Literalism & CourtroomsDM_Blake, there is one serious flaw in your argument for checking every space, punctuation, etc; the rules as written, do not support your side of the argument.
You reference the number of times the word "day" is used in regard to spell casting seem to be the only RAW argument that you have against the RAW quote that allows preparing spells after 8 hours of rest and against the Sage's ruling.
Unfortunately, the book does not define what the word "day" means. One might assume that it means 24 hours, but that wouldn't hold up in your courtroom example. Courts of law require words to be defined within their specific context to be given meaning.
Again, going back to the literal, courtroom example, you can not infer meaning that isn't explicitly stated. It may make more sense for "day" to be considered roughly 24 hours but that is not what is stated in...
Hogwash.
In a court of law, terms like "day" are defined as public knowledge.
When a Judge sentences you to 90 days of jail time, he is not required to stipulate that a day "is defined as 24 hours, or 1,440 minutes, or 86,400 seconds, or 0.002737850 of an early revolution around the sun".
If you have a contract that requires you to meet a stipulated agreement within 180 days, that contract dosn't require day to be defined either, although some contracts might define "working day" to exclude Saturdays and Sundays, or some such other clarification - but then they're still not defining the word "day".
The rule book is full of undefined words. Words like "sword", "bow", "fire", "human", etc., are all undefined.
We players take them to mean exactly what the rest of the world takes them to mean unless the book specifically gives us reason to understand these words differently.
This includes "day". It means 24 hours unless otherwise stipulated. Or if you prefer, it means "the period of revolution of the game world upon its axis."
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Sorry I think desperate may have been the wrong word. I didn't mean like a whipped dog, as much as really focused on something being proven by the exclusion of any evidence to say it can or can't be done.
I tried to point out that it benefits everyonepretty equally. If everyone rests, than tanks get healed, too. Casters get spells back, put so does everyone that has a multiple daily ability, from item, race, or class.
Think about that for a little while. Why is that so wrong? The dm controls if they have that option by encounters and allowing them to even find a location, and if there are any time limits, the party still has to worry about them.
Sorry I think desperate may have been the wrong word. I didn't mean like a whipped dog, as much as really focused on something being proven by the exclusion of any evidence to say it can or can't be done.
Well, actually, "can or can't be done" is very subjective. Regardless of RAW or RAI, the DM can always houserule whatever he wants - hopefully with player buy-in so everyone is happy.
All the debates I get into here seem to revolve around one of two things:
Either players misinterpret, or have questions about the rules, and I try to help them to understand the rules better (once in a while it turns out that I am the one misinterpreting the rules, in which case I love to learn the correct rule so I can update my understanding).
Or players are suggesting houserules and I try to help them refine their houserules ensure that they are fair and balanced against the other game rules.
These are two seperate kinds of rules debates.
In the first case, we're debating RAW. There is no room for alternate interpretations or houserules in debating RAW. Once everyone is on the same page understanding the RAW, then there is no problem going off onto theoretical tangents.
In the second case, we're debating theory, and the integration of that theory into existing RAW. Here we can do whatever we want, and can interpret that theory in an infinite number of different ways, all of which are right, but not all of which are well-balanced with the rest of the RAW.
I tried to point out that it benefits everyonepretty equally. If everyone rests, than tanks get healed, too. Casters get spells back, put so does everyone that has a multiple daily ability, from item, race, or class.
Think about that for a little while. Why is that so wrong? The dm controls if they have that option by encounters and allowing them to even find a location, and if there are any time limits, the party still has to worry about them.
Resting whenever we want is not wrong at all.
If the players think it's a good idea, and the DM thinks it's a good idea, then it really is a good idea.
But are we talking RAW or theory?
RAW says to rest after 4 level-appropriate encounters, each of which should drain about 1/4 of your resources, or nearly so.
Resting more often allows people to go hogwild with their resources. Some classes, primarily spellcasters, innately have more daily resources than other classes (primarily melee classes). So frequent rests benefits the spellcasters the most, allowing them to significantly alter the power curve in their favor.
Resting less often forces people to conserve too much of their daily resources. This is the exact opposite of resting more often, so the classes that benefit the most from frequent rests are the same classes that suffer the most from infrequent resting.
Now, you are right. If the spellcasters recharge, then everyone benefits. Fights go faster, fighters get more heals, dungeons get explored faster and more safely.
But it does imbalance the challenge. If the book says 2 ogres are a level-appropriate challenge, and 4 such encounters should be appropriate for a single day's adventuring, fighting each of those encounters in one day, which requires careful resource management by the PCs, is, by RAW, the way the challenge ratings were calibrated. Fighting those encounters at the rate of one per day so all the casters are fully recharged and prepared to use every spell on their list in each encounter really undermines the challenge and breaks the system for calculating challenge ratings.
Sure, it can be done. And all the PCs benefit by it.
But I'm not sure the game benefits. Now the DM has to increase the challenge, maybe turning those 2 ogres into 4, or giving them class levels, which means each encounter gives more XP and the PCs go up levels faster - which can wreck a premade campaign like an Adventure Path (sure changes things in that final CR 18 encounter if the party is all 25th level when we get there).
Ripples in a pond - one little pebble of a change can have far-reaching consequences in game-sweeping mechanics.
I agree with Blake's POV on this one. The intent of the rules seems clear to me. "Per day" in the game is equivalent to "per day" in real life. I doubt the designers ever envisioned that they would have ever needed to define in game terms what a day was in general.
Think of the ramifications if the implied day in the rules is defined as the time between 8 hour rests to other areas of the game: you could craft items (both mundane and magical) much faster. You could use your Perform skill to earn money faster. Travel would be faster as well. In fact, the only area where a "day" is defined, that I can think of, is in the overland movement rules and that is simply to define the actual amount of time spent traveling and is meant to facilitate the idea of a forced march.
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Well, of course they do.
If wizards were able to match melee damage output, AND cast debilitating spells at the enemy, AND cast battlefield control spells, AND cast self-only buffs, AND cast scenario-ending divinations, AND teleport everyone round the globe in the blink of an eye, and back again in time for breakfast, then why would anyone ever take up a martial career?.
I'm not saying they should be able to do all this at once... just that they should, should they choose to prepare their spells for the purpose, that they should have the option of doing those things at a high enough level.
Any wizard who is trying to keep up with melee classes in damage, is abandoning his job, which is to do the things the rest of the party can't do.
Which involves far more than simply buffing; it includes blocking off flanking maneuvers, smashing through barriers, altering the shape or nature of the battlefield, delivering allies to their target, debuffing the enemy, and, maybe, once in a while, deal some damage, IF that's the most pressing tactical thing that needs doing.But if the default approach to every encounter is 'try to deal some hit point damage', then you're not playing a wizard. You're a sorceror, a warlock, or a wand on legs.
Or, y'know, an evoker. Who, if they can't keep up with a warrior-type for damage is really in the wrong specialty. Not EVERY wizard is built to just buff the melee types, or things like that. If the Evoker's still supposed to be an option, then, yes, he should be able to deliver damage like his peers. That's the whole POINT of his specialization.
