About the non-tremor sense thing: maybe they don't have it so they don't rule the world or get bound by people who'll get them to rule the world for them?
Realy, actual real people can live while being blind and even deaf and blind. They need to take their time to get around, adapt to areas and it's not the most optimal moving condition but it's been done for as long as humans have been around.
It's not sexy or super-cool but it can be the way the elementals sludge along the earth, are they in a hurry?
So I would just make sure the players understand that they can navigate threw the earth as a blind-deaf person navigates threw a new area. No problem to go threw a wall into a new room or even trod along next to a corridor, but if you want to figure out the way to the final room you'll need a lot of time (so a lot of castings of the spell, 15 minutes each time), or figure it out another way.
Also, I would recommand an old classic of the game, adapted to the situation: Random Encounters! They can be any earth-glider bumping in the party, Digging monsters, Incorporeal undeads (those could actualy be sentries) or Ethereal stuff.
Another classic would be spiking some areas with disruptive radiating crystals, those usualy prevent teleportation. I can't find the blog entry that brought one of those back but the Darklands have a few of those.
Lining every wall of an entire dungeon with lead would cost more than building, trapping, furnishing, and populating the dungeon.Much much more efficient than lining the walls with anything that keeps elementals out, is simply placing a bubble of antimagic around most of key areas.What colour is the sky in your world, where a thin layer of lead is prohibitively expensive, but multiple permanent antimagic fields are cost-effective?
;-)
I said it was expensive.
But it pays for itself when you send your own elemental in there to snarf up all the coin and magic items from those dead adventurers.
The lead walls just make them leave and try again.
One is a gold-sink, one is a profit center.
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antimagic
This is the one I'd use, players try to earthglide through the entire dungeon and the antimagic field hits about 20ft into the earth, the PCs earthglide into it and suddenly they hit solid stone, or if you want to be real nasty whatever part enters the antimagic is trapped there and the players have to figure out how to get his hand loose without also getting trapped before the spells duration runs out, ooh that's sweet.
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I don't know...this entire thing sounds like a way for your to salvage YOUR story and YOUR dungeon at the expense of the PLAYER'S fun. They came up with a cool idea that wil allow them to bypass the intricate and Mcguffinish set-up of your dungeon. More power to them! This is really no different then if they decided to teleport/dimension door past the door, or disintegrated the wall next to the door, or cast stone to mud on the door, or....do you see my point. They found a door and left with the option of searching for a bunch of keys or JUST GOING PAST THE DOOR, they took the easier option and it's very poor form to try and screw them over.
antimagicThis is the one I'd use, players try to earthglide through the entire dungeon and the antimagic field hits about 20ft into the earth, the PCs earthglide into it and suddenly they hit solid stone, or if you want to be real nasty whatever part enters the antimagic is trapped there and the players have to figure out how to get his hand loose without also getting trapped before the spells duration runs out, ooh that's sweet.
As I said before, emanations (which antimagic field is) need line of effect. The ground blocks line of effect, therefore, that won't work.
I still believe the elementals should be blind.
They certainly have no line of sight to anything on the other side of the earth that is all around them.
Earth blocks line of sight. Dwarves and Drow cannot use darkvision to see through earth and stone, so neither can elementals.
But if you don't want to go back on that ruling, then possibly the easiest fix is to locate the inner sanctum in another plane, as has been suggested.
Let the PCs succeed in their earthgliding into the dungeon, let them use their x-ray darkvision to pick the perfect spot to emerge, and let the dungeon crawl commence from there.
If they retreat partway through and rest (to get back their earthglides so they can recast them and skip another part) then the denizens will be ready for them the second time and will react quickly, ganging up on them. Tough fight when 8 encounters, meant to be fought individually, all gang up at once.
You can have your incorporeals patrol through the earth, especially if the denizens are wise to the earthglide trick.
Elemental vs. ghost is a fun fight - your PCs won't get any of their non-persistent gear. No magical weapons. No spellcasting (maybe allow touch spells, but earthglide or not, magic missiles (and everything else at range) need line of sight and line of effect, neither of which they have underground, even if you have ruled that the elmentals can see, the magic spells still cannot see or travel over range.
In fact, since the elementals will have no magic weapons in elemental form, they won't be able to even hit the incorporeal critter. It can attack them freely with no fear of retaliation. Drain... Drain... Drain... Drain... Drain...
8 encounters at once is even tougher if you've lost half of your levels before you have to fight them.
No, I'm not saying that you should deny them the reward of their clever idea.
I'm saying let it work once, maybe even twice, but not to the grand prize of the inner sanctum.
Then let the enemies rally and prepare for the next time they try the trick and smack them down.
You can't let one trick work every time, especially if it is one trick that circumvents most of the adventure.
It must fail, and fail extra hard, some of the time, enough to discourage them from trying it as their first solution to every dungeon.
And one final thought.
Sometimes the worst punishment is the one that comes later, with that sickening feeling of "Oh, man, we screwed up royally!" followed by "Oh crud, we're screwed now and there's nothing we can do about it."
What if, theoretically speaking, there is some powerful artifact sitting in room three of this dungeon?
What if they finish this dungeon and move on to the next adventure with this place only half-explored and the artifact is never found?
What if, a month or two from now, a new earth-shaking threat materializes, and your PCs whip out some divinations, consult some oracles, or have a divine vision that says they need to go get this powerful artifact - it is the only way to stop this threat?
