Pro's and Con's of which race to play.
I'm either going Human or Halfling Rogue.
With 20 points to spend I can have exactly the same starting stats with either race.
I'm going to take 1 level [probably 2nd] of Wizard to gain immediate access to Mage Armour, Shield, True Strike & Expeditious Retreat, and then a little later on Mirror Image, Displacement etc etc. But otherwise it's all Rogue from then on. Can't be waiting for UMD to get up and running!
Human: Bonus Feat, 1 skill point/level, 30ft movement.
Halfling: +1 AC, to hit & saves [+3 vs. Fear], +4 Move Silently, +2 Listen based Perception, +2 Acrobatics & Jump. 20ft. movement.
I intend to max out Bluff and take Improved Feint, and use Expeditious Retreat to flank where possible to maximise my Sneak Attack opportunities. I'm going to be melee only [no Legolas's here!]
Looking at the two races I'm finding it hard to see past the Halfling as it appears to offer more as a Rogue, although that Human bonus Feat is soo damn tempting!
Any opinions/help would be appreciated. Should I consider any other races? Have I missed anything vital?
I'd lean toward human for the extra strength, feat, and skill points for a melee rogue, but halfling is certainly not a bad call.
My only thought would be the strength/weapon-size/speed on the Halfling. Typically people don't play a Rogue with HEAVY weaponry in mind, but ANY small race has the potential of doing ONLY ONE POINT of damage(plus sneak attack) due to strength/weapon-size. If you're NOT doing a "COMBAT Rogue" or plan on relying EXCLUSIVELY on Sneak Attack damage, then Halfling should be ok.
If I were building a "Combat Rogue" I would do my best to make sure he had at least a 14 STR after ability score adjustments and most likely not pick a small race(small weapons and 20 speed).
Even with Improved Feint, remember, there are creatures that cannot be bluffed or that can see through invisibility and that doesn't even get into damage reduction.
My attempt at a Gnome Fighter in a Human party was painful to say the least. By the 4th time I rebuilt him, he was some crazy Barbarian build that was just really not what I wanted to play.
...And then there's the monstrous small races, they ALL move at a 30, cuz Monster Manual = Fair. :p
I'll tell you the same thing that a couple of my friends told me when I first started playing DND. Don't worry about what will make the premium build. Decide what kind of character that you want to role-play. From a role-playing standpoint, do you want to play a halfling or a human...or maybe even something else? What do you want your character's personality to be like? Come up with a character concept and then worry about what to do with your build.
There is a human Fighter1/rogue4 swashbuckler type in our adult game. I haven't seen her in play yet but I think she's going to rock in our game.
Bah. Humans only good to the edge of yer torchlight. Halflings too short and slow. What you need for maximum undetected stealthyness is Darkvision! Half-orc, baby. It's the only way to go.
Don't listen to that clueless Prime over there, you got to go Human. Oh, Halflings are stealthier, and Half-Orcs don't need any light, but you know what we got that they don't? Feats. You're going to be wanting as many feats as you can get your grubby little hands on. Trust me, I know. Do the smart thing cutter, and go with a Human.
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Bah. Humans only good to the edge of yer torchlight. Halflings too short and slow. What you need for maximum undetected stealthyness is Darkvision! Half-orc, baby. It's the only way to go.Don't listen to that clueless Prime over there, you got to go Human. Oh, Halflings are stealthier, and Half-Orcs don't need any light, but you know what we got that they don't? Feats. You're going to be wanting as many feats as you can get your grubby little hands on. Trust me, I know. Do the smart thing cutter, and go with a Human.
Oh, I got yer 'feet'. and I'll put 'em on a spit and have roast feet and toejam fer din-din.
Oh, I got yer 'feet'. and I'll put 'em on a spit and have roast feet and toejam fer din-din.
I'd like to see you try.
I'd like to see you try to stop me, meatbag. I'm gettin hungry.
And I'd like to see you with a knife in your back. Looks like neither of us are going to get what we want.
From an Optimization POV Human is really always the best race. So if you are building for power gaming then go Human.