Think of the ramifications if the implied day in the rules is defined as the time between 8 hour rests to other areas of the game: you could craft items (both mundane and magical) much faster. You could use your Perform skill to earn money faster. Travel would be faster as well. In fact, the only area where a "day" is defined, that I can think of, is in the overland movement rules and that is simply to define the actual amount of time spent traveling and is meant to facilitate the idea of a forced march.
Not as much as you would think.
Crafting is defined as 8 hours of work. At least for magical crafting. I'd suspect the mundane crafting is the same, or at least have reason to be ruled the same.
As you said, overland travel is defined as 8 hours assumed.
So there is some evidence that a "day" is pretty much assumed to be 8 hours for most things.
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I have noted in a few threads on these boards that anytime the possibility arises to apply a penalty to a caster that might cause them to lose a spell a large and vocal section of the community backlashes against the concept and appears completely unwilling to consider the idea under any circumstances.
The people who don't want to lose their spells because they choose to wear armor are the people who should be playing duskblade, warmages, and beguilers. If that doesn't work for them, they can just play clerics, druids, favored souls, shugenjas, and generic divine spellcasters.
My 2cp.
Think of the ramifications if the implied day in the rules is defined as the time between 8 hour rests to other areas of the game: you could craft items (both mundane and magical) much faster. You could use your Perform skill to earn money faster. Travel would be faster as well. In fact, the only area where a "day" is defined, that I can think of, is in the overland movement rules and that is simply to define the actual amount of time spent traveling and is meant to facilitate the idea of a forced march.Not as much as you would think.
Crafting is defined as 8 hours of work. At least for magical crafting. I'd suspect the mundane crafting is the same, or at least have reason to be ruled the same.
As you said, overland travel is defined as 8 hours assumed.So there is some evidence that a "day" is pretty much assumed to be 8 hours for most things.
Actually, crafting rolls are made weekly.
There is an optional daily rule that lets you make progress checks daily, but it certainly never defines that as 8 hours. In fact, it defines it as the normal result divided by the number of days in a week (and certainly not as the normal result divided by the number of 8-hour periods in the week).
As for overland travel, the Pathfinder BETA rules define a day of walking as "In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating." And "A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required."
So clearly the rules for walking don't define a day as 8 hours. The day can be as long as you can keep making your CON checks.
Incidentally, a day on a watercraft can be 10 hours of rowing or 24 hours of sailing.
So no, travel does not contain a game-wide sweeping definition of "day" = 8 hours.
Not even close.
Think of the ramifications if the implied day in the rules is defined as the time between 8 hour rests to other areas of the game: you could craft items (both mundane and magical) much faster. You could use your Perform skill to earn money faster. Travel would be faster as well. In fact, the only area where a "day" is defined, that I can think of, is in the overland movement rules and that is simply to define the actual amount of time spent traveling and is meant to facilitate the idea of a forced march.Not as much as you would think.
Crafting is defined as 8 hours of work. At least for magical crafting. I'd suspect the mundane crafting is the same, or at least have reason to be ruled the same.
As you said, overland travel is defined as 8 hours assumed.So there is some evidence that a "day" is pretty much assumed to be 8 hours for most things.
Didn't quite say that. Just to clarify… From the Beta p. 125:
"A day represents 8 hours of actual travel time. For rowed watercraft, a day represents 10 hours of rowing. For a sailing ship, it represents 24 hours."
As for crafting magic items for instance: it takes 1 day per 1,000gp of the magic item's price in most cases. If you assume a real life 24 hour day, a 10,000gp magic item will take 10 (24 hour days). If you assume an 8 hour rest/8 hour work cycle as a "day", it would take 6 2/3 (24 hour) days. My opinion is that the former is what is intended in terms of what a day should be.
Without looking at the SRD clarification, I'm assuming that it addresses this by saying it's up to the DM which way you want to play it. But I am of the opinion that a day in game terms is meant to be a 24 hour period with a morning, day, and night, just like it is in real life. At least that is how my groups have always played it.
To add further intrigue to this particular topic, check out Healing on p. 142 of the Beta.
*Edited*
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I don't mind the concept of spellcasters having to make a skill check to cast all spells *IF* the system is designed to handle it.
In Harnmaster for example, every spell is a skill with a % chance to cast (includes modifiers for casting in stressful situations and when injured etc). You rolls the dice, and your success is determined by beating that skill check.
If you fail, the spell fails and you take fatigue points. If you fail critically, bad stuff happens. Conversely, if you succeed the spell goes off and you take fatigue. If you succeed critically, you do extra stuff. The benefit to this system is you get to cast the spells any number of times, but with a chance of failure. It also rewards exceptional rolls with extra results. The entire system was built around these kind of skill checks, so it was a level playing field.
The problem is that D20 is not designed around this idea. With D20, you only get a fixed number of castings or slots. You also have to deal with hit rolls, saves and even spell resistance. I'd say that those are enough factors to reduce the power of spellcasters.
Sure, throwing in concentration checks to successfully cast a spell defensively (with a chance to lose the spell rather than getting a AoO) or in exceptionally distracting situations (riding, nauseated or frightened would IMO be appropriate) is fine, but I'd say most spellcasting adventurers are kinda used to casting in combat and don't consider it distracting enough to fail casting the spell.
Just IMO, chiming in late and all. :)
The only time the length of a day is defined relative to spell casting is in each of the sections you are choosing to ignore:
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.Recent Casting Limit: As with wizards, any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against the sorcerer’s or bard’s daily limit.Recent Casting Limit: As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared.Until you can provide a counter-definition and cite the relevant page number this issue should really be considered closed. Again, if the designers had meant 24 hours they would have said 24 hours just like they do in many other places.
I did. Several times. I explained in painstaking detail how these passages you quote affect preparing spells to slots that are expended during an interrupted rest period.
The rules say a wizard must rest for 8 hours before preparing spells.
So please tell me, if the wizard has been resting for the previous 8 hours, then how can he possibly have cast any spells in the previous 8 hours?
He can't.
How can this rule possibly apply to anything if there is no way he could possibly have cast spells during his 8 hours of rest?
It can't.
But that rest can be interrupted. He might have some unused spells from yesterday still prepared, and he might use them during that interruption. In which case he finishes his rest and prepares his daily spells but cannot prepare the slots he used during that interruption because those spells were used within the last 8 hours.
Which is all this rule says. Period. End of rule.
Taking this rule out of context to apply it to all the spells the wizard has cast since the last time he rested is meaningless, because this time he rested so long that he exceeded the 8 hours the rule covers.
Which also means, trying to define an entire spellcasting mechanic by one little side rule that only applies to interrupted rest periods is equally out of context.
I don't know why you can't see that; it's crystal clear.
But since I can't make it any more crystal clear, if you still fail to see the clarity, then there's always logic.
How can it be balanced to let one caster class get 2.5x the number of spells the rest of them get?
How can it be balanced to let mages, arguably the most powerful class in the game, get 2.5x more use of their game-defining ultrapowerful class ability?
