First, some things have been changed from Beta to the final rules. The final rules haven't been released yet, so we don't know for certain what has changed. I mention this, because I am going to answer your questions from the Beta, and I don't want you thinking that is all there is to it.
1. are all talents one use only (like finesse rouge :enter weapon type:) can i take that for more than one weapon of is it just exactly that just that one weapon just that one time?
and same with the spells that they can get....is it only the one spell and thats it or can they take it more than once and get more than just one spell.2. a close in fighter build..i an wracking my brains trying to find a way for my rogue to keep up with the partys new fighter (the whole team is trying pathfinder for the first time).
Sec. 1.a: dose sneak attack count for all my attacks for that round?
as in like say i take 2 weapon fighting, do i get sneak attack with both attacks or just the first one? (i never played a rogue in 3.5 so i have no idea how this works exactly.3. i am gonna play a human...what weapons can i take with "weapon training" trait? are exotics included and what would be a good fit for my rogue build?
1)a) You can only take a talent once. So once you take Combat Trick, you can't take it again to get another feat.
1)b) Weapon Finesse applies to all finesseable weapons. That was changed from 3.0 to 3.5.2) Sneak Attack applies to every attack that qualifies for it. If you can get 20 attacks in one round that qualify for Sneak Attack, they all get Sneak Attack.
3) Weapon Training can only be used for Martial Weapons. My suggestion would be War Razor if you are going for a two weapon fighter.
on a side note when it says at 10th lvl, advanced talent, rogue talent
do you get one of each ir is it jsut telling you that you can now pick one?
Basically "Advanced Talent" simply means that you now have access to the advanced talents, with your "Rogue Talent" choices. It's just one at 10th level.
I specified I was answering from the Beta primarily because we are fairly certain that Weapon Training is droped from Humans.
When the level chart says "Advanced talent, rogue talent" at level 10, if you look up the ability Advanced Talent it tells you that from level 10 on you can select and Advanced talent in place of a Rogue talent. So, no. You do not get one of each.
Stats on the War Razor can be found in the Rise of the Runelords Player's guide (which I believe you will find in your My Downloads section as freely available), and the Campaign Setting book.
As for your build, I see no major flaws... But without knowing the kind of game you will be playing, I can't give you any better suggestions.
With your group low on magic, particularly healing magic, I'd strongly recommend the talent Resiliency. And I'd strongly suggest getting it as early as possible.
I thought so but the way it is printed in the book doesn't make that exactly clear. Hopefully the official release clarifies that.
Basically "Advanced Talent" simply means that you now have access to the advanced talents, with your "Rogue Talent" choices. It's just one at 10th level.
You're right. I think they are aware that it wasn't clear though.
i thought about that but my build has an 18 con plus imtakin the plus one HP from favored class. add to that my gm is gonna go with the racial HP idea as well...
More HP is nice.
It lets you survive a tough fight that a lesser man (with fewer HP) would not have survived.
But then, after the fight, the real problem sets in.
Now you have all these wounds, enough to kill a lesser man. They need to be healed.
Natural healing will do it, as long as you can get 4 days of bed rest with a qualified healer, or a week of bed rest without.
Do you really want to go a week between each fight?
Or you can go with potions/wands of Cure X Wounds.
Except there is a flaw.
Imagine a group of PCs who all have exactly 4 HP. The fighter, the cleric, the rogue, and the mage. Fully healed, they each have a max of 4 HP.
Now they fight a battle against a few orcs. After they win the fight, a really close fight, they are all down to 1 or 2 HP left. The cleric can easily heal the whole group up to full with 4 Cure Light Wounds (or a single Channel Energy).
Now imagine a group of PCs who all have 40 HP when fully healed. Now these fight a battle against a whole bunch of orcs. After they win the fight, a really close fight, they are all down to 1 or 2 HP left. The cleric would need about 28 Cure Light Wounds (or 8 Channel Energy uses).
My point is, after the battle, when it's time to heal, you can really pay the price in resources for having high HP and taking lots of damage.
If you ever played Dungeons and Dragons Online, you may have seen this problem. It was a glaring problem with Warforged and with Barbarians, and it was 10x worse with Warforged Barbarians.
In DDO I played a cleric. I'm always a cleric in online games. I'm good at it. We could form a group and go off to Dungeon X with our main tank being a fighter in full plate. He has lower HP than a barbarian, but way higher AC. I as a cleric had limited healing resources. But we would get through the dugeon just fine. Then our fighter would have to leave, and we would replace him with a barbarian and go back to the very same Dungeon X. Five of us just did this dungeon with no problems, but now with that barbarian, he loses so many HP that I run out of heals and we fail the dungeon. This happened over and over and over. High HP/low AC barbarian kills a perfect group, but the fighter with the much higher AC gets the same group through, easily in fact.
All this is to say that your comment about having an 18 CON, bonus HP from favored class, and racial HP, just means that yeah, you survive the fights better, but it takes a ton of resources to heal you after the fight.
High HP not always a win/win.
Basically "Advanced Talent" simply means that you now have access to the advanced talents, with your "Rogue Talent" choices. It's just one at 10th level.on a side note when it says at 10th lvl, advanced talent, rogue talent
do you get one of each ir is it jsut telling you that you can now pick one?
