RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Hi, David. That gibes with my understanding, as well. If the poison has some secondary effect -- like shivering or nausea, or a marked pallor and a hideous rictus grin -- that effect continues until the successful save.
I'm not sure how to handle someone falling victim to more than one dose at a time. Presumably it's either two separate saves each round, or else a single save at -2.
Hi, I've been reading up on poison in the Beta, getting ready for a session. I guess I'm kind of thick, because I'm not understanding exactly how they work (or at least I'm not confident I correctly understand the mechanism). Based on what I'm reading, the way I perceive poison to work in general is that when exposed to the poison the victim makes a saving throw. If successful, that's that, no more waiting a minute to make another save. If the save fails, then each round the victim takes the damage and gets a new save. Once ONE save succeeds, the effect of the poison is over. If no save succeeds, the damage continues for the number of rounds specified in the Frequency entry for the poison, then the poisoning ends on its own.
Is that correct, or am I way off base? Thanks in advance for any insight.
That is exactly how it works.
Thanks to Pathfinder, this gives new life to the Slow Poison spell.
Note that poisons might require more than one save. Currently, the King's Sleep and Nighmare Vapor poisons are examples that requires two consecutive saves to cure the poison.
Also note that some poisons might not allow any save. See the Tears of Death poison in the BETA rules. 1d6 CON damage every minute for 5 minutes, no save. You must be magically cured or you better be ready to take 5d6 CON damage.
I'm not sure how to handle someone falling victim to more than one dose at a time. Presumably it's either two separate saves each round, or else a single save at -2.
I'm not sure where you're gettnig the idea of -2. I suspect the official word on this would be to treat it like two separate conditions (imagine if one were a poison and one were an ongoing spell - you would need two saves every round, right?). So two poisons works the same way. Two saves.
Me, I don't like that quite as much. I think if you have twice as much poison in your system, it's harder to recover. This is surely the case with drugs (such as when you OD). I don't think a victim should be able to recover from all the poison in just one round with two good saves. I also don't think you should be able to recover from the most recent poison first (which means the oldest poison might run out on its own).
What I would do is track the rounds of each poison separately. The first successful cure removes the first poison (the cure is usually a single save though it might be two consecutive saves). The next successful cure removes the 2nd poison. Any of the poisons might run out after their proper number of rounds. Neutralize Poison gets rid of all of them.
Example:
Joe is fighting two goblins. They have each put Black Adder Venom on their swords.
Round 1: Goblin #1 hits Joe and poisons him. Joe fails his save and takes 1 point of CON damage.
Round 2: Goblins miss. Joe rolls another save and fails. He takes 1 point of CON damage.
Round 3: Goblin #2 hits Joe and poisons him. Joe now has twice as much poison in his veins and it will be hard to overcome. He must make one saving throw. He fails, so he takes 2 points of CON damage.
Round 4: Joe rolls another save and finally makes it. The first poison is now cured. He still takes 1 point of CON damage from the second poison.
Round 5: Joe rolls another save and succeeds, curing the second poison. He takes no more CON damage.
It's a bit trickier than simply rolling two saves each round, but I think it's a more realistic model of what happens when you have dangerous substances flowing through your veins (although, making a Save and getting all better a few seconds after being poisoned is hardly a realistic model to begin with).
... not much to add; I agree with David's assessment.
Chris: For multiple doses, the +2 to save DC has the advantage of mirroring the "aid another" mechanic; however, most poisons listed in the Beta release are weak enough (1d2 Con/round for 5 rounds max) that I'd rather see multiple doses stack.
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Example:
Joe is fighting two goblins. They have each put Black Adder Venom on their swords.
Round 1: Goblin #1 hits Joe and poisons him. Joe fails his save and takes 1 point of CON damage.
Round 2: Goblins miss. Joe rolls another save and fails. He takes 1 point of CON damage.
Round 3: Goblin #2 hits Joe and poisons him. Joe now has twice as much poison in his veins and it will be hard to overcome. He must make one saving throw. He fails, so he takes 2 points of CON damage.