How can we logically ignore every other sentence everywhere in the book that says the spell allotment is a daily allotment?
If clarity fails, and logic fails, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
PS: This interpretation does not necessarily hose Divine casters:
Time of Day is not required to mean "05:00" or "Sunrise" but could instead mean "when I wake up" or "before I take my rest". A Divine caster could just as easily take advantage of the fact that in D&D "day" does not mean 24 hours.
Wow.
Just wow.
So by your interpretation, clerics could define "a particular part
of the day" to be anything? Why ot define it as "when I sneeze" or "when I hop on one foot" and make it really easy?
Heck, why bother? Let's just define our daily prayer time as "whenever it suits me" so I don't have to worry about the rule that says "a particular part of the day".
Heck, why not? I've already redifined my definition of "day" as the time that lapses between each breath I inhale...
And I've already redefined my definitin of "longbow" to mean "a 7.62 mm, multi-barrel machine gun with a high rate of fire (over 3,000 rounds per minute), employing Gatling-style rotating barrels with an external power source" - because there is no rule in the book that says it isn't...
I am beginning to see why I'm failing to reach you here, and I'm hoping this final bit of hyperbole draws the conversation back into practical rules definitinos for both of us.
Incidentally, a day of traveling on a watercraft can be 10 hours of rowing or 24 hours of sailing.
fixed for you :)
Of course, this is defined as such in reference to the charts for overland movement.
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And I've already redefined my definitin of "longbow" to mean "a 7.62 mm, multi-barrel machine gun with a high rate of fire (over 3,000 rounds per minute), employing Gatling-style rotating barrels with an external power source" - because there is no rule in the book that says it isn't...
Ooh, the bow from Hawk the Slayer! Yes, please! :)
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Time of Day is not required to mean "05:00" or "Sunrise" but could instead mean "when I wake up" or "before I take my rest". A Divine caster could just as easily take advantage of the fact that in D&D "day" does not mean 24 hours.
Hey, why don't we define it as 'whenever I break wind or scratch my balls'.
Hey, presto, a thousand spells/day!
15-minute adventuring day solved!
{EDIT: Ninja'ed by Blake}
Anyone who has to resort to this egregious level of pedantry has obviously conceded the argument.
It's quite clear that divine casters get their spells once/day, at either the same time each day, or at a time of religious significance, like dawn, which may fluctuate with the season.
Having thus settled that spells/day means spells per 24-hour period, it sets a precedent for all other casters, who use the same term.
Time of Day is not required to mean "05:00" or "Sunrise" but could instead mean "when I wake up" or "before I take my rest". A Divine caster could just as easily take advantage of the fact that in D&D "day" does not mean 24 hours.Hey, why don't we define it as 'whenever I break wind or scratch my balls'.
Hey, presto, a thousand spells/day!
15-minute adventuring day solved!
Anyone who has to resort to this egregious level of pedantry has obviously conceded the argument.
It's quite clear that divine casters get their spells once/day, at either the same time each day, or at a time of religious significance, like dawn, which may fluctuate with the season.
Having thus settled that spells/day means spells per 24-hour period, it sets a precedent for all other casters, who use the same term.
I like how you think!
I hereby dub thee "tarrasque-friend" and give you a free Dodge-One-Bite card that you can play any time a tarrasque bites you.
Caviat: It only works once, so don't get too friendly, we tend to get very hungry after sleeping a thousand years...
Oh, wait, can I define a year as 365 rest periods? If so, can I define it as one rest period, since the 365 seems to be an irrelevent game term not defined in the rules? Maybe a year is just a single rest period?
I hope so - I won't wake up so hungry and cranky anymore.
To Matt R:
I have found at least two references to a day representing a 24 hour period:
1) A day of traveling on a sailing ship represents 24 hours (p.125)
2)Healing ability damage: complete bed rest restores 2 points per day (24 hours) for each affected ability score. (p.143)
Of course one could argue that the term "day" works differently for different parts of the game.
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I like how you think!
I hereby dub thee "tarrasque-friend" and give you a free Dodge-One-Bite card that you can play any time a tarrasque bites you.
Caviat: It only works once, so don't get too friendly, we tend to get very hungry after sleeping a thousand years...
Oh, wait, can I define a year as 365 rest periods? If so, can I define it as one rest period, since the 365 seems to be an irrelevent game term not defined in the rules? Maybe a year is just a single rest period?
I hope so - I won't wake up so hungry and cranky anymore.
Well; I define a year (or at least, only in the case of tarrasque-rest)as the time taken till the eventual death of the universe, so yah, boo, pfttthhhh! to you!
And as for my one-use 'get out of tarrasque free' card, I've unilaterally decided that you (subconsciously, and unknown to your waking self, of course) intended that word in the sense it carries in the Flumph language, in which 'once' is defined as 'twenty million-bajillion-trillion times infinity, plus one'.
I reread my previous post (the one about clarity and logic) and realized I may have gone too far.
If so, I apoligze.
I just can't believe that something so intrinsically obvious to me is causing such confusion, or that two (or more) people can look at the same words in black and white and come to two such different interpretations.
I bet the guys (or gals?) who originally wrote that text would be pulling their hair out, because no doubt, whoever is right, those original authors thought they were being crystal clear too, and they can't believe that their clear text could inspire two totally different interpretations.
Regardless of who is right or wrong, everyone is entitled to play it however they want. In fact, I don't even have the right to say that, since it can be inferred that I am granting that right to everyone when in fact they already have it.
So play it as you wish. Interpret the words as you wish.
I will too.
I like how you think!
I hereby dub thee "tarrasque-friend" and give you a free Dodge-One-Bite card that you can play any time a tarrasque bites you.
Caviat: It only works once, so don't get too friendly, we tend to get very hungry after sleeping a thousand years...
Oh, wait, can I define a year as 365 rest periods? If so, can I define it as one rest period, since the 365 seems to be an irrelevent game term not defined in the rules? Maybe a year is just a single rest period?
I hope so - I won't wake up so hungry and cranky anymore.
Well; I define a year (or at least, only in the case of tarrasque-rest)as the time taken till the eventual death of the universe, so yah, boo, pfttthhhh! to you!
And as for my one-use 'get out of tarrasque free' card, I've unilaterally decided that you (subconsciously, and unknown to your waking self, of course) intended that word in the sense it carries in the Flumph language, in which 'once' is defined as 'twenty million-bajillion-trillion times infinity, plus one'.
Unfortunately for you, you forgot to consider the flumph definition of infitiny, which is "one divided by million-bajillion-trillion, minus 1".
Do the math: This equates out to still only having one use on your card.
We tarrasques think of everything!
And now I bite you for your impertinence.
Uh oh, do the math again...
I just can't believe that something so intrinsically obvious to me is causing such confusion, or that two (or more) people can look at the same words in black and white and come to two such different interpretations.
That is the problem with the English language, and likely other "living" languages.
Look at all the classic rules debates. The most recent to blow my mind was Uncanny Dodge. Apparently the debate has raged for nearly a decade, but since it was intrinsically obvious to me I never looked into it.
