GMs,
I'm curious how NPC casters have dealt with Silence in your campaigns. I have a PC caster has recently acquired it and has begun using it heavily. This is one of the first times I have had a PC use Silence so much, and I have begun to realize what a potent spell it is.
With that in mind, I'm wondering if basically every semi-intelligent caster would always have Silence memorized so as to counterspell it if it is cast on them? I'm not looking to "beat" my PC, just trying to think as casters would in a world where Silence is a serious threat.
Thanks.
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Start giving enemy casters the Silent Spell feat, that should help a bit.
but that just mean:
a) he nerfs his player spell (always a frustrating thing, unless the PC enemeis realice his tactics)
b) this means they need to cast ALL their spells as one level higher... nerfing themselves, but actually able to cast
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but that just mean:
a) he nerfs his player spell (always a frustrating thing, unless the PC enemeis realice his tactics)
Well, I assume that his players are using a Silence spell by casting it on an object and then throwing at the enemy casters. This negates any save that they would normally get and I don't see it as very fair (even though it is a legitimate use of the spell).
Even if they're not using the above method, I fail to see why enemy casters wouldn't adapt to the silence spell being used as an effective anti-magic technique. Player characters aren't the only ones that are capable of changing tactics or adapting to threats.
b) this means they need to cast ALL their spells as one level higher... nerfing themselves, but actually able to cast
I don't know about that; if they're capable of casting a silent dispel magic, that would probably be enough. If worse comes to worse he can always give a particularly powerful caster a lesser rod of silent spell or something along those lines.
Aye, typically its casted on an object near the caster.
That's an interesting option to consider. Though I don't want it to seem like all NPC casters are considering this one PCs favored strategy.
I'm wondering if casters having Silence memorized pretty much all of the time, would seem like GM omniscience.
Thanks!
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point taken
if their enemeis or a witness survives his enemies in the future can prepare for this tactic... its quite common in the use of darkness... I need to remember if the caster can talk in the same way
but if its in a rock... as in your example... wouln't be it easier and cheaper to throw it back and watch now the PCs suffer due to their friend's action? also in that case I would take it like a "grenade" so I will ask a similar roll like a potion or vial, if its off it could actually be far from the nemies, just moving and having the silence area between the pcs and them attack from afar...
also silent is quite interesting for other reasons... except for well trained operatives most people communicate via voice... so this will make enemies less effective, any creature using the hearing sense to guide itself would fall... I would impose penalties in spellcraft due to the fact they can't listen to the spell, or i can keep my enemies unawares of a coming danger (reinforces, lots of stones or wood pillars falling over them, etc)
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Aye, typically its casted on an object near the caster.
That's an interesting option to consider. Though I don't want it to seem like all NPC casters are considering this one PCs favored strategy.
I'm wondering if casters having Silence memorized pretty much all of the time, would seem like GM omniscience.
maybe its not, but certainly it will felt like it...
why not confront them with creatures to which "silence" has no effect?
mmm silence can be casted at a distance? I though it should be casted to something the caster has at hand, unless he has a feat for casting it at range...
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Aye, typically its casted on an object near the caster.
That's what I figured, my players do this all the time. It's a potent tactic to be sure. :D
That's an interesting option to consider. Though I don't want it to seem like all NPC casters are considering this one PCs favored strategy.
I'm wondering if casters having Silence memorized pretty much all of the time, would seem like GM omniscience.
Thanks!
This is where it gets dicey; you obviously don't want your players to feel that they're being punished for using a valid tactic, but you don't want the PCs to just roll over encounters you originally intended to be challenging.
There are of course countermeasures (the Silent Spell feat, counterspelling, and similar things) but making the PCs feel that they're not being punished for being effective is always a tough thing to feel out.
Perhaps you should try bringing it up to your players? Be upfront with them about it, let them know what you feel is wrong and perhaps offer a suggestion how to fix it (maybe a save on the Silence spell even if its cast on an object).
Just remember, this game is about everyone having fun, and if you're not having fun or are being frustrated, it's best to bring it up to the group and hash it out so that you can all get back on track and back to having a good time.
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point taken
if their enemeis or a witness survives his enemies in the future can prepare for this tactic...
Exactly. :)
but if its in a rock... as in your example... wouln't be it easier and cheaper to throw it back and watch now the PCs suffer due to their friend's action? also in that case I would take it like a "grenade" so I will ask a similar roll like a potion or vial, if its off it could actually be far from the nemies, just moving and having the silence area between the pcs and them attack from afar...
Understandable, I'd likely do the same thing (have the enemies just whip it back at the party). However, it can be cast on any object that is stationary (such as a pillar); though, in such cases the target may be able to move out of the area of effect.
My only real beef with using the 'object' casting of the spell is that it doesn't allow saves for creatures near the object. I can understand disallowing a save for creatures that enter the area after the spell's been cast, but I don't like how creatures that were already there don't get a save.
also silent is quite interesting for other reasons... except for well trained operatives most people communicate via voice... so this will make enemies less effective, any creature using the hearing sense to guide itself would fall... I would impose penalties in spellcraft due to the fact they can't listen to the spell, or i can keep my enemies unawares of a coming danger (reinforces, lots of stones or wood pillars falling over them, etc)
Grimlocks get into all kinds of trouble, they need to hear to see so it blinds them. I always got a kick out of that. :D
I'm wondering if casters having Silence memorized pretty much all of the time, would seem like GM omniscience.
But if it's a valid tactic, wouldn't it strain belief for intelligent Casters NOT to use this tactic or be aware of it?
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Understandable, I'd likely do the same thing (have the enemies just whip it back at the party). However, it can be cast on any object that is stationary (such as a pillar); though, in such cases the target may be able to move out of the area of effect.
My only real beef with using the 'object' casting of the spell is that it doesn't allow saves for creatures near the object. I can understand disallowing a save for creatures that enter the area after the spell's been cast, but I don't like how creatures that were already there don't get a save.
works the same with darkenss, but i understand your point :D
ok now i am thinking in a trap using some Silence Spells already cast on site... just need the feat to make their duration longer :D
Grimlocks get into all kinds of trouble, they need to hear to see so it blinds them. I always got a kick out of that. :D
still... I hate them under darkness... which is a common tactic!