Round 4: Joe rolls another save and finally makes it. The first poison is now cured. He still takes 1 point of CON damage from the second poison.
Round 5: Joe rolls another save and succeeds, curing the second poison. He takes no more CON damage.It's a bit trickier than simply rolling two saves each round.....
DM_Blake, I hadn't thought of doing it this way - had so far been doing multiple saves each round since using the BETA rules - but I really like your idea.
Furthermo, it has a major advantage - LESS dice rolling per round. 1 save to rule them all. I've had instances when people were rolling 4 or 5 saving throws each round against the poison....and can be cumbersome - especially when it's extraneous to all the other attack and damage dice that is to be used during that character's turn.
Your idea is streamlined.
On the other hand, I see the suggestion of a cumulative -2 to saving throws as an alternative to this idea would be just as streamlined - but even if failed, it was still only doing the damage of one failed poison save.....and that might not make sense.
Robert
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'm not sure how to handle someone falling victim to more than one dose at a time. Presumably it's either two separate saves each round, or else a single save at -2.
I'm not sure where you're gettnig the idea of -2.
As Kirth noted, as an analogue to the "aid another" mechanic, with one dose of poison "aiding" the other.
I suspect the official word on this would be to treat it like two separate conditions (imagine if one were a poison and one were an ongoing spell - you would need two saves every round, right?). So two poisons works the same way. Two saves.
Me, I don't like that quite as much. I think if you have twice as much poison in your system, it's harder to recover. I don't think a victim should be able to recover from all the poison in just one round with two good saves. I also don't think you should be able to recover from the most recent poison first (which means the oldest poison might run out on its own).
What I would do is track the rounds of each poison separately. The first successful cure removes the first poison (the cure is usually a single save though it might be two consecutive saves). The next successful cure removes the 2nd poison. Any of the poisons might run out after their proper number of rounds. Neutralize Poison gets rid of all of them.
Let's create an injury poison called "Osquip Spoor" that has a low DC, say, 8. And we'll say it does something pretty nasty, like a point of DEX damage with a side effect of partial paralysis, so it looks like the victim is having a massive stroke. And we'll give it a duration of 6 rounds.
(The rationale behind this stuff is that it almost never works, but when it does work, it's nasty.)
So we give some of this stuff to a plucky little band of goblins and have them coat their arrows with it. They shoot the mid-level fighter, who has a pretty good Fortitude save. Six arrows hit.
Under your system, the fighter would be screwed, because he would not even get a chance to save against most of those doses. If he were to make his save every round, he would still take 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 15 points of DEX damage.
Put another way, simply delivering a double dose would guarantee that the poison takes effect for at least one round. It circumvents most of the idea of a saving throw.
I'm not sure how to handle someone falling victim to more than one dose at a time. Presumably it's either two separate saves each round, or else a single save at -2.
I'm hoping that the new rules shed some light on how to handle multiple doses.
I myself, in game (3.5 rules) have decided that each additional "dose" adds +2 to the save DC. Of course, this only works if more than one dose is delivered in the same round. If multiple doses occur over several rounds, then it's back to save for each dose.
Haven't had to deal with poison in Beta yet, but I think the interpretation should still work fine. But if doses are delivered over multiple rounds, it may be a little cumbersome.
I suspect the official word on this would be to treat it like two separate conditions (imagine if one were a poison and one were an ongoing spell - you would need two saves every round, right?). So two poisons works the same way. Two saves.
Me, I don't like that quite as much. I think if you have twice as much poison in your system, it's harder to recover. I don't think a victim should be able to recover from all the poison in just one round with two good saves. I also don't think you should be able to recover from the most recent poison first (which means the oldest poison might run out on its own).
What I would do is track the rounds of each poison separately. The first successful cure removes the first poison (the cure is usually a single save though it might be two consecutive saves). The next successful cure removes the 2nd poison. Any of the poisons might run out after their proper number of rounds. Neutralize Poison gets rid of all of them.
