesses of her mind, she remains his loyal student.
Almost nothing remains of the woman that Nemphre once was. Her thoughts wander, and she has little perception of time. Her days are spent meandering through the Twilight Garden, endlessly searching for intruders while playing mother to her mindless kin.
She now believes that she was never a human, that her memories of a past life are merely bad dreams or hallucinations, and that her true place is among her own kind.
That's a really nice touch there. Love it! Thanks for sharing this one.
No sweat. :)
You're perfectly right, in that "must have a humanoid hand" and "must have something equivilent to a hand" are very different interpretations (and the former, I think, is a little unreasonable).
If your asking how I'd do it, I would say that a creature either has a "hand" (as far as the rules are concerned) or it doesn't: i.e, if it doesn't make sense for you to pick locks or drink potions with it, I wouldn't let you cast spells with it either.
But that's just a general rule (I'm sure there are reasonable exceptions), and again, it's just my take.
If your asking how I'd do it, I would say that a creature either has a "hand" (as far as the rules are concerned) or it doesn't
I've been thinking about it; it would be cool to see a gelatinous cube suddenly form two human-like hands when it begins to cast. There'd be no rules changes, it'd just be for effect. And more importantly, would totally throw my players off.
