Have been thinking about this for awhile, but wanted some feedback from other GM's (DM's, whatever). I've been considering adding in Powerful Build as a 1st-level only feat, with the restriction that you can't take it if you already have a powerful build.
I could see this as especially appropriate for a sorcerer with a bloodline from a possibly massive creature (draconic, for example). Or for a Half-Dragon (got a little extra dragon blood expressing), or for someone with an unusual ancestry (as a background story).
Any thoughts?
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Bad Idea.
Monkey grip is essentially the same thing but with a penalty to attacks (-2 I believe) and that is still a pretty well-liked feat. Making Powerful build into a feat will make every melee-type take it. If a feat is a "must have" by any particular class's roll over most other feats then it is probably a bad idea.
That's my opinion, don't worry someone will be along soon telling me how off base I am in that opinion.
Edit***
Actually I wouldn't mind seeing it as a racial ability that can be gained by giving up certain things like other racial abilities (spell-likes, bonus skill points, bonus feats, (not all just some)etc.) plus the 1st level feat. Basically if it cost roughly equivalent to 2 feats I think that would be good.
Have been thinking about this for awhile, but wanted some feedback from other GM's (DM's, whatever). I've been considering adding in Powerful Build as a 1st-level only feat, with the restriction that you can't take it if you already have a powerful build.
Any thoughts?
First up, what is the proposed effect of your "powerful build" feat? I remember the monkey grip feat as effecting weapon sizes that were usable for a given size user...
Powerful Build (the Goliath's best feature) essentially means you get to count yourself as a large creature for all of the "good stuff," i.e. using larger weapons, having an advantage against grappling, etc., but without the down side (i.e. AC or Dex adjustments).
Personally, I wouldn't think it would be bad as a racial feat for a limited set of races, but not something that could just be taken by just anyone.
Powerful Build (the Goliath's best feature) essentially means you get to count yourself as a large creature for all of the "good stuff," i.e. using larger weapons, having an advantage against grappling, etc., but without the down side (i.e. AC or Dex adjustments).
Personally, I wouldn't think it would be bad as a racial feat for a limited set of races, but not something that could just be taken by just anyone.
Thanks, and I'd pretty much agree with you on usage...
What I was thinking of is exactly as above, a racial feat, sort of. Basically, I'm thinking of it as a feat to avoid bloodlines (The unearthed arcana bloodlines, not PRPG Sorcerer bloodlines).
For example, a halfling sorcerer with draconic bloodline would be someone I could see taking it as a 1st level racial feat. Our halfling would be considered medium when it's to his advantage (grapple checks, etc), but still small for when that's advantageous (AC Bonus, hide check bonus's).
I can easily see someone with a half-dragon template taking it at 1st level (a medium creature would then get wings, etc).
It's not the same as monkey grip, although it supersedes monkeygrip (gives same bonus, but does not stack).
The question is, balancing it out. I'm thinking the balancing out would be partially that you'd have to buy your equipment special made (Our halfling for example would have to have his equipment made, since medium equipment would be a little too big, and small equipment a bit too small, although magical armor/clothing would 'snug up' or 'loosen' to fit him depending on it's default size). That's more of a low-level issue though, of course. Maybe a 25% increase in the base cost of armor/clothing. Then there's the social aspects, which could be either good or bad, depending. People tend to assume someone bigger than average is dumb (this is true in RL, just as there is a sterotype that handsome/blonde = dumb). This would be even more true in a game setting. But that's not a huge limitation. Honestly I'm trying to get a feel for it, but it's kind of hard to match it to anything that's already out there to get a feel for it.
Maybe some pre-reqs? IE: STR & CON 4 more than racial average, and 1st level only?
It would be a pretty powerful feat. It might be a good idea to balance by providing some drawbacks for being bigger, such as taking the size penalty to AC.
Have been thinking about this for awhile, but wanted some feedback from other GM's (DM's, whatever). I've been considering adding in Powerful Build as a 1st-level only feat, with the restriction that you can't take it if you already have a powerful build.
Any thoughts?
Considering I would just about never allow a PC with Powerful Build - I don't think it's a good idea. Seems like a maybe good option for *allowing* those races, if they burn a feat on this.
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It's already a 1st level only human regional feat. It's called Jotunbrud in Races of Faerun. The only difference is you don't get to wield the larger weapon size. My guess is Jotunbrud was the beta for the powerful build ability.
--Vrock'em Sock'em Robots!
