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When I took Craft: Armorsmithing and Craft: Weaponsmithing ranks for my Second Darkness campaign fighter, I knew full well that the Craft skill requires a certain amount of downtime.
However, I guess I never truly made the math on this. If I want to craft a MW full plate (1650gp), assuming I roll 20 by taking 10, is it correct to assume that it will take my character 41.25 weeks to bloody do it?
1650 x 10 = 16500
20 x 20 = 400
16500 / 400 = 41.25
Is this right?!? O_o
Is this remotely close to what an armorsmith could have done back in the middle-ages, for the better part of a *whole year* of hard work?!?
When I took Craft: Armorsmithing and Craft: Weaponsmithing ranks for my Second Darkness campaign fighter, I knew full well that the Craft skill requires a certain amount of downtime.
However, I guess I never truly made the math on this. If I want to craft a MW full plate (1650gp), assuming I roll 20 by taking 10, is it correct to assume that it will take my character 41.25 weeks to bloody do it?
1650 x 10 = 16500
20 x 20 = 400
16500 / 400 = 41.25
Is this right?!? O_o
Is this remotely close to what an armorsmith could have done back in the middle-ages, for the better part of a *whole year* of hard work?!?
Per the RAW... It would actually take longer.
You roll the armor and MW seperately.
So,
1500gp = 15000sp : Plate, DC 18.
If you take 10, and have 10, you get 20 * 18 = 360
Let's assume you'd buy MW tools (cheap at 55gp).
If you take 10, and have 10, you get 22 * 18 = 396 (close to your 400)
15000/396 = 37.8 (38 weeks)
The MW component is relatively cheap. 1500 sp
If you take 10, and have 10 (plus MW tools), you get 22 * 20 = 440
1500/440 = 3.4 weeks (42 weeks total)
So, 42/52 = 80% of a year, or about 10 months.
I don't honestly think this would represent how long it would take to make the full plate back then, but, that's because I don't think a lowly average blacksmith would be MAKING full plate. I'm quite sure that full plate was made by expert blacksmiths.
Basically, someone at level 7 (assuming no INT bonus and no skill boosts) would have been relegated to making horseshoes, pots, wagon wheels, etc.
The expert would have been someone with an INT bonus, and someone who focused on armorsmithing. They would have been the person doing the Voluntary +10 to DC, and still taking 10.
Assuming:
Int Bonus +2
Skill Focus (Armorsmithing)
MW Tools
Final Skill Check Value : 20
Inc DC to 28, take 10, 30 * 28 = 840
15,000 / 840 = 17.85 (18 weeks)
Inc DC to 30 for MW component, take 10, 30 * 30 = 900
1,500 / 900 = 1.66 (2 weeks)
Total time to make, 20 weeks. Still a long time, but that's about what I would have expected for full plate. About 5 months.
Also note that it costs 550gp to make the MW Full Plate. Even spending 10 months on it, you'll sell it for 1650, which is 1100gp profit.
An unskilled laborer makes 1sp a day for work.
10 months = 300 days = 300 sp = 30gp for the same amount of work.
That means your lowly blacksmith is making 36 sp 6cp per day, 36 times what the unskilled laborer is. (1100 * 10 = 11000 / 300 = 36.6667)
The well trained blacksmith from the second example is making twice as much, 73sp, 3cp. (1100 * 10 = 11000 / 150 = 73.333)
A couple of lowly blacksmith apprentices to aid could help too. Still it takes a loooong time...
This isn't going to help your point much, but your math is a little off.
The Masterwork part of the armor is calculated separately. While technically you are making the masterwork item all at once you mechanically make the item then add the masterwork component, or vice versa.
So for the masterwork part it is:
150gp x 10 = 1500sp
20 Craft check (taking 10) x 20 DC = 400
1500sp / 400sp Craft check = 3.75 weeks
And then for the armor it is:
1500gp x 10 = 15000sp
20 Craft check (taking 10) x 18 DC (For Platemail) = 360
15000sp / 380sp Craft check = 41.5 weeks (rounded to the nearest quarter week)
For a total of 45.25 weeks average for taking 10.
And yes, that is the correct math for the system.
EDIT:: Ninja'ed fighting the forum bug. :S
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This isn't going to help your point much, but your math is a little off.
The Masterwork part of the armor is calculated separately. While technically you are making the masterwork item all at once you mechanically make the item then add the masterwork component, or vice versa.
