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It happened - the Druid in our Monday night Pathfinder Beta game drew the "Balance" card from the Deck of Many Things. Ugh! What now?
The mandate is that the alignment change be "radically different", so, it should be one of the following, right?:
>LG
>LE
>CG
>CE
That said, his status becomes Ex-Druid, right? And, in order to get Druidic powers back (spellcasting, animal companion etc.) he must "attone" right?
So now what?
I've handled paladin attonement before. And, I've recently played a 12th level Cleric who was stripped of power because he succumbed to temptation by an evil god.... but I've never handled a "Druid Attonement" if indeed, that's what the rules call for?
The system is v.3.5/Pathfinder Beta. I have a little over 1 week to determine what happens next?
Caveat: I do have some loopholes in the story-context to work with, such as the fact that the PCs are unknowingly in a small demi-plane. But I'd like to straigten out the effects before factoring that in.
Please point out a resource, book, or share your experience and wisdom please? What now, for the Druid?
Or, Neutral druid who doesn't care about L/C/G/E suddenly feels obligated to make sure everything is in balance. Does evil acts to balance out good acts, etc. Helps orcs raze a town after fighting off a group of hobgoblins in another.
It happened - the Druid in our Monday night Pathfinder Beta game drew the "Balance" card from the Deck of Many Things. Ugh! What now?
The mandate is that the alignment change be "radically different", so, it should be one of the following, right?:
>LG
>LE
>CG
>CEThat said, his status becomes Ex-Druid, right? And, in order to get Druidic powers back (spellcasting, animal companion etc.) he must "attone" right?
So now what?
I've handled paladin attonement before. And, I've recently played a 12th level Cleric who was stripped of power because he succumbed to temptation by an evil god.... but I've never handled a "Druid Attonement" if indeed, that's what the rules call for?
The system is v.3.5/Pathfinder Beta. I have a little over 1 week to determine what happens next?
Caveat: I do have some loopholes in the story-context to work with, such as the fact that the PCs are unknowingly in a small demi-plane. But I'd like to straigten out the effects before factoring that in.
Please point out a resource, book, or share your experience and wisdom please? What now, for the Druid?
There is always BZZZT...pick again.
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There is always BZZZT...pick again.
This doesn't really address the problem and could be very unsatisfying on the whole. Though it does solve the current problem at hand I think it would be more rewarding to slug it out. Let the druid lose their powers temporarily, maybe they'll try trekking their way back to atonement or do something else with their career. It will be tough, I've never dealt with an ex-druid before myself, but there are some opportunities there that could be awesome.
Some quick ideas off the top of my head:
- Maybe there's a cloister of druids who keep an eye on their own kind. They sense that this one has left the fold and take measures to get him back in, perhaps even resorting to kidnapping.
- The druid winds up meeting with a cleric and takes a liking to the teachings (or perhaps chats with a cleric they already know). Could be the possibility for joining the order here and maybe gaining cleric levels for ex-druid levels (this would keep their power-level about par with the rest of the party).
- ??? Lost my train of thought.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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When I first read the title, I thought the thread was a complaint that the druid was now a balanced class under the PFRPG rules. ;-)
I don't have any good information about having the druid gain attonement, but I'd agree with most of what's been said above. Another thought would be to run with the class and maybe make a prestige class that allows for a non-neutral druid. IIRC, one of the Complete books had a druid prestige class (the Blighter?) which was an evil druid and still got druid spells. That could be a useful template.
Or, if you don't want to do a prestige class and you're willing to bend the rules, a Lawful Good (or Chaotic Good) druid who still receives spells could make for an interesting (and unique) character concept. You could do a little mixing and matching of abilities too, maybe give them a paladin-esque divine creature instead of their normal animal companion.
If a druid draws the balance card, he must upgrade to the Pathfinder RPG version as soon as the rules come out.
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If a druid draws the balance card, he must upgrade to the Pathfinder RPG version as soon as the rules come out.
Why - do you know something we don't? Because if non neutral druids are allowed in Pathfinder RPG, we need to get Jason Bulmahn on the horn right away. I'd rather just upgrade the PC now....