Turns out I am on the "wrong" side of that ruling.
Knowing what the rule is supposed to mean, I can think of a much better way to write it. But how it is written created two different interpretations, across two different versions. And the Pathfinder rules might not clarify it further, and just use the previous writing.
I just can't believe that something so intrinsically obvious to me is causing such confusion, or that two (or more) people can look at the same words in black and white and come to two such different interpretations.That is the problem with the English language, and likely other "living" languages.
This sort of thing is the source of tons of internet arguments between Rules-As-Written (RAW) adherents and more interpretive players. It's also one of the sources of friction between rules lawyers and other players (and their DMs).
I think the 3e team tried to make as many of the rules as unambiguous as they could, without going the same distance as Avalon Hill/MMP with Advanced Squad Leader. That game not only has a thick binder of rules but a fairly exacting glossary. The rules are so precise that there's a difference between "adjacent" and "ADJACENT". I think it's fair to have a refereed RPG not resort to such precise language measures - interpretation is one of the things a DM is for.
In the case of the wizard trying to get more rest in and recover spells early, if he's put in a hard 12 hours and then rests, I'm not going to begrudge him the 4 hours he happens to shorten the day. As DM, I'll let him recover the spells. Fundamentally, I don't think this is unbalanced with the clerics and druids who have to wait 24 hours. They usually don't need to rest to get their spells back. The potential to get spells back in a shorter than 24 hour period seems fairly balanced with being taken out of action for 8 hours. That said, there are limits to the amount of time I'll shorten the day...
I just can't believe that something so intrinsically obvious to me is causing such confusion, or that two (or more) people can look at the same words in black and white and come to two such different interpretations.That is the problem with the English language, and likely other "living" languages.
Look at all the classic rules debates. The most recent to blow my mind was Uncanny Dodge. Apparently the debate has raged for nearly a decade, but since it was intrinsically obvious to me I never looked into it.
Turns out I am on the "wrong" side of that ruling.
Knowing what the rule is supposed to mean, I can think of a much better way to write it. But how it is written created two different interpretations, across two different versions. And the Pathfinder rules might not clarify it further, and just use the previous writing.
Exactly, that's why I've avoided posting in this thread for quite a while.
It's clear to me that the rules are very much not clear. And the FAQ didn't really clear it up either. Although personally, if I had to rule on it, I'd say the RAW is 8 hours rest and arcane spells reset (assuming you didn't get up 4 hours into it cast 3 spells, and go back to sleep for 5 hours, which would reset all but those 3 spells). Mainly because the FAQ says that is the technical ruling. I think it's perfectly reasonable to house rule it as once per day, although that can get confusing too (if they world happens to have a 12hour day, or it has a 48 hour day). It can be weird too when you start gating around the world. You could gate in 12 hours ahead, or behind, which really throws off that whole '24 hours' thing, which may be why they always stated it as 8 hours rest instead, so they didn't have to worry about international date lines.
I've personally taken off in a plane, spent 30 hours in flight, and landed 12 hours later than when I took off (damn international date line).
The problem is that in situations like this, the rules simply aren't clear, the FAQ makes a ruling that half the people don't like, and everyone insists that they are right, only they are right, and everyone else is an idiot for not seeing it the way they do. Basically, this is an unwinnable argument, which is why I don't bother arguing one side or the other. Each GM will just have to make his own decision and go with it.
The problem is compounded by a total lack of arguments based on realistic behavior (of course, those are sometimes counterproductive too). It's magic, so we're all guessing on how it should work.
That said, if your GM takes "daily" to mean once-per-24-hour-cycle, don't complain. If there's an actual ambiguity you can shake your fist at the designers, but it is the GM's authority to make the call.
As a GM myself, I take "Daily" to mean once per filmed episode of "The Daily Show", so my Wizard players can only prepare spells on Monday through Thursday, excluding holidays and staff vacations.
The problem is compounded by a total lack of arguments based on realistic behavior (of course, those are sometimes counterproductive too). It's magic, so we're all guessing on how it should work.
That said, if your GM takes "daily" to mean once-per-24-hour-cycle, don't complain. If there's an actual ambiguity you can shake your fist at the designers, but it is the GM's authority to make the call.
As a GM myself, I take "Daily" to mean once per filmed episode of "The Daily Show", so my Wizard players can only prepare spells on Monday through Thursday, excluding holidays and staff vacations.
Hehe, that's funny...
The forums were down a few minutes ago, so I wrote a post in Notepad so I could paste it in when the forums came back up. But then I got sidetracked, and the recent posts made me change my mind to not post this after all.
But since you mentioned the Daily Show, I'll put the post I had planned to write here in a spoiler:
I give up.
You win.
"Day", and all its derivitives like "daily" et. al., means whatever time period we want.
I should call John Stewart immediately to inform him that he better have a new episode of "The Daily Show" ready for me every time I wake up from a nap.
And I'll call my doctor and tell him to triple my prescriptions, since "take 3 tablets orally once a day" now means "take 3 tablets orally every time I wake up from a nap."
And my Daily Tribune better start hitting my front porch every time I wake up from a nap.
Now, can anyone arrange it so that sunrise happens daily - and by that I mean every time I wake up from a nap? Who can make this happen? Obama? The Pope? Stephen Hawking?
We were both thinking, at least a little, along the same lines. Great minds and all...
I guess I take it a little less seriously, though. :)
Those pills in your example gave me an idea though:
"Prepare spells only as directed. Ask your GM about spell prep!"
This reminds me of those old college debates about file systems, and if that's good or bad I can't decide. With DnD as it is--it forces players' experiences to be unique. We can't all login and play the same video game. Experiences, opinions, are all different, and will never match up, and that's its beauty.
With DnD as rules-centric as it is, coupled with the different experiences, we as a player base end up with a whole lot of "this is how I perceive it, here are my numbers, and I am right," whereas the opposite side can pull up the same numbers and reach a vastly different conclusion. The exact same sentences.
And no side will agree.
Ever.
Of course, that dichotomy is also part of the game's enjoyment. A group of five might discuss code endlessly, another might discuss various shades of cobolt (the interpretation of rules versus the interpretation of culture and character).
Now, take that and apply the caster v. melee debate, take the above posts as examples of the intensity, and 'reading the same rule but coming up with different interpretation,' and that after years, no one's ever solved it, save to mostly agree on Economy of Actions (which Jason said he'd tackle from a variety of angles...I suspect this is one of those angles).
Unfortunately (fortunately?) this means that this debate probably isn't going anywhere, but it's where it stems from, and it's likely that many points from these earlier debates will end up being rehashed--and they're good points for both sides, so there's no harm in it. In a way, it's like sitting around a table and revisiting Trekkies versus Star Wars while we all share some potato chips.
It's an old, old argument--a few searches on any DnD forum for caster v. melee or wizard v. fighter in internet bboards anywhere could show it at various angles and developments. I suspect that many of the same arguments will come into play and it'll be just about as fruitful. The 'hit points' debate is a classic example of it. :)
What should be brought up, though, is that this is not just 'one' alteration, but part of a number of smaller ones, and they'll need to be taken into context.
