Cleric / Paladin of a Dead God (Aroden)


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Sovereign Court

Neil,
I completely agree with you in that this is not meant to be arguementative at all. I am enjoying this discussion completely, both in person and on the forums :) Alizor and I decided that any lunch conversation with you would probably be amazing! And confusing to any easdroppers, hehe.

I also completely agree that the beta says that clerics can choose any two domains. However, paizo has stated that PFRPG is not golarion specific. Just as I would argue that clerics can do darn well what they please by 3.5 or pfrpg rules, and I would argue that paladins absolutely must have a god in, say, Faerun, I am basing the arguements in this thread on Golarion. Hence my insistence that clerics must have a god :)

I think this thread has definitely been an awesome thought experiment, and I have learned so much from everyones posts!

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Nani Z. Obringer wrote:
Alizor and I decided that any lunch conversation with you would probably be amazing! And confusing to any easdroppers, hehe.

Let's all do lunch sometime and test that theory! :-)

Nani Z. Obringer wrote:
I also completely agree that the beta says that clerics can choose any two domains. However, paizo has stated that PFRPG is not golarion specific....I am basing the arguements in this thread on Golarion. Hence my insistence that clerics must have a god :)

Does it say somewhere in the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting that all clerics in Golarion must have a god? I've been skimming it (and specifically the writeup on Clerics on pg. 43) and I haven't found anything asserting that yet.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
NSpicer wrote:
Nani Z. Obringer wrote:
Alizor and I decided that any lunch conversation with you would probably be amazing! And confusing to any easdroppers, hehe.

Let's all do lunch sometime and test that theory! :-)

Nani Z. Obringer wrote:
I also completely agree that the beta says that clerics can choose any two domains. However, paizo has stated that PFRPG is not golarion specific....I am basing the arguements in this thread on Golarion. Hence my insistence that clerics must have a god :)
Does it say somewhere in the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting that all clerics in Golarion must have a god? I've been skimming it (and specifically the writeup on Clerics on pg. 43) and I haven't found anything asserting that yet.

It doesn't, and I think that's our (At least I'm assuming you agree with me?) point. That although they don't show any clerics worshiping a philosophy, nowhere do they preclude it from the campaign setting.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Sounds like a good question to ask James Jacobs at the next Paizo chat on Tuesday night.


crmanriq wrote:
"When I entered the service of my god, I pledged my sword, my life and my honor in her service. Such an oath is not to be broken or amended. I do not know if my mistress is truly dead, or simply slumbering, waiting to rise again. I do know that for all the days of my life I will serve her. It is for theologians to debate where my powers come from, if not from her. I see it as a sign that she yet lives. Others may speculate to the theoretical nature of divine power, and bonds that cannot be broken. Yet even if she is truly gone, and she no longer has power to give me, my lady had allies and friends among the deities, and I suspect that they too might be honoring her by allowing me to act in her name."

Excellent. Just excellent. Inspiring, even. I might just play a Paladin of Aroden.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Crowheart wrote:
Excellent. Just excellent. Inspiring, even. I might just play a Paladin of Aroden.

Yeah, ditto on that.


Locke1520 wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

See this is an issue I still have. A paladin does not need a god, true. However, If a paladin has a god his power comes from that god, not his beilif alone. He was chosion by that god.

So if you say I am a paladin of Iomedae, Well then SHE grants you your power. If however your a self made paladin of pure virtue and righteousness then no god grants your ability . Or rather all gods do.

So if you say I am a paladin of Aroden your either 1> powerless or 2. Living a lie. I just have real issue with a paladin based off a lie. Sure he can be powered by the teaching but calling himself a paladin of Aroden is a lie.

Maybe not a lie...Rather the topic of IC philosophic debate.

What ever happened with your Paladins of Aroden? I might have a PC in my campaign wanting to do the same thing =) and it might be my fault because in my campaign writeup I said there were savage storms and some say "Aroden's soul might be stirring". heh. really like the idea. I was developing plans that dealt/explained his disappearance anyway.

Sovereign Court

Aroden wrote:
If I really were dead (don't believe everything the rainbow press writes to fill pages), my paladins would be as screwed as my clerics. The weaselese about "worship the idea of Aroden rather than Aroden himself" just doesn't work.

Stop pretending to be me :)

Grand Lodge

NSpicer wrote:

5) Asmodeus - For a more sinister approach, why not say that Aroden truly is dead, but Asmodeus has seized this opportunity to delude his priesthood into thinking he's still alive. Asmodeus could be the one granting their spells and abilities in an attempt to develop an entirely new line of followers.