It's already a 1st level only human regional feat. It's called Jotunbrud in Races of Faerun. The only difference is you don't get to wield the larger weapon size. My guess is Jotunbrud was the beta for the powerful build ability.
--Vrock'em Sock'em Robots!
I was about to say that. Note that in the Pathfinder Beta rules (at least), Jotunbrud would be a fairly mediocre feat; Large size only gives you a +1 to CMB checks rather than +4 in 3.5e.
I was about to say that. Note that in the Pathfinder Beta rules (at least), Jotunbrud would be a fairly mediocre feat; Large size only gives you a +1 to CMB checks rather than +4 in 3.5e.It's already a 1st level only human regional feat. It's called Jotunbrud in Races of Faerun. The only difference is you don't get to wield the larger weapon size. My guess is Jotunbrud was the beta for the powerful build ability.
--Vrock'em Sock'em Robots!
+1 to *all* CMB's, and CMD, isn't bad at all.
+1 to *all* CMB's, and CMD, isn't bad at all.
I respectfully disagree. YMMV, of course.
+1 to *all* CMB's, and CMD, isn't bad at all.I respectfully disagree. YMMV, of course.
Well, it's very similar to Weapon Focus, which only gives +1 to attacking with a single weapon you choose.
But a feat that gives you +1 to all 6 CMB maneuvers, and +1 to defending against all of them, doesn't seem to be bad at all.
I doubt many people will take this feat unless they plan on using maneuvers often, just like I doubt many people would take Weapon Focus (flail) unless they plan on using flails often.
So getting +1 to all attacks you make with a weapon, or a maneuver-heavy combat style, seems fairly eqivalent.
+1 to *all* CMB's, and CMD, isn't bad at all.I respectfully disagree. YMMV, of course.Well, it's very similar to Weapon Focus, which only gives +1 to attacking with a single weapon you choose.
But a feat that gives you +1 to all 6 CMB maneuvers, and +1 to defending against all of them, doesn't seem to be bad at all.
I doubt many people will take this feat unless they plan on using maneuvers often, just like I doubt many people would take Weapon Focus (flail) unless they plan on using flails often.
So getting +1 to all attacks you make with a weapon, or a maneuver-heavy combat style, seems fairly eqivalent.
Well,
Theoretically, under Pathfinder, you'd get the following :+1 to all attacks made with a Combat Manuever
Ability to wield weapons as if one size larger without penalty.
Various other minor goodies (Monk treated as one size bigger for unarmed damage, half-dragons treated as one size bigger to determine if they get wings, things like that).
Problems with equipment (minor, getting it custom fit).
Have been thinking about this for awhile, but wanted some feedback from other GM's (DM's, whatever). I've been considering adding in Powerful Build as a 1st-level only feat, with the restriction that you can't take it if you already have a powerful build.
I could see this as especially appropriate for a sorcerer with a bloodline from a possibly massive creature (draconic, for example). Or for a Half-Dragon (got a little extra dragon blood expressing), or for someone with an unusual ancestry (as a background story).
Any thoughts?
One thing to be careful of.
If you make a really cool feat (or find one in a splat book, or netbook, somewhere) and think you're limiting it by saying "must be taken at first level" you may be disappointed.
I was.
I found a handful of interesting "background" feats and "bloodline" feats in a 3rd party book and added them into my 3.x game.
Some of them were quie strong, stronger than most feats.
But I only had a dozen or so.
And then I pointed them out during character creation (with over 1200 feats on the list, I didn't want the players to miss out on these background feats just because they didn't find them, and then later they might find them and regret missing them during character generation.
And suddenly I found that every character had a background feat, and humans had two.
They were good enough that everyone snarfed them up during character creation because they could not snarf them up later.
Back to your feat.
It seems really good. Maybe too good. If i were making a melee character in your game, I would almost certainly take this at level 1.
And so would most players making a melee build.
So prepare for that.
One way to mitigate this effect is to have many many "background" feats that are only available at level 1. Make them all very cool. This way, at level 1, your players will have to make decisions because there are so many options.
Everyone would still get a cool background feat, but they wouldn't all necessarily take Powerful Build.
They were good enough that everyone snarfed them up during character creation because they could not snarf them up later.Back to your feat.
It seems really good. Maybe too good. If i were making a melee character in your game, I would almost certainly take this at level 1.
And so would most players making a melee build.
So prepare for that.