What if they find out that the artifact is in this dungeon that they only partially explored?
What if they return, and turn it over stone by stone (ha ha, jokes on them, they had to fully deal with this dungeon after all), but can't find the artifact?
And finally, what if, hypothetically, they finally come to realize, as the earth-shaking threat destroys village after village, city after city, that the bad guy has the artifact - that he came in here and got it for himself - because the PCs left it here for anyone to find?
Now they have to watch helplessly as their world falls to ruin and they can't stop it.
Sure, sure, you should eventually let them find a way to deal with the threat, and eventually save what's left of mankind.
But along the way, make sure to include some all-knowing Gandalf-like NPC who poses the question "I wonder how many lives would have been spared if you had merely acquired this artifact the first time you were there?"
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In truth, as a DM of over 30 years, I have seen players find all kinds of ways to circumvent problems I have posed.
I usually either run an entire adventure path, or I make one as I go, with an outlined plot before the characters are rolled.
If the PCs skip half of every dungeon, then they are skipping half of the XP and half of the treasure those dungeons contain.
Nothing will TPK the party faster than to reach the final bad guy at the end of an AP, only to be 10th lvel for a fight in which they should be 18th level and they get their butts handed to them.
Fact is, they will never reach that final fight because any of the harder encounters along the way will finish them off.
PCs in a long-term D&D campaign cannot afford to blow off half of the available loot and XP and still expect to keep up with the campaign
If you let them off the hook by dumbing down future encounters, or padding the way with random encounters to provide the loot and XP they missed, then you're both encouraging and rewarding their clever circumnavigations of all your plot and preparation.
So make sure that:
A. Stuff they skip is important in the next bit of the adventure and they suffer for the lack of it. Some clue, some key, some artifact, whatever, is critical soon and now they don't have it - and make sure they know why.
B. Skipping loot and XP makes future encounters increasingly harder. The more they do it, they less chance they have to survive. Make sure they know this, too.
So let their tricks work. Let them feel good about being so clever.
Then let them find out how the only ones they fooled were themselves.
Not every time - but often enough to encourage them to leave no dungeon room unexplored.
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<snip>great ideas</snip>That all sounds awesome... except.. once again the rules get in the way. You could not cast an antimagic field that reaches into the ground, because emanations need line of effect. Once it hits the ground it stops.
OK, so it go to the edge of the wall...now, they are dispelled once they get to that edge, some thing, except now you Know they're there, since their stupid little noses are there. Sticking out of the wall.
Greater Guards & Wards spell. Make it up, make it the ultimate in castle/dungeon defense. Perhaps that's what Hallaster used to keep adventurers screwed in Undermountain. It could trigger alarms, meaning when the elementals pop out into the room, the entire dungeon of bad guys is waiting for them...
Either that or the High Prioestess was havinga meeting with every high level priestess in the place...uh oh...she had also summoned a Pit Fiend as her consort and now it's mad cuz you interrupted the "fun"
I still believe the elementals should be blind.
They certainly have no line of sight to anything on the other side of the earth that is all around them.
Earth blocks line of sight. Dwarves and Drow cannot use darkvision to see through earth and stone, so neither can elementals.
I agree on all of that. But without giving elementals SOME sort of sense, how do they move around? How do they know how to get from place to place? Really it couldn't even be tremorsense because while that will tell them if there is something moving near them it doesn't really help them know which way is left/right, etc. I agree that darkvision is a poor answer for how they get around. It would have to be some sort of "earth sense" that lets them detect pockets or maybe even just lets them "see" by way of vibration. They send sonar waves into the stone around them and by the vibrations that return they can form a mental picture of their surroundings. I guess that seems a lot better than "darkvision".
You can have your incorporeals patrol through the earth, especially if the denizens are wise to the earthglide trick.
Well technically the incorporeals are an un-related 3rd party that are also interested in the valuables in the abandoned temple, but they can not enter it for other reasons. So instead they are floating around outside looking for opportunities to enter or assault those who go in/come out.
Elemental vs. ghost is a fun fight - your PCs won't get any of their non-persistent gear. No magical weapons. No spellcasting (maybe allow touch spells, but earthglide or not, magic missiles (and everything else at range) need line of sight and line of effect, neither of which they have underground, even if you have ruled that the elmentals can see, the magic spells still cannot see or travel over range.
In fact, since the elementals will have no magic weapons in elemental form, they won't be able to even hit the incorporeal critter. It can attack them freely with no fear of retaliation. Drain... Drain... Drain... Drain... Drain...
Yeah they VERY quickly decided to get the hell out of the ground. I just didn't know if I wanted to have to resort to that same trick if/when this comes up again (as I KNOW it will).
No, I'm not saying that you should deny them the reward of their clever idea.
I'm saying let it work once, maybe even twice, but not to the grand prize of the inner sanctum.
Then let the enemies rally and prepare for the next time they...
I agree. Some people act like I am annoyed that they broke my carefully constructed plan. I'm not. I applaud their ingenuity and creativity. The unfortunate fact of life though is that if the players skip to the final encounter and somehow defeat it then I have nothing else prepared and will be winging it for the remainder of the session. I, unlike some DM's, find winging high-level very challenging. I can wing low-level very well but I like to have encounters prepared ahead of time (not in any particular order, but I like to understand how best to use the individual monsters etc).