Because it's not just about attracting new bodies it's about serving your portfolio. If Asmodeus is the power behind a revived Aroden clergy you'd be seeing signs.... a revised doctrine that exposes the "old Arodenic theology and ideals" as "flawed" heresy that would need to be stamped out... more advocacy of lawful evil ideals and a gradual swing towards Asmodeous himself. Or the intention would be to create a truly self-destructive cult from whom Asmodeus' clergy would "save" society from. Either way if the Big A were behind such a cult it would not be buisness as it used to be.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

I was thrilled to see this thread because I've actually been contemplating this, lately.

I'm going to be starting up a Council of Thieves campaign, and I thought it would be fun to play an Oracle of Aroden. It's been a while since I read the playtest rules (lazy), but I recall it saying that you picked a god only to have a reason for your focus. Aroden must fit this, somehow. I'll have to come up with another focus, as the ones they currently have don't really fit.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to nudge one of my players this direction, so it'd be fun to see what everyones' opinions on this would be.

Liberty's Edge

Drogon wrote:

I was thrilled to see this thread because I've actually been contemplating this, lately.

I'm going to be starting up a Council of Thieves campaign, and I thought it would be fun to play an Oracle of Aroden. It's been a while since I read the playtest rules (lazy), but I recall it saying that you picked a god only to have a reason for your focus. Aroden must fit this, somehow. I'll have to come up with another focus, as the ones they currently have don't really fit.

never read the class... but if there is need of a focus you could either use a minor holy item: like an sacred oild supposedly blessed by aroden Himself... or a perfect ruby... which is really the dry blood of Aroden.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

An Oracle's focus is kind of like a bloodline for a sorcerer. The best way to describe the class is that it's a charisma based divine caster. The concept is that, rather than choosing your god and bringing his word to the people, a god chooses you to be the vessel of his will on Golarion. You don't neccessarily know which god is giving you your powers. They even come to you via "revelations" as you go up in level.

The current playable foci (plural for focus?) are fire, water, air, earth, death and battle. Not very Aroden-like choices, really.

Unless I go with the Asmodeus idea posited above, in which case fire would work. Hmm...


If I recall your not really working for one god, so it's been hinted that not one single god gives you power. But more along the lines of drawing from a "pool" of power provided by all the gods or at lest those with your domain

I could be wrong but I could swear I heard some one Jason maybe say something to that degree. But as I said I may be mis recalling


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

If I recall your not really working for one god, so it's been hinted that not one single god gives you power. But more along the lines of drawing from a "pool" of power provided by all the gods or at lest those with your domain

I could be wrong but I could swear I heard some one Jason maybe say something to that degree. But as I said I may be mis recalling

Actually, it is right in the first couple of paragraphs describing the Oracle in the playtest document:

Quote:

Unlike a cleric, who draws his magic through devotion

to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many
sources, namely those patron deities that support their
ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend
to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs.

So basically, unless there was a domain or something that was unique to Aroden that no other gods could provide the power for, then having him as one of many for an Oracle is not a problem.

As for Clerics and Paladins, Aroden is dead. The connection to his divinity and power was severed a century ago, so a cleric is no more than a priest with no divine powers and a paladin is no more than a knight with no divine powers. You can still follow the ideals but you have no magic.


Enevhar Aldarion wrote:

So basically, unless there was a domain or something that was unique to Aroden that no other gods could provide the power for, then having him as one of many for an Oracle is not a problem.

As for Clerics and Paladins, Aroden is dead. The connection to his divinity and power was severed a century ago, so a cleric is no more than a priest with no divine powers and a paladin is no more than a knight with no divine powers. You can still follow the ideals but you have no magic.

Thanks I new I had read it somewhere. I agree on the cleric/paladin thing as well. They can call themselves what ever they like but are powerless

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Yep, I thought that's how it went. I also seem to remember, though, that you were supposed to pick one god as the one you "worship." I vaguely recall that being debated in the playtest thread, too. I probably ought to go read the class stuff that was put out. But, then, it's on a different computer, and there is the lazy part...

Anyway, I'm still liking the idea of an Oracle of Aroden. Even if a god has to be picked. Oracles are supposed to be a little "off," if I remember correctly, so stating that you worship a dead god could be pretty easy quirk to get away with.

Sovereign Court

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Thanks I new I had read it somewhere. I agree on the cleric/paladin thing as well. They can call themselves what ever they like but are powerless

I'm going to let my player be a Paladin of Aroden. It's a great roleplaying opportunity for him and a great storytelling opportunity for me. I was planning on having some some fun with Aroden's death in our campaign anyway... since there are so many unanswered questions.