So for the masterwork part it is:
150gp x 10 = 1500sp
20 Craft check (taking 10) x 20 DC = 400
1500sp / 400sp Craft check = 3.75 weeksAnd then for the armor it is:
1500gp x 10 = 15000sp
20 Craft check (taking 10) x 18 DC (For Platemail) = 360
15000sp / 380sp Craft check = 41.5 weeks (rounded to the nearest quarter week)For a total of 45.25 weeks average for taking 10.
And yes, that is the correct math for the system.
EDIT:: Ninja'ed fighting the forum bug. :S
All of this is also assuming that the Armorsmith in question is working alone, whereas it is more likely that he would have at least one (if not more) apprentice(s)/journeyman working on the project - each of which would add an additional +2 to the Craft check via Aid Another
Doesn't crafting also assume you spend only 8 hours per day on the item in question? A blacksmith putting overtime in could reduce the time frame.
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Sadly, things really break down with the craft skills when you get into anything with a value in 1000's of gp. Mithral and adamantine full plate takes years to work.
Don't even get me started on traps! The pricing for those things and their projected craft time are waaaay off :)
The kobolds in Revenge of the Kobold King would have had to be at the log camp a year ago to get all of the traps they built into place, instead of the night before.
I guess this is what Fabricate is for...
Basically, someone at level 7 (assuming no INT bonus and no skill boosts) would have been relegated to making horseshoes, pots, wagon wheels, etc.
Someone at level 7 would be the royal blacksmith.
It always depends the spread of levels and power.
I'd change the rules that if you beat the DC, you get to square your roll rather than get DC x roll.
All of this is also assuming that the Armorsmith in question is working alone, whereas it is more likely that he would have at least one (if not more) apprentice(s)/journeyman working on the project - each of which would add an additional +2 to the Craft check via Aid Another
Okily Dokily,
This is a good point, so let's explore it:
Journeyman, total skill bonus +10, with 1 assistant (I don't see a journeyman having more than one apprentice). We'll also give him MW tools (owned by his Master of course).
Skill + AID + MW Tools + 10 = 10 + 2 + 2 + 10 = 24
Armor DC = 18
18 * 24 = 432
15,000 / 432 = 34.75 (approx)
20 * 24 = 480 (For Masterwork)
1,500 / 480 = 3 (approx)
So, 37 weeks (better than the 42).
Craftsman Blacksmith, total skill bonus +20, with 1 journeyman and 2 apprentices. Also with MW tools.
Armor DC = 18 (Voluntarily add +10 for 28)
Skill + AID + MW Tools + 10 = 20 + 6 + 2 + 10 = 38 (Too bad we can't add +10 again)
28 * 38 = 1064
15,000 / 1064 = 14 weeks
30 * 38 = 1140 (for MW)
1,500 / 1140 = 1.25 weeks
Total Time : 15 weeks.
Note however, that you're now taking up FOUR characters for 15 weeks. Apprentices are not untrained labor, so they should get 2sp per day. A journeyman is a trained craftsman.
I can't find anything in Beta about how much trained people get paid, so let's say the apprentices get 5 sp per day (five times that of an untrained), and the journeyman get's 2 gp per day (we saw earlier he could make 36 sp per day on his own, but working for someone else ensures steady income, therefor slightly less).
15 weeks * 7 = 105 days
105 * 2gp = 210 gp (Journeyman)
105 * 5sp = 525 sp = 52.5gp (per Apprentice)
So, 315 gp from our 1100 gp profit earlier.
785gp = 7850 sp / 105 = 74.75sp per day, or about 7.5gp per day.
Still not bad. But you have to find some trained people who are not already working. Better luck in a big city.
Oh, and this doesn't count cost of rent for the forge, paying taxes to the city, or anything else like that.
Basically, someone at level 7 (assuming no INT bonus and no skill boosts) would have been relegated to making horseshoes, pots, wagon wheels, etc.Someone at level 7 would be the royal blacksmith.
It always depends the spread of levels and power.
I disagree.
Someone at level 1 to 5 would be an apprentice.
Someone at level 6 to 10 would be a journeyman.
Someone at level 11 to 15 would be a master.
Someone at level 16 to 20 would be a grand master.