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All good ideas everyone, I'd still like to hear a few more if possible...
maybe gaining cleric levels for ex-druid levels
Is there any precedence in the system for a wholesale swap-out... "I'll trade you 8 Druid Levels for 8 Cleric levels." I've never heard of that....but if you have a source reference I surely would appreciate it.
Caveat: I am completely comfortable handling this with DM Fiat, as I also run a monthly 1e game. But my pride and joy is v.3.5/Pathfinder RPG Beta, and I use all RAW.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Is there any precedence in the system for a wholesale swap-out... "I'll trade you 8 Druid Levels for 8 Cleric levels." I've never heard of that....but if you have a source reference I surely would appreciate it.Caveat: I am completely comfortable handling this with DM Fiat, as I also run a monthly 1e game. But my pride and joy is v.3.5/Pathfinder RPG Beta, and I use all RAW.
I think there are some retraining rules in the PHBII, that might be helpful if you want to stay within the realm of the RAW.
All good ideas everyone, I'd still like to hear a few more if possible...
maybe gaining cleric levels for ex-druid levelsIs there any precedence in the system for a wholesale swap-out... "I'll trade you 8 Druid Levels for 8 Cleric levels." I've never heard of that....but if you have a source reference I surely would appreciate it.
Maybe the Athar prestige class from the Planar Handbook? I know you get some benefits for being an ex-cleric (similar to the Blackguard class and being an ex-paladin).
1e DMG, states, and I quote;
"Balance Change Alignment or be judged."
Further defining it here, and I quote;
"Balance: as "weighed in the balance and found wanting"
it goes on to say, either the alignment is changed to a non-nuetral or the character is judged over pass actions and if found deviating for their alignment destroyed utterly.
Yikes, maybe a little to rough for a 3.X game.
But why not just "Judge" the character's actions and reward them in kind for their actions, either with some limited blessing or curse?
No one has to deal with losing a loved druid, game continues, lesson learned about dealing from the deck.
Eric
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Is there any precedence in the system for a wholesale swap-out... "I'll trade you 8 Druid Levels for 8 Cleric levels." I've never heard of that....but if you have a source reference I surely would appreciate it.
Caveat: I am completely comfortable handling this with DM Fiat, as I also run a monthly 1e game. But my pride and joy is v.3.5/Pathfinder RPG Beta, and I use all RAW.
In all honesty I was chalking this one up to DM fiat. Using the Blackguard or some of the other suggestions made by Sebastian or hogarth may work nicely as a template or on the whole. Personally I like to stay within the RAW as well, it's one of the nicer things about 3.5, but sometimes I just think of something and say "that would make a cool story, let's do it". This is one of those times :)
If a druid draws the balance card, he must upgrade to the Pathfinder RPG version as soon as the rules come out.Why - do you know something we don't? Because if non neutral druids are allowed in Pathfinder RPG, we need to get Jason Bulmahn on the horn right away. I'd rather just upgrade the PC now....
No Pax, it was a joke. The preview for the Pathfinder RPG druid has had it's wild shaping abilities reduced in power, thus making the druid a more balanced class compared to the other classes...thus, if you draw the balance card you must convert to Pathfinder RPG rules. ;)
More seriously, you are dealing with a deck of many things. While the possible rewards are great, the possible penalties are catastrophic. Going strictly by the rules, I'm thinking the druid becomes one of the extreme alignments and loses druid abilities until another druid casts atonement on him to restore his aligment. Then, since the druid will not be acting in concordance with the Deck's mandated aligmnment, he will gain a negative level (but at least he'll have his druid abilities back).
Is the druid actually true neutral? If he's NG he'd go NE, or CN to LN.
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I'm thinking the druid becomes one of the extreme alignments and loses druid abilities until another druid casts atonement on him to restore his aligment. Then, since the druid will not be acting in concordance with the Deck's mandated aligmnment, he will gain a negative level (but at least he'll have his druid abilities back).
Oh, yeah, I was just playing along with the joke.
Also, this is where I've been gravitating. And, BTW, excellent quotation of Gygax earlier upthread - Kudos! I already consulted the 1e DMG, the 3e DMG and Pathfinder RPG. I love those time when I need to dig all the way back to Gary's writings... its like seeking out the Oracle at Delphi. anyhow...
