I've been using the channel energy in my STAP game and boy is it powerful. I'm almost regretting the power of this.
One question, for the Feats for Turn Elemental and Turn Outsider, does Spell Resistance apply?
I've been using the channel energy in my STAP game and boy is it powerful. I'm almost regretting the power of this.
Powerful in terms of healing, or powerful in terms of beating up undead? Personally, I don't mind cheap healing (whether it's a wand of CLW or Channel Energy or healing surges or whatever).
One question, for the Feats for Turn Elemental and Turn Outsider, does Spell Resistance apply?
No, Channel Energy is a (Su) ability.
Powerful in terms of healing, or powerful in terms of beating up undead? Personally, I don't mind cheap healing (whether it's a wand of CLW or Channel Energy or healing surges or whatever).
Both. It's MASS CLW or better, that's huge. I don't begrudge the healing either, it's just huge.
No, Channel Energy is a (Su) ability.
Take the feat for it, and it's powerful in taking down outsiders, especially in STAP. Imagine Big D having to flee from a turn!
I haven't found channel energy to be that powerful. Different for sure but it's not like it breaks the game or anything.
It has the interesting side-effect of healing your living enemies as well, which brings an interesting tactical element to your "heal-bomb" :)
It has the interesting side-effect of healing your living enemies as well, which brings an interesting tactical element to your "heal-bomb" :)
There is a feat though, selective channeling, which allows you to remove a target from the burst, one per point of CHA mod.
There are also feats which allow one to turn specific elemental and outsider types.
What's so bad about it being powerful? Begrudge the party its healing? Or the cleric his spells?
What's so bad about it being powerful? Begrudge the party its healing? Or the cleric his spells?
I'm only concerned about it as a balance issue.
What's so bad about it being powerful? Begrudge the party its healing? Or the cleric his spells?I'm only concerned about it as a balance issue.
Don't be. This won't turn clerics into unstoppable juggernauts of destruction or anything. It helps the party as a whole. And it encourages players to play clerics even if they're not keen on spending all their magic on healing others.
What's so bad about it being powerful? Begrudge the party its healing? Or the cleric his spells?I'm only concerned about it as a balance issue.Don't be. This won't turn clerics into unstoppable juggernauts of destruction or anything. It helps the party as a whole. And it encourages players to play clerics even if they're not keen on spending all their magic on healing others.
I have to admit, though, that from my Pathfinder Beta experience there's now a very large difference between a party with a cleric and a party with a druid or bard as the main healer.
I have to admit, though, that from my Pathfinder Beta experience there's now a very large difference between a party with a cleric and a party with a druid or bard as the main healer.
This made me stop and ponder. I don't think I've ever played in a campaign that didn't have a cleric as primary healer. Ever. Mind you, I've played D&D for over 20 years. We've never not had a cleric in the group.
Our current group (PFRPG) has a cleric as primary healer and paladin as secondary healer. Both can quicken their CPE.
It provides some nice leeway when things are going south, but as of yet it has not turned difficult encounters into easy encounters. It does provide a little breathing room which allows the cleric (or paladin) to do something else for a round when they normally would only be healing (which makes it more fun for the person playing the cleric).
On the other hand, it's nasty when the evil priest you've been pursuing shows up with their pack of undead and uses a quickened CNE against you. Ow.
All in all, our group really likes it, and the DM has no problem with it. /salute!
I'm only concerned about it as a balance issue.
I'm actually with you cthulhudarren. I reverted to a house ruled turn undead mechanic. I dislike the healing factor combined with the turn mechanic and decided I just wanted turn undead to basically err turn undead. Here's my version (for those who care).
Turn Undead
Description: The brave cleric is surrounded by creatures of the grave, foul undead hiss and claw all around him, reaching for his throat to suck the lifeblood from his veins. Instantly the cleric holds his holy symbol aloft, brandishing it for all to see, as he speaks words of his faith and summons his gods protection. The cleric is bathed in a warm glow and all creatures of the grave instantly recoil in both terror and pain, the warmth of the clerics god washes over them like a burning inferno, reminding them they will never find the eternal solace they were denied.