This is correct.
Every time you see the "Rogue Talent" in the advancement table, you can pick a rogue talent from the rogue talent list.
The "Advanced Talent" only appears once in the chart.
When you read what it says, it doesn't say "pick a talent from this list." Instead, it says "Here's a new list of talents that adds to the original list. You may pick from either list any time you are allowed a 'Rogue Talent' when you gain a level."
Yeah, that's not a direct quote; it's paraphrased.
But that's basically what it says and definitely what it means.
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If it meant it the other way, such that when you see "Advanced Talent" you would pick an advanced talent, then it would be too bad that rogues can only pick one advanced talent at 10th level and never again.
Clearly that isn't what the designers intended, ambiguity or not.
why do you need a wizard?
You don't.
The game is only hard without a Cleric, and that's only if your campaigns are heavy combat based.
Might wanna rethink the Rapier.
As a two weapon fighter you can't really use two of them without penalty - sadly Short swords are where it's at.
Might wanna rethink the Rapier.
As a two weapon fighter you can't really use two of them without penalty - sadly Short swords are where it's at.
True.
But it doesn't matter too much.
A rapier in primary hand and a short sword in off-hand is good enough.
Although, a few combat feats (such as Weapon Focus) require you to specify one weapon when you take it, so if you select rapier, you won't get the feat's benefit on your short sword without taking the feat again. Prohibitively expensive.
So if you plan those types of feats, definitely consider wielding two identical weapons so both weapons benefit from the feats, which means, as Shifty said, rethink the rapier.
Might wanna rethink the Rapier.
As a two weapon fighter you can't really use two of them without penalty - sadly Short swords are where it's at.
True.
But it doesn't matter too much.
A rapier in primary hand and a short sword in off-hand is good enough.
Although, a few combat feats (such as Weapon Focus) require you to specify one weapon when you take it, so if you select rapier, you won't get the feat's benefit on your short sword without taking the feat again. Prohibitively expensive.
So if you plan those types of feats, definitely consider wielding two identical weapons so both weapons benefit from the feats, which means, as Shifty said, rethink the rapier.
Well,
*IF* you are using the WoTC splat books, there's a feat that lets you use larger weapons in the off hand (Large Offhand Weapon I think it is, in Compleat Adventurer) that let's you wield a one-handed weapon in your off hand. So you could wield two rapiers (I've done this before, and it works nicely, but it costs you a feat).
Prohibitively expensive.
Yeah that's where I'm coming from.
Although I still personally think that rapiers are in the wrong category and SHOULD be able to be d/w, but that's just my opinion :)
Twin Shorties seemed to be best bang for buck in my write up.
Don't bother trying to get near the Fighter when it comes to damage output - no build will get you even close. Rogues are only good if they get the drop on the opponent (think tactically) and then they shine.
In a 1v1 straight shoot out the party tank would ruin your day fast.
Work WITH the tank for maximum effectiveness :)
whats the big bonus of short swords vs rapier?
The attack penalties are much more substantial when wielding 2X1h vs 2Xlight
Rogues aren't the best when it comes to hitting stuff in the first place... those mods are pretty much a deal breaker.
-2/-2 Shorts OR -4/-4 Rapier.
whats the big bonus of short swords vs rapier?The attack penalties are much more substantial when wielding 2X1h vs 2Xlight
Rogues aren't the best when it comes to hitting stuff in the first place... those mods are pretty much a deal breaker.
-2/-2 Shorts OR -4/-4 Rapier.
Yes,
But, the advantage of the Rapier is it's crit range, which means you're more likely to crit. This is especially true if you take Improved Crit, or make them Keen. I'd argue that IC/Keen and two rapiers is actually better, even with the extra -2. You're trading a +2 on each attack for doubling the chances of critting.
never the less....im willing to take suggestions
hre are my stats
str: 12
dex: 16
con: 16 (+2 racial mod)
int: 14
wis: 11
cha: 13
Can you tweak to WIS 12 and CHA 12? Can't hurt to be better at Perception and at Will saves. Unless the point buy won't allow it, or you need a 13 CHA for a prerequisite for something you want to do.
male human rouge (1st lvl)
Nope nope, not a "rouge".
feats: toughness, dodge
skills: sneak attack (1d6), trapfinding
These are not skills. They are class abilities.
HP: 22 (6 from racial hit point, see book. +4 from con if racial mod is left there, +3 from toughness, +8 from maximum hit points for first lvl(standing house rule), and +1 from favored class
I know, as a human rogue, you get millions of skill points. But are you sure you're best served by getting this one HP? More skills never hurt a rogue.
AC: (havent picked armor yet)
main weapon of choice: rapier
Already commented on this.
now i want close in fighter (basicaly a rogue that can keep up with or possibly take down a fighter)
Yikes. Good luck.
One-on-one? Not gonna happen.
You need sneak attack to even have a chance, and that's really hard to pull off when you're face-to-face.
You could do it with the Bluff skill, but you'll never get to use iterative attacks or two-weapon fighting. Just one attack per round if you're feinting to get sneak attack, and that fighter will be wailing all over you.
You won't have his AC, you won't have his HP, you won't have his BAB, and you won't have his damage output.