Small races are too slow and use small weapons; that is a lose/lose combo. The only time it makes sense to play a small race is if you plan to attack from range, making up for your movement issues, and you don't plan to use physical weapons, ie you are a caster.
If, however, you are more interested in role-playing than roll-playing you should sketch a concept first and then figure out what race is the best fit for that concept.
The only real problem I see is your desire to take a few levels of Wizard. That will significantly weaken your power potential. PfRPG has been balanced so that you should want to stay with a class for all 20 levels. Don't give up sneak attack dice or rogue talents for a couple of spells per day; when you do get UMD stable those levels of Wizard will have been wasted. If you really feel the need for Mage Armor or Shield pick up the Major Magic talent.
From an Optimization POV Human is really always the best race. So if you are building for power gaming then go Human.
Considering the percent of damage that comes from strength or weapon, a halfling rogue having +1-2 to hit (small and +Dex, though the Dex can be matched) probably makes a bigger difference in the long run. Early levels +1-2 AC and saves adds to survivability. Speed can be made up for, and +4 to Stealth and +2 to Acrobatics is pretty nice for a Rogue.
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From an Optimization POV Human is really always the best race. So if you are building for power gaming then go Human.
Small races are too slow and use small weapons; that is a lose/lose combo. The only time it makes sense to play a small race is if you plan to attack from range, making up for your movement issues, and you don't plan to use physical weapons, ie you are a caster.
If, however, you are more interested in role-playing than roll-playing you should sketch a concept first and then figure out what race is the best fit for that concept.
Most of a rogues damage comes from Sneak Attack, so size and strenth is a non-issue. And ranged Sneak Attacks are less reliable than melee since you can't use flank to get them. Though speed is a factor and one of the reasons I rarely play halfling. Beside, half-orcs are just cooler.
The only real problem I see is your desire to take a few levels of Wizard. That will significantly weaken your power potential. PfRPG has been balanced so that you should want to stay with a class for all 20 levels. Don't give up sneak attack dice or rogue talents for a couple of spells per day; when you do get UMD stable those levels of Wizard will have been wasted. If you really feel the need for Mage Armor or Shield pick up the Major Magic talent.
Agreed here though.
Bah. Humans only good to the edge of yer torchlight. Halflings too short and slow. What you need for maximum undetected stealthyness is Darkvision! Half-orc, baby. It's the only way to go.
Yup - Half Orc all the way. Locked Door? Pick it or Kick it.
From an Optimization POV Human is really always the best race. So if you are building for power gaming then go Human.Considering the percent of damage that comes from strength or weapon, a halfling rogue having +1-2 to hit (small and +Dex, though the Dex can be matched) probably makes a bigger difference in the long run. Early levels +1-2 AC and saves adds to survivability. Speed can be made up for, and +4 to Stealth and +2 to Acrobatics is pretty nice for a Rogue.
Needing an extra round to get into position because you are slow probably ends up making a larger difference.
So, Tricky Bob, are you confused yet.
Between the "humans are gods" and "halfings are gods" and "d6 weapons are better than d4 weapons" and "rogue's damage is sneak attack" and "movement rate is king" and "darkvision is king" and "take lots of feats" and "Pathfinder feats aren't as important" and "optimize for maximum effect" and "role-play what you want" advice on this thread, I should think your choice is quite clear:
Play an elf.
Seriously though, I think the best advice you have been given on this thread is to not spend levels on wizard. If all you want is a few spells, you can get them from the rogue talents. If you want more than that, then consider your high-level character facing, say, a balor. Some other rogue would be +2d6 more than you on every sneak attack but your sneak attacks are weak because of your wizard levels. You certainly don't have any wizard spells with just so few levels of wizard that will change this fight. So ultimately, you're just a weak rogue with a few flashy but ineffective wizard spells. It might not be the way you want to go.
Now, if you know this campaign will never get past level 7, well, maybe splitting a few levels of wizard won't be too bad. Still probably a little bad though, but at least CR7 opponents wil be affected by the spell choices you make.
As for the rest, I wouldn't sweat it at all. The tiny differences your racial choice might bring are very tiny in comparison to the benefits of all your class levels, feats, and magic items.