My thought currently is to let the player play a Lawful or Chaotic Evil personna, but not reveal the changed alignment to the party.
Then proceed with watching events unfold. Ultimately, he will have a rich character who struggles against the sudden evil bestowed upon him. It should make for very dramatic rp.
Next, when he deviates from the evil, he will receive an negative level, and perhaps continue losing his life, as his struggle depleats him. Eventually the players may get him back to his mentor (if they get out of this demi plane) for some good old healing and atonement.
But, I am loving all these alternate ideas. Please keep them coming. The jury is still out.
Yes, Ghettowedge, he was true Neutral.
Weren't there two versions of neutral in earlier editions? 'Normal' neutral and true neutral?
Yeah and technically still is, however in this case roll a 1d4 1 = LG 2 = CG 3 = LE 4 = CE sorry for your lack of class features that's what you get when you draw the card, just like if you grabbed the imprisonment card. If the DM doesn't like it shouldn't have let THE deck in.
How about no effect and rest of the deck goes up in a puff of illogic
or even better the druid becomes gender neutral, no sexual organs or desires.
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Yeah and technically still is, however in this case roll a 1d4 1 = LG 2 = CG 3 = LE 4 = CE sorry for your lack of class features that's what you get when you draw the card, just like if you grabbed the imprisonment card. If the DM doesn't like it shouldn't have let THE deck in.Weren't there two versions of neutral in earlier editions? 'Normal' neutral and true neutral?
Agreed. I let the deck in, and am very comfortable with it. The whole adventure arc is about chaos anyhow. (No, not you KaeYoss, but thanks for the discount anyway.)
The 1d4 was something I mentioned to the player as he was leaving. I told him I would make a determination, and will let him know what happens...
I think its especially important to let this run as designed without trying to "save the PC" in any way. Part of the charm of my homebrew Pathfinder RPG, is that while I am honoring the RAW, I am also serving up the best Gygaxian feel that I can. This past session earned many handshakes on the way out the door.... players kept repeating "wow, what a memorable session, I can't wait until next week."
I like the story so much, I might publish it as an adventure.... if I only knew how it ends=-)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Yeah and technically still is, however in this case roll a 1d4 1 = LG 2 = CG 3 = LE 4 = CE sorry for your lack of class features that's what you get when you draw the card, just like if you grabbed the imprisonment card. If the DM doesn't like it shouldn't have let THE deck in.Weren't there two versions of neutral in earlier editions? 'Normal' neutral and true neutral?
I agree. I introduced a 'stacked' deck of many things in. Arranged the cards I wanted on top and set the deck in the middle of the table.
Of course... one of the players had to shuffle it.
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Yeah and technically still is, however in this case roll a 1d4 1 = LG 2 = CG 3 = LE 4 = CE sorry for your lack of class features that's what you get when you draw the card, just like if you grabbed the imprisonment card. If the DM doesn't like it shouldn't have let THE deck in.Weren't there two versions of neutral in earlier editions? 'Normal' neutral and true neutral?
I agree. I introduced a 'stacked' deck of many things in. Arranged the cards I wanted on top and set the deck in the middle of the table.
Of course... one of the players had to shuffle it.
I've earned a LOT of trust from my players, and in turn, my players play like "big boys." They can handle it.
Another player, the Cleric in fact, drew the VOID. Just about the worst one a player can draw. These characters began in March of 2008. But as they say, when one door closes, another opens.
Since the end of Monday's session, about 15 new adventure ideas popped into my head. I mean, afterall, wouldn't they want to put the limp body of the cleric back together with his soul?
As for the druid - I think it comes down to 1d4 in the end. And even then, I think the player is going to play up a resistance to the new alignment, thus losing a level (or more, depending on how long this persists). And the chips will fall where they may.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained, right?
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Here's my suggestion:
Step 1 - Though generally true neutral, determine if the druid has a tendency to act more good or evil and lawful or chaotic.
Step 2 - If (for example) the druid tends more toward a chaotic and good bent when dealing with situations, make him lawful evil. Follow suit for any other combination of law/chaos, good/evil.