Remember old Father Basri is still sitting on a load of Arodenite holy relics back in Oppara. =)

Are there definitive answers about where his portfolios went? I know it says most of his followers moved over to Iomedae but in Forgotten realms for example gods killed other gods all the time and would absorb their portoflios... There doesnt seem to be any concrete evidence of that with the Golarion faiths. or at least in the case of Aroden.


acidargyle wrote:


I'm going to let my player be a Paladin of Aroden.

Cool I respect your right to do so, I however would not. His god is dead. He gets no power. Being dulted enough to think he hears his god for me would brake it to me. He's nuts.

Arodens cleric lost all power, so would his paladins


Drogon wrote:

Yep, I thought that's how it went. I also seem to remember, though, that you were supposed to pick one god as the one you "worship." I vaguely recall that being debated in the playtest thread, too. I probably ought to go read the class stuff that was put out. But, then, it's on a different computer, and there is the lazy part...

Anyway, I'm still liking the idea of an Oracle of Aroden. Even if a god has to be picked. Oracles are supposed to be a little "off," if I remember correctly, so stating that you worship a dead god could be pretty easy quirk to get away with.

I am not seeing anything in the playtest that requires an oracle to pick a specific deity to follow. It even says this:

Quote:

Role: Oracles do not usually associate with any one

church or temple, instead preferring to strike out on their
own, or with a small group of like-minded individuals.

I can see your oracle being a little "off" and his small group of friends being a little "off" also.

The Focus is also not deity-specific, but rather attuned to a more open, vague concept than the worship of a deity. So you could come across a focus once used for a concept related to Aroden but not Aroden-specific.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Even better!

Thanks for finding all that for me.

Now I just have to find a suitable focus. I'm sure plenty of ideas were given in the playtest boards. I'll just go comb through them...


heh a mad oracle who "hears" Aroden speak to him would be fun. Go CN and have at it

Sovereign Court

It might be fun if the starstone was providing spells and whatnot to Aroden's faithful.

It made him a god, it gave him that power: whose to say it has taken it away just because he died. Nobody knows what the starstone's conception of divinity is.

I like the idea that the starstone is, in some unthinking way(or weirdly meta-cognitive state), being stubborn and cussed and refusing to let others interfere with what it has done.

Shadow Lodge

Where in PF does it say Clerics must worship a deity?

Pathfinder Society Oganized Play is not Pathfinder, in the sense that they are one and the same.


Beckett wrote:

Where in PF does it say Clerics must worship a deity?

Pathfinder Society Oganized Play is not Pathfinder, in the sense that they are one and the same.

From the Core Rulebook:

Quote:

While the vast majority of clerics

revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate
themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such
as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific
abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path
to selecting a specific deity.)

So basically, without the GM's approval, a cleric must follow a specific deity, mainly because there are no specific rules for doing it the other way and you and your GM will have to create them for your campaign world.

Shadow Lodge

Yes, but even the PF Campaign Setting has a few example philisophical groups. I read into the second page so far, and the idea seems to be hat it is not allowed in Galorian, which is false. It isn't allowed in PF Society play, but that is not Galarion.


Beckett wrote:
Yes, but even the PF Campaign Setting has a few example philisophical groups. I read into the second page so far, and the idea seems to be hat it is not allowed in Galorian, which is false. It isn't allowed in PF Society play, but that is not Galarion.

The Four PHILOSOPHIES in the book are a way of thinking, most have associated religions and do not grant domains or clerical powers by themselves. But often have clerics of gods that also follow them, They are simply a moral system and a way to live your life.

As far as I can tell you need a god to be a cleric in Golorian or you would still have clerics of "Aroden" casting on faith alone, faith alone is not enough as we know every single cleric of Aroden lost his power. Faith alone was not enough


Nani Z. Obringer wrote:

I have not yet seen an official cleric who is not of a god. While the books are silent on this matter, is it possible in Golarion to be a Cleric of the Sun, for example?

I think so. The shoanti Clerics (calles shamans) worship things like totems: natural forces, nature spirits (as in rivers, storms etc.), even ancestor heroes.

Seee PF #10, page 68.

Spoiler:

In this adventure there even is a shoanti who call himself "sun shaman", he is a druid however.


Enevhar Aldarion wrote:


So basically, without the GM's approval, a cleric must follow a specific deity

Of course.

But then again, basically, without the GM's approval, a character cannot do anything. You basically need GM's approval for your character.

