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Hey, was just having a discussion with Nani about the possibility of having a cleric of Aroden/Paladin of Aroden. As my understanding is for a Paladin, they don't specifically get their powers/spells from the gods themselves so there's no reason that you can't still have a Paladin of Aroden running around the world of Golarion. As for a cleric, shouldn't the cleric be able to worship his "portfolio" (as any cleric could be a cleric of an ideal) and call himself a cleric of Aroden... possibly waiting for his return?
Now at the same time, I do realize the Clerics of Aroden lost their spells when he died. Is it possible the reasoning for this was because they worshiped him... not the idea of him? I know it's a minor difference, but wondering how many people actually think it's possible...
Your game but I would say no on both accounts. Clerics would not gain spells at all as well he is dead. As far as I know the setting it's self does not say you cant have one of an ideal but it is kinda impleyed that do not work that way on that world. So I would say no.
On the paladin well he has been dead a long time and other gods have taken his paladin and his portfolios such as Iomedae who is his successor . so for me I would also say no. I would also not allow paladins without gods but that's just me.
From the PFCS P.47
"A paladin’s primary duty is to her deity, and she seeks to bring others to her way of thinking by example—through strength of faith, strength of mind, or, if all else fails, strength of arms."
"Paladins worship many different deities. The most common is Iomedae, the ascended goddess of valor and justice"
So it seems on Golarion a paladin MUST have a god.
Now if ya want to play a fighter or something with out the holy powers that believes that way go for it.
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A discussion? More like a heated argument.
First off, my decision as a DM would be absolutely not for Clerics. Anyone calling themselves a "Cleric of Aroden" is completely deluded and should not receive any spells. I've seen a PFS "Cleric of Aroden" who was actually not of the cleric class at all, which is ok. Clerics receive their spells from being the conduit to a god.
Also, in response to Alizor's other point, (having clerics just worshiping Aroden's ideals and receiving spells that way) I have not yet seen an official cleric who is not of a god. While the books are silent on this matter, is it possible in Golarion to be a Cleric of the Sun, for example?
As for Paladins, I would still say no, but it starts to get iffy. Technically pallies don't channel their god like clerics do, as I understand it. Yet still in Golarion I have not seen a paladin of no god.
In the end, I think it's going to come down to DM call, but we would love to hear some of your input. (ONLY YOU can prevent D&D fires in this house!)
Hey, was just having a discussion with Nani about the possibility of having a cleric of Aroden/Paladin of Aroden. As my understanding is for a Paladin, they don't specifically get their powers/spells from the gods themselves so there's no reason that you can't still have a Paladin of Aroden running around the world of Golarion. As for a cleric, shouldn't the cleric be able to worship his "portfolio" (as any cleric could be a cleric of an ideal) and call himself a cleric of Aroden... possibly waiting for his return?
Now at the same time, I do realize the Clerics of Aroden lost their spells when he died. Is it possible the reasoning for this was because they worshiped him... not the idea of him? I know it's a minor difference, but wondering how many people actually think it's possible...
From a roleplay perspective, this could be fun. I think, traditionally, folks have the unsuspecting character given powers from other, more malignant source. So this could be a route to take? I've also seen the concept made with a sorcerer, for example, so an "alternate" source is given, the character's just, of course, deluded... ;)
There's plenty of ways to incorporate dead gods into a game and it can add fun dimensions to storyline if the DM's up for it. There's an idea that I've had kicking around in my head a while. It's something like this...
Take the legend of Coyote. Coyote was a powerful spirit, or god, and was known by many different people, but he had several different names, stories, looks. It's possible, especially if taken from a more isolated culture, that a "local deity" (really an aspect of a larger god) might serve as something similar. Say, the local deity had passed on, and the character quests to find some artifact of the "greater shard" from whence the deity came to return to their people--so the "local deity" may again have powers and may again live.
Does that make sense?
The idea here is that the locals would need this shard because of how they operate--say, their way of worship demands some "physical" presence that's meaningful in a specific way. So by returning this shard (think artifact, miniature idol blessed by a Priest of Far Away, etc.), they're bringing life into their god again.
Which, really, is one of the greater gods. Just by a different name. They might also, like the Coyote legends, associate this "lesser local god" with certain people or stories, further personifying him or her in their culture (And then Coyote appeared in the guise of a great hunter, who had his eye on the chief's daughter...). But appropriate, of course.
Just an idea. :) I'm still waiting on my setting book. It's in the mail, but story's one of my favorite aspects of the game.
From Gods & Magic re: Aroden (p53):
Now his true clerics have migrated to Iomedae’s faith or live on without magic in the shadow of their former glory, with only a handful of doddering old human priests remaining (and an equal number of stubborn nonhuman priests). There are younger folk who claim to be of Aroden’s faith, but any magic they may have comes from an arcane source or perhaps from the few remaining magic items that haven’t yet been adopted or repurposed by the church of the Inheritor.