I must say though that this is a strong argument in favor of the traditional experience point model. A while back I switched to simply having them level after certain key points in the campaign. In many ways it was extremely liberating not having to track xps etc, but I see now one of the drawbacks. Without the "lure" (or need) of experience points the players can skip entire sections of adventures willy nilly with no real downside (well other than missing out on loot and the fun of fighting what was in those areas of course).
Anyway...
I must say though that this is a strong argument in favor of the traditional experience point model. A while back I switched to simply having them level after certain key points in the campaign. In many ways it was extremely liberating not having to track xps etc, but I see now one of the drawbacks. Without the "lure" (or need) of experience points the players can skip entire sections of adventures willy nilly with no real downside (well other than missing out on loot and the fun of fighting what was in those areas of course).
Problem solved then.
Just announce the fact that you're only giving them half a level worth of XP (since you don't track XP, you'll probably just tell them that by skipping 80% of the dungeon, they got the reward, finished the mission, but didn't really do enough to get enough XP to level up).
Then combine that with having their next fights be geared to a CR one level higher than they are (if you gave XP, this would result in them getting more XP per fight and leveling quicker, which is not a concern in your game).
And further compound it with the next adventure requiring that missing info/item from the unfinished dungeon and you're set.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Not sure if this has been mentioned, but if they skip ahead to the end of the dungeon, then they haven't cleared it out on the way there. While they're fighting the BBEG, the alarm can be raised, and every other creature in the dungeon can come in and dogpile on - turning a CR a few higher than the PCs level to one 10 or more higher instead. That should teach them to enter somewhere that leaves them surrounded.
Just announce the fact that you're only giving them half a level worth of XP (since you don't track XP, you'll probably just tell them that by skipping 80% of the dungeon, they got the reward, finished the mission, but didn't really do enough to get enough XP to level up).
Then combine that with having their next fights be geared to a CR one level higher than they are (if you gave XP, this would result in them getting more XP per fight and leveling quicker, which is not a concern in your game).
And further compound it with the next adventure requiring that missing info/item from the unfinished dungeon and you're set.
While that's certainly reasonable it still doesn't help me run something after they finish the inner sanctum. Its sort of like if you worked for weeks building a temple full of interesting encounters, stocked the rooms with treasure, created a storyline for why who and what was where, and then the players showed up to the first session and teleported into the final encounter. Sure, applaud the players ingenuity, but inside you are thinking, "ok, if, by some freak chance, they defeat this final encounter, what then? I have nothing else ready..." Even from the players perspective, if 2 hours into what is normally a 6 hour session the DM says "well thats it, you win d&d! I have nothing else" the players are going to sit around staring blankly at each other going... "uhhh cool?"
I think I'll just go with the extra-planar chamber theory. I just need to now fit it into the storyline in a good way.
It sounds like you have a great solution to the current dungeon.
But like you said, once your players find a strategy that seems to work great, they drive it into the ground. So finding ways to deal with this generally is probably a good thing to do.
I think if you're going to allow 'vision' (or perception however) while Earthgliding, a good limiter would be to allow seeing stuff within the Earth/Stone, but not 'outside' past the edges of stone surfaces. The players could see the surfaces themselves, but it looks like a wall, effectively - Actually, if some areas are lined with metal/anti-magic 'sheets'/mere plaster or concrete, they may not be able to discover this until they attempt to cross it. (Anti-magic would be detectable via detect magic effects unless magically concealed)
I think it's very possible to allow the technique to work, and allow limited success, but it eventually be discovered to not be an "instant win button". Requiring 'round by round' checks (as much as normal exploration) and having defined limits on movement, perception, communication, spell LoS, etc is very different than just saying "OK you can move thru to wherever you want, ignoring the detail in between".
"Normal" (non-earthgliding/incorporeal) opponents alerted somehow (thru alarms or simply noticing the PCs emerge, even momentarily from a surface, which they can feign to not notice) who alert all the opposition to re-organize to defend from earthgliding intruders. Even getting lost seems like it could be a big deal, especially when the PCs come across earthgliding/incorporeal foes, but then when they try to escape thru a wall surface, they find the area they're in is covered in material blocking passage, trapping them!
In any case, at the level they're playing at, non-magical special material defenses, magical alarms, magical wards (anti-magic, contingency effects, etc), and just intelligently portrayed NPC opposition, all seem par for course. It really shouldn't be any different than when your PCs gained access to Fly.
What Quandary said. At high levels, regular dungeons just don't cut it, and that shouldn't come as a surprise to high-level bad guys (even if it comes as a surprise to the DM). Some sort of defense against incorporeal/ethereal/teleporting/scrying/earth-gliding enemies should be common sense by that point, whether it's anti-magic or lead or moving the whole operation to the Plane of Shadow.
What Quandary said. At high levels, regular dungeons just don't cut it, and that shouldn't come as a surprise to high-level bad guys (even if it comes as a surprise to the DM). Some sort of defense against incorporeal/ethereal/teleporting/scrying/earth-gliding enemies should be common sense by that point, whether it's anti-magic or lead or moving the whole operation to the Plane of Shadow.
That's a very good point. In all honesty this is the first time in about 30 years of playing/dming that I have run a high (12th+ level) dungeon. In the past all of my campaigns generally self destruct around 9th-12th levels so I never had to deal with these sorts of things.