If it's too hard to make a ruling on this, either use the random alignment roll Abraham suggested or make him one of the two available evil alignments (CE or LE.) I suggest Chaotic Evil and here's why:
Creatures of Neutral alignment, while lacking the drive to perform good deeds simply for the sake of being good, generally prefer to have good neighbors and will act cordially toward others because they don't want to deal with the consequences of being a jerk. I think lawful behavior (or at least living in a society with a clear set of rules) would also appeal to a Neutral creature more than chaos because it leaves less room for conflict which means the Neutral creature is less likely to be hurt. Therefore, for simplicity's sake, I would rule that the druid becomes the aligment that is the most dangerous to a neutral creature (i.e. Chaotic Evil.)
Regardless of the alignment he ends up with, I'd explain the character's sudden shift in thought like this: After years of either feeling indifferent to the forces of the universe or trying to balance the world around him (depending on his particular take on neutrality,) the character suddenly realizes he has spent his life only reacting to events around him forcing himself into a state of near-constant struggle to return his life or the world to normalcy. The card he drew has given him the inspiration to begin acting instead of reacting allowing him to enforce his will upon the world. He might still struggle, but now he'll be on offense rather than defense. Eventually (through his determination and initiative,) the world will become the way he thinks it should be.
Do you follow?
The character would, of course, lose all druid spells, etc., but their shift in thought might force them to consider that being a druid was never right for them anyway. In effect, the new alignment might become like an addictive substance preventing the character from wanting to return to the druidic fold. The druid's "intervention" could come in the form of an event that shocks him back into a more passive, reactionary attitude.
There's really a wealth of opportunity here for studying alignment psychology.
Just a quick thought - take a look at some of the Dark Sun stuff and the effects that magic can have on the environment. You could force the druid to choose between nature or their spells, with magic warping nature and not producing the desired results.
The way to handle the atonement for this could be related to solving the problems without recourse to magic. E.g. befriend the animals, plant the seeds etc.
Peace,
tfad
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Do you follow?
The character would, of course, lose all druid spells, etc., but their shift in thought might force them to consider that being a druid was never right for them anyway. In effect, the new alignment might become like an addictive substance preventing the character from wanting to return to the druidic fold. The druid's "intervention" could come in the form of an event that shocks him back into a more passive, reactionary attitude.
There's really a wealth of opportunity here for studying alignment psychology.
Oh yes - I follow completely.
And I'm intrigued because this approach feels right. Question:: When you say, "the world will become the way he thinks it should be" in relation to CE alignment... how would you envision that going?
Thanks.
Of course there is always the option of giving the player the choice of playing the character with the loss of abilities or retiring the character and allowing the player to bring in a new character of the same level.
There is the aforementioned blackguard, which allows an ex-paladin to swap levels in the defunct class for levels in their new, darker profession. Also, there is the shadowcaster, which allows a character to trade out wizard levels for shadowcaster levels at each level up. Finally, the PHBII has rules for retraining and even more drastic character recreation.
I agree with the other posts upthread about what should happen to the druid immediately regarding their alignment, class, and how it's affected by the deck. The above precedents and books might be useful for helping to (ex-)druid figure out what they want to do afterwards.
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well... He could always become a Blighter(CD). If he becomes CE, then it would be the perfect little fix mixed in with the story, if he doesn't want to gain those negative levels. He would suddenly be burning down the forests he used to revere, cackling madly while doing so. He would regain some similar powers to what he used to have, and he would be following the card's almighty decree.
I think you should suggest it to him.
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I think there are some retraining rules in the PHBII, that might be helpful if you want to stay within the realm of the RAW.
Is there any precedence in the system for a wholesale swap-out... "I'll trade you 8 Druid Levels for 8 Cleric levels." I've never heard of that....but if you have a source reference I surely would appreciate it.Caveat: I am completely comfortable handling this with DM Fiat, as I also run a monthly 1e game. But my pride and joy is v.3.5/Pathfinder RPG Beta, and I use all RAW.
Blackguards can trade in ex-paladin levels for blackguard levels, so I don't see why a druid can't trade in levels for cleric levels.
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Of course there is always the option of giving the player the choice of playing the character with the loss of abilities or retiring the character and allowing the player to bring in a new character of the same level.