This brings up the same question as everyone is kicking around on the thread about Earthgliding.
When is it fair or unfair to have enemies prepared for player tactics?
That is a tough question.
The answer varies from situation to situation, but I think in the case of the Silence spell, this one is cut and dry.
The players didn't invent a new spell that nobody has heard of. They didn't invent a new trick with an old spell, something that nobody has seen before.
Nope.
It's just the same old "I cast Silence and now you can't cast spells trick."
That's about the oldest trick in the book.
And it's fair and reasonable to assume that every spellcaster knows about this trick.
I would even bet every freshman wizard at the Academie of Magerie (Hogwarts?) learns about silence spells in their Defense Against the Arts 101 class (I deliberately omitted "Dark").
Sure, those freshmen plebes can't even cast the spell yet, but they've heard of it, and probably been hazed by it, before they finish their freshman year.
No different for clerics in their seminaries.
So yeah, bad guys preparing for Silence is not some miracle of DM Omniscience. I would put it no further than the same level of omniscience that encourages SWAT guys to wear bullet-proof armor before they charge an armed gunman.
Reward them. Let them get away with it sometimes because it is a good tactic.
Punish them. Let the badguys employ it against the PCs sometimes because it is a good tactic.
Nutralize the tactic. Let the badguys neutralize the Silence sometimes because that is a good tactic too. Hopefully your PCs will also be prepared to neutralize it when you use it against them.
Is Silence cast on a rock the D&D version of Hot Potato? :-)
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as a friend said "silence spell in an object ends when you move outside of the area (spellcraft check to see which is the area) and then you cast other thing against them...
silence is not a serious threat... its just an obstacle and a way to lose time...
your NPCs just need to move...
and as someone else said... they can use the tactic too
your NPCs just need to move...
Not always.
My group is found of putting silence on an arrow or bolt.
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The way I tend to deal with recurring overuse of a win tactic is to use it on them in turn, counter it, and to just accept it occasionally. These tactics work great sometimes, they fail sometimes and sometimes they bite you back. The other thing to remember is, eventually they find new toys. Silence comes and goes within groups again and again. The way I deal with Silence specifically is to try not to have to many casters in to small an area. It isn't that big a spell that you can't get away from it, unless you are in a room the same size as the are of the spell and the party holds the door.
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Or you could pick up the object (if small enough) and throw it back at the PCs....
We actually hit this issue in our group, except silence was cast by the bad guys at us. One thing we worked out is that as the spellcasters' Domain, Bloodline and School abilities are not listed as requiring somatic components they still work fine. So the Sorceror's Acid Ray, the Druid's Arc of Lightning and the Cleric's Fire ray still worked, along with the Cleric's Channel Positive Energy. As we are only 3rd level it didn't make a huge difference to us.
I'm wondering if casters having Silence memorized pretty much all of the time, would seem like GM omniscience.
Note: Silence is a Cleric and Bard spell *only*, not Druid/Sorc/Wiz/(Rang/Pal).
your NPCs just need to move...Not always.
My group is found of putting silence on an arrow or bolt.
Ammunition is destroyed when it hits the target - silence would then be gone with the object it was cast on destroyed. Technically. More inventive has been a silenced tanglefoot bag.
Plenty of options:
Move
Throw it back
Silent spell
CHARGE! (j/k)
Supernatural abilities
Disrupt the Silence spell
On that last one - - that means it goes into affect at the beginning of the caster's next turn; can be disrupted anytime before that (force spellcraft checks with magic missiles, etc.); countered; or simply readied for (cast mage hand, get ready to move anything they throw back at them).
Ammunition is destroyed when it hits the target - silence would then be gone with the object it was cast on destroyed.your NPCs just need to move...Not always.
My group is found of putting silence on an arrow or bolt.
Ammunition
Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
Emphasis is mine.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, there isn't any clarification as to what happens to a spell when it's target is "destroyed." Most of the time, it doesn't matter.
Or you could pick up the object (if small enough) and throw it back at the PCs....
We actually hit this issue in our group, except silence was cast by the bad guys at us. One thing we worked out is that as the spellcasters' Domain, Bloodline and School abilities are not listed as requiring somatic components they still work fine. So the Sorceror's Acid Ray, the Druid's Arc of Lightning and the Cleric's Fire ray still worked, along with the Cleric's Channel Positive Energy. As we are only 3rd level it didn't make a huge difference to us.
Which is why you cast Silence on just one caltrop in a bag full of them and chuck the whole thing so it scatters all over the enemy's area. They can't possibly pick them up and hurl them back at you easily, without using Detect Magic to find the magical caltrop - hard to do if they can't cast spells.
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The players in my game employed the tactic of casting Silence on the party's own melee types (preferably mobile and/or speedy ones) and having them charge/bull rush/overrun/tumble their way to the enemy spellcasters. This allowed for no saving throw/SR, kept the enemy spellcasters from "throwing it back" as well as having the Silence able to follow the spellcasters who attempted to get away from the effect.
The silence spell also had the added benefit of protecting the melee type (read low Will saves) from language based attacks (ie Charm).
If that tactic was not available, the next best thing was to cast the spell versus the enemy spellcaster's melee (read low Will saves again) cohorts, forcing the enemy spellcaster to move away from his "bodyguard".
Needless to say these tactics were highly effective against groups with only arcane spell casters in the mix (those without their own divine spellcaster with Silence) and in somewhat open areas (and even some restricted areas).
This was repeated enough (and effective enough) times that it was threatening the fun and balance of our game.
I contemplated some of the strategies already put forth in this thread as counter measures. However, rather than start a Silence-spell-and-it's-counters arms race, I tweaked the spell itself.
My first idea was to allow everyone who came under the influence of the spell a save and/or SR regardless of how the spell was employed (area, object or creature). If they passed they were unaffected for the duration of that casting, period. This fit nicely, I thought, with the idea that Silence is an Illusion spell. Those who saved merely refused to "believe" the spell. (This could even be argued by a "rules lawyer" as a valid interpretation of the spell as written in the Pathfinder Beta. Look at the wording carefully. It is not bullet proof IMO.)