Good Clerics and Paladins are able to call upon the light and strength of their god in order to protect them from, and cause damage to, undead creatures. As a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, the character presents his holy symbol. Each undead creature within 30' of the character, at the beginning of its turn, must make a Will save DC 10 + cleric/paladin level + cleric/paladins charisma modifier. Any that fail this saving throw take 1d6 holy damage per 2 cleric/paladin levels, +1 per cleric/paladin level and must immediately move out of the area of effect (30' radius centered on the cleric/paladin) by the shortest and/or fastest route possible. Any that make this saving throw suffer only half damage and are not forced out of the area of effect. Undead creatures must make this saving throw every round they begin their turn inside of the area of effect. This effect may be maintained for up to 2 rounds per cleric/paladin level as a move action. This uses a Channel Energy use. For example, all undead within 30' of a 3rd level cleric when the cleric uses his Channel Energy ability must make Will saves vs. DC15 (10 base +3 lvl +2 cha mod). The undead that fail the save take 1d6+2 (avg 5) holy damage and must move to any spot no closer than 30' from the cleric. Those that make the saving throw take 1d6/2 +2 (avg 4) holy damage and are not compelled to move away.
Alternatively, as a standard action, a cleric or paladin may make a melee attack with his holy symbol. If his symbol is a weapon he attacks normally, dealing normal damage, +1d6 holy damage per two cleric/paladin levels, +2 per cleric/paladin level. If his symbol is not ordinarily used as a weapon, he attacks normally, but using his symbol as an improvised weapon. If he hits, he deals 1d6 base damage for the symbol, +1d6 holy damage per two cleric/paladin levels, +2 per cleric/paladin level. For example, a 7th level cleric attacking with his holy mace deals normal mace damage, +3d6+7 holy damage. A 12th level cleric attacking with his holy symbol (a wooden cross) deals 1d6 +3d6+12 holy damage. Undead damaged in this way must make a Will save DC 10 + cleric/paladin level + cleric/paladins charisma modifier, or be forced to move at least 30' away from the cleric on its next action. This uses a Channel Energy use.
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Energy Channeling is more somethign for a group than for the cleric himself
I remember my cleric in the PFS #1 destroying all the undeads of in Abadar's church with 1 single turn undead (ok... sun domain it was a Superior one and a good roll)... but we at the end of the game almost got half the party killed between undeads and bandits...
Energy channeling helps the party survive longer, enemies get a saving throw, many have channel reistance...
I don't see how it could be too powerful, specially if its a tactical ability, more usually sued to help the group stay on game... and letting them using their spells
I hope the PFRPG don't try to push back the cleric to healbot and the game to 15 minutes day
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I hear it thrown around a lot, but in a lot of different contexts, usually with prayer beads and a few spells, or persistant metamagic. So I was just wanting a clear understanding.
So am I right in saying it is a cleric that decides not to be the party healer?
No, they can heal also. CoDzilla refers to the thought that a properly built cleric or druid is a beast who isn't dependent on anyone else to handle just about anything. The build usually involves the Leadership feat, though.
In my experience, there is something to it. The gnoll cleric in Maure Castle nearly solo TPKed a 13th level party of five on her own, but she was forced to use her word of recall after the rogue critted her on a sneak attack...
I have to admit, though, that from my Pathfinder Beta experience there's now a very large difference between a party with a cleric and a party with a druid or bard as the main healer.
I never saw druids as too much of a healer, though maybe they could boost that a bit.
Bards do have a bit more healing power now, since they get a little more magic (more spells per day and more spells known) and a bardic performance that heals.
The big winners are Paladins.
CoDzilla was real in my experience. He's largely been defanged now.
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I hope the PFRPG don't try to push back the cleric to healbot and the game to 15 minutes day
To me 15 minute days are more a problem with encounter design than how much healing a party has - if the first encounter of each day is one that taps out all your resources (be they spells, HP or Channel Energy uses) then yes, a party will likely want to call it a day to recover.
I do like the Channel Energy ability of Beta, and it has sometimes been needed in our RotR games, but other times I find the dramatic tension of soldiering on in spite of my wounds undermined by the cleric having lots of healing left over at the end of the day.
I do like the Channel Energy ability of Beta, and it has sometimes been needed in our RotR games, but other times I find the dramatic tension of soldiering on in spite of my wounds undermined by the cleric having lots of healing left over at the end of the day.
Couldn't agree more. Too much healing just destroys any tension. For those crying about the 15 minute adventuring day, why not just make it so resources NEVER expire? That way you can complete an entire campaign in one day of in-game time. That'd be swell.
Couldn't agree more. Too much healing just destroys any tension.
Depends on how and how much and how fast.
Even channel energy as it is now won't really help you keep up with a nasty brute beating your friends to pulp. Or everal brutes.
Sure, it's easier to heal everyone back to full between fights, but that was never really a problem.
Right now, channel energy can heal, say, a quarter of your average adventurer's HP in one application. Nice? Yeah, but some critters can beat you half do death in the same time.
I agree that the version in the Beta is very powerful.
It is?
I don't like the way this is going...
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I agree that the version in the Beta is very powerful.It is?
I don't like the way this is going...