From the Beta regarding Paladins (p32):
A paladin prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does
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So I would say no true clerics of Aroden, and to my mind, paladins do gain their spells from their deity just as a cleric does, so no true paladins of Aroden either.
As gamer girrl has posted.
I have an elderly elven paladin of Aroden in my PBP as an NPC. He has no paladin spells and no powers. Instead I built him with some levels in another class that he acquired after the god's death.
From the Beta regarding Paladins (p32):A paladin prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does
I don't have my Beta stuff handy, but I just flipped through the 3.5e PHB (which I imagine is quoted more-or-less word for word on matters like this), and not only does that line appear in the paladin entry, but also in the ranger and druid entries. I'm pretty sure that refers exclusively to the gameplay mechanics, and not for restrictions on where said magic comes from.
That said, as far as Golarion goes, it seems to be pretty explicitly stated that you must have a god for both clerics and paladins. Personally, I think the former is a legit restriction and the latter is not. As has been said, it's your game; bending the rules is fine for cool concepts.
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I've seen a PFS "Cleric of Aroden" who was actually not of the cleric class at all, which is ok.
That would be me! :) I roleplay my character, Quintus Vespario, as a cleric of Aroden, but when it comes to game mechanics, he's nothing but a ranger (not yet high enough level for spells). At Paizocon, I acquired a few things which (I hope) will go far toward convincing npc's that I am indeed what I say I am. ;)
1] At the Harrow Reading during the interactive, I earned a free feat! I chose Skill Focus (Diplomacy).
2] I bought a wand of Cure Light Wounds. This will be strapped to Quintus' wrist, so observers will think that they see a cleric of Aroden actually healing people.
3] I earned the nobility title of Abra Duke (again, at the interactive). Hopefully, npc's will trust me more easily because of it. That title doesn't necessarily come with in-game benifits, but I'm sure going to roleplay the hell out of it!
So you can see I'm having a lot of fun with this character. I'm looking forward to more PFS events so I can see how far I can take this concept.
And if the people in question don't mind raiding the old 3.5 FR sourcebooks, Lost Empires of Faerun has a feat, Servant of the fallen, that allows clerics to gain spells from "dead" unworshipped deities.
While I can see this being denied in an official Paizo event or adventure, I see absolutely no reason not to chuck the books aside and run things the way the DM and players feel would be the most fun in your home games.
As far as I can tell, Aroden is only assumed to be dead in the Golarion setting. Pharasma certainly isn't telling IIRC, and thus that leaves some doubt. Who is to say that Aroden isn't simply biding his time, conserving his power by cutting off 99.9% of his clerics to both protect himself and lull his enemies into a false sense of security? Perhaps your PC is his chosen champion, the one mortal who in the face of being called mad by all who see him, will carry out Aroden's will, as part of a long-term plan to defeat his enemies and return to his rightful place? Perhaps your character is himself an aspect of Aroden, an autonomous piece of the god that was cut off at the time of his death, it's memories of divine existence suppressed, erased, or falsified by the trauma. Such a character might believe himself a mortal and venerate Aroden, gaining the powers of a cleric, but in truth drawing that power from within rather than without. Gods themselves cast cleric spells afterall, and having a character whose goal is to essentially die to bring back the god he was once part of is a really neat concept, IMHO (it is essentially the core plotline of my current homebrew campaign.)
Of course none of this is going to be official. The Pathfinder Setting relies rather greatly on the timeline not sliding overmuch so that the various adventure paths can be run in any order, so we can't really expect (and I certainly don't want) to see the canon history of Golarion move forward in a major way that might change the world and invalidate the previous setting. However, home games are entirely up to what the DM and the Players think would be cool, so I say, do what you will, so long as it is fun.
Quoting the PF Campaign Setting: "Some paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shelyn, but paladins who serve no specific god are actually more common." which means a paladin of Aroden is still pretty much fair game, if that's your actual calling... I mean, people still study careers like Art's History even now so why not? (lol j/k for those with an actual major in that).
Clergy, however, is another matter entirely, as golarian clerics require a functional, specific god so yeah, like Gamer Girrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl said, the remains of Aroden's clergy are nowadays powerless and resorting to arcane trinkets.
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Clergy, however, is another matter entirely, as golarian clerics require a functional, specific god so yeah, like Gamer Girrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl said, the remains of Aroden's clergy are nowadays powerless and resorting to arcane trinkets.
Just wondering where in the beta rules it says you have to worship a god? Page 22 under spells for clerics says nothing about a specific god. Also on page 22 it says "If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations."
This seems to match the core 3.5 rules of not having to worship a specific god. So what I am missing in the PRPG beta rules that requires a cleric to worship a specific god?
Thanks
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Clergy, however, is another matter entirely, as golarian clerics require a functional, specific god so yeah, like Gamer Girrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl said, the remains of Aroden's clergy are nowadays powerless and resorting to arcane trinkets.Just wondering where in the beta rules it says you have to worship a god? Page 22 under spells for clerics says nothing about a specific god. Also on page 22 it says "If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations."