My second idea (and the one we are currently using) was to alter the spell in another way. In a nut shell, I changed the spell type to Evocation and made only one other significant change. That being in relation to the "target creature" use of the spell. I removed the part about the "20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature". Area and object uses remained unchanged. Both had relatively easy counters (move and/or throw back). The creature use was now only a single targeted creature who would get a save and/or SR to resist (unless willing).
The result in our game being Silence is still highly effective at controlling the battlefield via denial of area (area or object). It is still effective for stealth when cast on objects (rolling the Silenced battering ram up to the castle gate). It can still devastate an enemy spellcaster (who fails his save) who hasn't prepared counter measures (Silent Spell feat). It is also still effective for defensive purposes (versus Charm).
So far, we as a group are happy with this new version and thought you might find it helpful in your game.
Cheers
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If you think Silence is scary how about this. Wizard casts Antimagic Field on his raven familiar (via Share Spell) and is able to communicate/direct his familiar via Empathic Link (Su). Useful both offensively and defensively. Summoned creatures would be especially vulnerable.
Thank the gods none of my players will probably read this.
Cheers
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I once had an NPC caster put silence on his rat familar and have it run into a crowded tavern right before he attacked my PCs. The party had no clue where the center of the spell was (because they couldn't spot the hiding rat), and the rat moved from underneath different tablees as my PCs moved keeping them in the silence. My party still killed the caster pretty quickly because the melee fighters just beat the crap out of him.
The answer is really simple, always have tough guys standing around with your casters. If the party catches him with his pants down, just shrug and write off that NPC, it's more fun for the players if their plans actually work.
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Which is why you cast Silence on just one caltrop in a bag full of them and chuck the whole thing so it scatters all over the enemy's area. They can't possibly pick them up and hurl them back at you easily, without using Detect Magic to find the magical caltrop - hard to do if they can't cast spells.Or you could pick up the object (if small enough) and throw it back at the PCs....
Oh...that is fantastic!! *runs off to buy a bag of caltrops, then realises she is playing the sorceror*
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Oh...that is fantastic!! *runs off to buy a bag of caltrops, then realises she is playing the sorceror*Which is why you cast Silence on just one caltrop in a bag full of them and chuck the whole thing so it scatters all over the enemy's area. They can't possibly pick them up and hurl them back at you easily, without using Detect Magic to find the magical caltrop - hard to do if they can't cast spells.Or you could pick up the object (if small enough) and throw it back at the PCs....
Forgive my ignorance but... to what real advantage is this tactic?
If you throw multiple caltrops (one silenced) to engulf an area, why not just cast the spell over said area? If you want to throw caltrops as well...
Oh...that is fantastic!! *runs off to buy a bag of caltrops, then realises she is playing the sorceror*Which is why you cast Silence on just one caltrop in a bag full of them and chuck the whole thing so it scatters all over the enemy's area. They can't possibly pick them up and hurl them back at you easily, without using Detect Magic to find the magical caltrop - hard to do if they can't cast spells.Or you could pick up the object (if small enough) and throw it back at the PCs....
Forgive my ignorance but... to what real advantage is this tactic?
If you throw multiple caltrops (one silenced) to engulf an area, why not just cast the spell over said area? If you want to throw caltrops as well...
Read the spell.
If you cast it on an area, creatures within the area get a save. Worse, it's a WILL save which casters are notroriously good at making. No point silincing Ned the Nasty Necromancer's six ghouls but Ned makes his save and starts blasting away at you.
But there is no save if you cast it on an object, say, a potato, then hurl the object over by Ned's feet. Instant Silence, no save.
But Ned can reach down and pick up the potato and hurl it back at your group, silencing all of you. All you've done is waste one of Ned's rounds.
So I proposed enchanting one of several dozen caltrops and chuck them all at Ned. He will have no way of knowing which caltrop to throw back at you unless he had already pre-cast a Detect Magic that was still in effect. And it would take him a long time or a huge amount of luck to get the right one by just randomly grabbing them and throwing them at you.
Besides, the fringe benefit kicks in when Ned decides to move 20' to get out of the area of Silence, but has to move through the field of caltrops.
No, no, don't use marbles - you think you'll get Ned to pull the classic Three Stooges routine of constantly falling, worse than a Grease spell, but really, how can you throw them and get them to land at Ned's feet without having enough momentup to keep rolling right past him and out of range...
But Ned can reach down and pick up the potato and hurl it back at your group, silencing all of you. All you've done is waste one of Ned's rounds.So I proposed enchanting one of several dozen caltrops and chuck them all at Ned. He will have no way of knowing which caltrop to throw back at you unless he had already pre-cast a Detect Magic that was still in effect. And it would take him a long time or a huge amount of luck to get the right one by just randomly grabbing them and throwing them at you.
Besides, the fringe benefit kicks in when Ned decides to move 20' to get out of the area of Silence, but has to move through the field of caltrops.
No, no, don't use marbles - you think you'll get Ned to pull the classic Three Stooges routine of constantly falling, worse than a...
Uhm,
May I point out that it is more than likely Ned will have a detect magic up, and will simply bend over, pick up the glowy caltrop, throw it back at you, and then laugh and fire off a fireball? Or more simply, point to the glowy one, have the ranger or rogue throw it back, and then hold his action until he can speak and blast you with lightning?
Well nothing says that the potato glows, detect magic is concentration based and requires 3 rounds to pinpoint anything (otherwise it's "yup there is a magic aura somewhere in a sixty foot cone in that direction"). Finally you (preferably) give Ned something else to think about while he is looking at the caltrops.
My answer:
Reserve Magic Feats -- sure I can't cast spells -- but I can still use spell like abilities and supernatural abilities... suck fire loser! (inspecific general statement)
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If you think Silence is scary how about this. Wizard casts Antimagic Field on his raven familiar (via Share Spell) and is able to communicate/direct his familiar via Empathic Link (Su). Useful both offensively and defensively. Summoned creatures would be especially vulnerable.
Thank the gods none of my players will probably read this.
Cheers
Just a clarification on this one. Unless it's changed in the new rules, the antimagic field spell prevents spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities from functioning within its confines. Doesn't that mean the empathic link between the wizard and his familiar wouldn't work while the antimagic field is in place?
your NPCs just need to move...Not always.
My group is found of putting silence on an arrow or bolt.