Ya know, I have faith in Jason and the folks at Paizo, but I kind of don't like this either ...
I have found that the Cleric's energy channel / healing burst is not at ALL over powered but in fact a fantastic addition to the game. I REALLY hope it is not diminished in any significant way.
Eric or Jason, please reassure us there are no big changes to this that reduce this ability.
Please ...
The only "overpowered" application of channel energy I've seen was used against the PCs at low level, when a group of enemy clerics with Selective Channeling created overlapping areas of negative energy in a death-field.
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While as DM I thought the Beta channel energy was a little too potent, it only got worse as my player's cleric began boosting it with Feats meant for original "turn undead" rules. Porting them over caused a few issues. Nothing we couldn't iron out, however.
Can't wait for the cleric preview on this one!
-DM Jeff
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I do like the Channel Energy ability of Beta, and it has sometimes been needed in our RotR games, but other times I find the dramatic tension of soldiering on in spite of my wounds undermined by the cleric having lots of healing left over at the end of the day.Couldn't agree more. Too much healing just destroys any tension. For those crying about the 15 minute adventuring day, why not just make it so resources NEVER expire? That way you can complete an entire campaign in one day of in-game time. That'd be swell.
that would be boring :P
in the case of my/our complain about 15 minutes day we have the possibility of bad rolls, also check some encounters in the APs, modules and scenarios... some are quite hard, depletic characters of both hit points and spells... and least with some healing boost you can get them pushing forward a bit longer...
when you are in the middle of a small dungeon and the party decides they should better move out because they have been depleted of hit points it does stale the game.
years ago we played "return to temple of elemental evil" and there were times that after a single combat we had to stop, mostly because we had few hit points and no ehaling, even if the wizard had spells we would not keep pushing forward, it was suicidal.
as a GM I believe that there is enough tension to fell a character during a lucky roll in the middle of combat than having them advance with half hit points and no healing... at least half my parties would call it a day
one thing is to be an adventurer... other to eb stupidly suicidal :P
we do create our characters to hve fun and develop them, so we try to keep them alive
While as DM I thought the Beta channel energy was a little too potent, it only got worse as my player's cleric began boosting it with Feats meant for original "turn undead" rules. Porting them over caused a few issues. Nothing we couldn't iron out, however.
Can't wait for the cleric preview on this one!
-DM Jeff
I'm hoping that they scale back the progression. Compare the power to the "Mass" cure spells and you can see it's almost like free Mass cure light for 1st level, multiple times a day.
God help me the DM when the PC cleric takes Turn Outsider(evil) and makes them run away scared.
While as DM I thought the Beta channel energy was a little too potent, it only got worse as my player's cleric began boosting it with Feats meant for original "turn undead" rules. Porting them over caused a few issues. Nothing we couldn't iron out, however.
Can't wait for the cleric preview on this one!
-DM Jeff
I'm hoping that they scale back the progression. Compare the power to the "Mass" cure spells and you can see it's almost like free Mass cure light for 1st level, multiple times a day.
God help me the DM when the PC cleric takes Turn Outsider(evil) and makes them run away scared.
I'm hoping that they scale back the progression. Compare the power to the "Mass" cure spells and you can see it's almost like free Mass cure light for 1st level, multiple times a day.
God help me the DM when the PC cleric takes Turn Outsider(evil) and makes them run away scared.
No worries about that:
This ability does not cause outsiders to flee or fall under your command.
Also Outsiders have all good saves, often decent Wis scores, and the DC is based on *Charisma*, not the Cleric's Wisdom. Even if a cleric starts with good charisma, it usually doesn't increase that fast.
As for Mass Cure Light.. it's nothing like it at first level, but yes, it's roughly the same amount of curing. But it is *tactically* much different, and rarely used in battle without healing the opponents, or missing some friends.
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God help me the DM when the PC cleric takes Turn Outsider(evil) and makes them run away scared.
He didn't help me. The only annoying thing about this particular game was the fleeing thing, and yes, she took the turn outsider feat too.
Of course, my players, being the heroic, brave, and sometimes wreckless folk they are, wound up turning many a simple, clean fight into a sprawling, multiple-city block chase for something that could have been contained neatly. The cleric began to ask towards the end of the game if she could turn off the 'fear' thing.
-DM Jeff
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God help me the DM when the PC cleric takes Turn Outsider(evil) and makes them run away scared.He didn't help me. The only annoying thing about this particular game was the fleeing thing, and yes, she took the turn outsider feat too.
Of course, my players, being the heroic, brave, and sometimes wreckless folk they are, wound up turning many a simple, clean fight into a sprawling, multiple-city block chase for something that could have been contained neatly. The cleric began to ask towards the end of the game if she could turn off the 'fear' thing.