So, while folks rehash things for old times' sake, I've got some chips, salsa, and some Ranch dip. Sit back, enjoy it--it's really all part of the d20 experience. Or, any gaming experience. Herding gamers is just like herding cats. Can't do it.
I am on my cell phone and I don't have a copy of the FAQ. Can some one open the main FAQ and maybe manual of the plains and just search 24 hours, rest, or time?
Ok, here's a few I found.
If a character doesn’t need to rest or sleep, can he spend 24 hours a day crafting items (including magic items) rather than just 8 hours?
The Craft skill doesn’t actually specify exactly how many hours per day are required, just that checks are made per day. It seems reasonable to allow extra progress to a character who doesn’t have to rest. If the DM chooses to allow this, the Sage recommends doubling the product of the check result and the DC.
For example, a warforged armorsmith working on a breastplate (DC 15; 2,000 sp price) who rolled a 20 on his Craft check would make 600 sp of progress in a week’s work (15 times 20, doubled), instead of the normal 300 sp of progress. For magic items, you can’t work more than 8 hours per day (see DMG 283), even if you are capable of staying awake and alert all night long.
The mass lesser vigor spell has a fixed range (of 20 feet), which makes it eligible for the revised Persistent Spell feat in PG. Does that mean a 17th-level druid could use a 9thlevel spell slot to give nine creatures fast healing 1 for 24 hours, or does the built-in limit of 25 rounds make that pointless?
Unlike Extend Spell, Persistent Spell replaces a spell’s normal
duration with a new duration of 24 hours. In this case, the
effect overrides the normal maximum duration of the spell, so it
would indeed grant nine creatures fast healing 1 for 24 hours (a
pretty reasonable effect for a 9th-level spell).
I recently had my group fight five mummies. The argument that came up was that they felt you should roll only one time for the despair effect. I had them roll one time for each creature. They also feel that from then on they were immune to all future effects against other
mummy encounters. I did not think so, but could not find a clear answer. Did I make a bad call?
You adjudicated this encounter correctly. The entry for despair states that each creature must make a separate Will save against each mummy that he or she sees. Also, a creature cannot be affected only by the same mummy’s despair ability for 24 hours, whether or not the DC 16 Will save is a success or a failure.
How do I know when my cleric can prepare spells? Does he need to rest first?
Divine spellcasters who prepare spells (such as clerics and druids) choose and prepare their spells at a particular time of day. Unless the character’s deity or faith specifies a particular time, the character can choose his spell preparation time when he first gains the ability to cast divine spells. Dawn, dusk, noon, and midnight are common choices. If something prevents the character from praying for his spells at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible or else wait until the next day to prepare his spells. Unlike wizards, divine spellcasters need not rest before preparing spells.
Can a factotum (Du 14) use his “cunning insight” to boost his save outside of combat (for example, against a poison trap)?
Yes, you can use such abilities outside of combat. An “encounter” is more than a combat, but it also includes any other significant event in the game such as stopping to bash down a door, navigating a rickety bridge, or dealing with a trap. If the characters have a minute or two to catch their breath and rest, assume that the last encounter has ended and all per encounter abilities refresh.
How does a favored soul or other spontaneous divine spellcaster ready his spells for the day?
Unless stated otherwise in the class description, favored souls, shugenjas, and other purely spontaneous divine spellcasters ready spells each day just as sorcerers do, and they require 8 hours of rest beforehand and 15 minutes of concentration.
The spirit shaman’s spellcasting entry (CD 16) states that the character needs only 1 hour of quiet meditation at a particular time each day to regain her spells (much like a cleric).
(This is a correction to an earlier Sage Advice answer, which erroneously stated that spirit shamans required rest to ready her spells.)
This one may be a nail in the coffin of 'Wizards can't gain spells more than once per day'. See italicized below (my italics).
The description of the ring of sustenance says the user gets all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in 2 hours. How does this affect a bard, sorcerer, or wizard who wants to regain spells? Specifically, how does this interact with the casting limit rule in the PH?
In the case of a ring of sustenance, “all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep” means the character sleeps for 2 hours and regains 1 hit point per level (see the rules for natural healing on Chapter 8 of the PH). If the ring wearer is fatigued, 2 hours of sleep removes the fatigue.
A wizard must have 8 hours of rest before regaining spells. If the wizard doesn’t have to sleep for some reason, she still requires 8 hours of rest to regain any spells (see Preparing Wizard Spells on page 177 of the PH). A ring of sustenance doesn’t change that.
A bard or sorcerer regains spells only once a day, and a ring of sustenance doesn’t increase that. A ring of sustenance also doesn’t exempt the wearer from the casting limit rule. Whenever a spellcaster gets a new set of spells, any spell slot she used in the last 8 hours is not available. This rule has nothing to do with how much sleep the
spellcaster gets; it reflects how long a spell slot must remain empty before the character can refill it. The ring doesn’t make 8 hours pass, so it doesn’t help the character refill the used spell slot.
And this one has already been quoted.
Can you rest for 8 hours more than once a day? For example, could I cast a spell that lasts for the entire day, then rest, and then do it again?
While this is technically within the rules, the Sage nevertheless would support any Dungeon Master that disallowed it. Ultimately, it comes down to the DM’s vision of how magic works in her campaign.
And this one is a nail in the coffin of 'Wizard can rest more than once per day'.
What exactly does “once per day” mean? Does it mean “once per 24-hour period” or is it recharged after the character has rested for 8 hours, like spells?
It means that in any given day, the ability can be used once. So what constitutes a day? That’s where things get a little tricky and rely on the DM’s common sense. The Sage advises using daybreak as the start of a “day,” meaning that all daily-use abilities are recharged in full each
morning, regardless of exactly when they were used during the previous 24-hour period. For the vast majority of games, that’s when most abilities are recharged anyway (spells, for example), which makes it easy to use.
If your players try to abuse this flexibility—such as by adventuring through the night and then suddenly getting all their abilities back when the sun comes up—the DM should feel free to be more restrictive. It’s entirely reasonable to require a full 8 hours of rest before allowing daily-use abilities to recharge (even for those characters who don’t require sleep).
Even the forced march/walking example supports the idea that any given "day" of strenuous activity can be reset after a period of rest. As a thought experiment, assume our character has an item like a ring of sustenance that precludes the need to eat/drink and a portable hut via item or spell that precludes the need to make or break camp, at what point in the following sequence would your force the character to start making forced march rolls?
1)Walk 8 hours
2)Rest 8 hours
3)Walk 8 hours
4)Rest 8 hours
5)Walk 8 hours
6)Rest 8 hours
7)etc into infinity
Then there's this:
In a day of normal walking, a character
walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent
making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.
Note the part I bolded.
That means that during daylight, the character walks 8 hours. Not 8 consecutive hours. Maybe he has 10 hours of daylight, maybe he has 15 hours of daylight - it's not stipulated.