So really, play the race you want to play, it won't really matter in the long run to anyone but you.
A final bit of advice: if there's a cute girl playing a hot elf chick character (or whatever), then pick a handsome, charming race and flirt, flirt, flirt... RP, of course, but you know...
Needing an extra round to get into position because you are slow probably ends up making a larger difference.
Not disagreeing that speed is key, I usually try to play quick characters myself.
But there is the potential for the Fleet feat to be released, there are Boots of Striding and Springing or Minor Magic Expeditious Retreat for a mid-level fix, and the tactical truth of the matter is that even if you don't get yourself right into ideal position, something will usually help you out by walking right on up to you. Make your human friends saunter around to help you flank.
I'm playing a halfling rogue in our beta game now. Not having darkvision can be a hindrance, but thankfully we have casters in the party who can cast it on me if necessary. The 20' move also made things tough at first, especially with a barbarian and a mounted pally in the group as the other melee combatants. My DM took pity on me, though, and I was given a "fleet foot" gift by a powerful NPC which increased my move by 10'. That plus "training" the barbarian and pally not to charge across the battlefield has helped me in several combats hehe.
I chose halfling for the roleplay aspect of it. I had a definite character in mind, and I built it to suit. If I was just going for a generic rogue, I would have made a human most likely.
As the others have stated, I wouldn't spend a level or two on wizard, though. Just pick up the spells you want with the rogue talents. I have, and I don't regret it. /salute!
Oooooh, I forgot all about the Whisper Gnome!
The ultimate rogue race of all times.
Go get em!
There isn't much Halfling love out there....
I'm only going to take 1 level of Wizard. That will give me instant access to...
Spells/Scrolls/Wands
Mage Armour [no check penalty]
Shield [no check penalty]
True Strike [I will hit]
Expeditious Retreat [50ft. movement]
Mirror Image [you missed me]
Displacement [you still missed me]
Darkvision [I can see clearly now the rain is gone]
Everything I need as a Rogue, plus Transmutation Specialist boosts one of my physical stats, and Mr. Rat gives me a free Feat [+2 Fortitude saves], and Wizards have a handy +2 bonus to Will saves [another free Feat].
Weapon damage: d4 isn't great, but d6 isn't that much better. With Bluff maxed out for Imp. Feint and the 50ft. movement for flanking I figured it wouldn't make all that much difference. I intend to either have a Cold Iron/Silver/Adamantine weapon golf bag or just enchant one weapon to overcome the DR using the PF rules.
I'm only going to take 1 level of Wizard. That will give me instant access to...
Spells/Scrolls/Wands
Mage Armour [no check penalty]
Shield [no check penalty]
True Strike [I will hit]
Expeditious Retreat [50ft. movement]
Mirror Image [you missed me]
Displacement [you still missed me]
Darkvision [I can see clearly now the rain is gone]Everything I need as a Rogue, plus Transmutation Specialist boosts one of my physical stats, and Mr. Rat gives me a free Feat [+2 Fortitude saves], and Wizards have a handy +2 bonus to Will saves [another free Feat].
Not bad planning.
Except:
1. You seem to be confused as to which spells are on the 1st level Wizard spell list. You will not have access to Mirror Image, Displacement, and Darkvision.
2. You will only be able to cast 2 first level spells per day. So really, just how many True Strikes are you going to use in combat?
I agree, Shield is very useful to a rogue. If I were a rogue with 1 level of wizard, I would probably prepare Shield in both of my daily slots.
Mage Armor is almost useless to a rogue. Leather armor has no armor check penalties and Mage Armor doesn't stack with it. So for a few GP you already have half the benefit of the spell, all the time, and it never runs out. For about 1,000 gp you can get a mithril chain shirt and have all the benefit of the spell that never runs out.
Expedition Retreat might come in handy, but for every time you will be glad you prepared that, you will have a dozen times you will wish you had prepared a Shield spell instead.