Let's create an injury poison called "Osquip Spoor" that has a low DC, say, 8. And we'll say it does something pretty nasty, like a point of DEX damage with a side effect of partial paralysis, so it looks like the victim is having a massive stroke. And we'll give it a duration of 6 rounds.
(The rationale behind this stuff is that it almost never works, but when it does work, it's nasty.)
So we give some of this stuff to a plucky little band of goblins and have them coat their arrows with it. They shoot the mid-level fighter, who has a pretty good Fortitude save. Six arrows hit.
Under your system, the fighter would be screwed, because he would not even get a chance to save against most of those doses. If he were to make his save every round, he would still take 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 15 points of DEX damage.
Put another way, simply delivering a double dose would guarantee that the poison takes effect for at least one round. It circumvents most of the idea of a saving throw.
Thank you for proving my point.
Ever heard of Killer Bees? A normal person with no allergies can be stung by a bee and they say "Ow! Gosh that stings" and then they go on with their lives. But killer bees don't let you go on with your life. They sting you over and over and over until there is so much bee venom in you that you die.
Your plucky little band of goblins is like that. One or even two of those arrows hit and it's irritating, but not at all life-threatening. But 6 of those arrows hit, and you're in a world of hurt.
I am glad you reinforced my point on this - I hadn't even consiedered how beautifully my poison theory worked in this situation.
Thanks!
DM_Blake, if I understand your take on multiple poisonings, you feel that it would be more realistic to treat multiple doses of the same poison with an increasingly harder save to reflect the cumulative effect of the poison, yes? I agree this is much more realistic, and maybe I'll try it sometime. For the time being, tho, I think I'll stick with one save per turn per poison effect, and treat each instance separately. Not as realistic I know, but hopefully easier to track. We'll see...
Not quite. I'm not for making the save harder, just rolling up all the doses into one save against the oldest dose. Save to remove it or not. The newer doses are protected until the oldest expires or is cured. All the effects of all doeses are still applied each round.
You're right, your way is easier, and I'm fairly sure it what the rules intend.
Thanks again to everyone for helping me grok this! :)
Thout art god.
My evil DM soul really likes the idea of a band of goblins nailing the PCs with multiple arrows. Of course, in most circumstances they won't all hit. There might still be a glorious moment of six hits and six failed saves though....
Another question. I'd like to use the Pathfinder rules for afflictions in the party's foray into the snake temple of Set, but the Bestiary won't be out for a while.
Anyone know what the vipers' poison will look like? My players plan to get snakebit over and over again, tho they may not yet realize it. I tried to compare the PF afflictions to the 3.5 spiders, scorpions, and giant wasps, but the PF afflictions and 3.5 poisons don't look like they line up systematically with the 3.5 monsters.
Black adder venom mirrors the venom of a Medium viper snake, so here's an extrapolation out for the other vipers. All the vipers do the same amount of damage; they vary only in the save DC.
Tiny viper poison (Level ? poison, injury; Save Fort DC 10; Frequency 1 round (6); Effect 1 Con damage; Cure 1 save)
Small viper poison (Level ? poison, injury; Save Fort DC 10; Frequency 1 round (6); Effect 1 Con damage; Cure 1 save)
Medium viper poison (Level 3 poison, injury; Save Fort DC 11; Frequency 1 round (6); Effect 1 Con damage; Cure 1 save)
Large viper poison (Level ? poison, injury; Save Fort DC 11; Frequency 1 round (6); Effect 1 Con damage; Cure 1 save)
Huge viper poison (Level ? poison, injury; Save Fort DC 14; Frequency 1 round (6); Effect 1 Con damage; Cure 1 save)
How's that?
To clarify my understanding, with poisons in PF, a character takes the listed damage each round unless he succeeds on a Fort save; after the (generally) first successful save (including the first save), the character takes no more damage from the poison. A Heal check can still stand in for a Fort save, but treating a snakebite takes a standard action.
This suggests that, officially, multiple doses should be saved against individually, as if a character has been struck by two different poisons.