Now, if you mean, someone at level 7 would be the royal blacksmith to the Kingdom of Smallville (Population 200), then yes, you are probably right. A journeyman would be the blacksmith in a small town (100-200 people). A master would be the blacksmith in a large town (1000 people), or to a major lord/king (5000+ people in the kingdom). A grand Master would be the royal blacksmith to a major king or lord or emporer (someone who controls multiple countries, or 50,000+ people in the kingdom).
All of this is also assuming that the Armorsmith in question is working alone, whereas it is more likely that he would have at least one (if not more) apprentice(s)/journeyman working on the project - each of which would add an additional +2 to the Craft check via Aid AnotherThis isn't going to help your point much, but your math is a little off.
The Masterwork part of the armor is calculated separately. While technically you are making the masterwork item all at once you mechanically make the item then add the masterwork component, or vice versa.
So for the masterwork part it is:
150gp x 10 = 1500sp
20 Craft check (taking 10) x 20 DC = 400
1500sp / 400sp Craft check = 3.75 weeksAnd then for the armor it is:
1500gp x 10 = 15000sp
20 Craft check (taking 10) x 18 DC (For Platemail) = 360
15000sp / 380sp Craft check = 41.5 weeks (rounded to the nearest quarter week)For a total of 45.25 weeks average for taking 10.
And yes, that is the correct math for the system.
EDIT:: Ninja'ed fighting the forum bug. :S
Absolutely. But Purple Dragon Knight didn't detail where the craft roll of 20 while taking 10 came from. So I can't assume his/her character didn't use helpers/apprentices.
The question was if the math was right, and to a lesser degree if it was a reasonable representation of fantasy-reality. I didn't take it as a request to suggest ways to maximize it.
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Check this combo out. According to RAW I think it should work. According to common sense*? Not so much.
Our armor smith is a 10th level Diviner working without helpers.
10 (ranks) + 4 (Int) + 3 (class skill) + 6 (skill focus) + 2 (MW tools) + 10 (*Diviner's Fortune (Su)) = 35 + d20 skill check
with results of 36 to 55. Take 10 and you have 45. That should cut down on the time needed to craft the armor. ;)
One could also ramp this up further with helpers (both "regular" helpers and see PS below), magical tools and further boosts to Intelligence (Fox's Cunning, Headband of Intellect etc.) and a few other things I'm sure I am missing.
Cheers
PS I also don't know of any rule that would stop you from having two (or more) skilled armor smith's working on the same set of armor, with both making their own progress checks on a weekly basis.
PSS I wouldn't allow the Diviner's Fortune in my game. :P
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We have a standing rule in our games that, in regards to a Craft roll for non-magical or magical items, only bonuses that apply for the entire 8 hours each day of said activity would apply to the final roll.
The idea isn't that you're crafting for weeks and then magically all your crafting experience goes into the last minute. Only permanent bonuses should apply.
It's a house rule at this point, but it prevents stuff like Diviner's Fortune or Fox's Cunning on the last day or other such things, which don't really make sense. Only bonuses that applied every hour of every day should apply to the final roll.
We have a standing rule in our games that, in regards to a Craft roll for non-magical or magical items, only bonuses that apply for the entire 8 hours each day of said activity would apply to the final roll.
The idea isn't that you're crafting for weeks and then magically all your crafting experience goes into the last minute. Only permanent bonuses should apply.
It's a house rule at this point, but it prevents stuff like Diviner's Fortune or Fox's Cunning on the last day or other such things, which don't really make sense. Only bonuses that applied every hour of every day should apply to the final roll.
Agree'd,
The only time I might allow Fox's Cunning to count is if it's Extended (Metamagically) and you're making 1 potion or 1 scroll.A +2 Int circlet on the other hand, that I would allow, since it's a continuous effect.
Any spell that has hours of effect that can last at least 8 hours would also be applicable, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. So I wouldn't require every minute of every day, but every minute of the actual work time (8 hours per day).
I've allowed people to put in more than 8 hours a day (no more than 12) if they can make a DC Fort save. Save starts at 10, and goes up by 1 for every additional day (or +5 per week) they work 12 hours. Failing the Fort Save auto-fails the day or week. Success gives a 50% bonus to the sp done that day/week. They have to rest a day/week to get rid of the increases to the fort save, or alternately, working normally for two days/weeks reduces it one level.