One way to mitigate this effect is to have many many "background" feats that are only available at level 1. Make them all very cool. This way, at level 1, your players will have to make decisions because there are so many options.
Everyone would still get a cool background feat, but they wouldn't...
Yep,
I already allow some of the background feats from Forgotton Realms, and some of the races books, and most of them are 1st level only (Like Fleet of Foot (+10 base movement), or Educated (All Knowledge skills are always class skills, and you get a +2 bonus to a number of Knowledge skills equal to your INT Bonus) to name a few). To be honest, most of the background 1st level only feats are geared towards non-melee types, so I was thinking of adding in the Powerful Build to give the fighter/melee types something to snarf up for a background feat. Although honestly, I've only had one person take one of the 1st-level only's so far.I took the educated and fleet of foot for a acrobat I made for a game someone else is running. But then, I'm building the character as a massive movement high-dex mage-killer. Not a front line fighter. The knowledge skill boosts I took because the background I typed up kind of needed them. Not that I'll use the knowledges much in game.
Is there any other feat a frist level melee fighter would choose over it? I can't think of any. A feat so powerful it can't be skipped to me is too powerful. That's my veiw anyway.
Well, it's very similar to Weapon Focus, which only gives +1 to attacking with a single weapon you choose.
[...]
So getting +1 to all attacks you make with a weapon, or a maneuver-heavy combat style, seems fairly eqivalent.
I think Weapon Focus is a fairly weak feat, but at least you get to use it with pretty much every attack, and it's sometimes a prerequisite for other, better feats and/or prestige classes. In my experience, even a focused maneuver expert (e.g. a grappler) doesn't use maneuvers all the time. Maybe half the time. So a PFRPG Beta version of Jotunbrud would be about half as good as a fairly weak feat (Weapon Focus). That's more like a trait, in my book.
Again, YMMV.
Well,
Theoretically, under Pathfinder, you'd get the following :+1 to all attacks made with a Combat Manuever
Ability to wield weapons as if one size larger without penalty.
Various other minor goodies (Monk treated as one size bigger for unarmed damage, half-dragons treated as one size bigger to determine if they get wings, things like that).
Problems with equipment (minor, getting it custom fit).
I was specifically referring to the Jotunbrud feat, which does not give the "wield big weapons" ability or the "minor goodies" you list. I agree that the set of abilities that you list (including "wield big weapons") would be worth a feat.
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+1 to *all* CMB's, and CMD, isn't bad at all.
I think that this is an important point. +1 to all CMB's is on par with weapon focus (as pointed out previously) your feat better than that.
Well,
Theoretically, under Pathfinder, you'd get the following :+1 to all attacks made with a Combat Manuever
Ability to wield weapons as if one size larger without penalty.
Various other minor goodies (Monk treated as one size bigger for unarmed damage, half-dragons treated as one size bigger to determine if they get wings, things like that).
Problems with equipment (minor, getting it custom fit).
Weapon Focus + Monkey Grip + other cool bonuses - 1 minor flaw. still leaves you with a double feat. If this doesn't bother you then no problem for your home game.
That said if I found this feat in a game book I'd question the designer's understanding of the rules and would have to fine tooth comb everything else in the book. I'd also probably never purchase anything from that company again. IMO any feat I add to my game should be roughly balanced to all the other feats in the game.
The Dragonlance Campaign setting had a feat for Half-Ogres and Minotaurs called Hulking Brute. HB only counts you as large when it is advantageous to you in situations with opposed rolls. (DLCS p86)
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I think Weapon Focus is a fairly weak feat, but at least you get to use it with pretty much every attack, and it's sometimes a prerequisite for other, better feats and/or prestige classes. In my experience, even a focused maneuver expert (e.g. a grappler) doesn't use maneuvers all the time. Maybe half the time. So a PFRPG Beta version of Jotunbrud would be about half as good as a fairly weak feat (Weapon Focus). That's more like a trait, in my book.
Again, YMMV.
You may be right that +1 for CMB may be a weak feat but I don't think that it would be a full on trait weak. and with the other added goodies and a +1CMB this feat is still way better than monkey grip. Not a balanced feat.
But as you say YMMV.
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Powerful Build (the Goliath's best feature) essentially means you get to count yourself as a large creature for all of the "good stuff," i.e. using larger weapons, having an advantage against grappling, etc., but without the down side (i.e. AC or Dex adjustments).
Personally, I wouldn't think it would be bad as a racial feat for a limited set of races, but not something that could just be taken by just anyone.