And True Strike is a waste. You have to spend a round casting it (not attacking, then spend a round using it (once) to get +20 to one attack roll. So, if you're dual wielding (don't all rogues dual wield?), you give get to attack twice in two rounds, one of which will surely hit. Or don't use the spell and attack four times in two rounds without a sure hit, but those extra two hits should, probably, be good for at least one hit anyway. You'll hit easy targets more a whole lot more often and really hard targets a little less often. The "more oftens" add up to more sneak attack damage. So don't fall into the True Strike trap - in the long run, you will do less damage with it.
So, one good spell, twice a day.
Your other points about the feats/familiar are fairly good.
Get your party wizard to hook you up with Darkvision or Displacement when you need it. Buy him the wand if he won't prepare them for you (and he won't).
A few levels and your UMD will be high enough to use your own wands.
Or just dump your money into better weapons, better armor, and shred those enemies without pansy wizard magic...
He's your character, do the wizard thing if you want, but it seems like a lot of buck for very little bang.
Not bad planning.Except:
1. You seem to be confused as to which spells are on the 1st level Wizard spell list. You will not have access to Mirror Image, Displacement, and Darkvision.
2. You will only be able to cast 2 first level spells per day. So really, just how many True Strikes are you going to use in combat?
Caster level checks:
DC = caster level + 1.So for the 2nd level spells from scrolls thats a DC of 4 with a d20 + 1.
I agree, Shield is very useful to a rogue. If I were a rogue with 1 level of wizard, I would probably prepare Shield in both of my daily slots.
Mage Armor is almost useless to a rogue. Leather armor has no armor check penalties and Mage Armor doesn't stack with it. So for a few GP you already have half the benefit of the spell, all the time, and it never runs out. For about 1,000 gp you can get a mithril chain shirt and have all the benefit of the spell that never runs out.
Expedition Retreat might come in handy, but for every time you will be glad you prepared that, you will have a dozen times you will wish you had prepared a Shield spell instead.
And True Strike is a waste. You have to spend a round casting it (not attacking, then spend a round using it (once) to get +20 to one attack roll. So, if you're dual wielding (don't all rogues dual wield?), you give get to attack twice in two rounds, one of which will surely hit. Or don't use the spell and attack four times in two rounds without a sure hit, but those extra two hits should, probably, be good for at least one hit anyway. You'll hit...
All good points! However I haven't really been fair with the information that I've given you...
The Party is: Fighter, Cleric, Bard, Druid & Me.
No Wizard to cast those spells! UMD is good but it takes soooo long to be reliable and I'm impatient!
I'm not really a min/max kind of player [anymore!] so all the "you have to play Human Rogue" and "wasting a level in Wizard is folly" comments are a little wasted on me!
I've been DMing so long and I'm now getting a chance to play, yay! Age of Worms from level 1 to 20.
I want an interesting character and I think a Halfling Rogue with 1 level of Wizard is interesting! I probably sound like a crazy man but I am a Human, and playing one in D&D is kinda dull, it's like real life without remote controls!
Also, the +2 to Fort and Will saves that 1 level of Wizard grants [not to mention the +1 to a physical stat & scrolls/wands] is imo, very strong. Saves are all important in D&D. High AC is nice but without good saves you'll end up toast. Rogue's have really bad Fort & Will saves! [Oops min/max, look the other way, walk away from the crazy man!]
Also, I was looking at STR as a dump stat. I know Halfling only do 1d4 damage [rapier finesse-ing] but without sneak damage all Rogues have poor damage output. My focus was going to be in maxing Bluff [feint] and Acrobatics [tumble/expeditious retreat/flank] to nearly always gain sneak damage.
Stats something like...
Str [2] 10 +0
Dex [5] 16 +3
Con [7] 15 +2 [+1 @ 2nd level from Specialist Wizard Transmutation]
Int [3] 13 +1
Wis [5] 14 +2
Cha [3] 15 +2
Feats: weapon finesse, toughness, 2WF, combat expertise, imp. Feint...
Saves @ 2nd level
Fort +6
Ref +7
Will +5
....yes, ok I'm still min/maxing...
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Bah... lost another post.
...yes, ok I'm still min/maxing...