Unthinkingly, I constructed it following general low-level concepts, basic walls, basic temple etc. I accept now that in high level play I need to think more "high level" and make some things a bit more "fantastic" ala other planes and pocket dimensions etc. While the dungeon may require a bit of recalibration so will my preconceived notions as to dungeon design. This has been enlightening.
BTW, I've seen it mooted here on the boards that Paizo might publish a book aimed at DMs specifically expanding on how the game runs at different level tiers. IMHO, examining the implications of the different spells and class powers gained at each level tier, and how PC/NPC interactions could be modified accordingly, would be VERY helpful for many DMs. The same book could also cover stuff like Epic Levels, mass combat, and corner cases or extensions of the core combat/movement/skill rules that might pop up more often in high level play.
It simply IS very easy to get in "over your head" because levelling up "just happens", and while players are obviously very motivated to learn the ins and outs of THEIR new abilities, you as the DM have to worry about all that AND 10x more. The main cue the current DMG gives is upping the CR of opponents, which is really only half the equation. (though it can be said that having a handle on all this stuff and intelligently implementing it from the NPCs perspective is necessary to actualize the given CRs)
Some sort of defense against incorporeal/ethereal/teleporting/scrying/earth-gliding enemies should be common sense by that point, whether it's anti-magic or lead or moving the whole operation to the Plane of Shadow.That's a very good point. In all honesty this is the first time in about 30 years of playing/dming that I have run a high (12th+ level) dungeon. In the past all of my campaigns generally self destruct around 9th-12th levels so I never had to deal with these sorts of things.
Unthinkingly, I constructed it following general low-level concepts, basic walls, basic temple etc. I accept now that in high level play I need to think more "high level" and make some things a bit more "fantastic" ala other planes and pocket dimensions etc. While the dungeon may require a bit of recalibration so will my preconceived notions as to dungeon design. This has been enlightening.
The same thing happened in a play-by-email game I used to play in. By the time we reached around level 14, the DM started getting very frustrated by high level magic like Gate, Teleport, etherealness, etc. (not to mention all of the extra work involved in high level playing in general). The last dungeon we went through used the good old "teleporting, incorporealness, monster summoning, etc. doesn't work here because of epic level protection spells", which was frustrating to the spellcasters in the group. The DM just gave up soon after that, and now he's blissfully DMing low-level 4E games where he doesn't have to worry about any of that junk. :-)
The DM just gave up soon after that, and now he's blissfully DMing a new low-level 4E game where he doesn't have to worry about any of that junk. :-)
Oh no!
Not 4e!
He gave up DMing altogether and simply checked himself into hospice then?
As I see it, 4e took the DMing out of being a DM. All you have to do is read a story (make one up if you're old-school) and move the little minis around the table, occasionally picking their attack combo from the preset list - make sure to use dailies first since they are the best and the monster won't have two fights today.
I'm sad to see your DM friend go.
Hopefully, he can be cured? Is there still room to hope?
BTW, I've seen it mooted here on the boards that Paizo might publish a book aimed at DMs specifically expanding on how the game runs at different level tiers. IMHO, examining the implications of the different spells and class powers gained at each level tier, and how PC/NPC interactions could be modified accordingly, would be VERY helpful for many DMs. The same book could also cover stuff like Epic Levels, mass combat, and corner cases or extensions of the core combat/movement/skill rules that might pop up more often in high level play.
It simply IS very easy to get in "over your head" because levelling up "just happens", and while players are obviously very motivated to learn the ins and outs of THEIR new abilities, you as the DM have to worry about all that AND 10x more. The main cue the current DMG gives is upping the CR of opponents, which is really only half the equation. (though it can be said that having a handle on all this stuff and intelligently implementing it from the NPCs perspective is necessary to actualize the given CRs)
I personally would greatly appreciate such a product. I even encourage it. In fact, I have just pulled $40 out of my wallet and am ready to hand it to whomever creates such a guidebook (and does a nice job of it, as I know Paizo would).
I want a book called "How to Protect Your Evil Lair from Annoying Adventurers" and have that book contain both a listing of all the existing spells which can be used to defend your lair, to different ways of using existing creatures or spells to protect your lair, to adding in all new spells geared specifically towards protecting lairs etc. I looked through the entire Spell Compendium and basically every single spell in there is about killing or disabling things. I want a book of spells less geared towards combats and more towards color or things PC's encounter (but would be unlikely to use since they are location dependent effects etc).
<...waving money back and forth...>
Any takers?
The same thing happened in a play-by-email game I used to play in. By the time we reached around level 14, the DM started getting very frustrated by high level magic like Gate, Teleport, etherealness, etc. (not to mention all of the extra work involved in high level playing in general). The last dungeon we went through used the good old "teleporting, incorporealness, monster summoning, etc. doesn't work here because of epic level protection spells", which was frustrating to the spellcasters in the group. The DM just gave up soon after that, and now he's blissfully DMing low-level 4E games where he doesn't have to worry about any of that junk. :-)
Yep. That's about right. Once the high level spells started becoming a factor I generally got frustrated and scrapped it and started over. It also helped that I and the players often began losing interest in the campaigns around then so it wasn't too bad. However, I am now running this campaign specifically because my players freaking begged me not to let this campaign die like all of the others. I caved and said I'd give it a real shot. So far its working out better than I feared, I just need to up my game a bit more. I am used to running a more "real-world" campaign but at these levels "real-world" enemies are at a severe disadvantage. No biggie, I just have to start thinking a bit more grandiose.