It looks like for monsters, it would be easiest to use the damage listed under the Pathfinder afflictions section and the save DCs listed in the 3.5 SRD, since the Fort save DC is based on the monster's hit dice and Con bonus (presumably, the malevolent skill of poisonmakers refines the natural poison to a higher degree of lethality).
Unlike vipers, though, the venom of scorpions, spiders, and such use different dice of damage... probably reduce or increase the damage by one round per size category, minimum 2...?
I would probably just treat multiple poison attacks as individual saves and call it done. Otherwise you could run into situations where multiple types of poison are being used, which calls into question whether they should stack or not.
Plus, given the arbitrary nature of how saving throws get rid of poison in the first place (as pointed out by Blake), it doesn't seem too odd to me to have someone be able to shrug off, spit out, whatever the effects of multiple poisons in the same round. It's an odd mechanic to begin with, to be sure.
The ideas put forth are intriguing, but my preference would be to allow for a save against each poison type affecting the character every round until all are made. It's a little extra dice rolling, but how long do they take, really? /salute!
Here's what I'll be using for an imp's venom... it's pretty nasty stuff.
Poison (Ex): Injury; Fort DC 13, Freq 1 round (4); Effect 2 Dex damage; Cure 1 save.
Here's what I'll be using for an imp's venom... it's pretty nasty stuff. Poison (Ex): Injury; Fort DC 13, Freq 1 round (4); Effect 2 Dex damage; Cure 1 save.
Now I see why the pseudodragons are so easily able to keep them under control. Say a normal peasant (Commoner 1) with a 10 Dex and 10 Con gets stung. His save bonus is +0 (needs a 13, so he has a 40% chance to save). He has only a 13% chance to fail against 4 successive rounds -- one save ends the effects -- and even if he somehow fails all 4, he's still up and acting. He'd have to get stung, what, like ten times to have even a 50/50 chance of being paralyzed?
Currently I'm experimenting with using the new # of rounds mechanic, but the 3.5e damage, so that the imp's poison is DC 13, freq 1 round (4), damage 1d4 Dex (first round)/2d4 Dex (successive rounds). A poor fool who fails all 4 saves (very unlikely, but possible in theory) is taking 7-27 (mean 17) Dex damage. This tends to make poison a lot more scary -- as the poor characters that I ran through House of the Beast learned to their dismay (DC 18, 1d6 Con/rd. -- from a hail of poisoned arrows -- makes 6th level characters run for cover instead of just mooning the gnoll archers).
DM Blake's rule makes poisons a little too good imo. Six (or less) wizards/sorcs using crossbow bolts tipped in (any) poison, using the spell "True Strike", could basically kill anyone despite their level.
Anyway, PRPG is coming out soon so I'll have to use whatever rule is in their, no point in debating it now.
On the other hand, getting a little off topic, I've always wondered why (in D&D) using poison has always been considered "evil" and blasting someone's face off with a fireball or hacking their arm off was ok. In old versions of D&D, it always seemed that sneaky = evil.
Poison actually helps the enemy, not PCs so much. Who cares if you take 1-3 points of Dex from an enemy goblin. On the other hand, if the goblins start wearing the PCs down 1-2 stat points at a time, it would have a huge cumulative effect.
Poisonnnnnnnnn, poison, poison - Bell Biv Devoe
Related question about recovery from poison -
Are there different ratings for duration for different poisons; ie. some have lasting effects, whilst others are easier to recover from? We had one unlucky character get hit several times, losing 5 points of DEX by centipede poison. He had to wait 'til the next day for the cleric to get a Restoration in memory (to aid the daily recovery), and boy did he whine.
Can I get a Poison Damage and Duration 101 from anyone? I'm not sure I've got it right.
@ Kirth
I was thinking about 5 rounds for imp poison, but downgraded it to match the 3.5 damage dice.
Yes, I think there's some tradeoffs with this system... but I want to try a using afflictions because I suspect the Pathfinder venoms will be more exciting and cinematic for the players.
Poisons have never been much of a hassle in d20, because most the worst of it is on the second save. It's easy to survive a poisoning, kill the beasty, and then have the cleric treat you before secondary damage kicks in.