Embrace your inner min/maxer. You know you want to. ;)
As long as you're enjoying your Wiz 1/Rog x, that's what matters, but I would suggest perhaps taking a few more levels of Wiz. Like 3 or 5. Get some higher level spells. Maybe even PrC into Arcane Trixter or Spellwarp Sniper.
Enjoy your time playing. It's good to be on the other side of the screen.
I want an interesting character and I think a Halfling Rogue with 1 level of Wizard is interesting!Mmmmm... and those tasty feets! Hold still little fella, this won't hurt... much.
Dude!....They don't have big hobbity feets! Grrr !
Argothe wrote:Needing an extra round to get into position because you are slow probably ends up making a larger difference.
Not disagreeing that speed is key, I usually try to play quick characters myself.
But there is the potential for the Fleet feat to be released, there are Boots of Striding and Springing or Minor Magic Expeditious Retreat for a mid-level fix, and the tactical truth of the matter is that even if you don't get yourself right into ideal position, something will usually help you out by walking right on up to you. Make your human friends saunter around to help you flank.
Two words.
Throw Anything.
What you gotta do is sidle up to a friend at the table and say, "Hey, my human-playing buddy, you have a spare feat, right?"
Instant Fastball Special!
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Argothe wrote:Needing an extra round to get into position because you are slow probably ends up making a larger difference.
Not disagreeing that speed is key, I usually try to play quick characters myself.
But there is the potential for the Fleet feat to be released, there are Boots of Striding and Springing or Minor Magic Expeditious Retreat for a mid-level fix, and the tactical truth of the matter is that even if you don't get yourself right into ideal position, something will usually help you out by walking right on up to you. Make your human friends saunter around to help you flank.
Two words.
Throw Anything.
What you gotta do is sidle up to a friend at the table and say, "Hey, my human-playing buddy, you have a spare feat, right?"
Instant Fastball Special!
Nope. Only works with melee weapons, so tossing party members won't work. (Eric Mona being the obvious exception here.) Fling Ally (RoS, prereqs include being Large), however is made to order. ;)
Erik Mona is a melee weapon? I thought he was a cyclopsian Pac-Man.
Seriously, though... that's frustratingly limited... and the fact that I think so probably demonstrates my games can get a bit oddball.
Houseruled.
My players have a human monk who's always throwing her gnome barbarian ally at goblins, brigands, ghouls, and things. I don't see why she'd need to be large to do it.
I admit I'm also frustrated because as a DM I thought it was a good way to intigrate throws into the game. (I'm a Stone Giant. I'm fighting a gnome barbarian. I pick him up with grapple, and throw him at the sorceress standing in back.)
I have a half-elf "role-playing" "face of the party" type rogue that I played in the SCAP. Tomaz Shade by name. And by the time we were done I had more feats and skills than I could shake a stick at. Don't get me wrong he could not hit the side of a barn in the lower levles but was devestating later on in the game. I agree with the earlier posts - don't power game, go with what you think you will enjoy playing.
Bandit of LV
Not bad planning.Except:
1. You seem to be confused as to which spells are on the 1st level Wizard spell list. You will not have access to Mirror Image, Displacement, and Darkvision.
2. You will only be able to cast 2 first level spells per day. So really, just how many True Strikes are you going to use in combat?I agree, Shield is very useful to a rogue. If I were a rogue with 1 level of wizard, I would probably prepare Shield in both of my daily slots.
Mage Armor is almost useless to a rogue. Leather armor has no armor check penalties and Mage Armor doesn't stack with it. So for a few GP you already have half the benefit of the spell, all the time, and it never runs out. For about 1,000 gp you can get a mithril chain shirt and have all the benefit of the spell that never runs out.
Expedition Retreat might come in handy, but for every time you will be glad you prepared that, you will have a dozen times you will wish you had prepared a Shield spell instead.
And True Strike is a waste. You have to spend a round casting it (not attacking, then spend a round using it (once) to get +20 to one attack roll. So, if you're dual wielding (don't all rogues dual wield?), you give get to attack twice in two rounds, one of which will surely hit. Or don't use the spell and attack four times in two rounds without a sure hit, but those extra two hits should, probably, be good for at least one hit anyway. You'll hit...