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But, I don't think they can fight each other, because the SRD specifically says they are composed of the same materials as the ground in the area where they are summoned.They can move through that ground like "a fish through water" which means, since they are made of the same stuff, they move through each other like "a fish through water" too.
Umm just because things are made from the same thing that others are doesn't mean that just because they can move through one they can move through the other. By that ruling they wouldn't be much of a threat since they are composed of carbon and so are humans, and you know swords, and soil. so they can't ever touch or hit anything. I understand where you're coming from, but by your ruling earth elementals can never touch or hurt each other unless they come from different planes even aboveground because they still earthglide. Isn't it better to assume that while they are made from the same earth their composition changes when they form into the elemental and therefor can't be earthglided through?
Once the high level spells started becoming a factor I generally got frustrated and scrapped it and started over. It also helped that I and the players often began losing interest in the campaigns around then so it wasn't too bad. However, I am now running this campaign specifically because my players freaking begged me not to let this campaign die like all of the others. I caved and said I'd give it a real shot. So far its working out better than I feared, I just need to up my game a bit more. I am used to running a more "real-world" campaign but at these levels "real-world" enemies are at a severe disadvantage. No biggie, I just have to start thinking a bit more grandiose.
What you say is true.
But I found it to be a double-edged sword.
Once I got savvy to the fact that my players frequently came up with some spell or some trick that completely trivializes a scenario, or an encounter, I begain to plan ahead.
I made trickier bad guys, harder puzzles, hardened defenses resistent to many magical intrusions, etc.
And sometimes the players rose to the challenge and found a way in.
But all too often, the players just got frustrated. They would try a few things that I had already thought of, and those things would fail, then they would sit around the table, griping about how this was too hard.
Then the cell phones came out, and the Nintendo DSes, and pretty soon nobody was playing D&D until I rallied them and thrust them forward in the story "Hey, guys, that door you couldn't open just mysteriously opened up. What do you do?"
It's amazingly easy to TPK a group at any level, but high level encounters are deadly. If the players don't figure out the clever weakness, they may be no match for the monster.
They're fighting an advanced fiendish lycanthropic dire vampyric dracolich with 47 class levels in Epic Monk. Sure, you named him Achilles, and if anyone stabs him in the left rear heel, he crumbles to bone dust. But it's only the left heel. And when the clever player thought of it, he tried the right rear heel and it didn't work, so they moved on. And now they're going to die. Now what?
You cheat. You have him start to crumble, starting with whatever heel they tried, even though that was 7 rounds ago. The cracks and crumbling spread up from there, and within a round or two, Achilles becomes a gigantic pile of bone bits. And the players say "Wow, we were right about the heel! Yay for us!" and you try not to hang your head in remorse where the players can see it.
I didn't keep statistics, but I would say that roughly half the time the players handled high-level challenges, and the other half, they didn't handle it at all and I had to bail them out in some way.
Maybe I was too over-the-top. Maybe they were too in-the-box. Hard to say.
But at times, it was frustrating for all of us.
Except when it all came together. I was dishing out high-level challenges, they were knocking them out of the partk, it was like a beautiful machine.
At those times, it was the most fun I've had DMing ever.
You cheat. You have him start to crumble, starting with whatever heel they tried, even though that was 7 rounds ago. The cracks and crumbling spread up from there, and within a round or two, Achilles becomes a gigantic pile of bone bits. And the players say "Wow, we were right about the heel! Yay for us!"
I too make changes on the fly in the interests of an interesting story or maintaining interest levels etc. If I see the session is dragging or something isn't hooking like I hoped it would I tweak things on the fly, wing it, as it were. Sometimes those on-the-spot edits turn off into far more interesting directions than I would ever have planned and sometimes they come back to bite me in the rear if something I said contradicted something I said before. Then I have to scramble to make it make sense to the players and avoid it becoming too obvious I was making s*it up as I went!
For anyone curious, I did some tweaking to the elemental type just because after seeing them in play I was dissatisfied with them having darkvision and how they would interact with other creatures.
I created a document at http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ajkj5296v35m_10vv67xrck with my thoughts. I'd be curious to see what others think.
Isn't Elemental Body a personal spell?
Can you breath while gliding?
Isn't Elemental Body a personal spell?
The spell in question is "Polymorph" (which subsumes various Beast Shape, Elemental Body and other spells and is usable on others).
Can you breath while gliding?
Well, you can breathe while burrowing, which isn't quite the same thing, I guess:
"If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the abilityto breathe if you are swimming or burrowing."
Isn't Elemental Body a personal spell?
Can you breath while gliding?
Yes, Elemental Body is personal. However, Polymorphs range is touch and Polymorph grants elemental body to the targets.
As for breathing, that's a good question. I'll have to look into that. I would guess that when you take the elementals form you don't but if it is not explicitly stated you could argue that you don't lol.
It still sounds like you guys are grasping at straws to ruin the players' fun.
I'd say that it's an attempt to make sure everyone have fun, including the DM - remember that guy, the one who did all the work for all the others to have fun with?
It still sounds like you guys are grasping at straws to ruin the players' fun.
Yeah. Thats my goal. Ruin their fun. Lol
It still sounds like you guys are grasping at straws to ruin the players' fun.
Wow.