But he wakes at sunrise, spends some of his morning dealing with breakfast. Then he breaks camp and walks for an hour or two and then rests for a while (how long isn't exactly stipulated). Then he walks for another hour or two and then stops for a while, prepares lunch, eats lunch, maybe rests a bit longer. Then he walks for an hour or two, rests a while, walks an hour or two, rests a while, then walks his final hour or two, stops, prepares to camp, eats dinner, and hits the sack around sundown, or shortly thereafter. Sleeps through the night then wakes up tomorrow, ready to to break camp around sunup, eat breakfast, and start over.
All totaled that equals 8 hours with lots of rest stops. That takes a whole day, by our earthly standards of 24 hours, to walk and rest that much, plus camping time and sleeping time.
Now that's a normal man with normal rules.
If he forces himself to walk more than 8 hours between waking today at sunrise and waking tomorrow at sunrise, he grows weary as presented in the rules for a Forced March.
In your thought example, you give the man some magic items to simplify some of these tasks. But unless you give him another item to negate his need for resting, he still only walks 8 hours - he can just spend his rest periods being more relaxed since he doesn't have to scrounge for food, or eat, or make or break camps.
Now, you make it so he doesn't need to rest either, and we've got a different story. He can now break the standard rules allowing him to walk only 8 hours of every 24-hour day (without penalties) because he has magic to override those standard rules.
Then there's this:
Pathfinder Beta, Overland Travel wrote:
In a day of normal walking, a character
walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent
making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.Note the part I bolded.
That means that during daylight, the character walks 8 hours. Not 8 consecutive hours. Maybe he has 10 hours of daylight, maybe he has 15 hours of daylight - it's not stipulated.
Uhm,
Sorry DM_Blake, but here's where I see the issue with your quote.Wait for it....
Wait for it....
What happens if I want to travel by night?
Per the above, I can't travel at night because the literal interpretation of the rule is 'you walk during the day'.
I don't think anyone would argue that is a valid interpretation. I'm pretty darn sure the Drow would object to that at least. :) I think the rule you are quoting is a reasonable description of how travel works sans any magic. IE: How it works if Jim Bob the Commoner is walking from Ticksville to Fleatown. And, it is a perfectly valid explanation of how it works (other than not taking into account that you only get about 7 or so hours of daylight in the deepest part of winter where I live, or that Jim Bob might be a half-orc who prefers travel at night). Remember, the RAW is 'normal' physics, with magic making exceptions to the normal rules (like teleport negating the fact you can't walk through walls).
Again though, I think you are getting to nitpicky. The description is a general purpose explaination of normal every day travel. It doesn't specify the length of the daylight hours (it seems to assume equal day/night, which only happens twice a year).
The specified scenario was :
- Everyone has rings of sustenance (no need to eat)
- There is a portable hut that takes 5 seconds to set up
This means that if I'm walking along, I walk for 8 hours, don't have to waste time preparing meals, just walk in the hut and fall on the bed and rest. When I wake up, I don't have to break the camp apart and get lunch, I just put it all away and start walking.
Your statement about all the resting during the day is common sense but as you yourself pointed out to me before, common sense is not RAW, it's strictly house ruling. RAW states 'Eight hours of walking', not 'Eight hours of walking with 2 coffee breaks and a lunch break'. RAW state that the ring of sustenance negates time needed for food preperation and eating since you don't need to. The portable hut items specifically state they negate the need to set up a camp, since they are immediately available. I do note you'd need two huts, though, since they are usually only usable once per day.
Now, as a GM, I'd say it was reasonable to say that eventually, such rigorous travel would wear down on the character, but not as fast as traveling 10 hours in a day without resting. But that would be a house rule. I'd probably start making them make a single fort save a day after a week of doing this, with the DC going up every additional day just as if they were doing extra hours in a day. However, that's again, a house rule. A good rule of thumb is, if an item gives you a special benefit, you should never rule the rules so that benefit is unmade. The rings negate the need to forage for food or take time to cook or even eat, saying you still need to take that time to do nothing negates that benefit. The portable huts negate the need to set up a camp, or even find a good one. Saying you have to take that time to rest up negates that benefit as well.
My 2cp
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Thanks MDT. That last one was specificly the one I was thinking of, though after rereading it in comparison to what other have said against it, even with my first quote, I doubt it will change anyones mind.
But I appriciate you doing that anyway.
Im still going with you can rest more than once. Although I myself never played rpga, I've seen it done there as well.
Thanks MDT. That last one was specificly the one I was thinking of, though after rereading it in comparison to what other have said against it, even with my first quote, I doubt it will change anyones mind.
But I appriciate you doing that anyway.
Im still going with you can rest more than once. Although I myself never played rpga, I've seen it done there as well.
De Nada,
Just putting my 2 copper pieces in. I seem to have a 33/33/33/1 going on with DM_Blake. 33% of the time I agree with him completely. 33% of the time I agree partially. 33% of the time I think he's on drugs. And 1% of the time I just read his post and go 'Duh WTF?'.:) :) :) :)
Multiple smiley's for the humor impared.
Then there's this:
Pathfinder Beta, Overland Travel wrote:
In a day of normal walking, a character
walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent
making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.Note the part I bolded.
That means that during daylight, the character walks 8 hours. Not 8 consecutive hours. Maybe he has 10 hours of daylight, maybe he has 15 hours of daylight - it's not stipulated.
Uhm,
Sorry DM_Blake, but here's where I see the issue with your quote.Wait for it....
Wait for it....
What happens if I want to travel by night?
Per the above, I can't travel at night because the literal interpretation of the rule is 'you walk during the day'.
I don't think anyone would argue that is a valid interpretation. I'm pretty darn sure the Drow would object to that at least. :) I think the rule you are quoting is a reasonable description of how travel works sans any magic. IE: How it works if Jim Bob the Commoner is walking from Ticksville to Fleatown. And, it is a perfectly valid explanation of how it works (other than not taking into account that you only get about 7 or so hours of daylight in the deepest part of winter where I live, or that Jim Bob might be a half-orc who prefers travel at night). Remember, the RAW is 'normal' physics, with magic making exceptions to the normal rules (like teleport negating the fact you can't walk through walls).
Wait for it....
Wait for it....
What's that got to do with anything?
If Orc Bob the orcish commoner is walking from orc-Ticksville to orc-Fleatown, he will walk 8 hours at night, with frequent rests and time to eat, make camp, break camp etc. And he will sleep during the day when that bright old sun hurts his eyes. If he walks more than 8 hours in the standard day (one revolution of the planet on its axis, or what this orc commoner might call sun-down to sun-down), regardless of whether he does it at night or during daylight hours, then he will be force marching and suffer all the usual penalties as described in the book.
So would a drow.
Either way, they're all walking 8 hours, either by daylight or by moonlight or by darkvision if they must. Heck, if that drow is walking 8 hours entirely in the Underdark, I imagine he won't even know if the sun is up or down. But if he walks more than 8 hours in the standard day (one revolution of the planet on its axis, or what a human commoner would call sun-up to sun-up) then he will be force marching and suffer all the usual penalties as described in the book.