A 1st-level commoner would has a hard enough time harming a flying creature that has damage reduction, fast healing, and invisibility at will. He should be able to get a couple poison doses in, I hope, even against a decent party, with sound tactics in a dungeon.
He had to wait 'til the next day for the cleric to get a Restoration in memory (to aid the daily recovery), and boy did he whine.
I hope an encounter with a pair of wyverns would cure him of that.
It sounds like you played it right: poisons usually deal ability damage, which can be healed naturally or with spells. It can take a couple days to recover from a nasty poisoning, especially at low levels.
Remember that the Heal skill can increase the amount of ability damage recovered with rest, as well. The Restoration spell has expensive material components, but Lesser Restoration is free and a 2nd-level spell; it's indispensible.
It looks like the Pathfinder description of Restoration is a little ambiguous... it appears to be saying that Restoration only has a significant material component if you use it to remove a permanent negative level...?
Poisons have never been much of a hassle in d20, because most the worst of it is on the second save. It's easy to survive a poisoning, kill the beasty, and then have the cleric treat you before secondary damage kicks in.
That's how it always went for us, too. The "per round" mechanic, while less realistic (how many real-life poisons induce their full effects in under a minute?), makes for much better game play.
DM Blake's rule makes poisons a little too good imo. Six (or less) wizards/sorcs using crossbow bolts tipped in (any) poison, using the spell "True Strike", could basically kill anyone despite their level.
Only if the target fails all their saves. [Highly unlikely]
Only if the target is stupid enough to not take cover.[Highly unlikely]
Also, firing every other round isn't going to be very effective.
The "per round" mechanic, while less realistic (how many real-life poisons induce their full effects in under a minute?), makes for much better game play.
But the amount of "effect" is much lower per round; giving the target plenty of opportunities to pass a saving throw.
He had to wait 'til the next day for the cleric to get a Restoration in memory (to aid the daily recovery), and boy did he whine.I hope an encounter with a pair of wyverns would cure him of that.
It sounds like you played it right: poisons usually deal ability damage, which can be healed naturally or with spells. It can take a couple days to recover from a nasty poisoning, especially at low levels.
Remember that the Heal skill can increase the amount of ability damage recovered with rest, as well. The Restoration spell has expensive material components, but Lesser Restoration is free and a 2nd-level spell; it's indispensible.
It looks like the Pathfinder description of Restoration is a little ambiguous... it appears to be saying that Restoration only has a significant material component if you use it to remove a permanent negative level...?
oops...meant Lesser...
hadn't spotted that. it looks like I'm going to have to spend a lot of braincells going over the new spell descriptions (and new limitations) when the full game comes out. only one level restored per week? ouch.
Once per week? I hadn't seen that.
Our party has been going through Castle Ravenloft snorting the diamond dust like...well, y'know.
It seems fair, since you can remove the permanent negative level from raise dead. Rereading the spell it looks like restoration costs 100 gp of diamond dust, unless you remove a permanent negative level, in which case it costs 1,000 gp of diamond dust.
What I want to know is where these diamond dust factories are, and all about the profit margins.
Once per week? I hadn't seen that.
Our party has been going through Castle Ravenloft snorting the diamond dust like...well, y'know.
It seems fair, since you can remove the permanent negative level from raise dead. Rereading the spell it looks like restoration costs 100 gp of diamond dust, unless you remove a permanent negative level, in which case it costs 1,000 gp of diamond dust.
What I want to know is where these diamond dust factories are, and all about the profit margins.
I think Jason B has a monopoly on the diamond dust market, hence the amount needed for Restoration and Greater Restoration.
Once a week though...still a big ouch, considering some BBEGs can cause you to lose more than one level with one hit...ouch
Only if the target fails all their saves. [Highly unlikely]
DM Blakes system, you get only 1 save per round which can only remove 1 poison effect per round. If you were hit with 6 poisons in 1 round, you would be affected by at least 5 of them no matter what your fortitude roll was.
As Chris said, it would have the following effect over 5 rounds.
5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 15 points of stat damage.