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I just threw in an hypothetical +10, assuming I'll give a few more ranks to my character so he's able to make a DC 20 by taking 10...
As some of you mentioned, the cost of the facilities, etc. would also need to be confirmed, so it becomes an Excel spreadsheet financial simulation unless you have a DM that does a bit of hand waving "yeah, sure... you can borrow a forge somewhere... and these two guys'll help ya..." :P
I'm glad you guys have confirmed my suspicions that Craft is a nigh useless skill unless you're playing a campaign that allows for a LOT of time and a LOT of flexibility from the DM. Unfortunately, our DM has given crafters a whopping total of 5 days between two adventures to craft items, so I've elected to not waste a lot of pts on Craft (DC 20 is enough and will allow someone to fix a broken weapon or armor) Thankfully, the mechanics to repair stuff are such that it doesn't take weeks to bloody repair them!
From PRPG Glossary, Broken condition:
"If the item is magical, it can only be repaired with a mending or make whole spell cast by a character with a caster level equal to or higher than the item’s and then only if the spell eliminates all of the damage the object has taken. Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the Craft skill used to create it. Generally speaking, this requires a DC 20 Craft check and 1 hour of work per point of damage to be repaired. Most craftsmen charge 1/10 the item’s total cost to repair such damage (more if the item is badly damaged or ruined)"
I'm glad you guys have confirmed my suspicions that Craft is a nigh useless skill unless you're playing a campaign that allows for a LOT of time and a LOT of flexibility from the DM. Unfortunately, our DM has given crafters a whopping total of 5 days between two adventures to craft items, so I've elected to not waste a lot of pts on Craft (DC 20 is enough and will allow someone to fix a broken weapon or armor) Thankfully, the mechanics to repair stuff are such that it doesn't take weeks to bloody repair them!
I'm thinking the amount of time taken is deliberate. I believe it was an attempt to curb "abuse" of the craft rules to save 2/3rds the cost of an item.
Also, your DM might not understand the basic craft rules. S/he might be basing the 5 days on magic items, which would allow you to craft item(s) totaling 5000gps. And that is fairly reasonable. But in the basic Crafting, that might be about 40gps worth of items...
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Here's how someone could speed up crafting: (bold emphasis mine) At caster level 13th, this means up to 26 servants, each with aid another +2 would grant a +52 to the daily craft check. Let me know what you think.
Mage’s Magnificent Mansion
School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 7
casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a miniature ivory door, a piece of
polished marble, and a silver spoon, each worth 5 gp)
effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect extradimensional mansion, up to three 10-ft. cubes/
level (S)
Duration 2 hours/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
description
You conjure up an extradimensional dwelling that has a single
entrance on the plane from which the spell was cast. The entry
point looks like a faint shimmering in the air that is 4 feet
wide and 8 feet high. Only those you designate may enter the
mansion, and the portal is shut and made invisible behind you
when you enter. You may open it again from your own side at
will. Once observers have passed beyond the entrance, they
are in a magnificent foyer with numerous chambers beyond.
The atmosphere is clean, fresh, and warm.
You can create any floor plan you desire to the limit of the
spell’s effect [PDK --> can this mean a forge? :) ]. The place is furnished and contains sufficient
foodstuffs to serve a nine-course banquet to a dozen people
per caster level. A staff of near-transparent servants (as many
as two per caster level), liveried and obedient, wait upon all
who enter. The servants function as unseen servant spells
except that they are visible and can go anywhere in the
mansion.[PDK --> I believe this means a ton of "aid another" +2s if one sets down to craft an item! :)]
Since the place can be entered only through its special
portal, outside conditions do not affect the mansion, nor do
conditions inside it pass to the plane beyond.
Here's how someone could speed up crafting: (bold emphasis mine) At caster level 13th, this means up to 26 servants, each with aid another +2 would grant a +52 to the daily craft check. Let me know what you think.
It is certainly possible... But be wary of a couple of things. If the GM is against the idea, "furnished" might not include forge tools and supplies. And, I know there was at least some discussion, if not anything "official" published (not necessarily by WotC), about limiting the amount of Aid Another's that can be applied to a single skill check.