It's nice to dream high, but you may want to remember just who and what your rogue is: a sneaky guy who likes to catch enemies off-guard and by surprise, nailing them from behind and landing the heavy damage - right in their kidneys.
Maybe a dream more like "now I want a close-in fighter (basically a rogue who can do as much damage, or more, than the fighter in my adventuring party)".
Now that you can do.
I would highly suggest dipping 5 levels of fighter.
The extra BAB and HP won't hurt, neither will 3 extra feats, +1 to hit and damage with your short swords, +1 AC, -1 Armor Check penalties, way better Fort saves, and the ability to take Weapon Specialization with your short swords.
I have often found that alternating rogue and fighter levels early on worked well in 3.5, though I have yet to do it in Pathfinder.
My last rogue was, at 9th level, a rogue5/fighter4 and had maxed out skills in search, spot, disable device, open lock, hide, and move silently. This is probably even easier to pull off in Pathfinder with the skill consolidation.
That does cost you some sneak attack dice, and in Pathfinder, will slow down those handy rogue talents, but you will get your iterative attacks sooner, you will hit more often, your base damage will be higher, you'll have more feats, and you'll live longer - that's probably worth it.
definately 2 weapon fighting.
That's a matter of choice. It works well, but other things work well too.
how would you progress the build (just rogue talent and feats lvl by lvl).... thats what i need is others people input and how they might go about it.
Sure.
Rogue1
Fighter1
Rogue2
Fighter2
.
.
.
Rogue5
Fighter5
Rogue6
Rogue7
Rogue8
.
.
.
Rogue15
Ending up with Rogue15/Fighter5.
Feats and talents are up to you. There are a great many ways to go about it, you should have plenty of time to plan ahead and find the path (no Pathfinder pun intended) that is right for you.
Yes,
But, the advantage of the Rapier is it's crit range, which means you're more likely to crit. This is especially true if you take Improved Crit, or make them Keen. I'd argue that IC/Keen and two rapiers is actually better, even with the extra -2. You're trading a +2 on each attack for doubling the chances of critting.
Yeah and that's a valid counter argument that I think is reasonably well thought through. My personal taste would still be to avoid that extra -2/-2 from the rapier as I prefer to hit more consistently.
If this guy is kicking on from the low levels though, he wont be seeing IC for some time, and keen may or may not happen depending on his campaign... He would be in a good position to judge though, and at least we have given him some food for thought :)
whats the big bonus of short swords vs rapier?The attack penalties are much more substantial when wielding 2X1h vs 2Xlight
Rogues aren't the best when it comes to hitting stuff in the first place... those mods are pretty much a deal breaker.
-2/-2 Shorts OR -4/-4 Rapier.
Yes,
But, the advantage of the Rapier is it's crit range, which means you're more likely to crit. This is especially true if you take Improved Crit, or make them Keen. I'd argue that IC/Keen and two rapiers is actually better, even with the extra -2. You're trading a +2 on each attack for doubling the chances of critting.
Improved Crit doesn't stack with Keen. it's not clear from your post if you are aware of this or not.
It says so in the feat:
This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.
You're not "doubling the chance of critting".
Not even close.
Being able to threaten a crit 5% more often, or 10% more often if you have Keen or Improved Critical, won't do you very much good if you are 10% less likely to confirm those criticals. More threats but fewer confirms works out to about the same number of critical hits.
Combine that with being 10% less likely to hit in general, meaning 10% fewer sneak attacks, and your iterative attacks are off the charts for raw suckage, and that -4/-4 from rapier is going to kill you more than your enemies. Heck, the -2/-2 for dual wielding is bad enough, and a huge argument for using just a single weapon to make sure to land a high percentage of your sneak attacks.
If I had the time, I would lay it all out mathematically. I have seen it before in some of these forums (though it may habe been a different website, or it may have been here at Paizo, I don't remember exactly where).
Suffice to say that the increase threat of a critical is good, but the loss of some of the confirmations mostly balances it out, and the number of crits you land is approximately the same. But since the number of non-critical hits that you land also goes down, and the number of successful sneak attacks that you land also goes down, your total damage output over the long-term goes down if you try to dual-wield rapiers instead of shortswords.
That's just the way the math works out. Hopefully you can see what I mean without having a page full of numbers to back it up.
Another consideration. Suppose you forget two-weapons entirely. Go with, for example, a bastard sword (wielding it two-handed you don't even need a feat).
1. Now you do, on average, 2 HP more with every single hit because the weapon does more damage.
2. Now you only need one magic weapon instead of two, so your resources will be easier to manage.
3. Now you won't be -2/-2 anymore, you will be -0 with just one weapon, so that one weapon will hit more.
4. Now you will land more successful sneak attacks.
5. Now you will confirm more critical hits.
6. Now you will land more of your iterative attacks when you get them.
7. Now you won't get an extra one attack (two attacks at higher levels) via dual wielding.
Those one or two attacks you lose for point #7 mean you will do less damage. But those attacks, and all your other attacks, would have been at -2, causing more misses and less overall damage.
All the extra damage you do by hitting more often, and critting more, and sneak attacking more, and using a bigger weapon, can add up to about the same total damage, over a long time, as you would do with two lighter, less accurate weapons. This math is a tough call - it's very even, maybe with a slight advantage to two-weapon fighting.