Not an option. Integrity of the PC, story, and game would be in question at my table.
Retirement of characters is never an issue, but I expect players to manage through issues fully first.
What about a balancing of the character's base tendencies? In order to make a character that is already balanced in alignment 'balanced' by the card, it would have to make him 'unbalanced'.
Give him a lycanthrope template(or something equally chaotic and more specifically- destructive). Have him not be entirely in control of himself then. (rampages at night when the char thinks hes asleep etc.)Loss of balance, which is the druid's core. Make it difficult, but maybe not impossible to cure. Make sure it is a story element and not just a boost to stats.
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Blackguards can trade in ex-paladin levels for blackguard levels, so I don't see why a druid can't trade in levels for cleric levels.I think there are some retraining rules in the PHBII, that might be helpful if you want to stay within the realm of the RAW.
Is there any precedence in the system for a wholesale swap-out... "I'll trade you 8 Druid Levels for 8 Cleric levels." I've never heard of that....but if you have a source reference I surely would appreciate it.Caveat: I am completely comfortable handling this with DM Fiat, as I also run a monthly 1e game. But my pride and joy is v.3.5/Pathfinder RPG Beta, and I use all RAW.
I like this too.
I don't need a book to justify my GM decision, but in looking through them I can't seem to find a precedence for this... I will have to play this by ear... as some characters become truly broken in an rp sense when the primary thing they stand for gets hosed.I'm interested to watch the player play up another alignment, and perhaps will demonstrate some internal conflict that is fighting to resist it.
Yet, I haven't decided if I want to play the profoundly related caveat yet.
The story in this mini-adventure involves a powerful Druidess who led the party through a small forest that she protects. As she is True neutral, she has found a way to lead anyone wishing to cross her forest into a demi-plane of like kind an quality that overlays the 10 mile hex beyond.
When PCs slay monsters, the turn back into the bloody bodies of castle servants. This has completely blown the players away. So the PCs are hesitant to slay anything.
The entire sub-plane, is a creation of the Druidess to "trap" and "teach" others not to f~~& with her forest flora and fauna.
Its truly amazing what a True Neutral is capable of, eh?
That said, my caveat card would be the, "anything that happened in the demi-plane" didn't really happen. Thus allowing the remaining PCs who don't die in the next session, to save all the "trapped persons" by finding a way out and slaying the "True neutral!"
Perhaps they'll build a road through her forest, since the party Tank owns the deed to this hex and the castle upon it. This is a really juicy story - and I can't do it justice by summarizing here.
But I really dislike the whole, "You wake up as though from a bad dream" adventure solution. But it is mildly workable here.... just a consideration, what do you think about running the adventure until only 1 PC is left. If he finds a way out, slays the Druidess, the people become free... trapped there from different years gone by, but now released and loyal to the new "lord." Thoughts?
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Of course, given the context of the story - what would be the problem making the PC druid lawful or chaotic good and restoring his powers per the gods themselves, as a lesson that True Neutrality can sometimes cause as much harm than it does good.
Perhaps the gods of neutrality were upset with the Druidess' actions, as they interrupted the nature of things that are perfectly balanced by the gods themselves.
Something to think about.
And yes, I realize I would be bending rules here. But maybe someone will find me a Chaotic or Lawful Good Druid RAW somewhere..... maybe?
Of course there is always the option of giving the player the choice of playing the character with the loss of abilities or retiring the character and allowing the player to bring in a new character of the same level.Not an option. Integrity of the PC, story, and game would be in question at my table.
Retirement of characters is never an issue, but I expect players to manage through issues fully first.
The PC's entire mindset has shifted and he has become a burden on the party due to losing his abilities including his animal companion. I think integrity of the PC has left town at this point.
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Question:: When you say, "the world will become the way he thinks it should be" in relation to CE alignment... how would you envision that going?