And as just a nit pick, it isn't a daily skill check. ;-) That would be much more useful to you. :-P
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Here's how someone could speed up crafting: (bold emphasis mine) At caster level 13th, this means up to 26 servants, each with aid another +2 would grant a +52 to the daily craft check. Let me know what you think.It is certainly possible... But be wary of a couple of things. If the GM is against the idea, "furnished" might not include forge tools and supplies. And, I know there was at least some discussion, if not anything "official" published (not necessarily by WotC), about limiting the amount of Aid Another's that can be applied to a single skill check.
And as just a nit pick, it isn't a daily skill check. ;-) That would be much more useful to you. :-P
But ha ha! I believe the Craft skill allows for daily checks, and your successful progress means the weekly sp result divided by five... :)
If you want to pimp your craft skill up, you add Magecraft from Eberron and Divine Insight from Complete Adventurer.
However, that said, the Craft skill has always been broken. Placing the difficulty on the value on the materials makes it so that goldsmithing is ten times harder than silversmithing, which, as any book written in reality will tell you, is not the case.
Of course once people get to a certain level, it's assumed people have Fabricate which allows them to handwave the time away.
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What also bugs me is the inability of non spellcasters to mend broken magical items... the Master Craftsman feat is a step in the right direction, but it seems to apply to only one chosen skill (it should apply to all the craft skills you have, as you still need the proper item creation feats anyhow)
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Of course once people get to a certain level, it's assumed people have Fabricate which allows them to handwave the time away.
The "problem" I have with Fabricate is that this means that essentially any armor/weaponsmith (or any other of the crafting skills) of any worth, is a wizard/sorcerer. That doesn't really fit with my campaign vision. (Not that that really matters of course.) The spell is of personal use only. The caster has to make the Craft check and therefore must have spent the required skill points, feats etc. to craft the item being created. I would think that MW full plate armor would trigger the Fabricate part about "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship."
That being said, my scenario above (using Diviner's Fortune) becomes much more plausible when used in conjunction with Fabricate. After using Diviner's Fortune you have 3 rounds (more than adequate to cover the 1 round casting time for Fabricate) to create your armor. Seeing as how Fabricate is an instantaneous effect, we have no problems with Diviner's Fortune and Crafting like those mentioned above.
I guess this makes the most sense in a fantasy campaign setting, as the creators of magic armor and weapons are going to be spell casters in the end anyways.
Cheers
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As for the use of Mage's Magnificent Mansion as a forge...
...besides the mentioned objection(s) to using the 26 servants and the DM approval most likely needed to allow a forge to be included in the floor plan...
... I would point out that if a forge is all you need access to "in the field" as it were, Teleport is a 5th level spell and Greater Teleport is the same level as MMM.
Cheers
EDIT: ...and of course this still makes the crafter, at the very least, reliant on a high level arcane caster being present...
Of course once people get to a certain level, it's assumed people have Fabricate which allows them to handwave the time away.The "problem" I have with Fabricate is that this means that essentially any armor/weaponsmith (or any other of the crafting skills) of any worth, is a wizard/sorcerer. That doesn't really fit with my campaign vision. (Not that that really matters of course.) The spell is of personal use only. The caster has to make the Craft check and therefore must have spent the required skill points, feats etc. to craft the item being created. I would think that MW full plate armor would trigger the Fabricate part about "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship."
That being said, my scenario above (using Diviner's Fortune) becomes much more plausible when used in conjunction with Fabricate. After using Diviner's Fortune you have 3 rounds (more than adequate to cover the 1 round casting time for Fabricate) to create your armor. Seeing as how Fabricate is an instantaneous effect, we have no problems with Diviner's Fortune and Crafting like those mentioned above.
I guess this makes the most sense in a fantasy campaign setting, as the creators of magic armor and weapons are going to be spell casters in the end anyways.
Cheers
If you really want to have a craft monkey, you make an artificer from Eberron. Let them use Fabricate to create items immediately, then have them lock the items in a lab with a dedicated wright homonculus to do the enchantment. While the other wizards are sweating in the lab eight hours a day, the artificer can be out drinking and whoring and still have a spiffy magic item ready at the same time.
Admittedly a wizard can do the same thing, but is limited to the enchantments on the wizard spell list, as opposed to the artificer who can use artificer cheese to make anything.
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If you really want to have a craft monkey, you make an artificer from Eberron. Let them use Fabricate to create items immediately, then have them lock the items in a lab with a dedicated wright homonculus to do the enchantment. While the other wizards are sweating in the lab eight hours a day, the artificer can be out drinking and whoring and still have a spiffy magic item ready at the same time.