But, with only one weapon to enchant, you can make it better, or you can spend your resources on something else, like better armor, or a ring of Invisibility. That right there offsets the small advantage that two-weapon fighting gives.
It's a tough call there. I'd say do what sounds the most fun, both ideas work. And since you seem to like dual-wielding, I say go for it.
Just don't fall for the rapier trap - if you do, you will certainly do less damage.
The rapier trap isn't as much of a trap if you use the Critical Focus feat from the forum posted additional feats.
But otherwise DM_Blake pretty much has the right of it.
It might be worth considering Rapier + War Razor + Critical Focus, but then you need to figure out how best to get the improved threat range for both...
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whats the big bonus of short swords vs rapier?The attack penalties are much more substantial when wielding 2X1h vs 2Xlight
Rogues aren't the best when it comes to hitting stuff in the first place... those mods are pretty much a deal breaker.
-2/-2 Shorts OR -4/-4 Rapier.
Yes,
But, the advantage of the Rapier is it's crit range, which means you're more likely to crit. This is especially true if you take Improved Crit, or make them Keen. I'd argue that IC/Keen and two rapiers is actually better, even with the extra -2. You're trading a +2 on each attack for doubling the chances of critting.
Critting with a rapier for an extra d6 + STR is not worth going from -2 to -4. It's better to be at -2/-2 with two short swords rather than -4/-4 with two rapiers. In a flank situation, remember that each attack deals sneak damage. So, assuming you're a 10th level rogue in a flanking position, would you rather hit twice in a round with two short swords for 1d6 + STR + 5d6 on EACH attack (critting on a 19-20 for an extra 1d6 + STR); or would you be ready to go from -2/-2 to -4/-4 for the EXACT SAME THING except critting on 18-20 for that extra d6 + STR, instead of just 19-20?
You see how the critting part of the rapier vs. the critting part of the short sword is rather irrelevant when you have 5d6 sneak damage on EACH attack. At level 20, this becomes 10d6 sneak damage on each attack...
When you're a rogue, you want to maximize your number of attacks, and minimize your attack penalties. Fighters can benefit from higher crit ranges better as they don't have sneak damage and rely on STR bonus AND weapon specialization for extra damage (both of which get multiplied on a crit, unlike sneak damage, which doesn't)
Yes,
But, the advantage of the Rapier is it's crit range, which means you're more likely to crit. This is especially true if you take Improved Crit, or make them Keen. I'd argue that IC/Keen and two rapiers is actually better, even with the extra -2. You're trading a +2 on each attack for doubling the chances of critting.Improved Crit doesn't stack with Keen. it's not clear from your post if you are aware of this or not.
It says so in the feat:
This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.
Yes, I'm quite aware of that, that is why I said OR above (see bolded text in quote).
You're not "doubling the chance of critting".Not even close.
Being able to threaten a crit 5% more often, or 10% more often if you have Keen or Improved Critical, won't do you very much good if you are 10% less likely to confirm those criticals. More threats but fewer confirms works out to about the same number of critical hits.
You are correct, I meant threaten a crit, since, obviously, we can't actually confirm a crit without knowing the attacker/defender stats.
Beyond that though, I'm not sure how your math is working. But... let's take a look.
Assuming a rapier, as discussed, the threat range is 18-20 (Per PF Beta). Improved Critical (OR keen) doubles the threat range.
18-19-20 is a 15% threat range.
Double 15% to 30% and you get 15-20 threat crit range.
Note that's an extra 15% on the threat range, not 5% as you stated above. The section about more threats but fewer confirms doesnt' make sense. Anything that threatens on 15 also converts on a 15, so that's a null argument. You can't roll a 15 and threaten a crit and have a lower chance of converting than what you rolled. You can have a greater (a 10 might convert), but you can't need a 17 to convert if you threatened successfully on a 15. So that part of your argument falls flat.
On the assumption that a 15+ threatens a crit (and we'll make that the minimum successful to-hit to make the math easier), then we have the following :
Crit Threat = 30% chance
Chance of Conversion = 30%
Chance of a Crit on any given attack = 0.30 * 0.30 = 0.09% Not quite 10%
Without Keen or IC
Crit Threat = 15% chance
Chance of Conversion = 30% (A 15 still confirms, even if it doesn't threaten)
Chance of Crit on any given attack = 0.15 * 0.3 = 0.045%
Ergo, from above, you are doubling your chances of obtaining a crit if you can hit on a 15.