That wouldn't help much. According to the rules, an arrow/bolt that hits the target is destroyed, and I'd rule any spell affecting object ending with the objects destruction.
Well nothing says that the potato glows, detect magic is concentration based and requires 3 rounds to pinpoint anything (otherwise it's "yup there is a magic aura somewhere in a sixty foot cone in that direction"). Finally you (preferably) give Ned something else to think about while he is looking at the caltrops.
My answer:
Reserve Magic Feats -- sure I can't cast spells -- but I can still use spell like abilities and supernatural abilities... suck fire loser! (inspecific general statement)
Depends on how close you are to the person throwing it. A stone (unless used from a sling) only has a short range increment. And if you have detect magic already up, here's the sequence of events if the enemy spellcaster is in 60 feet and looking (should be, if he's in 60 he should hear bob) :
Round 1 : Bob starts casting Silence on the stone (Standard action). Bob can't throw it, he's taken a standard action, only allowed a move action, not an attack action (throw stone at target, feet of enemy spellcaster).
Round 1 : Ned looks towards Bob, detects the new immination of a spell (1st round of detect magic for silence spell). Ned should, at this point, blast Bob with Magic Missile.
Round 2 : Assuming Bob didn't lose the spell forom the magic missiles, he throws the stone at Ned. If Ned wins initative, he missiles Bob again, if not, he uses a sorcerer bloodline ability which is supernatural and doesn't require verbal components to hit Bob. Second round of detect magic on silence stone (or caltrop).
Round 3 : Bob can fire magic missile now, if he's got the hp's for it. Assuming Ned doesn't beat him on initative. If Ned does, he throws the caltrop back and Bob can't cast anything until he throws it back. Thus we get a game of hot potatoe.
If Bob can see Ned ahead of time, and cast silence ahead of time on the stone, he's got a very limited time to get up and get the stone to Ned. Honestly, it's just not that great a tactic. I couldn't find any improvised weapon stats, but a shuriken is an aerodynamic weapon, and it only has a range increment of 10 feet. So, theoretically, if you want to put it at Ned's area, you need to hit an AC 5 at 10 feet. Adjust the AC up for each 10 feet you go back up to 40 feet, well within Ned's Detect magic field. And the entire time Bob is running up to Ned, he can't cast a blessed thing. Bad idea.
You could use a sling, but, ammunition is destroyed when it hits it's target (rocks cracked, etc), so the sling bullet is damaged and the spell gone.
No matter how you look at it, this is a close up tactic, and it's time consuming and dangerous to pull. Very rarely are you going to be in the perfect situation for this to work.
As for ammunition being detroyed when it hits a target, you have to swallow that theory with a little bit of realism for seasoning.
How many times in movies have you seen a guy get struck with an arrow?
Now ask yourself, was the arrow intact after impact, or destroyed?
Historically speaking, the same applies. Arrows don't magically self-destruct on impact.
In fact, in the vast majority of cases, if you walk up to your target and yank out your arrow (properly), you can fire it again.
But, here's the problem:
1. Dead guys fall, often on the arrow, and likely it is broken in this fall.
2. If the arrowhead impacts solid bone, like a skull, rib, shoulderblade, pelvis, spine, etc., the impact will often splinter the shaft right behind the arrowhead, and firing this arrow again will simply break it, right out of your bow, or on impact, and the splintered shaft will make it wobble in flight. It is effectively useless, though still 98% intact.
3. Yanking the medieval arrow out often left the arrowhead inside the body. It was basicaly inserted into a split in the shaft and tied with string. It was only sharp in the forward direction, so pulling it out goes against the thick back edge of the arrowhead, that blood-soaked string won't hold it in that split against any force. Dig it out or push it out.
4. Pushing the arrow out means the feathers go through the bloody wound. Blood is bad for bird feathers, and so is dragging them through a nearrow tunnel. If all three feathers even make it out (I have left feathers in hay bales, and once in my own finger, as the arrow passed through), the fine spines in the feather may be bent or broken, giving the arrow a wobble in flight.
5. If the arrow doesn't slay the target, they almost invariably break the shaft. Nobody wants 18 inches of arrowshaft sticking out of their body while they try to survive a life-or-death battle that still rages around them. Breaking that shaft hurts, but leaving it alone so it is constantly in the way also hurts, and could be fatal too.
6. Sometimes just firing the arrow out of the bow can damage the fletchings a little. Not much, not usually. But enough that any marskman would re-fletch before firing that arrow again.
7. Sometimes firing an arrow splits the nock (the part where the arrow goes on the bowstring). That's just thin wood back there, and a thin string propelling it from zero to superfast in the blink of an eye. I have seen arrows I didn't even know were bad split in half as the leave the bow, the two halves flying in two sideways directions.
So if you hit a target, and the arrow doesn't strike bone or pass through hard armor, and your target is incapacitated so he cannot break the shaft, and he doesn't fall and break your arrow, and you dig the arrow out of his flesh (carve it out with a knife), and if the process of firing it didn't damage the fletching or the nock - then you can retrieve a good arrow.
But all that coming together is rare, so the simple assumption is that you won't be able to reuse the arrow.
With Craft (Fletching) you should be able to reuse the arrowhead and probably the fletching and remake a new arrow after whittling a new shaft.
And having said all that, none of that "destroys" the arrow. It still effectively hits the target and remains almust fully intact in the target - if not, nobody would have used arrows throughout history as slings would be cheaper and more effective than bows with worthless ammunition that self-destructs and fails to harm the target.
So the arrow that hits solidly impacts and remains intact enough to injure, impede, and/or slay the target.
That should be sufficiently intact to maintain a spell on the arrow after succesfully damaging its target.
If not, if little things like a splintered shaft or bent fletchings means the magic is dispelled, then little things like small nicks and notches and general wear and tear on your magical longsword would neutralize that magic, too.
If not, if little things like a splintered shaft or bent fletchings means the magic is dispelled, then little things like small nicks and notches and general wear and tear on your magical longsword would neutralize that magic, too.
That might be a different story. I have to stress "might" because that comes down to DM decision.
Permanently enchanted items might react differently to wear/tear/breakage than the target of a spell.