If it was Bloodadder venom used (only level 3), that's an automatic 15 points of CON damage. Poisons that do INT or WIS damage would be even worse, depending on the target.
Only if the target is stupid enough to not take cover.[Highly unlikely]
Also, firing every other round isn't going to be very effective.
It only takes 1 shot from all six wizards and then they can take a coffee break and watch the target fall apart. They could run away after.
In any case, the point is that 6 1st level wizards can take down my level 20 fighter and there is nothing I can do about it.
In any case, no sense arguing about it, PRPG is here soon.
Only if the target fails all their saves. [Highly unlikely]
DM Blakes system, you get only 1 save per round which can only remove 1 poison effect per round. If you were hit with 6 poisons in 1 round, you would be affected by at least 5 of them no matter what your fortitude roll was.
As Chris said, it would have the following effect over 5 rounds.
5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 15 points of stat damage.If it was Bloodadder venom used (only level 3), that's an automatic 15 points of CON damage. Poisons that do INT or WIS damage would be even worse, depending on the target.
Only if the target is stupid enough to not take cover.[Highly unlikely]
Also, firing every other round isn't going to be very effective.
It only takes 1 shot from all six wizards and then they can take a coffee break and watch the target fall apart. They could run away after.
In any case, the point is that 6 1st level wizards can take down my level 20 fighter and there is nothing I can do about it.
In any case, no sense arguing about it, PRPG is here soon.
Maybe keep the damage constant per round, but raise the DC for later hits or extend the duration? We don't use a lot of poison in our campaigns so there may be holes in this idea.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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On the other hand, getting a little off topic, I've always wondered why (in D&D) using poison has always been considered "evil" and blasting someone's face off with a fireball or hacking their arm off was ok. In old versions of D&D, it always seemed that sneaky = evil.
I was under the same impression, but I think I was mistaken. The Poison spell, for example, doesn't carry the "Evil" descriptor. Paladins can't use poison, but there's a host of restrictions on paladin behavior that have nothing to do with evil.
The biggest difficulty with the new poison rules is a) too easy with only one save, and b) exponentially more difficult with more than one save (since all must be consecutive).
For instance, if you have a 70% chance of making the save on a 10 round poison that deals 1 damage (to whatever stat), you'll take an average of 0.43 points. With two consecutive required... wow.. time to calculate is beyond what I have available, but it looks to be over 1.0 average. After a few (not quite right) calculations, hmm.. okay ignore this part guys, let me get back to this.
It only takes 1 shot from all six wizards and then they can take a coffee break and watch the target fall apart. They could run away after.
Only if the target is stupid enough to not take cover.[Highly unlikely]
Also, firing every other round isn't going to be very effective.
I was thinking the same thing, but this could only apply to poisons that you fail the initial save on. So if you're shot 6 times, fail two saves - you'll take that damage, then automatically one the next round. Not quite as bad.
You could also combine the ideas above - instead of a DC increase but only one damage, you can do auto-damage until the last is saved against, but only a single damage.
Once a week though...still a big ouch, considering some BBEGs can cause you to lose more than one level with one hit...ouch
The Restoration limitation is only on *permanent* negative levels. Most creatures that energy drain do *temporary* negative levels, that become permanent after a day if you fail the save. So you'd have 24 hours to get help or make the saves, before you'd hit the restriction.
Six Wizard parties... Hmmm haven't seen too many of them!
I agree that each initial attack involving Poison allows a save. Thereafter, you get one save each round and slowly [if you're Fort save sucks] or quickly [if your Fort save is good] you remove the other individual doses.
*sigh of relief*
expensive, but at least doable
(still gonna read over the spells real careful when the book comes out. btwn events at Gen
Con! woo hoo!)
(still gonna read over the spells real careful when the book comes out. btwn events at Gen Con! woo hoo!)
Lucky lucky. Though I've got thursday and friday off, either for game store gaming or reading it (probably both).
What I want to know is where these diamond dust factories are, and all about the profit margins.
I think Jason B has a monopoly on the diamond dust market, hence the amount needed for Restoration and Greater Restoration.