Now, let's take a differnt poke at it. Let's take a 10th level rogue, with Weapon Finesse and an 18 dex. We'll put him up against someone with a 24 AC. I could put him up against a tricked out defense defense, or a sorcerer with almost no armor, but I'm trying to pick an middle of the road AC. We'll give him two +1 Keen Rapier's (Or, if you prefer, a +1 Keen Rapier and a +1 Keen shortsword). Someone earlier in the thread said two rapier's is a -4/-4. I'll assume that was correct. And that a Rapier/Shortsword would be -2/-2
BAB: +7/2
STR: +1
DEX: +4
Weapon : +1
Two-Weapon Fighting and Imp Two Weapon Fighting
Attacks (2 rapier) : +8/+8, +3/+3
Attacks (Rap/SS) : +10/+10, +5/+5
Bastard Sword : +10, +5
With the twin rapier's :
Chance of Hitting with the first two attacks: 16+ (25%) each
Chance of Hitting with the second two attacks : 20 (5%) each
Chance of Threatening on first two : 25% (16+) each
Chance of Threatening on the second two : 5% (20) each
Chance of a crit on first two : 6% (Each)
Chance of a crit on the second two : 0.25% (Each)
Total chance of at least one crit in any one round : 12.5%
With the rapier/short sword
Chance of Hitting with the first two attacks: 14+ (35%) each
Chance of Hitting with the second two attacks : 19+ (10%) each
Chance of Threatening on first rapier : 30% (15+)
Chance of Threatening on first Shortswrod : 10% (19+)
Chance of Threatening on second rapier : 10% (19+)
Chance of Threatening on second Shortswrod: 10% (19+)
Chance of a crit on first rapier : 10.5%
Chance of a crit on first Shortsowrd : 3.5%
Chance of a crit on Second Rapier : 1.0%
Chance of a crit on Second Shortsword: 1.0%
Total chance of at least one crit in any one round : 16%
Bastardsword
Chance of Hitting with first attack : 14+ (35%)
Chance of Hitting with second attack: 19+ (10%)
Chance of Threatening on first hit : 10% (19+)
Chance of Threatening on second hit: 10% (19+)
Chance of converting on First hit : 35% (14+)
Chance of converting on second hit: 10% (19+)
Chance of a crit on first hit : 3.5%
Chance of a crit on second hit: 1.0%
Total chance of at least one crit in any one round : 4.5%
Average Damage by weapon layout:
Formula = Average Dmg for weapon * % chance to hit
Rapier Avg Dmg : 1d6+2 = 3.5+2 = 5.5
Shortsword avg dmg : 1d6+2 = 3.5+2 = 5.5
Bastardsword avg dmg : 1d10+3 (assuming two handed) 5.5+3 = 8.5
Rapier/Rapier : 5.5*0.25 = 1.375 + 1.375
5.5*0.05 = 0.275 + 0.275
Total : 3.3
Rapier/Shortsword : 5.5 * 0.35 = 1.925 + 1.925
5.5 * 0.10 = 0.550 + 0.550
Total : 4.95
Bastardsword : 8.5*0.35 = 2.975
8.5*0.10 = 0.850
Total : 3.825
In other words, the bastardsword is between the rapier/rapier and rapier/shortsword combos in average damage per round. Add in the fact that you will need to fight 22 rounds (on average) to get at least one crit with the bastardsword (100/4.5) whereas with the rapier/shortsowrd combo you'll get one about every (100/16) 6.25 rounds (on average) and about every 8 rounds (on average) with the rapier/rapier combo, and I think the dual wield keen combo works much better. You can boost the broadsword by keening it too of course, but that only ups your ratio on the crit side, not the average damage per round. Dual wield does more damage on average, but it's havok on your own defenses IMO.
DM_Blake was assuming equal conditions.
A Rapier has a 5% greater chance of threatening over a Short Sword, and a Keen/IC Rapier has a 10% greater chance of threatening over a Keen/IC Short Sword.
I almost questioned the same thing, until I figured out where DM_Blake was going with that.
DM_Blake was assuming equal conditions.
A Rapier has a 5% greater chance of threatening over a Short Sword, and a Keen/IC Rapier has a 10% greater chance of threatening over a Keen/IC Short Sword.
I almost questioned the same thing, until I figured out where DM_Blake was going with that.
AH!
Ok, that makes more sense then.
Sorry DM_Blake
DM_Blake was assuming equal conditions.
A Rapier has a 5% greater chance of threatening over a Short Sword, and a Keen/IC Rapier has a 10% greater chance of threatening over a Keen/IC Short Sword.
I almost questioned the same thing, until I figured out where DM_Blake was going with that.
Thanks, you beat me to the reply.
It's my bad, I should have spelled out what I meant more clearly.
On a seperate note, actually a clarification of something I said earlier, if your GM is allowing WoTC splat books, you can take the Oversized Two-Weapon fighting feat if you have two-weapon fighting already and at least a 13 Str. It lets you treat one-handed weapons in the off-hand as if they were light weapons. This means you could wield the Rapier/Rapier combination in my example above with a -2/-2 instead of a -4/-4. Combine that with the improved crit range of the rapiers, and it's a very nice combination for a TWF rogue.
I do agree that you want to maximize the number of attacks you get with a weapon, but given some of the crit feats in PF-beta, taking a few of those and maximizing your crits & attacks is a very nasty combination, and worth taking rapiers in both hands (especially if your GM allows the Oversized two-weapon feat).
Sorry, I keep thinking of other things. :)
A rogue at 10 could dip one level into fighter for his 10th level and get improved crit as his first level fighter feat.
A really nasty combination would be a keen bastard sword as your main weapon (with exotic weapon (bastardsword) to wield it one handed) and a keen short sword (or rapier even if using the oversized two weapon feat). Very samurai (katana & wakizashi). Get the benefits of the bigger dmg die, the improved critical chance, and the improved crit range of the rapier (or just improved crit of the keen shortsword).