So yeah, the book says overland travel is 8 hours by daylight, resting the remainder of daylight, and implies sleeping at night. Obviously that only applies to races that observe diurnal activity cycles.
Nocturnal races will obviously reverse the order - they will not magically get to walk more because they are nocturnal.
And back to the guy with magic, I already said, if his magic just lets him ignore hunger and set/break camp with a command word, then he can enjoy his rest periods more. He can relax, when someone else without the magic is busy figuring out which tent pole goes in which flap.
But if he walks more than 8 hours between sunup today and sunup tomorrow, he is force marching and must apply those rules - unless you want to give him magic that makes him immune to fatique, sore feet, sor leg muscles, sore joints, blisters, exhaustion, etc. Now, give him that magic and I see no problem with him walking all day, all night, and tripling his overland movement rate.
But if you do that, it's the magic that is breaking the well-written rules. His magical exception doesn't confer the same exceptions to all the humans, orcs, or drow who have to walk around under normal, non-magical rules.
Wait for it....Wait for it....
What's that got to do with anything?
If Orc Bob the orcish commoner is walking from orc-Ticksville to orc-Fleatown, he will walk 8 hours at night, with frequent rests and time to eat, make camp, break camp etc. And he will sleep during the day when that bright old sun hurts his eyes. If he walks more than 8 hours in the standard day (one revolution of the planet on its axis, or what this orc commoner might call sun-down to sun-down), regardless of whether he does it at night or during daylight hours, then he will be force marching and suffer all the usual penalties as described in the book.
So would a drow.
Either way, they're all walking 8 hours, either by daylight or by moonlight or by darkvision if they must. Heck, if that drow is walking 8 hours entirely in the Underdark, I imagine he won't even know if the sun is up or down. But if he walks more than 8 hours in the standard day (one revolution of the planet on its axis, or what a human commoner would call sun-up to sun-up) then he will be force marching and suffer all the usual penalties as described in the book.
So yeah, the book says overland travel is 8 hours by daylight, resting the remainder of daylight, and implies sleeping at night. Obviously that only applies to races that observe diurnal activity cycles.
Nocturnal races will obviously reverse the order - they will not magically get to walk more because they are nocturnal.
Wow,
You took something that was a pretty obvious tongue in cheek poke at interpreting things as written a little too literally and totally ranted on it. I specifically said no one would reasonably call that a valid interpretation and I sure didn't say anywhere that a drow or other nocturnal creature would magically get to walk more. I have no idea where you pulled that out of. May I suggest a quick rereading of my original post, this time in slow speed mode?
And back to the guy with magic, I already said, if his magic just lets him ignore hunger and set/break camp with a command word, then he can enjoy his rest periods more. He can relax, when someone else without the magic is busy figuring out which tent pole goes in which flap.
You're missing the point. If he's relaxing earlier, he is getting his required 8 hours of relaxation in four hours before the average Jim Bob Commoner is. Therefore he's getting his required rest earlier. You said it yourself, he's relaxing. Or are you saying that because it's relaxation that replaces setting up his camp, it doesn't count toward the 8 hours he requires to be fully rested?
But if he walks more than 8 hours between sunup today and sunup tomorrow, he is force marching and must apply those rules - unless you want to give him magic that makes him immune to fatique, sore feet, sor leg muscles, sore joints, blisters, exhaustion, etc. Now, give him that magic and I see no problem with him walking all day, all night, and tripling his overland movement rate.But if you do that, it's the magic that is breaking the well-written rules. His magical exception doesn't confer the same exceptions to all the humans, orcs, or drow who have to walk around under normal, non-magical rules.
Again, I think you are missing the point. The specified magic items allow more rest than he could normally get in a day. Therefor, he is getting the benefit from the magic, not some GM fiat, and it is the magic item effects that interrupt the normal rules.
What he'd get is :
1st Day: 8 hours walk, 8 hours rest, 8 hours walk.
2nd Day: 8 hours rest, 8 hours walk, 8 hours rest.
3rd Day: 8 hours walk, 8 hours rest, 8 hours walk.
etc.
Honestly, I'd probably just GM that if you have those specific magic items (note they'd need to be on everyone) then you get 12 hours walking per day and be done with it. That evens it out (rather than two moves today and two sleeps tomorrow). So that it looked something like this :
1st Day: 4 hours rest, 8 hours walk, 4 hours rest, 4 hours walk, 4 hours rest.
2nd Day: 4 hours rest, 8 hours walk, 4 hours rest, 4 hours walk, 4 hours rest.
Etc.
Obviously, the morning four hours rest is the continuation of the previous night's four hours rest (for 8 hours total). Then a nap in the afternoon/evening, followed by another four hours of walking before going to bed at night. Again, he's only getting those because he's getting extra rest. I spent a year on a schedule similar to this. Exhausted me after the first 6 months (doing it Sunday night to Friday Morning, was working a contract for a company in Singapore, where they are 13 hours ahead of us, so I had to work 6 hours a day singapore time, and 6 hours a day US time (for a grand total of 12 hours a day)). Wasn't too bad the first 3-4 months, but by the time a year had past, I was experiencing serious health problems. Which is why I stated in my earlier post I'd consider this a short-term solution only.
Honestly, if you want to move continuously as much as possible, you get a ring of sustenance, a portable hut, and a clockwork horse. The horse will trot non-stop all day and night. Ride 14-16 hours a day, then pop the hut and go to bed. Really mess up your back, but you'd cover tons more ground.
Sorry, missed the tongue in cheekiness. I truly thought you were seriously proposing that a literal rule definition precluded traveling by night instead of by day.
My bad.
As for the magic items, I think you're blurring the line between how much rest the muscles, bone, and circulatory system need each day, and how much time someone spends camping.
Yeah, that's way more hardcore than the rules put it.
But you could just as easily throw the magic items out of the argument and phrase it this way:
A guy walking has a backpack. After he's done walking, he throws his backpack on the ground, flops out a blnket, then lies down and munches on some traveling rations as he begins to doze off to sleep. Next morning, it takes him a minute to roll up his blanket and he's off again, munching his hardtack as he walks.
Such a guy could easily travel 16 hours per day. Well, 15 hours and 58 minutes, or thereabouts.
But the rule isn't about how much time the guy spends camping, or pitching his tent, or scrambling his eggs in the morning.
The rule is about how much rest his body needs. Not enough rest, and he must force-march and accept those penalties.
Now one guy might spend his rest-time pitching a beautiful tent. Maybe even a whole stinking pavilion. Another guy might head to the river and catch some fish. A third guy might roll out his bedroll and get to sleep instantly. Someone else might have a ring of sustenance.
But whatever those guys are doing, they're all resting. Relaxing. Taking their boots off and wiggling their toes. Massaging their calves. Sighing in relief that their long footsore day is over.