What I mean is that now that the character feels empowered to act according to his own passions, he feels he can actively effect the world in whatever way he now considers appropriate based on his new worldview. For an ex-Neutral druid who's become Chaotic Evil, I picture something like this:
Option 1 - If his goals as a neutral druid were to protect nature or defend the balance of the cosmos, his goals don't have to change. His methods do. He's decided that sitting back and waiting for trouble to fix isn't cutting it. It's time to take the fight to the troublemakers and anybody he sees as a threat to nature or the balance of the cosmos becomes a target. He may have lost his connection with nature, but that isn't going to stop him from enacting terrible venegeance for every trapped animal, cut tree and stripped quarry he's ever come across in the cruelest fashion. Every city and village could become a target of his ire because there used to be a forest or a glade or a pristine beach where that city is standing. Nobody gets off easy (not even other party members.) He becomes the ultimate eco-terrorist. I recommend he follow the path of Ranger for this one because he still loves nature, but he's become savagely obsessed with protecting it to the point where he can't rationalize his actions.
Option 2 - If his take on neutrality was more toward indifference to the forces of the universe with no desire to effect the world more than he needed to in order to survive (i.e. the way neutral animals act,) he'd have a different (more traditional) shift in thought with regard to Chaotic Evil. Living only to survive isn't getting him anywhere. Being a druid may have made it easier for him to survive being trapped in the wilderness or in a dungeon, but all the vows and religious trappings are holding him back and keeping him from what he really needs to become completely safe: Power. He might hold a grudge against the druidic order for keeping him down and become a Blighter (if he's at least a level 5 druid) or he could decide the quickest route to power is by taking it away from others relying on his formidable nature skills to become a Barbarian leader plundering and taking over the strongest nations in the world. He might also decide that true power isn't going to come from nature or brute strength becoming a Sorcerer because the gifts of the sorcerer come straight from himself. Regardless of his choice, Survival of the Fittest becomes his mantra. Something is yours only as long as you can hold onto it and, if something is taken from you, it was probably never yours to begin with. Reliance on others makes a man weak and foolish. All that jazz.
Option 3 - He could seek to summon a fiend in order to become a blackguard, but I recommend he only do that if he decides that he wishes to pursue evil for the sole sake of performing evil. That's what a blackguard is. He may gain power, followers and infamy, but those are just a Christmas bonus to somebody whose sole mission in life is to spread destruction, sin and misery. The druid might decide everything he grew up believing was a lie, subservience to nature made him a slave and the good he may have done was met with betrayal. He might then decide that if the world is going is to treat him that way, he has no reason not to give it right back with a free side of curly fires. The whole world needs to burn and, when the job is done, he'll willingly step into the fires and burn right along with it. That's a blackguard; the kind of guy who brings hell to earth because he doesn't want to be alone when he gets there.
I don't think blackguard is right for this situation, but I don't know the player or the character's history.
This could work really well with your campaign based on the description of the antagonist if the druid takes Option 1. Seeing how the PC druid has become a crazed defender of nature with no regard to mercy or leniency could make the antagonist realize she might be taking the same path with her trap. She is, in effect, passing death sentences on people who may have never done anything to harm the forest. Some of those castle servants may have volunteered time planting trees or caring for wounded wildlife, and now they're dead because she had to play schoolmarm to a few of the king's hunters and dambuilders. Maybe the shock of seeing somebody so like herself at the start of all this lose himself to his devotion will make her realize there's another way to do this without loss of life? In the end, she could be the one who grants the druid his atonement because he's taught her a valuable lesson. Abracadabra. He's a druid again with all privileges reinstated. Crisis averted.
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The PC's entire mindset has shifted and he has become a burden on the party due to losing his abilities including his animal companion. I think integrity of the PC has left town at this point.Of course there is always the option of giving the player the choice of playing the character with the loss of abilities or retiring the character and allowing the player to bring in a new character of the same level.Not an option. Integrity of the PC, story, and game would be in question at my table.
Retirement of characters is never an issue, but I expect players to manage through issues fully first.
Nope. When characters break down, when they struggle the most... it brings about the most dramatic character change. When characters change, they develop. And either characters develop... or they become mundane and not worth telling a heroic story about, no longer worthy of the lime-light that is the adventure!
Struggle is the essence of character development, not powers-levels-feats-winds... or any such security. Hardship and burden test the metal of a character.
I can't discuss this point meaningfully with you, as you don't seem to have a point of reference on this. So, let's say we agree to disagree.