Honestly, I can't see how you can go wrong with any dual weapon rogue, what with sneak attack applying to any attack you get it qualifies for. And by the time you get to 15th level, you won't care what weapons you use, honestly. Most of your damage will come from your sneak attack.
As someone else said. Most of the tweaking is just what do you want at lower or mid levels.
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Might I suggest the Exotic Weapon proficiency Saw-Tooth Sabre from the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide. It is a Light Exotic Weapon that produces 1d8 Damage with a crit range of 19-20. The nice thing here is you will then be able to use one in each hand. They are Weapon Finessable, and as they are Light weaps they keep you at the -2/-2 (with 2-weapon fighting of course). You can use Improved Critical and pop both weapons with one feat, leaving the money free to place other nasty enhancers on them besides keen and the Feats free to make other valuable choices with. You can Weapon Focus as well and help both. Yes it costs you 1 feat for the exotic, and is not that valuable unless you are going to be using feats to improve your weapons. If you plan on weapon focusing and imp criticaling up your weapons you get feat savings. Besides, they are just nasty looking!
On hit-points:
OP: You'll have either 20 hp or 23 hp. 6 for Race, 8 for Class, 4 for con, 1 for favored class, and *4* for Toughness (3 + 1 per HD) OR 1 for Toughness (0 + 1 per HD, as per the blog post today (Wednesday)).
Big post. Much math.
That's a big long post. Lots of math that hurts my head...
A couple things.
1. When I said you would cofirm your criticals less often, that was a reference to hitting an AC that was moderately easy to hit.
For example, let's say that a particular for requires you to roll a 12 to his his AC with your shortswords. You threaten a crit on a 17+ (they're keen, or you have IC). You confirm that crit on a 12+
Switch to rapiers, and you now threaten the crit 10% more often, on a 15. But you need a 14 to hit this AC now, so you confirm your crit 10% less often because you will not confirm on a 12 or 13 like you would have with the short swords.
You are right, if the foe's AC is so high that you can only hit the AC by rolling a crit, then your confirmation roll will be the same as your crit threat range.
However, if your rapiers from your own example that threaten on 15 also confirm on a 15, then that means that if you used shortswords instead, your To-Hit would be a 13+, threaten on a 17+, confirm on a 13+, which is still 10% fewer threatened criticals, and 10% more confirmed criticals.
On the assumption that a 15+ threatens a crit (and we'll make that the minimum successful to-hit to make the math easier), then we have the following :
Crit Threat = 30% chance
Chance of Conversion = 30%
Chance of a Crit on any given attack = 0.30 * 0.30 = 0.09% Not quite 10%
Without Keen or IC
Crit Threat = 15% chance
Chance of Conversion = 30% (A 15 still confirms, even if it doesn't threaten)
Chance of Crit on any given attack = 0.15 * 0.3 = 0.045%
Now let’s convert that to shortswords, leaving the same chance to hit, which was 15, but adjust for the lower penalties (-2/-2 instead of -4/-4) so now your chance to hit is 13+.
Crit Threat = 20% chance
Chance of Conversion = 40%
Chance of a Crit on any given attack = 0.20 * 0.40 = 0.08% Not quite 10%
Without Keen or IC
Crit Threat = 10% chance
Chance of Conversion = 40% (A 15 still confirms, even if it doesn't threaten)
Chance of Crit on any given attack = 0.10 * 0.4 = 0.040%
You see that those final chances of getting a crit are not too far off, rapiers and shortswords will land nearly the same number of crits, with a fairly small advantage to the rapiers.
But, as I also said, it doesn’t stop there. With the shortswords hitting at 13+ and rapiers hitting at 15+ (against this AC), you will land more normal hits with the shortswords, doing more non-critical-hit damage. You will also do more sneak attacks on those hits that are not criticals.
This is because you will hit more often in general.
And it is true against all armor classes.
Which is why shortswords are, in the long run, more effective. Especially for rogues with all the sneak attack damage. The criticals are only part of the damage output (and face it, 1 extra d6 and a few points of STR and Enhancement damage is tiny compared to a high level rogue’s sneak attack for many d6) and, as I’ve shown, the criticals are very similar between rapiers and shortswords – to similar to compensate for missing more often when dual-wielding rapiers.
Make more sense now?
2. I noticed in your math, when calculating criticals, you gave rapiers at 30% chance to threaten and shortswords and bastard swords only a 10%.
This is apples and oranges.
If you're going to use Keen or IC on the rapiers, then please use them (one of them anyway) on the other swords too.
If you take the time to recalculate with all the weapons receiving the benefit of Keen or Improved Critical, I think your final results will not be so widely (and unjustly) skewed in favor of rapiers.
On a seperate note, actually a clarification of something I said earlier, if your GM is allowing WoTC splat books, you can take the Oversized Two-Weapon fighting feat if you have two-weapon fighting already and at least a 13 Str. It lets you treat one-handed weapons in the off-hand as if they were light weapons. This means you could wield the Rapier/Rapier combination in my example above with a -2/-2 instead of a -4/-4. Combine that with the improved crit range of the rapiers, and it's a very nice combination for a TWF rogue.