We all know that if the longsword is broken, any enchantment is lost. But what happens if the stick that a light spell is cast on is broken into two pieces? Does the spell end? Does the spell remain with only one piece? Does it "transfer" to both? These are things that aren't as certain.
Depends on how close you are to the person throwing it. A stone (unless used from a sling) only has a short range increment. And if you have detect magic already up,Well nothing says that the potato glows, detect magic is concentration based and requires 3 rounds to pinpoint anything (otherwise it's "yup there is a magic aura somewhere in a sixty foot cone in that direction"). Finally you (preferably) give Ned something else to think about while he is looking at the caltrops.
My answer:
Reserve Magic Feats -- sure I can't cast spells -- but I can still use spell like abilities and supernatural abilities... suck fire loser! (inspecific general statement)
A big assumption there.
It's a cantrip, most mages prepare it and can cast it at will, and if Ned knew a fight was coming he might have pre-cast it.
However...
The duration is concentration. That requires a standard action each round. So if Ned wants to keep it up, he cannot attack or cast spells during the upocoming fight.
So, regardless of whether he started with it, he drops it as soon as he takes his first action in the combat.
here's the sequence of events if the enemy spellcaster is in 60 feet and looking (should be, if he's in 60 he should hear bob) :
Round 1 : Bob starts casting Silence on the stone (Standard action). Bob can't throw it, he's taken a standard action, only allowed a move action, not an attack action (throw stone at target, feet of enemy spellcaster).
Or he casts Silence and holds the item in his outstretched open hand until his buddy the ranger uses a move action to grab the item and a standard action to throw it.
No way this party wants to spend the first round of combat with all of them being silenced - a two-man tag team casts the spell and throws the stone immediately.
Round 1 : Ned looks towards Bob, detects the new immination of a spell (1st round of detect magic for silence spell). Ned should, at this point, blast Bob with Magic Missile.
Only if he drops his Detect Magic.
And only if Bob was clueless enough to enter a mage vs. mage fight with no Shield spell in place.
Round 2 : Assuming Bob didn't lose the spell forom the magic missiles, he throws the stone at Ned.
Lose what spell? Bob's Shield absorbed the magic missiles.
If Ned wins initative, he missiles Bob again, if not, he uses a sorcerer bloodline ability which is supernatural and doesn't require verbal components to hit Bob. Second round of detect magic on silence stone (or caltrop).
Are you rolling initiative every round? Houserule?
Either way, Detect Magic is long gone by now.
Round 3 : Bob can fire magic missile now, if he's got the hp's for it. Assuming Ned doesn't beat him on initative. If Ned does, he throws the caltrop back and Bob can't cast anything until he throws it back. Thus we get a game of hot potatoe.
Sure he has the HP. He absorbed the magic missiles for no damage, and that one little bloodline ability surely didn't kill him - heck, maybe it missed.
How does Ned throw the caltrop back? There are dozens of them scattered around him, and he has no clue which one to throw back.
No hot potato.
If Bob can see Ned ahead of time, and cast silence ahead of time on the stone, he's got a very limited time to get up and get the stone to Ned.
Duration 1 minute per level.
If Bob is a wizard at the lowest level he can learn this spell, he gets 30 rounds. If he casts it, say half a minute before the barbarian kicks down the door, he gets 25 rounds of silent combat.
If the fight against Ned lasts 25 rounds, the party is going to TPK anyway.
Honestly, it's just not that great a tactic. I couldn't find any improvised weapon stats, but a shuriken is an aerodynamic weapon, and it only has a range increment of 10 feet. So, theoretically, if you want to put it at Ned's area, you need to hit an AC 5 at 10 feet. Adjust the AC up for each 10 feet you go back up to 40 feet, well within Ned's Detect magic field. And the entire time Bob is running up to Ned, he can't cast a blessed thing. Bad idea.
Ideally, Bob precasts the Silence and gives it to soemone in the group with good BAB and DEX. Ranger, rogue, fighter maybe.
If he can't precast, then he precasts shield and spends round 1 casting Silence and leaves the caltrop in his open outstretched hand (technically it's a bag of caltrops and Bob is enchanting the one on top) so whoever among his allies has the highest initiative can grab it (move action) and throw it at the start of the round (well, he delays to Bob's round so the spell is complete, and throws it right then).
No matter how you look at it, this is a close up tactic,
Of course. Throwing items over any long distance is bound to fail.
and it's time consuming and dangerous to pull.
Fighting enemy spellcasters is time consuming and dangerous to pull, especially if you allow them to cast their spells round after round.
Very rarely are you going to be in the perfect situation for this to work.
Maybe, but it's more common if you plan ahead and use it like a tactic, rather than just hoping to find the right time and place for it to work.
Follow this up with Grease and/or Entangle, or even tanglefoot bags (Ned probably is not good with REF saves), and now Ned has a hard time leaving the silenced area. He becomes a crummy sniper, using his crossbow or his bloodline talent and his bad BAB - far far less threatening than he would be as a spellcaster.
If not, if little things like a splintered shaft or bent fletchings means the magic is dispelled, then little things like small nicks and notches and general wear and tear on your magical longsword would neutralize that magic, too.That might be a different story. I have to stress "might" because that comes down to DM decision.
Permanently enchanted items might react differently to wear/tear/breakage than the target of a spell.
We all know that if the longsword is broken, any enchantment is lost. But what happens if the stick that a light spell is cast on is broken into two pieces? Does the spell end? Does the spell remain with only one piece? Does it "transfer" to both? These are things that aren't as certain.
Broken longsword usually means two pieces. Not nicks, chips, slivers, or hairline fractures that are easily mended at a forge.
Magical weapons are likely resistant to such wear and tear, but banging them against magical armor, parrying them with magical weapons, and blunting them against Tarrasque hide might very well produce this kind of wear and tear.
Usually nothing that a few minutes with a whetstone can't fix.
I would expect that as normal usage would dictate, and I would expect the sword's owner to spend a few minutes after any fight smoothing out his blade with a whetstone.
I would think an arrow shaft broken in half loses all enchantment.
But slivered shaft, or even split end around the arrowhead or nock, or damaged fletching (maybe even missing fletching) - all of this is minor wear and tear that makes the arrow unuseable for a second shot, but is otherwise almost entirely intact, much like a nicked and notched swordblade.