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Question:: When you say, "the world will become the way he thinks it should be" in relation to CE alignment... how would you envision that going?What I mean is that now that the character feels empowered to act according to his own passions, he feels he can actively effect the world in whatever way he now considers appropriate based on his new worldview. For an ex-Neutral druid who's become Chaotic Evil, I picture something like this:
Option 1 - If his goals as a neutral druid were to protect nature or defend the balance of the cosmos, his goals don't have to change. His methods do. He's decided that sitting back and waiting for trouble to fix isn't cutting it. It's time to take the fight to the troublemakers and anybody he sees as a threat to nature or the balance of the cosmos becomes a target. He may have lost his connection with nature, but that isn't going to stop him from enacting terrible venegeance for every trapped animal, cut tree and stripped quarry he's ever come across in the cruelest fashion. Every city and village could become a target of his ire because there used to be a forest or a glade or a pristine beach where that city is standing. Nobody gets off easy (not even other party members.) He becomes the ultimate eco-terrorist. I recommend he follow the path of Ranger for this one because he still loves nature, but he's become savagely obsessed with protecting it to the point where he can't rationalize his actions.
Option 2 - If his take on neutrality was more toward indifference to the forces of the universe with no desire to effect the world more than he needed to in order to survive (i.e. the way neutral animals act,) he'd have a different (more traditional) shift in thought with regard to Chaotic Evil. Living only to survive isn't getting him anywhere. Being a druid may have made it easier for him to survive being trapped in the wilderness or in a dungeon, but all the vows and religious trappings are holding him back and keeping him from what he...
Velcro Zipper, you're my friend,
You know how to make a great story end,You gave me ideas, and I'm awefully thankful to you.
Bow Doe Doe De Oh!
Seriously - - - - that's lookin' watertight. Thanks.
The PC's entire mindset has shifted and he has become a burden on the party due to losing his abilities including his animal companion. I think integrity of the PC has left town at this point.Of course there is always the option of giving the player the choice of playing the character with the loss of abilities or retiring the character and allowing the player to bring in a new character of the same level.Not an option. Integrity of the PC, story, and game would be in question at my table.
Retirement of characters is never an issue, but I expect players to manage through issues fully first.
Nope. When characters break down, when they struggle the most... it brings about the most dramatic character change. When characters change, they develop. And either characters develop... or they become mundane and not worth telling a heroic story about, no longer worthy of the lime-light that is the adventure!
Struggle is the essence of character development, not powers-levels-feats-winds... or any such security. Hardship and burden test the metal of a character.
I can't discuss this point meaningfully with you, as you don't seem to have a point of reference on this. So, let's say we agree to disagree.
Oh, I understand evolution of character. But when the character's personality basically becomes a different person, I wouldn't call that character integrity. Think of it this way. A player has been playing his character as a noble hero who sacrifices for others. And then one day the player for no reason decides to start playing the character as a murderous thug. Would you call that character integrity or would you call b.s. on it?
As for the issue of powers, I'm guessing that is a swipe towards roleplaying vs. rollplaying, but if that is the case it is flawed. That is unless your players make a habit out of playing commoners with 10's and 11's for stats. If not, then I would suggest there is some consideration as to the character's having meaningful abilities. I mean why play a druid in the first place versus playing an adept if the abilities weren't contributing to the party?
EDIT: Anyway, my point was, you have effectively created a new character anyway (different abilities, different personality). So why not give the player the option of trading it out for a character they may want to play. You might be surprised, they may choose to stick with this "new" character after all. And in the end it was their choice, so it is not being forced on them.
In the end, she could be the one who grants the druid his atonement because he's taught her a valuable lesson. Abracadabra. He's a druid again with all privileges reinstated. Crisis averted.
That sounds like a very good way to handle the situation within the game. If, however, you go for this route, I would still make the druid have to endure a certain amount of time (perhaps just as long as it takes them to get out of the demi-plane, depending on the game) as Chaotic Evil (or whatever alignment he ends up). Let him suffer it out, or get a chance to play with it and have his fun if the player views it like that; while still offering a way to undo it in the long run so he isn't totally hosed out of whatever plans he may have had for the character which the new alignment might clash with (if such things existed for the PC).