Maybe he is an Athena's Saint (Knight of the Zodiac) from Siberia...
o.O
No one told me that poison was effective now.
Has anyone considered eliminating the Cure: x save(s)?
For instance:
GIANT WASP POISON
Level 4 poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 18
EFFECTS
Frequency 1 round (4); Effect 1 Dex damage
So once poisoned upon injury from the sting of a giant wasp, the victim would make one Fort save each round for four rounds. Period.
Would make poisons more deadly, or at least more dangerous, for sure.
I'm also wondering if this was done, would it make for simpler adjudicating of multiple doses? You could just tack additional dose durations onto existing durations.
For instance:
A fighter is in combat with a giant wasp and is stung on round one. At this point he'll have to make Fort saves for 4 rounds. On round three, he is stung again. Instead of having one 1 round left, the second sting adds 4 more rounds for a total of 5.
Doing it this way might make for a "back-door" way of making some of the weaker poisons more potent… kind of a way to "advance" a poison, similar to advancing a monster.
Now that's a fantastic idea.
I really like the idea of saving every round against poison... It'd make it dangerous, exciting, and still survivable. There'd be a lot of duration tracking and dice rolling, though.
It might make the use of the Heal skill a little awkward... since it seems like you'd have to have a cleric treating you for several rounds. But again, it increases the value of antitoxin. And it would reduce the ease with which parties shrug off poisoning.
High-level poisons might become really lethal, though. A pair of wyverns might be much tougher than at present.
The "per round" mechanic, while less realistic (how many real-life poisons induce their full effects in under a minute?), makes for much better game play.But the amount of "effect" is much lower per round; giving the target plenty of opportunities to pass a saving throw.
Currently I'm experimenting with using the new # of rounds mechanic, but the 3.5e damage, so that the imp's poison is DC 13, freq 1 round (4), damage 1d4 Dex (first round)/2d4 Dex (successive rounds). A poor fool who fails all 4 saves (very unlikely, but possible in theory) is taking 7-27 (mean 17) Dex damage.
Clear things up any?
Has anyone considered eliminating the Cure: x save(s)?
For instance:
GIANT WASP POISON
Level 4 poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 18
EFFECTS
Frequency 1 round (4); Effect 1 Dex damageSo once poisoned upon injury from the sting of a giant wasp, the victim would make one Fort save each round for four rounds. Period.
Would make poisons more deadly, or at least more dangerous, for sure.
I'm also wondering if this was done, would it make for simpler adjudicating of multiple doses? You could just tack additional dose durations onto existing durations.
For instance:
A fighter is in combat with a giant wasp and is stung on round one. At this point he'll have to make Fort saves for 4 rounds. On round three, he is stung again. Instead of having one 1 round left, the second sting adds 4 more rounds for a total of 5.Doing it this way might make for a "back-door" way of making some of the weaker poisons more potent… kind of a way to "advance" a poison, similar to advancing a monster.
This is fine for the low level poisons but would you really want to face Black Lotus extract with no cure option.
Black Lotus Extract
Level 14 poison, contact; Save Fortitude DC 20
Effects
Frequency 1 round (7); Effect 3 Con damage; Cure 1 save
Unless you are a druid or a monk or have a source of neutralize poison available this one is probably fatal nearly 100% of the time. Making 7 DC 20 saves is going to be hard or nearly impossible for most characters.
Doug
Sure... but it's a level 14 poison. You'd think a 14th-level party would be able to deal with something like that... or at least raise the deceased and learn their lesson. At level 14, the rogue should have something like a 25% or more chance to make the save each round.
I agree that high-level poisons might be too hard this way... but it seems like it would be a step in the right direction.
OTOH, 7-27 Dex damage seems a little excessive for a CR 2 monster, especially given the imp's other abilities.
I think I'll be playing it as close to the Pathfinder way as possible until we have a little more experience with the system.
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Has anyone considered eliminating the Cure: x save(s)?