But yeah, you're right, DMs can rule this any way they like.
I just point to countless movies, like 300, or any Robin Hood movie, or any Cowboy and Indian movie. Look at Legolas shooting orcs, or orcs shooting Boromir - those arrows are intact after they hit. Certainly intact enough to sustain a spell had there been one, but probably not intact enough to fire them again.
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Read the spell.
I have sir, and I don't believe your ruling/interpretation is as iron clad as you would have me believe. The spell description clearly states that objects and points in space do not receive saves/SR. You are splitting some mighty fine hairs to say that the effect introduced to an occupied area directly (either by targeting a point in space or an object already present) allows a save/SR while the effect being introduced by a thrown object does not. For consistency, the save should be allowed (if allowed at all, see below) whenever a creature first encounters the silence, regardless of the target method. EDIT: If a zone of silence is already in place (and somewhat hard to perceive I might add) and a creature unwittingly enters, do they get a save? According to your interpretation, no. Why not? If the zone moves to the creature or the creature moves to the zone they don't get a save? If the zone "moves" (read is created) during initial casting, to include creatures already present in an area, they get a save? That doesn't seem right.
Additionally, the wording of the spell only references the save/SR in regards to attempting to center the emanation on a specific target creature.
"The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any."
Nowhere in the spell description does it specifically state that all creatures within an affected area receive saves/SR.
IMO, the RAW are open to the counter interpretation that whenever the spell is cast upon an area or object, "complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area." Meaning that no saves are allowed within this zone. Period.
The bolded part is the most interesting/telling portion. If two creatures are standing at opposite ends of a 60 foot corridor (10' x 10') and the spell is cast directly between them, neither creature is directly affected by the spell and receive no save/SR. Right? According the RAW however, these two creatures cannot communicate through the zone of silence. How can that be? They didn't fail a save. Why should they be affected? The answer is that the save/SR has no relevance to proximity to, or direct interactivity with, the silenced area. There is no save/SR at all. The save/SR is only triggered when a creature is targeted specifically to be the emanation point of the spell.
This is why I made the changes that I did above. The spell behaves unlike an illusion and more like an evocation. It really does suppress sound in an area. The only questions being where the area originates and can the area move.
Besides, the fringe benefit kicks in when Ned decides to move 20' to get out of the area of Silence, but has to move through the field of caltrops.
A bag of caltrops is meant to be scattered on the ground, not used as a splash weapon, hence no bit about ranged touch attack in the description. (unlike other thrown area effect weapons like tanglefoot bags, holy water etc.) Could they be thrown? Of course. Range increments of 10'. Which means max range of 50'. Requiring of course a ranged touch attack, misses resulting in random placement. I would also think that this delivery method would reduce the effectiveness of the caltrops (spread to thin or clumped together). Besides a single 2 pound bag only covers a 5' square which hardly counts as a "field".
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Just a clarification on this one. Unless it's changed in the new rules, the antimagic field spell prevents spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities from functioning within its confines. Doesn't that mean the empathic link between the wizard and his familiar wouldn't work while the antimagic field is in place?
You are correct. I realized my mistake too late to edit. I thought someone would point it out. :)
However, the tactic is still valid. The raven familiar can still speak with the wizard without using the link to receive direction. The range will just be much shorter. :)
Cheers
If two creatures are standing at opposite ends of a 60 foot corridor (10' x 10') and the spell is cast directly between them, neither creature is directly affected by the spell and receive no save/SR. Right? According the RAW however, these two creatures cannot communicate through the zone of silence.
This is why I made the changes that I did above. The spell behaves unlike an illusion and more like an evocation. It really does suppress sound in an area. The only questions being where the area originates and can the area move.
Actually in that example it's more like an illusion. Since it doesn't take into account what they walls are made of. Paper walls (ala ancient Japanese building) would not prevent the person from hearing you simply because there is a block better you that stops sound, the sound would be muffled but very audable through the walls. Now if it does take into account wall material then I'm with you, transmutation or evocation in that air is refusing to carry sound through an area because of the magic involved.
A bag of caltrops is meant to be scattered on the ground, not used as a splash weapon, hence no bit about ranged touch attack in the description. (unlike other thrown area effect weapons like tanglefoot bags, holy water etc.) Could they be thrown? Of course. Range increments of 10'. Which means max range of 50'. Requiring of course a ranged touch attack, misses resulting in random placement. I would also think that this delivery method would reduce the effectiveness of the caltrops (spread to thin or clumped together). Besides a single 2 pound bag only covers a 5' square which hardly counts as a "field".
I'm with you on this. You to me would get the same effect nearly from putting it on a dagger and aiming that at the square the person is in, the idea that the bag would open right, not scatter too much to be worthless, and would actually make travel in his square tough seems to much of a strain to be really likely. Throw a bag of jacks and watch how spread out they become, yeah if you don't pay attention you might step on one, likely the "field" would be littered with them but not filled enough to make travel through it tough at all.
Silence is a tough deal and can be very powerful. Trying to be fair to the players is important. But remember if you allow them to do something powerful with this spell you are also allowing your NPCs and villians to do it, being fair means not allowing your PCs to get away with something that will burn them hard when the shoes are reversed.
Aye, typically its casted on an object near the caster.That's what I figured, my players do this all the time. It's a potent tactic to be sure. :D
That's an interesting option to consider. Though I don't want it to seem like all NPC casters are considering this one PCs favored strategy.
I'm wondering if casters having Silence memorized pretty much all of the time, would seem like GM omniscience.
Thanks!
This is where it gets dicey; you obviously don't want your players to feel that they're being punished for using a valid tactic, but you don't want the PCs to just roll over encounters you originally intended to be challenging.
There are of course countermeasures (the Silent Spell feat, counterspelling, and similar things) but making the PCs feel that they're not being punished for being effective is always a tough thing to feel out.
Perhaps you should try bringing it up to your players? Be upfront with them about it, let them know what you feel is wrong and perhaps offer a suggestion how to fix it (maybe a save on the Silence spell even if its cast on an object).
Just remember, this game is about everyone having fun, and if you're not having fun or are being frustrated, it's best to bring it up to the group and hash it out so that you can all get back on track and back to having a good time.