But it's as easy as asking the GM if he's okay with a godless cleric, what favoured weapon you would have (if any), and if your desired combination of domains is okay.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Dogbert wrote:
Gark the Goblin wrote:
Are not.

Are too

Gark the Goblin wrote:
Are not.

Are too

Gark the Goblin wrote:
Are not.

Are too

Gark the Goblin wrote:
Are not.

Are too

...
...
...

Artoo!!! Ar-too!! Where'd that blasted droid run off to?!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Hyla Arborea wrote:
Nani Z. Obringer wrote:

I have not yet seen an official cleric who is not of a god. While the books are silent on this matter, is it possible in Golarion to be a Cleric of the Sun, for example?

I think so. The shoanti Clerics (calles shamans) worship things like totems: natural forces, nature spirits (as in rivers, storms etc.), even ancestor heroes.

Seee PF #10, page 68.

** spoiler omitted **

Note, PF #10 is pre-Pathfinder RPG. It's also pre-oracle.

Future Shoanti shamans will likely be oracles or druids. If they're clerics, they'll worship deities.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Hyla Arborea wrote:
Nani Z. Obringer wrote:

I have not yet seen an official cleric who is not of a god. While the books are silent on this matter, is it possible in Golarion to be a Cleric of the Sun, for example?

I think so. The shoanti Clerics (calles shamans) worship things like totems: natural forces, nature spirits (as in rivers, storms etc.), even ancestor heroes.

I've read through the entire thread on the subject (as well as several others) because I'm completely captured by the concept of Aroden and how it affects the cultures of Golarion, and makes very strong claims about the metaphysics of godhood. Gods can be created from mortals, and gods can die... or can they? All we know is that the clerics of Aroden have lost connection with their diety, some really bad things happened across the globe, and the consensus is that Aroden is no more. Now, of course we have the official cannon voiced that Aroden is dead and gone and is no more and (at least in terms of official releases) he will never return. That's cool, and of course is open to different interpretation in the home game, subject to every GM's ruling.

But beyond the subject of whether or not Aroden is dead, and assuming that he is and gone forevermore, I do think there's an interesting debate here around whether or not Clerics, Paladins, etc. can continue to call themselves 'of Aroden' and still gain powers as if Aroden were still around and giving these divine casters their powers.

One thing that I keep seeing in the debate is what appears to be a category error that is happening between whether or not a cleric/paladin who worships NO god but holds specific domains/philosophies is THE SAME as a cleric/paladin who worships a SPECIFIC god that then dies or ceases to be (or even just chooses not to give powers to their believers). To me, these are not the same, and they can be explained by several different ontological models.

I think the best model (and supported by the textual references made so far in all of the posts in this thread) is that *ALL* divine powers, by definition, come from one ore more deities--period. If a cleric/paladin chooses not to follow a specific god, but follows a philosophy or set of domains, their powers do not just arise from the world of perfect ideals (this is not Plato's world), but instead come from the gods that manage those domains that align with the cleric/paladin's beliefs. There's an appeal made to the pantheon around 'glory', and the gods that manage 'glory' say, 'okay, sure, you're a good kid, here's your powers'. Oracles are an extension of this idea - the whole pantheon ponies up some powers in support of this admirable individual who identifies/personifies what those gods personally support. If, however, all the gods that supported a specific domain were to just cease to be, it stands to reason that all those who are in alignment with those domains would lose their domain powers. So, a cleric that continues to TRULY believe they are following a specific god, and pray to that god to get powers, they aren't gonna get jack unless some other god takes pity on them (or wants to screw with them). So it is feasible that a cleric of Aroden will continue to get powers, but not because the cleric has anything to do with it, but rather because other gods want it to be.

Another model could be exactly the world of perfect ideals, where the gods themselves are just instantiations of the philosophical concepts, and only exist as personifications of some greater power/force. I don't think the campaign supports this model, but it's an option for individual GMs. In which case, those who worship dead gods would still be served by the world of perfect ideals because they are going straight to the source of godly power. We've seen at least one specific example of a cleric of Aroden losing their powers, and a bunch of text that speaks of the disintegration of the church of Aroden, so this model seems somewhat unlikely, if not directly contradicted.

If divine powers don't come from gods, and don't come from something behind the gods, then where else could they come from? Collective consciousness, individual belief (magic is the world created by our beliefs), etc. etc. but again, those who are true believers shouldn't lose their powers if this were the case.

What's left? An over-god, who makes decisions on its own whims. Again, not supported by the copy, but not directly contradicted. If you like this view, go for it.

I know this one's been beaten totally to death, but thanks for reading yet one more opinion on the subject :)

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