I've said over and over, the players came up with something clever, so let them enjoy it. Let it work a time or two. Let them whop and hollar and laugh and pat each other on the back for pulling the wool over the monsters' eyes.
But.
The game is supposed to be a game. Games should have challenge.
Now that the players have come up with this, should they spend the rest of their days until retirement earthgliding into dungeons, killing the big bad guy and taking his stuff, then moving on to the next dungeon? Never exploring, never experiencing all that the dungeon has to offer?
I bet they can even take these bad guys by surprise. Catch them unaware, sleeping maybe. No alarms have gone off. No fighting in the halls. The PCs haven't drained their resources fighting their way down to the bad guy.
Nope, just glide in, easy fight, take the loot, glide out.
Should this campaign boil down to simply doing this over and over? Dungeon after dungeon?
Of course not.
The DM has an obligation to challenge the players. When the players find a way to handle the challenge, they should be rewarded. When the players find a way to sneak around the challenge and avoid it entirely, well, they should be rewarded the first time for clever thinking, but maybe not the full amount of XP and treasure they would get for handling the whole challenge Doesn't it make sense that if there are 8 encounters in dungeon that are worth XP and treasure, and the PCs only kill one of them, that they will get less XP and treasure?
But then it's up to the DM to restore the challenge. To find ways to prevent this new clever idea from taking over and robbing the entire game of all its challenge from now until the end of the campaign.
That's what we're discussing here.
How to handle the great idea so it is rewarding but not game breaking.
And in all fairness, in a world where powerful bad guys build strongholds that are supposed to keep powerful good guys from breaking in and killing them, those bad guys would have either thought of many tricks, or heard of many tricks, or used divination spells to see how heroes will break into the fortress in the future, and they will plan accordingly, build defenses to block most of these tricks. All of them if they can anticipate them and afford the safeguards and have the time to build the defenses.
So hop on down, boy, that horse is way too high for you.
Well said Blake. Thanks!
Ditto to you Blake. Well Said.
Lead Lining = Expensive, but also blocks divinations! Bonus!
Iron bars = cheaper, and almost as effective!
Its true that at a certain point, it becomes railroading, or domination, but challenging players by frustrating their plans is perfectly fine in my book.
Consider this: in any game world where A: people other than the PCs can hit high level (17+) and B: the tarrasque exists, this means that nobody has figured out the whole "Wish it dead" bit. To everyone in that world, the tarrasque is just unkillable, and the PC wizard who says "wish it dead" is given the same look as Gallileo or Columbus: ignorant at best, crazy at worst.
A great thread!
I think one of the challenges of high-level play is the fact that as a GM, you are really challenged to dive into the depths of your imagination to make the game exciting and make the play experience a challenging one for players. It's easy enough at lower levels, to run the game "by-the-book", so to speak, but not so at levels 11+ when the PCs become very powerful. In my opinion, the higher levels of play almost force you to play D&D as it was originally intended to be played by its creators… with the rules as a framework for the GM and players to use as they see fit, rather than as a straight-jacket.
If you have access to DUNGEON 134, there is a very interesting dungeon specifically tailored to challenge high-level characters for the Age of Worms adventure path. The adventure is written by James Jacobs himself! I don't want to spoil anything for people who are running that campaign however. So I'll present some ideas that spring to mind that are inspired by one particular dungeon in that adventure for future high-level campaigning:
1) The dungeon is permeated by a malignant evil presence, perhaps the essence of an evil deity, that gives even the walls of the dungeon sinister properties.
2) The walls of a dungeon are actually a living organism, and react violently to alteration/intrusion of any sort.
3) Ancient magical defenses, the knowledge of which is long lost are set up to discourage unconventional intrusions.
4) A dungeon/castle, is made of an entirely alien material that reacts in strange ways to known magics. Certain materials can even be impervious to magic. (much like golems for instance).
5) Certain areas of a stronghold are reinforced with permanent walls of force… especially windows!
6) One particular dungeon may be made up entirely of permanent walls of force… sure you can see everything, but try getting to it!
7) A dungeon could be made of an unconventional element, such as walls made of water, or wind that blows with such force that effectively is a wall.
8) Of course, adventuring on other planes opens up lots of avenues for a GM to bend the rules of magic and logic.
Oh, how about this: a dungeon whos walls are made entirely of a gate… touch them at all and you are transported to a random layer of the abyss!!!
2) The walls of a dungeon are actually a living organism, and react violently to alteration/intrusion of any sort.
I used to have this issue in Shadowrun. With ethereal mages zooming around.
The same solution worked for me too. It's an old moldy dungeon, and the walls are coated with thick lichen in lots of places. The lichen also grows deeper into the walls in veins. You can't earthglide through lichen.
Ditto to you Blake. Well Said.
Lead Lining = Expensive, but also blocks divinations! Bonus!
Iron bars = cheaper, and almost as effective!
Its true that at a certain point, it becomes railroading, or domination, but challenging players by frustrating their plans is perfectly fine in my book.
Consider this: in any game world where A: people other than the PCs can hit high level (17+) and B: the tarrasque exists, this means that nobody has figured out the whole "Wish it dead" bit. To everyone in that world, the tarrasque is just unkillable, and the PC wizard who says "wish it dead" is given the same look as Gallileo or Columbus: ignorant at best, crazy at worst.
Ooooh, goody! I exist! The Black Bard said so!
Wish me dead?
Bah!