This seems to match the core 3.5 rules of not having to worship a specific god. So what I am missing in the PRPG beta rules that requires a cleric to worship a specific god?
Thanks
The setting always trumps rules. In the setting godless clerics are out.
I always felt that the option of just choosing two domains is sort of an concession to those who feel uncomfortable with revering fictional gods.
The problem is that the gods are real in the game context - what are those "philosophies", then? Either there are abstract forces existing along the gods that have power as well - why revere gods at all then? Philosophies are less demanding, and give the same power.
Or these philosophies are in truth gods revered under a disguise, in which case the whole philosophy stuff is moot anyway. Both possibilities hinder my suspense of disbelief, so I don´t use philosophies in my game. It seems that Golarion does not use philosophies as well, judging from the treatment of Arodens remaining clerics.
Stefan
Quoting the PF Campaign Setting: "Some paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shelyn, but paladins who serve no specific god are actually more common." which means a paladin of Aroden is still pretty much fair game,
See this is an issue for me, If he calls himself that he is a lieing and is dishonest to himself and there for not a paladin. If you serve a god it called you. Aroden is dead. If you serve your own ideals thats fine ...yet Aroden IS dead there for saying you serve him is a lie.
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Quoting the PF Campaign Setting: "Some paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shelyn, but paladins who serve no specific god are actually more common." which means a paladin of Aroden is still pretty much fair game, if that's your actual calling... I mean, people still study careers like Art's History even now so why not? (lol j/k for those with an actual major in that).
Clergy, however, is another matter entirely, as golarian clerics require a functional, specific god so yeah, like Gamer Girrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl said, the remains of Aroden's clergy are nowadays powerless and resorting to arcane trinkets.
I would say both clerics and paladins are allowed. This is how I see it. All religions are hierarchical. There is a direct "line of faith" to the top, but to get actual favors, the priest asks of the bishop, the bishop asks of the arch bishop, etc. So too must be the distribution of energy and power. No one consciousness is going to be able to deal with thousands or millions of petitioners for power at the same time, especially if they all want to do it at dawn. Therefore, the power distribution going down the chain would be deity, immortals, celestials, then clerics. The immortals and maybe even the more powerful celestials would be able to regenerate their own raw positive energy, like a sorcerer who regenerates by sleeping. Then, there is the faith energy coming up the chain from clerics and followers which is converted into refined spell energy. This would be naturally less than normal, so the celestials and immortals will have to work harder for a while to "finance" the church's power pyramid. But, they would be able to empower a select few who stand out and generate the faith.
So Aroden has died. Many of those in the upper chain who served him might have also been hunted and slaughtered. But, if even just a few have survived, they could start rebuilding the church with a few chosen mortals. With "Imbue Spell Ability" or higher versions of that spell and the normal positive energy and spell distribution channels, they can rebuild the flock and regrow the church. Given time, focus and enough believers, who says you cannot resurrect a deity? It is the paladin's or cleric's faith in the deity that will fuel the resurrection of the deity. "He is not truly gone if you believe in him."
This is why, as an acolyte, you are taught that there are some ancient evils for which you do not even allow their names to cross you lips.
I would allow the paladin. I would even make it more interesting by adding the stipulation that he gets 3/4 of his normal spells and channel energy is he used them in private the previous day. But, if he used them in public displays and spreads the word of Aroden's pending return, he gets full or even bonus spell and channel energy to use.
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You know, not to change the subject or anything, there isn't really any reason you can't take this same idea and just not use the paladin or cleric classes.
Paladin is as much a title as it is a class in my opinion. You could easily be a fighter mechanically but in all ways act as a paladin of said dead god would. Pray daily, offer blessings, etc.
I tend to favor a more realistic approach to the religions of the world personally and not have gods and goddesses too easy to pin down or prove exist before faith.
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How about instead play a paladin/binder that binds Aroden's vestige (assuming he is now available as a vestige and not floating in the astral). There is a PRC in Tome of Magic that is perfect for this, Knight of the "something", that allows you to become more closely tied to a particular vestige. This relationship allows you get greater benefit from the vestige than you normally could. You could then easily worship and strive to maintain the ideals that Aroden stood for. The vestige abilities come directly form the Last Son of Azlant and your paladin abilities come from you worshiping his ideals and philosophies and stiving to live up the his standards.
I like it. I could see a whole order of these "Knights of Aroden". All we need is to create a vestige for Aroden. Shouldn't be too hard, I will get to work on it tonight.
Tam
Hey, was just having a discussion with Nani about the possibility of having a cleric of Aroden/Paladin of Aroden. As my understanding is for a Paladin, they don't specifically get their powers/spells from the gods themselves so there's no reason that you can't still have a Paladin of Aroden running around the world of Golarion. As for a cleric, shouldn't the cleric be able to worship his "portfolio" (as any cleric could be a cleric of an ideal) and call himself a cleric of Aroden... possibly waiting for his return?