Just to add to what DM_Blake has said, by level 4 you can have 2 daily uses of the Shield spell via the Major Magic talent and those uses will last longer than the spells cast by a level 1 Wizard.
Just to add to what DM_Blake has said, by level 4 you can have 2 daily uses of the Shield spell via the Major Magic talent and those uses will last longer than the spells cast by a level 1 Wizard.
I agree but 2nd level scrolls can be cast with very low DC checks.
1st level scrolls can be cast all day long. And can be Scribed at a higher level.
Expeditious Retreat, for movement
Shield, for AC
Protection from Evil, various
Unseen Servant, set off that trap
Mage Armour, no check penalty
Grease, I shall not be grappled nor will my friends!
Comprehend Languages, Diplomacy/Sense Motive aren't much good if you don't understand the language!
True Strike, I WILL hit you
Magic missile, Plants, Incorporeal, Oozes
Ray of Enfeeblement, you is weak now
Enlarge Person, the fighter just got bigger....
Remember, we don't have a Wizard or Sorcerer in the party.
If you happen to be using Traits, the Magical Knack trait will give you +2 caster level from Wizard, which provides many benefits. Including access to Craft Wondrous Item...
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Erik Mona is a melee weapon? I thought he was a cyclopsian Pac-Man.
There's a thread somewhere from this past week or so... I can't find it, but it was funny. :-/
Seriously, though... that's frustratingly limited... and the fact that I think so probably demonstrates my games can get a bit oddball.
Houseruled.
My players have a human monk who's always throwing her gnome barbarian ally at goblins, brigands, ghouls, and things. I don't see why she'd need to be large to do it.
Well, realistically (Yes, I know. And if you don't need realistic that's cool, I only say this because you asked.) When's the last time you tried to throw an eight year old child? I know a classic Fastball Special involve effort from both parties, but still Colossus and Beast, who were I believe the main 'throwers' are quite a bit more powerfully built than even a really strong normal guy. NOT that I am trying to convince you otherwise, if it works for your games that's awesome. I'm only, you know, giving you the argument.
I admit I'm also frustrated because as a DM I thought it was a good way to intigrate throws into the game. (I'm a Stone Giant. I'm fighting a gnome barbarian. I pick him up with grapple, and throw him at the sorceress standing in back.)
Coincidentally enough, RoS also has the feat Fling Foe. ;-)
Coincidentally enough, RoS also has the feat Fling Foe. ;-)
Isn't that halFLING Foe!
After re-reading the rules on scrolls and considering all that a Wizard gets at level 1 I think tricky bob is correct. A single level dip into Wizard is worthwhile - crazy I know.
After re-reading the rules on scrolls and considering all that a Wizard gets at level 1 I think tricky bob is correct. A single level dip into Wizard is worthwhile - crazy I know.
You do realize that you now a crazy man like me!
Why would you multiclass with the new rogue?! If you just want a couple minor spells look at the pathfinder rogue's Minor and Major Magic talents. All you need!
As far as race, Human, Half-Elf or Halfling. Personally I like halflings especially as rogues for the stealth bonuses and the general concept. +1 to hit and +1 ac is quite nice for being small. You can always get boots of striding and springing if you're worried about the movement hit. Human is pretty solid as well, and a lot of character concepts I've had involve human rogues/bravos. Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser!
Why would you multiclass with the new rogue?! If you just want a couple minor spells look at the pathfinder rogue's Minor and Major Magic talents. All you need!
If you read the other posts you would have seen that the group does not have a Wizard or Sorcerer. The level dip is to gain all the first and second [with caster level checks] level spells immediately and the use of all arcane wands way, way before I could using UMD. I listed some of the spells above.
Wasting 2 Rogue talents to gain a single level one spells is, at least to me, an utter waste of perfectly good Feat opportunities. As I stated in the original post, I'm going with a melee build, concentrating on doing sneak attack damage at every opportunity via flanking and feinting. Also stated above, the level dip grants me a +2 bonus to Will and Fortitude saves and a free physical stat point. Not a bad trade off for 1 point of BAB, 2 hit points and a handful of skill points, imo!