I have a contingency wish on me, triggered when someone casts wish on me, that wishes your wish would target the caster of the spell instead of me...
Hah!
Oh, maybe I shouldn't o' told you that...
Ok, from what I can see, you have already figured out your solution. Just protect the final chamber. Don't worry about your PCs earthgliding around the rest of the complex, ganking guardians and stealing keys. Let them have their fun. However, if you really want to protect the final chamber, consider doing so in a way that invalidates Earthglide as an entry method without seeming petty.
What I mean is, that earthglide's purpose is to go through walls. If you do something to the walls to make earthglide fail to work, your PCs will feel cheated, because the tool they have is effectively failing to perform the task it was designed to do. The obvious solution then is to make earthglide irrelevant to the task at hand. Earthglide goes through walls, so therefore, don't give the final chamber walls at all.
Instead, consider putting the important part of the final chamber on a demiplane or extradimensional space anchored to a false door, which can only be opened with the attuned keys. Let your PCs earthglide past the warded door and find nothing but empty space or blank rock beyond. Let them interrogate someone in the complex who has seen the chamber opened with the keys, never without, and who insists the chamber exists, despite what earthgliding into the area indicates. Let them make knowledge checks regarding architecture, magic, etc. and Disable Device checks to examine the locking mechanism, with reasonable DCs so that they can figure things out on their own.
They are 15th level at this point, so a room inside a glorified bag of holding is not out of the question in terms of magical resources their enemies potentially have access to, especially if these are high priestesses of a god with an interest in keeping secrets. Moreover, this defense neatly covers all manner of infiltration methods, not just earthglide, so it doesn't look like your villains are specifically defending themselves against your PCs and their specific tactics.
-C. Robert Brown
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<snip>great ideas</snip>That all sounds awesome... except.. once again the rules get in the way. You could not cast an antimagic field that reaches into the ground, because emanations need line of effect. Once it hits the ground it stops.Bummer.
Surely there is a justification for a powerful dungeon-building wizard to invent a below-ground antimagic shield that isn't inhibited by this rule?
If not, then it's plan B:
The dungeon builder raises, from little infantile hatchlings (?) a score or more loyal purple worms and sets them to guard duty around his dungeon.
Oh, and he trains them to prefer the yummy crunchy goodness of earth elementals as their favorite snack food, like a dog loves a bone.
Try to earthglide out of a purple worm's belly...
Just dig tiny 5-foot deep holes *everywhere* in your dungeon... spaghetti thin holes... the antimagic field goes into the holes and suffuse an area that is 5-foot thick, and the non-holes (whatever is left of the rock wall) still serves as a physical barrier (perhaps with less hit points per 5-foot section, but still a wall... think of it as a glorified mosquitoe screen... :P )
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How far through solid stone can a player "see" while earthgliding?Before the last session ended this came up. Elemental Body 1, if you choose Earth Elemental, gives you Darkvision 60'. As I could not see any other method of sensing visually for an elemental I determined that that must be how elementals see underground. Obviously it doesn't make sense as its not just dark, its solid, there is 0 visibility, but, elementals do not have tremor sense (which I thought they might). So, since darkvision is how earth elementals see I decided that the PC's must be able to see, at least to 60' and then its gone, solid wall of blackness.Oooh, tough call on the darkvision.
I would highly suggest revising that.
Just say "Whoops, I thought about it, and I was wrong."
Here's why.
Darkvision, like all vision, requires line of sight from the viewer's eyeball to whatever he is viewing.
A dwarf with darkvision cannot see 60' through stone. He has no line of sight through the stone.
Same with earth elementals.
Nothing actually sees through the ground. That is what tremorsense is for.
You're right, earth elementals are lacking tremorsense, which is problematic for them.
So, you can leave your ruling as is, saying the elemental gets an ability that no other creature in any of the monster manuals (as far as I know) gets, the ability to utilize vision without line of sight.
Or you can rule that earth elementals get tremorsense.
Or go a different direction, giving them something equivalent to blind fighting, the ability to sense things that are extremely close - within reach.
As for me, I think it makes no sense (no pun intended) that earth elementals lack tremorsense.
But I can't justify letting them see without line of sight.
Perception "touch?"
I don't get it... we're talking about 15th level here... the party is supposed to be able to do 15 impossible things before breakfast. If your adventure breaks due to something as simple as earthglide (a 6th level druid ability) what are you doing about Teleport? Shadow Walk? Dimension Door? Passwall, or any number of other abilities to bypass a fixed obstacle gauntlet.
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Lining every wall of an entire dungeon with lead would cost more than building, trapping, furnishing, and populating the dungeon.Much much more efficient than lining the walls with anything that keeps elementals out, is simply placing a bubble of antimagic around most of key areas.What colour is the sky in your world, where a thin layer of lead is prohibitively expensive, but multiple permanent antimagic fields are cost-effective?
;-)
Yeah... ask China if lead paint is expensive... :P
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I don't know...this entire thing sounds like a way for your to salvage YOUR story and YOUR dungeon at the expense of the PLAYER'S fun. They came up with a cool idea that wil allow them to bypass the intricate and Mcguffinish set-up of your dungeon. More power to them! This is really no different then if they decided to teleport/dimension door past the door, or disintegrated the wall next to the door, or cast stone to mud on the door, or....do you see my point. They found a door and left with the option of searching for a bunch of keys or JUST GOING PAST THE DOOR, they took the easier option and it's very poor form to try and screw them over.