Great discussion, thank you!
Just to be clear I do not think there is anything wrong with this tactic. I'm just pondering on the way NPC casters would consider the spell and its uses both against them, and how they would use it themselves.
Best.
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Thurgon.
My example was intended to preclude the possibility of communicating around the zone of silence. Add a bit about how the corridor is deep underground surrounded by solid rock, for clarification. The idea is that the two creatures cannot communicate down the corridor due to the silence zone in the middle. Yet they receive no save to overcome the effect as per the RAW? I think it is notable that this "Illusion" spell does not contain a bit about "Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with)."
EDIT: If two additional creatures were present in the zone when the spell was cast and one made their save, can that creature now communicate with the two creatures at opposite ends of the corridor? If the creature that failed his save leaves the zone can he talk normally with all three other creatures?
It doesn't seem to me that that would be the case according to the spell description.
Again, my take on it is that the zone of silence is an absolute. No saves. No sound in, out or through. The save only kicks in for a specifically targeted creature.
Cheers
Stuff about hot potatoes and such, including:
here's the sequence of events if the enemy spellcaster is in 60 feet and looking (should be, if he's in 60 he should hear bob) :
Round 1 : Bob starts casting Silence on the stone (Standard action).
No way this party wants to spend the first round of combat with all of them being silenced - a two-man tag team casts the spell and throws the stone immediately.
Also:
"And only if Bob was clueless enough to enter a mage vs. mage fight with no Shield spell in place.
...
If Bob is a wizard at the lowest level he can learn this spell, he gets 30 rounds. If he casts it, say half a minute before the barbarian kicks down the door, he gets 25 rounds of silent combat."
On the first thing - reminder to both: Silence casting time is "1 round", not a standard action. There is no two-man tag team to throw it right away, however neither would they have to suffer under the affects for a round - just throw it at the end.
On the second, if Bob is the lowest level wizard who can cast Silence, he gets 130 rounds of shield, since he'd have to be using Limited Wish to do so. Wizards and Sorcerers CANNOT CAST SILENCE. [ Unless they're mystic theurge types of course :) ]
Separately, I know it doesn't make sense as an Illusion spell, but don't take away clerics' *only* Illusion spell!
A big assumption there.It's a cantrip, most mages prepare it and can cast it at will, and if Ned knew a fight was coming he might have pre-cast it.
However...
The duration is concentration. That requires a standard action each round. So if Ned wants to keep it up, he cannot attack or cast spells during the upocoming fight.
So, regardless of whether he started with it, he drops it as soon as he takes his first action in the combat.
Hmmm, I was under the impression it was just a time duration, not concentration + time. Did that change in PF?
I'm also used to dealing with a warlock who can cast it once per day and benefit all day from the one casting. One of the reasons I dislike warlocks.
here's the sequence of events if the enemy spellcaster is in 60 feet and looking (should be, if he's in 60 he should hear bob) :
Round 1 : Bob starts casting Silence on the stone (Standard action). Bob can't throw it, he's taken a standard action, only allowed a move action, not an attack action (throw stone at target, feet of enemy spellcaster).
Or he casts Silence and holds the item in his outstretched open hand until his buddy the ranger uses a move action to grab the item and a standard action to throw it.
No way this party wants to spend the first round of combat with all of them being silenced - a two-man tag team casts the spell and throws the stone immediately.
Perfectly valid, but then, if we're assuming multiple people on either side, Ned's buddy Fred puts a +1 flaming burst arrow into Bob while he's casting silence, disrupting and damaging Bob's rogue buddy Rob. I intentionally reduced it down to two spellcasters to avoid the inevitable arguments over 'Oh, well I have a Ninja who goes invisible and runs up and drops the stone in Ned's robe' or 'Ned's half-dragon paladin friend fires off his dragon breath and destroys the stone in flight'. Honestly, we could spend years adding in companions and go back and forth on how to stop this. Let's give Ned a warlock friend who has detect magic up 24/7, so Ned doesn't even have to worry about being the one to find the caltrop.
Round 1 : Ned looks towards Bob, detects the new immination of a spell (1st round of detect magic for silence spell). Ned should, at this point, blast Bob with Magic Missile.
Only if he drops his Detect Magic.
And only if Bob was clueless enough to enter a mage vs. mage fight with no Shield spell in place.
Ok,
So, Ned blasts him with a wand of fireball, or a wand of melf's acid arrow, or throws a bottle of greek fire at him as a splash weapon.We're back to the 'Ok, we can argue specifics until we are blue in teh face' from above. We're both experienced enough to cherry pick the rules and such. The general idea is that Bob is taking his first round of combat to cast a silence spell, while Ned can use his to attack Bob instead. That automatically gives Ned the advantage.
And, the radius of the spell is only 20 feet, so Ned can always move and cast with a concentration check (and that's simple to do) to avoid the silence spell in the first place.
Round 2 : Assuming Bob didn't lose the spell forom the magic missiles, he throws the stone at Ned.
Lose what spell? Bob's Shield absorbed the magic missiles.
*sigh*
Ok fine, the melf's acid arrow, or fireball, or whatever, see above.
If Ned wins initative, he missiles Bob again, if not, he uses a sorcerer bloodline ability which is supernatural and doesn't require verbal components to hit Bob. Second round of detect magic on silence stone (or caltrop).
Are you rolling initiative every round? Houserule?
Either way, Detect Magic is long gone by now.
Yep,
We always roll initiative every round. More time consuming, but it keeps the PC's from being hammered by one bad roll, also makes combat more dynamic.And no, as pointed out above, the detect magic could be still up. Especially if we go down the road of really bad ideas and start adding in companions. Even just the two dueling wizards the detect magic could easily be still up. And that's assuming that Ned doesn't have an item that keeps up the detect magic for him (like glasses, for example, not all that expensive).
Round 3 : Bob can fire magic missile now, if he's got the hp's for it. Assuming Ned doesn't beat him on initative. If Ned does, he throws the caltrop back and Bob can't cast anything until he throws it back. Thus we get a game of hot potatoe.
Sure he has the HP. He absorbed the magic missiles for no damage, and that one little bloodline ability surely didn't kill him - heck, maybe it missed.