Now at the same time, I do realize the Clerics of Aroden lost their spells when he died. Is it possible the reasoning for this was because they worshiped him... not the idea of him? I know it's a minor difference, but wondering how many people actually think it's possible...
I don't know the fine print on Golarion, but I don't see why not. Like you said, a cleric can devote themselves to an ideal; and could even be a cleric of an elemental power, a la Dark Sun.
One of the best game experiences I ever had was in a friend's homebrew, where I played a friendly and evangelistic cleric of a dead god. Every where I went I organized services amongst a skeptical population. (Isn't your god dead? How could I have rained righteous fury down on those hobgoblins and saved you if my god didn't exist?) I had a few tricks beyond a high diplomacy. I made good use of some spell... bestow power or bestow spell. I'd pick a young person that looked particularly into my sermon and do a kind of faith healing trick. I'd take their hand and literally "pass divine power" to them. Then I'd walk them through casting a divine spell in front of all their friends and family. Followed by inviting them to become members of the clergy. That one got a lot of mileage. After building a huge temple with adventuring money and winning a gladiator tournament in one of the largest cities in the world (Le'Or was a war god, and after I won I stone shaped his image into a giant statue and gave a sermon) I got the unique sensation of being not only the highest level cleric in a church; but the one who brought my god back to life by converting sheer numbers of people.
Quoting the PF Campaign Setting: "Some paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shelyn, but paladins who serve no specific god are actually more common." which means a paladin of Aroden is still pretty much fair game, if that's your actual calling... I mean, people still study careers like Art's History even now so why not? (lol j/k for those with an actual major in that).
Clergy, however, is another matter entirely, as golarian clerics require a functional, specific god so yeah, like Gamer Girrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl said, the remains of Aroden's clergy are nowadays powerless and resorting to arcane trinkets.
I would say both clerics and paladins are allowed. This is how I see it. All religions are hierarchical. There is a direct "line of faith" to the top, but to get actual favors, the priest asks of the bishop, the bishop asks of the arch bishop, etc. So too must be the distribution of energy and power. No one consciousness is going to be able to deal with thousands or millions of petitioners for power at the same time, especially if they all want to do it at dawn. Therefore, the power distribution going down the chain would be deity, immortals, celestials, then clerics. The immortals and maybe even the more powerful celestials would be able to regenerate their own raw positive energy, like a sorcerer who regenerates by sleeping. Then, there is the faith energy coming up the chain from clerics and followers which is converted into refined spell energy. This would be naturally less than normal, so the celestials and immortals will have to work harder for a while to "finance" the church's power pyramid. But, they would be able to empower a select few who stand out and generate the faith.
So Aroden has died. Many of those in the upper chain who served him might have also been hunted and slaughtered. But, if even just a few have survived, they could start rebuilding the church with a few chosen mortals. With "Imbue Spell Ability" or higher versions...
Not to bring in 4e to the argument, but this is also in issue in the LFR campaign setting, with clerics and paladins of Mystra. (LFR has recently specifically ruled out both, but their error is not germane to my post <g>).
I can very much see a player/character taking this position:
"When I entered the service of my god, I pledged my sword, my life and my honor in her service. Such an oath is not to be broken or amended. I do not know if my mistress is truly dead, or simply slumbering, waiting to rise again. I do know that for all the days of my life I will serve her. It is for theologians to debate where my powers come from, if not from her. I see it as a sign that she yet lives. Others may speculate to the theoretical nature of divine power, and bonds that cannot be broken. Yet even if she is truly gone, and she no longer has power to give me, my lady had allies and friends among the deities, and I suspect that they too might be honoring her by allowing me to act in her name."
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Zootcat, HI!!! It was such a pleasure meeting you. I'm still trying to connect people I met at Paizocon to their forum names.
Everyone else, thank you so much for your responses. I realize that while Beta states that you can just pick domains, like 3.5, I'm looking more specifically to Golarion. I agree with what's been said, I feel like picking domains is just a cop-out. I run my games on the assumption that the GODS ARE REAL, not like real life (cause real life is boring), and that is not even subject to debate. I also run my games on the assumption that Aroden is dead and he aint coming back, which I believe is the official word from Paizo. Lastly, there's several supplements out there that address this (Malhavoc Press Requiem for a God, etc.), but I'm probably not going to bring them into this at all.
The real question is, in Golarion, does a Cleric NEED a God? In the campaign setting page 47, as said earlier in this thread, "paladins who serve no specific god are more common". In this case, I am willing to accept a player as a Paladin of Aroden (as long as the Pally knows his god is dead). On the subject of cleric though, the campaign setting makes it sound like you need a god, but doesn't explicitly say one way or another.