Too powerful...especially if there are no penalties...
(and what? a small character couldn't have Powerful build and be counted as a medium)
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There might be room in the game for a feat similar to what you are looking for if instead of a single feat you make it into a feat chain.
Powerful Build (just +1 cmb) then Monkey Grip then something else maybe. I don't know but might have some merit to think about it in this manner.
Powerful Build (the Goliath's best feature) essentially means you get to count yourself as a large creature for all of the "good stuff," i.e. using larger weapons, having an advantage against grappling, etc., but without the down side (i.e. AC or Dex adjustments).
Personally, I wouldn't think it would be bad as a racial feat for a limited set of races, but not something that could just be taken by just anyone.
Too powerful...especially if there are no penalties...
(and what? a small character couldn't have Powerful build and be counted as a medium)
Actually,
This is why I wanted to add it. Right now, the only 'powerful build' races are Goliaths and Half-Giants. I think a really really bulky halfling with rippling muscles and an extra foot of height should be able to pass for medium, when it's to his advantage.|
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Actually,
This is why I wanted to add it. Right now, the only 'powerful build' races are Goliaths and Half-Giants. I think a really really bulky halfling with rippling muscles and an extra foot of height should be able to pass for medium, when it's to his advantage.
I really think this part of the design reasoning is not only kinda cool but also rather sound.
I might try to steer clear of making it only tied to size as it limits other non mechanical choices. A simple +1 CMB/CMD modifier does the same thing and can be explained a couple of different ways including size.
Hmmm,
ok, different tact.
Powerful Build Template
This template is an inherited template, and can only be applied at 1st level.
Type/Subtype: No change
Hit Die: No Change
Unarmed Damage:
Increase the base creature's unarmed damage by one size category (A small creature does 1d6, a medium does 1d8, etc).
Special Abilities:
Bigger Size : The base creature is treated as one size category larger whenever it is convenient for that creature to be considered so. They are considered their normal size whenever it is convenient for that creature to be considered so.
Examples, A creature with this template gains a size bonus to CMD when it is advantageous to do so. They gain AC bonus's but do not take AC penalties (for example, a Medium creature gains the Large creature size bonus to CMD/CMB, but does not take the AC penalty associated with being large. A Small creature gains the AC bonus for being small, but does not take penalties to their CMD/CMB for being small.). The creature may use whichever of it's two sizes is more advantageous for purposes of avoiding other creatures special attacks like swallow, engulf, and overrun.
The creature may wield weapons of their own size, or one size larger, interchangeably without penalty.
There are some minor disadvantages to being larger than your fellows in your species, but these are minor enough that they should be roleplayed out. Some examples are normal furniture and beds are uncomfortable, non-magical clothing and armor has to be specially made and fitted, increased food requirements (up to 2x normal for the race).
Magical clothing and armor has enough 'elasticity' to either 'expand' (if it is the creature's default size) or 'snug up' (if it is the creature's increased size).
ECL: +1
I think a really really bulky halfling with rippling muscles and an extra foot of height should be able to pass for medium, when it's to his advantage.
And, you could give him a beard, and an axe, and a fondness for ale, too...
And dinnae ferget ta hae 'im speak wi' a prroperrr brrrrogue noo!
I think a really really bulky halfling with rippling muscles and an extra foot of height should be able to pass for medium, when it's to his advantage.And, you could give him a beard, and an axe, and a fondness for ale, too...
And dinnae ferget ta hae 'im speak wi' a prroperrr brrrrogue noo!
Hehe,
Not trying to make viking halflings (well, actually, that does sound kinda cool, come to think of it, although the humans would be very nervous around those horned helmets if you think about where they'd be on a viking halfling). And deffinately not trying to turn them into a dwarf. Just thinking of a way to add some more variety in, making a clan of muscle-bound gnomes (which, also thinking of it, is hugely entertaining).
Powerful Build Template
This template is an inherited template, and can only be applied at 1st level.
Type/Subtype: No change
Hit Die: No Change
Unarmed Damage:
Increase the base creature's unarmed damage by one size category (A small creature does 1d6, a medium does 1d8, etc).
Special Abilities:
Bigger Size : The base creature is treated as one size category larger whenever it is convenient for that creature to be considered so. They are considered their normal size whenever it is convenient for that creature to be considered so.