They spend about 8 hours doing the walking, about 8 hours doing the rsting, and about 8 hurs doing the sleeping. More than 8 hours of the first one constitutes a forced march. They spend the second one doing whatever is relaxing for them. The the third one, well, they're snoring - except the guy with the ring of sustenance. He's playing solitaire for 6 hours then snoring for 2 hours.
Sorry, missed the tongue in cheekiness. I truly thought you were seriously proposing that a literal rule definition precluded traveling by night instead of by day.
My bad.
No problem. I've been guilting of going off half-cocked and finding out as I get to the shoot-out that not only did I forget my pants, I forgot to put bullets in the gun, so I'm half-cocked on an empty chamber.
:) :)
As for the magic items, I think you're blurring the line between how much rest the muscles, bone, and circulatory system need each day, and how much time someone spends camping.Yeah, that's way more hardcore than the rules put it.
But you could just as easily throw the magic items out of the argument and phrase it this way:
A guy walking has a backpack. After he's done walking, he throws his backpack on the ground, flops out a blnket, then lies down and munches on some traveling rations as he begins to doze off to sleep. Next morning, it takes him a minute to roll up his blanket and he's off again, munching his hardtack as he walks.
Such a guy could easily travel 16 hours per day. Well, 15 hours and 58 minutes, or thereabouts.
But the rule isn't about how much time the guy spends camping, or pitching his tent, or scrambling his eggs in the morning.
The rule is about how much rest his body needs. Not enough rest, and he must force-march and accept those penalties.
Now one guy might spend his rest-time pitching a beautiful tent. Maybe even a whole stinking pavilion. Another guy might head to the river and catch some fish. A third guy might roll out his bedroll and get to sleep instantly. Someone else might have a ring of sustenance.
But whatever those guys are doing, they're all resting. Relaxing. Taking their boots off and wiggling their toes. Massaging their calves. Sighing in relief that their long footsore day is over.
They spend about 8 hours doing the walking, about 8 hours doing the rsting, and about 8 hurs doing the sleeping. More than 8 hours of the first one constitutes a forced march. They spend the second one doing whatever is relaxing for them. The the third one, well, they're snoring - except the guy with the ring of sustenance. He's playing solitaire for 6 hours then snoring for 2 hours.
And now we have an 'Ah-Ha' moment. I think you are glossing over the ring of sustenance. Let me pop it in here.
RING OF SUSTENANCE
Aura faint conjuration; Cl 5th
Slot ring; Price 2,500 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment.
The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only
sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.
CONSTRUCTION
requirements Forge Ring, create food and water; Cost 1,250 gp
If you look at all the specifications above, the guy is getting the equivalent of 14 hours of rest every time he has a rest cycle. Actually, you could even say he's getting 32 hours of rest since he's resting 8 hours with a ring of sustenance, which gives all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep every 2 hours. Honestly, if 6 hours of sitting around resting and 2 hours of sustenance sleep (8 hours equivalent) isn't enough to recover from 8 hours of walking, then you can't walk 8 hours a day in the first place. And if that's not enough, they guy could sleep 2 hours, get up for four and play solitaire, and sleep for 2 more and get 4 hours of rest and the equivalent of 16 hours of sleep.
I honestly don't see why you don't think this is enough rest. God, I wish I could get the equivalent of 14 to 32 hours of rest between 8 hour walks.
I think you are glossing over the ring of sustenance. Let me pop it in here.
If you look at all the specifications above, the guy is getting the equivalent of 14 hours of rest every time he has a rest cycle. Actually, you could even say he's getting 32 hours of rest since he's resting 8 hours with a ring of sustenance, which gives all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep every 2 hours. Honestly, if 6 hours of sitting around resting and 2 hours of sustenance sleep (8 hours equivalent) isn't enough to recover from 8 hours of walking, then you can't walk 8 hours a day in the first place. And if that's not enough, they guy could sleep 2 hours, get up for four and play solitaire, and sleep for 2 more and get 4 hours of rest and the equivalent of 16 hours of sleep.
I honestly don't see why you don't think this is enough rest. God, I wish I could get the equivalent of 14 to 32 hours of rest between 8 hour walks.
Fair enough. I'll give you that.
The guy with the ring breaks the rules. I agreed to that, but you're right, I calculated replacing his sleep with the ring but not replacing his rest.
He can walk more than once per day without force marching. Not because we're redefining what "day" means, but because he has magic that lets him break the rules.
Even so, all the other guys with no magic to break the rules are clearly limited to 8 hours of walking between sunrises. Any more, and they're force marching.
I think you are glossing over the ring of sustenance. Let me pop it in here.
If you look at all the specifications above, the guy is getting the equivalent of 14 hours of rest every time he has a rest cycle. Actually, you could even say he's getting 32 hours of rest since he's resting 8 hours with a ring of sustenance, which gives all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep every 2 hours. Honestly, if 6 hours of sitting around resting and 2 hours of sustenance sleep (8 hours equivalent) isn't enough to recover from 8 hours of walking, then you can't walk 8 hours a day in the first place. And if that's not enough, they guy could sleep 2 hours, get up for four and play solitaire, and sleep for 2 more and get 4 hours of rest and the equivalent of 16 hours of sleep.
I honestly don't see why you don't think this is enough rest. God, I wish I could get the equivalent of 14 to 32 hours of rest between 8 hour walks.
Fair enough. I'll give you that.
The guy with the ring breaks the rules. I agreed to that, but you're right, I calculated replacing his sleep with the ring but not replacing his rest.
He can walk more than once per day without force marching. Not because we're redefining what "day" means, but because he has magic that lets him break the rules.
Even so, all the other guys with no magic to break the rules are clearly limited to 8 hours of walking between sunrises. Any more, and they're force marching.
Absolutely,
I agree with that. That's the problem with magic, it violates the rules of physics, including game physics. :) But the guy without magic, no, he's forced marching if he does more than 8 hours in a day, no matter what he does. His body just can't keep up.
Fair enough. I'll give you that.
The guy with the ring breaks the rules. I agreed to that, but you're right, I calculated replacing his sleep with the ring but not replacing his rest.
He can walk more than once per day without force marching. Not because we're redefining what "day" means, but because he has magic that lets him break the rules.
Even so, all the other guys with no magic to break the rules are clearly limited to 8 hours of walking between sunrises. Any more, and they're force marching.
If we are willing to agree that "magic breaks the rules" then it seems to me we would follow the rules for preparation of magic laid out in the section of the book about magic no matter how that may jive with our other interpretations of time. After all, magic breaks the rules.
Also, it seems that we have also agreed that it is the rest our marching character takes that determines when the character has to start taking penalties, not the clock on the wall. At which point it would also follow that it is the rest a magic user gets, again not the clock on the wall, that allows them to replenish spell slots. In other words if an arcane caster casts a spell, then rests for a full 8 hours, they get that spell slot back because it is the rest and not the clock that restores them; just like is written in the rules.
I totally saw this post coming! =D
I guess I'll suggest to my group that we do as you recommend, but I think they're going to bite my head off.
*shrug*
I don't play casters or suffer from "spell envy", so it doesn't actually matter to me.