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Quoting the PF Campaign Setting: "Some paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shelyn, but paladins who serve no specific god are actually more common." which means a paladin of Aroden is still pretty much fair game,See this is an issue for me, If he calls himself that he is a lieing and is dishonest to himself and there for not a paladin. If you serve a god it called you. Aroden is dead. If you serve your own ideals thats fine ...yet Aroden IS dead there for saying you serve him is a lie.
Just out of curiosity, why can't you serve a dead god? It is fantasy...
And since you can serve ideals, why can't you serve the ideals of a dead god? As far as lying to himself, it is simpler to say "I am a Paladin of Aroden," than to say "I am a Paladin to the ideals of the dead god Aroden." If the character understands the difference how is it lying?
It is like calling the sky blue... the sky is not blue, it is cyan, there is in fact a distinct difference, yet no one complains about lying when someone says the sky is blue.
That being said, I would not allow it in my game, only because I have already made some plans concerning Aroden.
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Quoting the PF Campaign Setting: "Some paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shelyn, but paladins who serve no specific god are actually more common." which means a paladin of Aroden is still pretty much fair game,See this is an issue for me, If he calls himself that he is a lieing and is dishonest to himself and there for not a paladin. If you serve a god it called you. Aroden is dead. If you serve your own ideals thats fine ...yet Aroden IS dead there for saying you serve him is a lie.Just out of curiosity, why can't you serve a dead god? It is fantasy...
And since you can serve ideals, why can't you serve the ideals of a dead god? As far as lying to himself, it is simpler to say "I am a Paladin of Aroden," than to say "I am a Paladin to the ideals of the dead god Aroden." If the character understands the difference how is it lying?
It is like calling the sky blue... the sky is not blue, it is cyan, there is in fact a distinct difference, yet no one complains about lying when someone says the sky is blue.
That being said, I would not allow it in my game, only because I have already made some plans concerning Aroden.
And to me that's how I feel. No matter whether you're serving the ideal of the god, or the god itself, you're still serving the same "thing." The consciousness of Aroden may truly be dead or gone or hiding or whatever, but the ideals that he lived for lived on. Most of that per the campaign setting was taken up by Iomedae, but a small portion of that is probably still floating out there in the nether.
I knew that the campaign setting specifically mentioned that paladins didn't require a god, it was more of a question for a cleric. Since I actually don't remember any specific statement saying that clerics require a god, but all clerics I have seen in Pathfinder, whether from lore, books, or anything have had a god.
It's worth noting that in D&D, being dead doesn't pose that great an obstacle to gods exerting influence or reappearing.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I don't see why a paladin, or even cleric, would necessarily have to admit and believe their god is dead. For humans it's sort of tough to justify someone having been around 100 years ago to experience his death, but other races have clerics and paladins who may remember it. In any case, one could believe wholeheartedly (thus not being dishonest or deceitful) that they are worshiping Aroden when in fact their powers come from the ideals he stood for. Since direct contact between deities and mortals is extremely rare in Golarion anyway, how would they ever know that they're really worshiping the concept of good and valor instead of a god who embodies good and valor? Perhaps commune spells don't ever work right, and no matter how many times they try to summon a planar ally from Aroden's court to assist them they never come. But there are plenty of crazy people in the real world who can't admit that things have changed in their lives or the world as a whole, and while a fantasy environment adds in a major reality check for one of these people (in that they no longer get spells or whatever) there is a stopgap built into the rules with being a paladin/cleric of an ideal. I wouldn't want to limit a player's creativity if they came up with an awesomely delusional cleric of Aroden, so I'd let it go, as long as both the player and I were on the same page about how it worked and to what extent their PC would work differently than the standard, living-deity-worshiping PC of their class.
Funny enough, nobody has mentioned Father Basri yet. He is the last Archbishop of Aroden in Oppara (Taldor, Echoes of Glory p. 21). He seems to have lost all clerical power, but he is steadfast in his believe (and has begun to talk about Aroden's return lately). I think he is good example of someone who hasn't adapted yet.
As for paladins, if it is possible that they need not serve a specific god, then there can be a paladin of Aroden.
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So, where did I put this blasted key?
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I'll weigh in...because I've actually had similar thoughts about clerics and paladins of Aroden. We have such useful information about him in the PFCS, including his domains, favored weapon, alignment, backstory, you-name-it...everything to run a cleric or paladin of Aroden. But there's the whole "he's dead and ain't comin' back" line as official canon from Paizo. So, if you're a player who's motivated by the write-up of Aroden to imagine a PC around him...what can you do?
I agree with what lots of other folks have said so far regarding your options. Personally, I never like to say never. Thus, I like to imagine a day when Aroden could return. In a game where PCs can be raised and resurrected, who's to say something couldn't be done to return a dead god to life? "Killed on his home plane" is the reason that most springs to mind. But is that what happened? It doesn't have to be. I don't like closing that door. And I wish Paizo had left it open, because the concept of Aroden is one of the most inspiring elements of the whole campaign setting. It has literally shaped Golarion and its history.