Examples, A creature with this template gains a size bonus to CMD when it is advantageous to do so. They gain AC bonus's but do not take AC penalties (for example, a Medium creature gains the Large creature size bonus to CMD/CMB, but does not take the AC penalty associated with being large. A Small creature gains the AC bonus for being small, but does not take penalties to their CMD/CMB for being small.). The creature may use whichever of it's two sizes is more advantageous for purposes of avoiding other creatures special attacks like swallow, engulf, and overrun.
The creature may wield weapons of their own size, or one size larger, interchangeably without penalty.
There are some minor disadvantages to being larger than your fellows in your species, but these are minor enough that they should be roleplayed out. Some examples are normal furniture and beds are uncomfortable, non-magical clothing and armor has to be specially made and fitted, increased food requirements (up to 2x normal for the race).
ECL: +1
That's interesting.
But it's inconsistent with itself.
Why would special armor and clothing have to be made and fitted?
It already says they can count as either size when it's convenient. - sure sounds inconvenient to have to make special clothing and armor arrangements.
Also, why should the powerful guy get to use weapons bigger than his natural size, and get the attack modifiers and CMB bonuses bigger than his usual size, but yet he's too small to wear armor of that bigger size?
If this template is going to justify a +1 ECL, I say let them wear whatever size armor they find convenient.
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I still don't like it as a template, I actually HATE Goliaths, and in Golarion they're extinct...driven to extinction in revenge for the excesses of abuse by the power gamer faction...
heh.
At least Monkey Grip comes with a -2 penalty to all attacks...
Powerful Build just breaks all the barriers of balance.
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I think a really really bulky halfling with rippling muscles and an extra foot of height should be able to pass for medium, when it's to his advantage.And, you could give him a beard, and an axe, and a fondness for ale, too...
And dinnae ferget ta hae 'im speak wi' a prroperrr brrrrogue noo!
Hehe,
Not trying to make viking halflings (well, actually, that does sound kinda cool, come to think of it, although the humans would be very nervous around those horned helmets if you think about where they'd be on a viking halfling). And deffinately not trying to turn them into a dwarf. Just thinking of a way to add some more variety in, making a clan of muscle-bound gnomes (which, also thinking of it, is hugely entertaining).
I don't know that a template is the way to go. It would work for NPCs but PCs? Unless you want to create a whole bunch of templates so that every character in the party had the option to take one. Feats are good because every PC gets them as a apart of the regular creation rules.
Of course I'm not a big enough fan of templates to introduce new ones without good reason. I tend to think for a case like this feats really would be the way to go.
You might check out the Book of Experimental Might. Its been a while since I've read through it but the concept of double feats might be of use to you.
That's interesting.But it's inconsistent with itself.
Why would special armor and clothing have to be made and fitted?
It already says they can count as either size when it's convenient. - sure sounds inconvenient to have to make special clothing and armor arrangements.
Also, why should the powerful guy get to use weapons bigger than his natural size, and get the attack modifiers and CMB bonuses bigger than his...
Heh, mainly because I was trying to put in some flavor. I was thinking basically he'd have to get his stuff tailored.
"Hey, Mr. Sobler, I found this really nice robe. Can you take the waist out a little though? And let out the shoulders? And lower the hem an inch? It belonged to a wizard I kni... er... I got it at a second hand store, and it was made for a guy your size." Pause. "The red stuff? Oh... that's spilt wine. Oh, that reminds me, there's a cut in the cloth in the middle of that wine stain, can you clean the wine stain out and sew that back up? Thanks Mr. Sobler, I'll be back in a few days, here's a couple of silver pieces."
Hmmm,
ok, different tact.Powerful Build Template
[...]
I'd give it a "+2 Str/-2 Dex" modifer over the base race, as well. Then it'd be worth +1 level adjustment.
I'd give it a "+2 Str/-2 Dex" modifer over the base race, as well. Then it'd be worth +1 level adjustment.Hmmm,
ok, different tact.Powerful Build Template
[...]
Actually,
That's an even up trade. Dex and Str are equally important stats. If it was +2 Str/-2 Dex/+2 Con instead...|
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I'd give it a "+2 Str/-2 Dex" modifer over the base race, as well. Then it'd be worth +1 level adjustment.Hmmm,
ok, different tact.Powerful Build Template
[...]Actually,
That's an even up trade. Dex and Str are equally important stats. If it was +2 Str/-2 Dex/+2 Con instead...
Agreed and then the template (with ignoring the armor issues) would be worth the +1 ECL.