For instance:
GIANT WASP POISON
Level 4 poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 18
EFFECTS
Frequency 1 round (4); Effect 1 Dex damageSo once poisoned upon injury from the sting of a giant wasp, the victim would make one Fort save each round for four rounds. Period.
Would make poisons more deadly, or at least more dangerous, for sure.
I'm also wondering if this was done, would it make for simpler adjudicating of multiple doses? You could just tack additional dose durations onto existing durations.
For instance:
A fighter is in combat with a giant wasp and is stung on round one. At this point he'll have to make Fort saves for 4 rounds. On round three, he is stung again. Instead of having one 1 round left, the second sting adds 4 more rounds for a total of 5.Doing it this way might make for a "back-door" way of making some of the weaker poisons more potent… kind of a way to "advance" a poison, similar to advancing a monster.
This is fine for the low level poisons but would you really want to face Black Lotus extract with no cure option.
Black Lotus Extract
Level 14 poison, contact; Save Fortitude DC 20
Effects
Frequency 1 round (7); Effect 3 Con damage; Cure 1 saveUnless you are a druid or a monk or have a source of neutralize poison available this one is probably fatal nearly 100% of the time. Making 7 DC 20 saves is going to be hard or nearly impossible for most characters.
Doug
Yes, I think that's fine. Poison should be deadly, and Black Lotus Extract should be extremely deadly!
Making 7 DC 20 saves is going to be hard or nearly impossible for most characters.
Since when?
There's a section on poisons in the new rogue preview
Belladonna
Type poison, ingested; Save Fortitude DC 14
Onset 10 minutes; Frequency 1/minute for 6 minutes
Effect 1d2 Str damage, target can attempt one save to cure a lycanthropy affliction contracted in the past hour; Cure 1 save
Wyvern Poison
Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 17
Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds
Effect 1d4 Con damage; Cure 2 consecutive saves
Fracking. Deadly.
This is fine for the low level poisons but would you really want to face Black Lotus extract with no cure option.
Black Lotus Extract
Level 14 poison, contact; Save Fortitude DC 20
Effects
Frequency 1 round (7); Effect 3 Con damage; Cure 1 saveUnless you are a druid or a monk or have a source of neutralize poison available this one is probably fatal nearly 100% of the time. Making 7 DC 20 saves is going to be hard or nearly impossible for most characters.
Doug
I think it is fine for any poison. My contention is: even the new rules for poison (in the Beta) aren't deadly enough. This level 14 poison won't kill the level 14 preview Valeros by itself unless he rolls very poorly. Or unless he is hit by more than one dose. It may kill some of his companions though.
There is always a Heal check as well as buying antitoxin . Investing in these greatly mitigates the danger of even my amped-up proposal. Black Lotus Extract doesn't look nearly so deadly anymore and we didn't even have to resort to magic. Speaking of magic, I'd say a spell like Neutralize Poison allows a caster level check until successful. It would put some bite back into those types of spells.
BTW, now that the rogue preview is up with an explanation of the new poison rules, I gotta say I like Paizo's take on how to adjudicate it with each additional dose increasing the DC by +2 and extending the duration by +50%, and increasing the damage.
There's a section on poisons in the new rogue preview
Belladonna
Type poison, ingested; Save Fortitude DC 14
Onset 10 minutes; Frequency 1/minute for 6 minutes
Effect 1d2 Str damage, target can attempt one save to cure a lycanthropy affliction contracted in the past hour; Cure 1 saveWyvern Poison
Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 17
Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds
Effect 1d4 Con damage; Cure 2 consecutive savesFracking. Deadly.
With respect to the Wyvern Poison, it should be. If the poison managed to last all six rounds, a victim would take an average of 15 Con damage… enough to kill a healthy man. That seems about right to me. And multiple stings… ouch! Hope you brought some antitoxin!
The PRPG rules for poison look good. Realize that you only have to make these saves if you failed your first saving throw. It should have some effect.
I have one question on the extension rule. If I'm on round 6 of a 6 round poison and I get hit by the same poison again, is this new dose treated separately or do I add on 50% onto my original poison (another 3 rounds only)?