So, my initial preference is to say Aroden isn't irrevocably dead. He could return. And thus there are still followers loyal to him, trying to eke out a spiritual existence. Mechanically, I'd like to say former-clerics and priests of Aroden continue to cast spells and channel positive energy...but they do so from a surrogate source in Aroden's absence. The best examples I could define for it would involve another divine being stepping in. For instance:
1) Iomedae - Although she's picked up much of Aroden's portfolio and claimed it as her own, she could still be granting the divine energy necessary for clerics and paladins who continue to revere Aroden.
2) The Empyreal Lords - Presumably one of these angelic beings could have adopted Aroden's clergy, dispensing spells and guidance without seeking to replace Aroden's name with their own. One of these lords may even be guiding Aroden's faithful to try and resurrect him. Andoletta or Ragathiel seem best suited for it.
3) Pharasma - The goddess of death supposedly knew something about Aroden's passing, but has not seen fit to share that information. Why? And, is it possible that in Aroden's absence, the Lady of Graves now shepherds his faithful while his divinity hangs in the balance?
4) Milani - This goddess is slightly less well known than Iomedae, but she too was a minor saint associated with the Last Azlanti. So I think she could have picked up Aroden's followers in an attempt to perpetuate the hope of his return. After all, "hope, devotion and uprisings" are all part of her portfolio. So championing something like that would make complete sense for her. She's a Chaotic Good goddess, as well, so operating "outside the rules" seems like something she'd favor. She also has the Healing domain as a major part of her portfolio, so caring for the spiritual wounds of Aroden's priesthood might resonate well, too.
5) Asmodeus - For a more sinister approach, why not say that Aroden truly is dead, but Asmodeus has seized this opportunity to delude his priesthood into thinking he's still alive. Asmodeus could be the one granting their spells and abilities in an attempt to develop an entirely new line of followers.
I think that gives you five good surrogates for how and why a paladin or priest of Aroden could continue to exist and still keep their abilities. Some of the other gods may even be cooperating to support such a thing...perpetuating a lie to Aroden's followers, but doing so for a potentially good reason.
Also, I really like the idea of a group of Aroden's followers and new clergy starting with Use Magic Device as a class skill. Then, a lot of Aroden's faith will be perpetuated around reclaiming the magic items and artifacts associated with the faith...because much of their actual power comes from the divine energy still stored in such devices. I think that would be a nice mechanical touch to include for a priest or paladin of Aroden. And then, as a GM, I'd look for ways to introduce quests for such things...because they'd be so integral to advancing the divine power of such PCs. It just wouldn't be coming from the god himself anymore. Scrolls, wands, potions, minor magic items galore would all take center stage.
But that's just my nickel's worth,
--Neil
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5) Asmodeus - For a more sinister approach, why not say that Aroden truly is dead, but Asmodeus has seized this opportunity to delude his priesthood into thinking he's still alive. Asmodeus could be the one granting their spells and abilities in an attempt to develop an entirely new line of followers.
I have toyed around with a cult of Norgorber posing as worshipers of Aroden, or even one of his clerics claiming to be him reborn. His hidden past, fractured motivations, and secretive, deceptive nature seem to fit very well with this sort of subterfuge. I imagine granting spells would only be for those who were in on the joke though, as an evil deity shouldn't be able to grant spells with the good descriptor (at least not in my book) and that would tip off the good clerics out there.
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Is it not possible for Aroden's Divine Spark(what made him a god in the first place) is currently still active? If you are okay with it, do you remember the Temple Cayden went to and became a god? If the Spark is active and the cleric is gaining spells(from 'Aroden'), he could go to said temple and become Aroden's replacement.
Just a thought.
EDIT: By replacement I meant Iomadae could be the god of her own worshippers, instead of a second-choice by the clerics of the deceased(?) Aroden.
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Perhaps the player charachter is the "Last Paladin" of Aroden. Somehow the PC was born with just a very small portion of the God's power and this allows the PC to function as a small reminder of the glory of the god.
This makes the character unique. It allows the DM to accomidate a player, without alot of need for support material.
"The Last Paladin of the Last Azlanti."
Poetic.
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Also, I really like the idea of a group of Aroden's followers and new clergy starting with Use Magic Device as a class skill.
Yes, that's the direction that I'm taking with Quintus Vespario (see above). He might be able to convince people that Aroden is alive by judicious use of Use Magic Device. I can't wait for another opportunity to play him again!
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I am playing a Paladin of Aroden in CoCT. My DM and I decided he would not get spells as we felt those come directly from the god, but his other abilities work. He is a fun character to play as he tries to preach the ideals of Aroden. Most people think he is insane but he was starting to acquire a small following at the church of Aroden in Old Korvosa, of course that didn't turn out well after certain events.
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Is it not possible for Aroden's Divine Spark(what made him a god in the first place) is currently still active? If you are okay with it, do you remember the Temple Cayden went to and became a god? If the Spark is active and the cleric is gaining spells(from 'Aroden'), he could go to said temple and become Aroden's replacement.