Agreed. Be a man and give 'em their boss fight already.
If I recall correctly circle of teleportation* are not visible unless clearly marked. Let him/her glide right into one so they are back at the beginning of the dungeon.
*That may not be the exact spell name, but if you don't know which spell I am speaking of I will try to look up the correct name.
Well that's all good and all, BUT...
Nowhere in either the Polymorph Spell, nor in Elemental Body for that matter, does it say that your EQUIPMENT is magically transformed WITH you.
So they can Polymorph away and merrily glide through your dungeon to their hearts content, though arriving NAKED and UNARMED might be counterproductive. Think of it as a lycanthrope changing form in the movies, there is always the obligatory 'naked in the forest the next morning' shot - or how about the Hulk only ending up with (inexplicably) his purple shorts.
If people try and use rules in a 'shifty' manner, they deserve a bit of pedantry from the GM :p
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For anyone curious, I did some tweaking to the elemental type just because after seeing them in play I was dissatisfied with them having darkvision and how they would interact with other creatures.
I created a document at http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ajkj5296v35m_10vv67xrck with my thoughts. I'd be curious to see what others think.
Sandstorm came up with the "Asherati" race, also known as "sandswimmers". Basically a race that can "earth glide" in sand only, while emiting intense light waves that allow them to "see" in the sand... (outside sand this manifests as a daylight spell I think... not sure anymore... been a while, and sold the book along with most of the 3.5 shyte I own...)
While "cool" I always thought it was kinda stupid, so I think PRPG offers a best explanation with the "touch" aspect of the Perception skill. Elementals could have a use racial bonus to Perception "touch" checks. Like a previous poster mentioned, what's their hurry? they can just drift in the elemental plane of earth "feeling" their way around most of the time...
"Oh, this spot feels more dense... move around it"
"Oh, this spot feels smooth... engulf the sweet gem/glass node"
Etc.
But I also agree that mechanically speaking, the best, most simple solution is tremorsense.
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2) The walls of a dungeon are actually a living organism, and react violently to alteration/intrusion of any sort.
I used to have this issue in Shadowrun. With ethereal mages zooming around.
The same solution worked for me too. It's an old moldy dungeon, and the walls are coated with thick lichen in lots of places. The lichen also grows deeper into the walls in veins. You can't earthglide through lichen.
Best solution along that line: incorporeal ghosts and shadows. EVERYWHERE.
:)
Muhahahahahahaha!
Well in this case the guy GMing made the point its the final boss baddy lair of nasty - probably clean obsidian lined walls carved with hellish reliefs.
I still think it would be better 'lulz' for them to drop into the sacrificial chamber already buck naked and ready for the cooking pot :p
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Well that's all good and all, BUT...
Nowhere in either the Polymorph Spell, nor in Elemental Body for that matter, does it say that your EQUIPMENT is magically transformed WITH you.
So they can Polymorph away and merrily glide through your dungeon to their hearts content, though arriving NAKED and UNARMED might be counterproductive. Think of it as a lycanthrope changing form in the movies, there is always the obligatory 'naked in the forest the next morning' shot - or how about the Hulk only ending up with (inexplicably) his purple shorts.
If people try and use rules in a 'shifty' manner, they deserve a bit of pedantry from the GM :p
Read the polymorph subschool, under the "Transmutation" section of the Magic chapter of the PRPG. YES: all your gear meld into your new form, and you retain all constant bonuses EXCEPT armor bonus (natural armor amulets, rings of protection [deflection], any stat boosting items, etc. STILL all count!!!)
...and you can add back your full plate +2 armor bonus back if you enchant that armor with the "wild" armor enchantment.
Wildshape/polymorph is now very kickass and SIMPLE. The only real change to your character sheet now is stat boosts from the form you take, plus size bonus to AC and attack rolls (and the new STR, CON and DEX may affect your skills... and your new fly maneuvrability will also affect your fly skill... but that's if you're nuts like me and make sure all your forms are pre-worked skill-wise as well...)
Look at that, you are correct.
I'd be immediately revoking that kinda behaviour with some swift house rules saying its you and you only. Invisibility is the other one I'm not a fan of.
Polymorph is about changing a living being into another; not a living being and untold numbers of inanimate objects into a single other creature.
I don't get it... we're talking about 15th level here... the party is supposed to be able to do 15 impossible things before breakfast. If your adventure breaks due to something as simple as earthglide (a 6th level druid ability) what are you doing about Teleport? Shadow Walk? Dimension Door? Passwall, or any number of other abilities to bypass a fixed obstacle gauntlet.
Certainly they should be able to do 15 impossible things before breakfast. Unfortunately there should be SOME things that are a challenge. Like the final chamber in an evil priestesses stronghold. Sue me. When I designed the temple I wanted entry into the final chamber to involve finding keys in various places throughout the temple. The priestesses would have planned this very carefully. This is not about screwing the players, this is about maintaining some level of challenge, at least in the inner sanctum of the temple. If they cut to the end and bypass everything else its going to be a short adventure. However, DM_Blake explained this far better than I can so I'll point you to his post further up-thread (thanks again Blake).
As for blocking the spells you mentioned? Forbiddance covers all of those except for passwall. I didn't really think about how I would cover passwall but I suppose I don't have to now that the inner sanctum will be in a pocket dimension.