I do agree that you want to maximize the number of attacks you get with a weapon, but given some of the crit feats in PF-beta, taking a few of those and maximizing your crits & attacks is a very nasty combination, and worth taking rapiers in both hands (especially if your GM allows the Oversized two-weapon feat).
Agreed. That feat may very well be worth it.
Then whip up an exotic weapon feat to use Elven Thinblades and you're solid gold.
Sorry, I keep thinking of other things. :)
A rogue at 10 could dip one level into fighter for his 10th level and get improved crit as his first level fighter feat.
A really nasty combination would be a keen bastard sword as your main weapon (with exotic weapon (bastardsword) to wield it one handed) and a keen short sword (or rapier even if using the oversized two weapon feat). Very samurai (katana & wakizashi). Get the benefits of the bigger dmg die, the improved critical chance, and the improved crit range of the rapier (or just improved crit of the keen shortsword).
Honestly, I can't see how you can go wrong with any dual weapon rogue, what with sneak attack applying to any attack you get it qualifies for. And by the time you get to 15th level, you won't care what weapons you use, honestly. Most of your damage will come from your sneak attack.
As someone else said. Most of the tweaking is just what do you want at lower or mid levels.
The major downside of using two different weapons is that some feats, like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization (if you dip enough fighter levels), Improved Critical, etc., require you to pick just one weapon for the bonus.
If your weapons are identical, then you can apply these feats to both hands. If not, then you have to take each feat twice, or only get half the benefit.
<snip lots of good stuff>
Make more sense now?2. I noticed in your math, when calculating criticals, you gave rapiers at 30% chance to threaten and shortswords and bastard swords only a 10%.
This is apples and oranges.
If you're going to use Keen or IC on the rapiers, then please use them (one of them anyway) on the other swords too.
If you take the time to recalculate with all the weapons receiving the benefit of Keen or Improved Critical, I think your final results will not be so widely (and unjustly) skewed in favor of rapiers.
Gah!
Sorry, my bad on that one. Been sick with the flu for 5 days is my only excuse. I meant to use a keen short sword (blech).Rather than recalculate all that (it took me 2 hours) I'll grant you that short swords can be more effective, if, and only if, you take a bunch of shortsword specific feats (IE: Weapon focus, etc). If you dont', a combination rapier/shortsword is the best, and if you are going to take all those feats (weapon specialization/focus etc) then you're better off with the rapier/rapier and oversized two weapon.
On a seperate note, actually a clarification of something I said earlier, if your GM is allowing WoTC splat books, you can take the Oversized Two-Weapon fighting feat if you have two-weapon fighting already and at least a 13 Str. It lets you treat one-handed weapons in the off-hand as if they were light weapons. This means you could wield the Rapier/Rapier combination in my example above with a -2/-2 instead of a -4/-4. Combine that with the improved crit range of the rapiers, and it's a very nice combination for a TWF rogue.
I do agree that you want to maximize the number of attacks you get with a weapon, but given some of the crit feats in PF-beta, taking a few of those and maximizing your crits & attacks is a very nasty combination, and worth taking rapiers in both hands (especially if your GM allows the Oversized two-weapon feat).
Agreed. That feat may very well be worth it.
Then whip up an exotic weapon feat to use Elven Thinblades and you're solid gold.
Or just play an elf and take martial weapon proficiency, or take a level of fighter (especially if you're going to take some combat feats).
<snip lots of good stuff>
Make more sense now?2. I noticed in your math, when calculating criticals, you gave rapiers at 30% chance to threaten and shortswords and bastard swords only a 10%.
This is apples and oranges.
If you're going to use Keen or IC on the rapiers, then please use them (one of them anyway) on the other swords too.
If you take the time to recalculate with all the weapons receiving the benefit of Keen or Improved Critical, I think your final results will not be so widely (and unjustly) skewed in favor of rapiers.
Gah!
Sorry, my bad on that one. Been sick with the flu for 5 days is my only excuse. I meant to use a keen short sword (blech).Rather than recalculate all that (it took me 2 hours) I'll grant you that short swords can be more effective, if, and only if, you take a bunch of shortsword specific feats (IE: Weapon focus, etc). If you dont', a combination rapier/shortsword is the best, and if you are going to take all those feats (weapon specialization/focus etc) then you're better off with the rapier/rapier and oversized two weapon.
Now we agree!
That's all I've been trying to say all along.
:)
Get well soon!
man i gotta say what a comunity we have here...you guys are really responceive and may i add very friendly! (kinda like family around here..kinda nice :D )
ok so someone want to do a writeup of what they have in mind for me then?
we all agree that 2 weapon is a good idea and i see what the point is with the rapier/shortsword combo vs the other combo's that have been suggested. i think thats the way i will go with things till i can get the sawtooth saber proficentcy.
thanks for the help and please keep me posted with any other ideas you might have!
so progression for this guy? only need to go to 10th lvl or so cause it is doubtful that we weill go past that in the test run.
should i take my first lvl as a fighter? and then if i do, what do i take as my prefered class?
i still kinda wanna do the 2 rapier thing, is there any way i could make that work? (ok REASONABLY?)