Just a thought.
EDIT: By replacement I meant Iomadae could be the god of her own worshippers, instead of a second-choice by the clerics of the deceased(?) Aroden.
There's nothing stopping anyone from running their players through the Test of the Starstone, but then we're talking epic play, and not really the low- to mid-level adventuring I think most on these boards (and certainly anyone playing a Pathfinder AP) would be interested in. Once you've attained minor godhood yourself by entering the epic realm, then why would you need a patron deity (dead or alive)? You will have a tough time passing 20th level without someone granting you spells, though.
I'll weigh in...because I've actually had similar thoughts about clerics and paladins of Aroden...
Interesting stuff Neil. I'm partial to either Asmodeus or an Empyreal Lord granting the abilities. The options make for very different stories, but I think either of those are the most compelling. Though the Pharasma source has some good possibilities too.
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Interesting stuff Neil. I'm partial to either Asmodeus or an Empyreal Lord granting the abilities. The options make for very different stories, but I think either of those are the most compelling. Though the Pharasma source has some good possibilities too.
Personally, I'm kind of partial to Milani. I've been doing a small bit of research and thinking on the Everbloom's faith...and even tapped her for a brief mention in Guide to the River Kingdoms. Both she and Iomedae were once minor saints affiliated with...and supportive of...Aroden, after all. And, with Iomedae choosing one path (i.e., absorbing Aroden's faith into her own clergy)...I could easily see a Chaotic Good goddess like Milani taking the other path (i.e., surreptitiously answering the prayers and rituals of Aroden's few remaining devotees). I just think that dovetails really well with Milani's portfolio of...
1) Hope - The Everbloom represents the ever-present hope that the flame of Aroden won't die out just because the god passed away. And, as such, she might feel compelled to honor that memory by continuing it for those who still hope for his return.
2) Devotion - As a champion of the importance of devoting one's self to a particular cause and set of ideals, I could see Milani favoring the fervent, persistent devotion of Aroden's remaining priesthood.
3) Uprisings - Although Milani mostly characterizes people rising up to throw off tyranny, I can imagine she might favor a bit of an uprising within Aroden's former clergy to reclaim what Iomedae has "stolen" away by super-imposing her faith over his worshippers. It's not quite as big a tie-in as her "hope" and "devotion" tenets, but I think a good GM could still work with it. Also, I find it kind of amusing to imagine a Lawful Good paladin or priest of Aroden unknowingly receiving answers to their prayers from the Chaotic Good Milani. It's a nice bit of irony. Still good, of course. But Milani's the total rebel that might try and pull that off.
But that's just my two-...er, three-cents,
--Neil
Personally, I'm kind of partial to Milani. I've been doing a small bit of research and thinking on the Everbloom's faith...and even tapped her for a brief mention in Guide to the River Kingdoms. Both she and Iomedae were once minor saints affiliated with...and supportive of...Aroden, after all. And, with Iomedae choosing one path (i.e., absorbing Aroden's faith into her own clergy)...I could easily see a Chaotic Good goddess like Milani taking the other path (i.e., surreptitiously answering the prayers and rituals of Aroden's few remaining devotees). I just think that dovetails really well with Milani's portfolio of...
1) Hope - The Everbloom represents the ever-present hope that the flame of Aroden won't die out just because the god passed away. And, as such, she might feel compelled to honor that memory by continuing it for those who still hope for his return.
2) Devotion - As a champion of the importance of devoting one's self to a particular cause and set of ideals, I could see Milani favoring the fervent, persistent devotion of Aroden's remaining priesthood.
3) Uprisings - Although Milani mostly characterizes people rising up to throw off tyranny, I can imagine she might favor a bit of an uprising within Aroden's former clergy to reclaim what Iomedae has "stolen" away by super-imposing her faith over his worshippers. It's not quite as big a tie-in as her "hope" and "devotion" tenets, but I think a good GM could still work with it. Also, I find it kind of amusing to imagine a Lawful Good paladin or priest of Aroden unknowingly receiving answers to their prayers from the Chaotic Good Milani. It's a nice bit of irony. Still good, of course. But Milani's the total rebel that...
Ok, I can see Milani's reasons and the interesting twist of a chaotic god giving a paladin his divine abilities, but where does the story go once the player(s) find out?
With an Empyreal Lord, the player can try to further whatever things need to be set in motion in order for Aroden to get raised. For Pharasma, there's all kinds of interesting ways the plot can go since Aroden's divinity hangs in the balance and perhaps the players can help with setting the divine judgement on course or making sure Aroden's achievements are judged properly.
But what happens when the players find out it's Milani granting them their abilities? I'm sure some soul searching is in order, but from then on they're stuck with changing gods or struggling with some inner turmoil about where their divine abilities come from. I suppose it just doesn't quite draw me in like some of the other possibilities.
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I'm pretty much fine with Paladins getting their powers from Iomedae, but speaking the old prayers to Aroden that they learned from their mentors.