Id you get rid of it too quickly without giving it a chance to play out in the game some, it seems like handwaving the development away, and then what's the point of having it there at all, right?
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Id you get rid of it too quickly without giving it a chance to play out in the game some, it seems like handwaving the development away, and then what's the point of having it there at all, right?
Or you could look at it like it's one of those story arcs where Superman is dosed with red kryptonite and acts like a jerk for an issue or two before the effects wear off. The druid doesn't need to stay evil for long. He just needs to be evil long enough to show the audience (the players and DM in this case) how dangerous he can be if he isn't returned to normal and provide a moral lesson to the antagonist druid. He can do that in a number of ways:
- He could abandon his own party only to stalk, capture and torture them for their crimes against nature (he might not have spells, but he could use his superior nature skills to set up traps, ambushes, etc.)
- He could out-crazy the antagonist druid by capturing and/or killing a large number of NPCs for perceived crimes against nature.
- He could just ramble like a madman to the antagonist druid about all the terrible things he has planned for the world now that he realizes what a threat civilization is.
Whatever he does needs to be something the party and the druid remember for a long time, but it doesn't need to span even a week of gametime. It isn't handwaving the event if the evil act he performs is something that teaches a lesson or causes a significant change or loss to the party or to the druid. Maybe this evil act causes the loss of the druid's beloved animal companion?
The animal companion loses it's abilities anyway, but it might not leave the druid's side. It could follow along because it's a dumb animal and it recognizes the druid as its master. However at some point, perhaps, the animal turns on him and the druid has to kill or drive off the animal or the druid does something that inadvertently causes the animal to die?
I'm just throwing things out here.
And, you're welcome, Pax. As a member of the enchanted woodland community, I feel a special duty to address this situation as it concerns a valued member of sylvan society. Besides, being able to Detect Evil at will tends to make us unicorns into armchair psychologists...or it would...if we weren't constantly breaking all the armchairs.
Good stuff.
Those were my thoughts as well; apologies if I failed to articulate them clearly. So long as the alignment change is around long enough to have its due impact, whatever that may be, it's good. I was just stating that I thought it would be poor to have the scene essentially play out as: "Oh, no! The Deck of Many Things made you lose your class abilities! It's okay, though, the other druid fixes everything." Not that you or Pax were going down that road; I just thought I'd articulate it for the sake of the discussion in general.
Id
Eek! That's a terrible typo. I swear I'm not getting Freudian on anyone. Let's just keep civilly discussing the druid's sex change as we were. Yes, the most important thing is his danger of having a slip....
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@ Velcro Zipper - So, to create story tension, perhaps the alignment shift is toward LG, so that the PC Ex-druid can weigh the illegality of the NPC Druidess' actions against her. ...?
I wonder if CE might lead the PC down the path of killing to acquire all the forests as his own in whatever way he can.... which, is interesting, but not as dramatically in oposition to the antagonist....
just thinkin' out loud now...
One of the things that I'd like to interject is that, with magical alignment shifts like this, the character finds themselves wanting to be the alignment they shifted to. You alignment shift a paladin to Chaotic Evil, he doesn't go "well, jeez. I'll just work my alignment back over to LG and get an atonement." He thinks to himself "it's time to murder some people and throw morality to the wind."
The druid doesn't want to be neutral now. He suddenly looks at his time as neutral as a mistake, and that his new alignment is exactly where he wants to be. He wouldn't understand everyone trying to change him back. He'd be frustrated with the loss of levels, but he'd work to find a way to replace them in all likelihood. I'd use the PHBII's retraining rules, though it'd be a time-consuming process that would require a great deal of effort on his part. Alternatively, if he's evil, he could just be a Blighter.
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One of the things that I'd like to interject is that, with magical alignment shifts like this, the character finds themselves wanting to be the alignment they shifted to.
This is what I thought as well, couldn't recall where I read it or anything like that though. If someone finds it (or something to the contrary) could you provide that info?
Also wanted to add that the contributions here have been great and well-thought out. Thanks a lot all, especially you Velcro Zipper since your posts sound like killer ideas in-game.
Pax you have to let us know how things pan out in-game!