How does Ned throw the caltrop back? There are dozens of them scattered around him, and he has no clue which one to throw back.
No hot potato.
Simple, he picks up the glowing one while Bob quaffs a potion to heal all the damage from the acid arrows or fireballs that blew up against him from the wand Ned used.
As to the caltrops, they arent' even on the ground around Ned, they got dropped by Bob when he got hit by the fireball in round one (he was too busy stop/drop/rolling to put out the flames on his robe). See, I can do that argument too. :)
Okay you are making a lot of good points mdt, but:
Even just the two dueling wizards the detect magic could easily be still up. And that's assuming that Ned doesn't have an item that keeps up the detect magic for him (like glasses, for example, not all that expensive).
Detect Magic is Concentration - even if you have glasses (which I agree are rather inexpensive), you still have to take a standard action to concentrate on it.
This is in contrast to (the semi-ridiculous) Arcane Sight spell, which does not.
Okay you are making a lot of good points mdt, but:
Even just the two dueling wizards the detect magic could easily be still up. And that's assuming that Ned doesn't have an item that keeps up the detect magic for him (like glasses, for example, not all that expensive).Detect Magic is Concentration - even if you have glasses (which I agree are rather inexpensive), you still have to take a standard action to concentrate on it.
This is in contrast to (the semi-ridiculous) Arcane Sight spell, which does not.
Hmmm,
I don't have my books in front of me just now, I'll have to look at this. If it's true... and not doubting you, just haven't looked at it in awhile... that does make it much harder. In that case, I'd expect wizards to carry some pre-enchanted one-use stones of 'dispel silence' they could drop and activate.
Silence
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text or no (object)
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.
This is the spell discription I found on the 3.5 version. This version would allow you a save if you were to be affected based on these lines in my veiw: The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not.
If an item I am carrying gets a save, I have to assume that I failed mine, then it seems obvious another player standing next to me would also recieve a save. Further it seem also clear that if you target an area in front of my I would still get a save. It makes sense and follows logically to me at least. Otherwise saying me items get a save, my buddy's items get a save but for some reason he does not seems well a bit illogical.
Just my take, take it or leave it as you will.
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text or no (object)
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.[/i]This is the spell discription I found on the 3.5 version. This version would allow you a save if you were to be affected based on these lines in my veiw: The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not.
If an item I am carrying gets a save, I have to assume that I failed mine, then it seems obvious another player standing next to me would also recieve a save. Further it seem also clear that if you target an area in front of my I would still get a save. It makes sense and follows logically to me at least. Otherwise...
See,
My read is this : The spell stops all sound if it succeeds at being cast. If it's cast on an unattended object, there is no saving throw (see the description above), and thus it works. If you are in the radius, tough luck. However, you can move out of the area. If it is targeted on you then you get a will save against it. If you succeed, then the spell FAILS and it doesn't stop any sound at all, not yours, not your friends. Silence has always been to me an all or nothing spell. The section about your objects in your posession is to keep people from squinking the system by saying 'Oh, I'm not casting it on the wizard, I'm casting it on his belt buckle!'. You can do that, but the item get's your saves or spell resistance, just as if you had been the target of the spell.
On the first thing - reminder to both: Silence casting time is "1 round", not a standard action. There is no two-man tag team to throw it right away, however neither would they have to suffer under the affects for a round - just throw it at the end.
Yes, I wrote that poorly. It's a full round spell, which I knew. I had meant that the end of casting (next round) is when Bob's friend throws it, immediately. I even mentioned something, somewhere in all that, about delaying until Bob's turn and taking it from his outstretched hand and throwing it.
On the second, if Bob is the lowest level wizard who can cast Silence, he gets 130 rounds of shield, since he'd have to be using Limited Wish to do so. Wizards and Sorcerers CANNOT CAST SILENCE. [ Unless they're mystic theurge types of course :) ]
Separately, I know it doesn't make sense as an Illusion spell, but don't take away clerics' *only* Illusion spell!
Quite true.
You got me here.
I was assuming it was a mage spell. I always thought it was on both lists so I didn't even check.
Hmmm, not a mage spell.
I wonder why?
Almost seems an oversight to me. Mages would love this spell. It's certainly not "un-arcane" (mages would love Cure Light Wounds too, but there is nothing arcane about it - however Silence doesn't come across to me as a non-arcane spell).
I smell a houserule coming on...
Hmmm, not a mage spell.
I wonder why?
I think it is pretty much a hold over from earlier editions. To help promote teamwork, Clerics were the "defenders," and Mages the "offense."
Yeah, there were some crossovers... But if it couldn't be argued as usable offensively, it was usually exclusively Cleric.
Hmmm, not a mage spell.
I wonder why?
I think it is pretty much a hold over from earlier editions. To help promote teamwork, Clerics were the "defenders," and Mages the "offense."
Yeah, there were some crossovers... But if it couldn't be argued as usable offensively, it was usually exclusively Cleric.
Of course clerics also had fewer spell levels (only 7) and few spells per day too. With 2nd edition bringing in limitations based on the deity's spheres of influence.
Use magic device is a possibility with sorcerers, and rods of metamagic should be enough to handle momentary problems (at later levels).
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See,
My read is this : The spell stops all sound if it succeeds at being cast. If it's cast on an unattended object, there is no saving throw (see the description above), and thus it works. If you are in the radius, tough luck. However, you can move out of the area. If it is targeted on you then you get a will save against it. If you succeed, then the spell FAILS and it doesn't stop any sound at all, not yours, not your friends. Silence has always been to me an all or nothing spell. The section about your objects in your posession is to keep people from squinking the system by saying 'Oh, I'm not casting it on the wizard, I'm casting it on his belt buckle!'. You can do that, but the item get's your saves or spell resistance, just as if you had been the target of the spell.
Exactly.
The lines in the spell description for saves and SR should be read like this:
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
or
Saving Throw: no (object)
The same for SR.
A point in space is considered an object for these purposes.
The spell cannot be stopped from coming into existence via saves or SR unless the spell is targeted at a specific creature or attended object (or sound emitting magic items.)
This is how our group plays the spell.
Even given that, we decided to alter the spell to eliminate the willingly silenced 20' radius fighter running amok. The spell now only effects the targeted creature itself when used in that way.
Cheers