Since the setting highlights that even Aroden's high priest has lost his powers (and that most have moved over to Iomedae), I'd do the same thing that I do for 'Clerics' of Razmiran, if I wanted to play a 'Cleric' of Aroden.
I'd use a Bard with Perform (oratory). Some healing spells, some inspiring religious speechifying, some other random buff spells, enough armor and weapons access and BAB and Hit Dice to not be mistaken for a Sorcerer, etc.
Alizor, there's a feat in FR ('Servant of the Fallen') that lets you worship a dead or slumbering deity and receive your spells normally. If I was your DM, I would probably do it that way.
That is one feat I Banned. However it should be noted the gods it list in the feat are NOT dead. They are forgotten, depowered mere shadows of gods, yet are not dead. They have no worshipers, and very little real powers something less then a demi-god at times but NOT dead.
Just out of curiosity, why can't you serve a dead god? It is fantasy...
And since you can serve ideals, why can't you serve the ideals of a dead god? As far as lying to himself, it is simpler to say "I am a Paladin of Aroden," than to say "I am a Paladin to the ideals of the dead god Aroden." If the character understands the difference how is it lying?
It is like calling the sky blue... the sky is not blue, it is cyan, there is in fact a distinct difference, yet no one complains about lying when someone says the sky is blue.
That being said, I would not allow it in my game, only because I have already made some plans concerning Aroden.
I'll tell you why, his faith comes from Aroden, his power comes from his faith. His power is a lie, he is diluted and based off false hope, off a lie of his own making.
He can say he is a paladin of the teaching of fallen aroden but saying e is a paladin of aroden is a lie. He lies by showing "power" of something that is not there.
So to me I would never allow it.
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Also as a note, this is more of a thought exercise / argument as I wasn't planning on making one, but the idea came up and Nani and I had... differing opinions.
I do like the suggestions though, on both ends. I think I still lean towards the "letting it happen" than not, but Neil's list of things really made my head start thinking about possibilities... especially from a DMing perspective.
If I really were dead (don't believe everything the rainbow press writes to fill pages), my paladins would be as screwed as my clerics. The weaselese about "worship the idea of Aroden rather than Aroden himself" just doesn't work.
If I really were dead....
So, then...
...the rumors of your death have been greatly exaggerated.
:-D
...but where does the story go once the player(s) find out?
Hmmmm...you know, I seem to recall a similar question coming up with a certain malicious bard that liked to set up legend-making "opportunities" for her adopted heroes-in-making. What would happen once the player(s) find out she's the one responsible for everything bad that happened? Most people thought that would be the end-game scenario for her. But...
I'm a firm believer in the notion that the story can go wherever you want to take it. Part of my potrayal of Sharina Legendsinger was meant to demonstrate that. Don't just go with what's "accepted"...but rather look beyond that to what's "possible"...
So what if the player(s) and the paladin finally learn that Milani has been the divine being granting his spells and abilities? To me, that sets up a great moral dilemma. Does the paladin abandon her patronage and finally turn to Iomedae? Does he completely abandon his faith and ultimately suffer a fall-from-grace to become an ex-paladin? Does he suck it up and decide he'll uphold the virtues he's always embraced without Milani's divine powers? Or is he maybe high enough level at that point in his adventuring career that he decides it would be better to stop looking to Aroden or Milani or Iomedae or any other god or goddess and move on to take the test of the Starstone to see if he can ascend to divinity and carry on Aroden's faith himself?
To me, the possibilities are endless. And, as a GM, I'd be happy to run a player through any or several of those directions. And maybe, just maybe, if that paladin did pass the test of the Starstone to become a god, perhaps his own eyes would finally be opened enough for him to determine what truly happened to Aroden. And, in that case, would it be that he'd finally be able to search out his god and awaken or resurrect him? Or, would he finally learn that Aroden truly has passed on...and now it falls to him to carry on the faith as the newest deity on the block?
All of that could take place, regardless of who answered his prayers during his formative years as an adventuring paladin. This kind of question is the exact kind of thing that gets me stirred up and eager to take on the challenge of making something workable out of it. And, I perceive so many options in front of me that I'd have a hard time choosing just one of them to implement in my own campaign with a player like that.
--Neil
Ok, see that's why you're an RPGSuperstar and I'm not. For me, the creative juices for me only go so far and the Pharasma or Empyreal Lord ideas seem easier to work with.
However, once you figure it out, let me know...it sounds like a fun campaign.
(EDIT: Nevermind, get back to work on Fellnight Queen! You can write up this afterwards)
LOL! Right you are. Back to the Starstone...I mean, grindstone!
Just wondering where in the beta rules it says you have to worship a god?
I know the both the game and default d20 state that clerics can follow either a god or an ideal, but when we talk about separate campaign settings, each setting has its own rulings on particular subjects, like FR, where even -rangers- had to forcefully follow a god (I hated that soooo much).