-DM Jeff
quick answer "yes... stop using it :P"
other thing they could do is anchor them in the area then use the possitive channeling :P
I do like the Channel Energy ability of Beta, and it has sometimes been needed in our RotR games, but other times I find the dramatic tension of soldiering on in spite of my wounds undermined by the cleric having lots of healing left over at the end of the day.
If it's a choice between undermining the tension with a healing class feature and undermining the tension with a wand of Cure Light Wounds, I'd prefer to have the class feature.
If I didn't want plentiful(-ish) magical healing (out of combat), I'd be playing Iron Heroes. YMMV, of course.
According to the BETA, page 96 Turn outside or Elemental feats:
"This ability does not cause outsiders or elementals to flee or fall under your command."
Helps avoid those annoying, track-down-the-cowering-creature combats.
I have found that the selective channel feat is now almost a requirement for clerics, and probably later paladins. (A good thing for clerics to have a good feat to choose.)
Also, the changes to play are more subtle then simply a different way to heal the fighter. It is the other members of the party who see a real difference. The characters who don't normally get healed during an encounter, such as the hidden rogue, the wizard and his three summoned creatures, the cleric himself, etc.
Of course, many combats are not affected, but when damage is being spread around, channel energy is huge. And I think it allows a more fun playing style. However, it can be a substantial change when the cleric is absent from the party, and overall power level of the group drops more then if it had been another class.
I think the solution is to allow a channel energy item. Fairly expensive, low DC, and no feats (i.e. selective channel) allowed. Nothing like a replacement for a real cleric, but something better then everyone spending round after round downing potions of CLW.
If only paizo had give us some sort of chance to design a magic item... Oh right, nevermind.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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We will preview the cleric soon and all will be revealed. I'd say "don't expect major changes," but I've come to appreciate that one man's minor change is another's catastrophe, so all I can really say is keep your hats on and try not to worry too much. I can say that we are playing with the final rules in James Jacobs's Shadows Under Sandpoint campaign, and the channel energies are flying fast and furious.
CoDzilla was real in my experience. He's largely been defanged now.The "D", maybe, it's "wait and see" on the "C"...
You think they change divine power back?
keep your hats on
But.... but... *gasp* I'M NOT WEARING A HAT!
OH MY GOOD! WE WON'T RECOGNISE THE CLERIC!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGHH!!!!
*runs around in circles with his hands over his head*
keep your hats on
But.... but... *gasp* I'M NOT WEARING A HAT!
OH MY GOOD! WE WON'T RECOGNISE THE CLERIC!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGHH!!!!
*runs around in circles with his hands over his head*
Umm.. KaeYoss?... What's that?
Umm.. KaeYoss?... What's that?keep your hats on
But.... but... *gasp* I'M NOT WEARING A HAT!
OH MY GOOD! WE WON'T RECOGNISE THE CLERIC!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGHH!!!!
*runs around in circles with his hands over his head*
That's not a hat. That's my hairstyle.
Like the widow's peak?
While as DM I thought the Beta channel energy was a little too potent, it only got worse as my player's cleric began boosting it with Feats meant for original "turn undead" rules. Porting them over caused a few issues. Nothing we couldn't iron out, however.
Can't wait for the cleric preview on this one!
-DM Jeff
I'm hoping that they scale back the progression. Compare the power to the "Mass" cure spells and you can see it's almost like free Mass cure light for 1st level, multiple times a day.
God help me the DM when the PC cleric takes Turn Outsider(evil) and makes them run away scared.
True, but you burned a high level spell slot. Turns are free and easy!
According to the BETA, page 96 Turn outside or Elemental feats:
"This ability does not cause outsiders or elementals to flee or fall under your command."
Helps avoid those annoying, track-down-the-cowering-creature combats.I have found that the selective channel feat is now almost a requirement for clerics, and probably later paladins. (A good thing for clerics to have a good feat to choose.)
Damn you Fergie and your "facts"!
And yes, selective channel is a MUST have. Do enhancement items allow one to qualify for feats?
According to the BETA, page 96 Turn outside or Elemental feats:
"This ability does not cause outsiders or elementals to flee or fall under your command."
Helps avoid those annoying, track-down-the-cowering-creature combats.I have found that the selective channel feat is now almost a requirement for clerics, and probably later paladins. (A good thing for clerics to have a good feat to choose.)
Damn you Fergie and your "facts"!
And yes, selective channel is a MUST have. Do enhancement items allow one to qualify for feats?
It's particularly necessary when your cleric channels negative energy, and the rest of the party doesn't like getting hit with it. :)