If you want to do dual rapier, then here's how I'd do it (Not assuming Human, although I know you said you were going human, but I try not to put racial requirements into a build. If you do go human, you get an extra feat at 1st and the skill points, so go for what you want. If you have a decent STR, you might consider Double Slice. I don't bother with this personally as usually, as a rogue, STR is one of my lowest priorities.):
Level 1 : Fighter 1 Bonus Feat (Two Weapon Fighting) + Weapon Finesse
Level 2 : Rogue 1(Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding)
Level 3 : Rogue 2(Evasion, Weapon Training Rapier (Weapon Focus Rapier))
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (From Complete Adventurer)
Level 4 : Rogue 3(Sneak attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1)
Level 5 : Rogue 4(Rogue Talent (Surprise Attacks)), Uncanny Dodge
Level 6 : Rogue 5(Sneak Attack +3d6) + Deadly Defense (Complete Adv)
At this point, there are several ways to go. Improved and greater two weapon fighting at higher levels. Honestly, I don't like doing builds beyond 5-6 levels if you're starting at 1st. And, equally honestly, I usually run the game, not play and build. :) But, this is a good build if you want to go with dual rapier, IMHO.
I'm sure there are plenty of people on here who could do much better.
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drop the 2 rapier thing... you're hurting yourself lad... that's not healthy, obsessing over thin long frail fencing foils like that! :)
Just take two short swords. You'll thank us all for it. You can even say your shortswords look like two rapiers... 'cause they deal the same damage amount (1d6) and same damage type (piercing)
Aestetically, you can say they look almost the same, if you want. And you'll be at -2/-2, instead of -4/-4. Then take weapon focus shortsword, and you'll be -1/-1. Assuming you start with a Dex of 16, also take Weapon Finesse. You'll be at a total of +2/+2. You'll be a fighting machine. You'll be the envy of all other melee types in your group! LOL!
(so summary: 1st level fighter with weapon focus short sword, two weapon fighting, and weapon finesse... if rogue, then take two-weapon fighting as your first rogue talent...)
I would agree with the other posters that investing signifigantly into Crits is not the way to go for a low-STR/high-DEX Rogue, since it doesn't synergize at all with your Sneak Attack damage... Feel free to give up base weapon damage for higher Crit-range when choosing weapons, but taking attack penalties runs counter to using your Sneak Attack to maximum advantage.
From the perspective of maximizing Weapon Focus efficiency, getting WF: Daggers isn't a bad choice since it also applies to using them as thrown weapons, which isn't bad combined with the Returning property (once you can afford an extra +1 Enhancement cost), and their average damage is only 1 less than Short Swords.
Judging from the Valeros preview, Vital Strike/IVS now apply to Standard Attacks, and are available earlier/ at lower BAB, so if you forsee using Standard Attacks often (which you will if you use Spring Attack), you probably want to take those once you reach their requirements. As an alternative to investing in the Spring Attack chain, you might look at taking Combat Expertise (bumping your AC so staying in Melee isn't quite so dangerous) and Improved & Greater Feint, eventually allowing you to Sneak Attack without relying on Flanking while only spending a Swift Action (allowing you to Full Attack). Magical items with powers like Blur, Blink, and Mirror Image are another way besides increasing AC to increase your safety margin in Melee (unless your opponents have True Seeing).
You probably should consider taking Rogue Finesse as your first Rogue Talent - spending a Feat for what you can get 'free' doesn't seem so efficient, and you can take this at 2nd level if you want. Also, I think it's probably 95% certain that Weapon Finesse & Agile Maneuvers will be merged into one Feat in the final product. Combat Expertise is also available thru a Rogue Talent, I believe (besides the Combat Rogue Talent that allows any Combat Feat)
Though it slows your Sneak Attack progression by 1 level, if you're as interested in the Magic Talents as you seem (wanting to take them multiple times for more spells), I honestly think taking a level of Sorceror or Wizard would be worth-while. With only a 12 CHA, the Sorceror has 2 known 1st lvl spells, 4x/day off the bat, plus 3 (?) cantrips (unlimited), and a Bloodline power on top of that (not to mention +2 to Will Saves). Having a real "Caster" Spell List (which the Magic Talents don't give you) also helps a little with UMD DC's.
OK,
Yes, you can take short sword, I've hashed that out with DM Blake before. Honestly, it comes down also to personal preference. That was all hashed out above. The question wasn't 'What is the way to min/max my way to max damage' it was 'If I want to use two rapiers, what's the best build to go melee twin weapon rapier'.
As a GM, I personally deplore the concept of builds (which is why I don't like doing more than 5-6 levels of design). To me it steals a lot of the fluff if all you do is crunch numbers.
However, for the two posters above, who are crunching instead of fluffing, if you look at the build and compare to two short-swords... it's identical, and keeps the rapiers and the improved crit range. Additionally, for the number crunchers, dipping fighter the first level gives a good hp boost (since first level is maxed HP). The over-sized weapon feat at level 3 means you treat the rapiers exactly like short swords.
Honestly, if he wants to use rapiers, and it only costs him one feat to do it, why is everyone giving him so much grief over it? He likes rapiers, it takes one extra feat to do with rapiers what you are suggesting with short swords. Sheesh.