Admittedly a wizard can do the same thing, but is limited to the enchantments on the wizard spell list, as opposed to the artificer who can use artificer cheese to make anything.
Have never even looked at Eberron. :)
Is this remotely close to what an armorsmith could have done back in the middle-ages, for the better part of a *whole year* of hard work?!?
As a side note, there is Experts v.3.5 by Skirmisher publishing. Among other things, there is a revised armor creation timeline.
For example, Full Plate takes 80 days, base.
I posted this during the playtest, but didn't get a lot of play on it that I recall. Our group wasn't very happy with how long it took to make anything with crafting and I took a look at it to try to come up with something more reasonable. This is a bit lengthy, since I was rewriting the Craft from the book, and it does use the table in the Beta. Feel free to use or ignore :)
Craft Skill
You are skilled in the creation of a specific group of items, such as armor or weapons, alchemical items or mechanical traps. Like Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, Craft is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Craft skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill.
A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill.
Check: You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the craft’s daily tasks, how to supervise untrained helpers, and how to handle common problems. (Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.)
The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type. The DC depends on the complexity of the item to be created. The DC and your check result determine how long it takes to make a particular item. The item’s finished price also determines the cost of raw materials.
In some cases, the fabricate spell can be used to achieve the results of a Craft check with no actual check involved. You must make an appropriate Craft check, however, when using the spell to make articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
A successful Craft check related to woodworking in conjunction with the casting of the ironwood spell enables you to make wooden items that have the strength of steel.
When casting the spell minor creation, you must succeed on an appropriate Craft check to make a complex item.
All crafts require artisan’s tools to give the best chance of success. If improvised tools are used, the check is made with a –2 penalty. On the other hand, masterwork artisan’s tools provide a +2 circumstance bonus on the check.
To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.
1. Pay one-third of the item’s market price for the cost of raw materials.
2. Find the DC from the table on chart 5-5 Craft Skills.
3. Divide the target DC by 5, and multiply the result by 2 to determine the base time for creation. (i.e., DC 10 / 5 = 2; 2 x 2 = 4, base time equals 4 hours.)
4. Take the base time, and multiply it as follows for crafting type to determine actual time for creation.
- * Alchemy - Use base time.
* Armorsmithing - Multiply the base time by the AC bonus.
* Bowmaking - Multiply the base time as follows: Bows x2; Composite Bows x4; Composite Bows with a strength bonus, multiply base composite bow by the strength bonus +1 (i.e., a Strength +1 Composite Shortbow would take ((Base Time x 4)x2) for actual time, or 48 hours); Ammunition, use base time for bows (i.e., 4 hours) per 5 arrows.
* Weaponsmithing - Multiply the base time by weapon type as follows: Light Melee x2, One-handed Melee x4, Two-Handed Melee x6, Crossbows x6, All Other Ranged x1, Arrowheads and Bolts x1 per five.
* Trapmaking - Base time for mechanical traps, whether room/hall sized, or chest/box sized is one week. (For chest/box sized traps, figure as normal from the Trap Rules, but divide the cost by 10 for market value and raw materials used, not counting poisons needed or magical spells - those costs are as written. All other rules for Traps are as written.)
* Very Simple, Typical, High-Quality, and Complex or Superior Items - Use base time.
5. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s worth of work. If the check succeeds, then you have completed the item in the time determined. (If the check exceeds the target DC, then reduce the time required for that item by 12 minutes per point over the DC.)
If you fail a check by 4 or less, you make no progress this week.
If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again to continue working on the item, or lose all the outlay.
All of the numbers above presume the craftsman has at least one apprentice and a shop with the appropriate gear to aid in the creation of the basic parts that go into making the end product. If the craftsman does not have such aid, double the required time for creation to account for having to make all the subcomponents of the end piece. The GM would have to consider if additional costs for renting a forge or similar crafting station are applicable for the part-time craftsman.
Progress by the Day: You can figure out how many items you make per day in a given week by taking your successes and deducting them from a typical medieval craftsman’s week, approximately 60 hours, less time for meals (two hours per day) and running the actual business (roughly four hours per day).
Rising with the sun, and going to bed with it, allowing time for meals and the actual running of the craftsman’s business (dealing with customers and the more “mundane” transactions of repair work and less adventure oriented gear that the shop deals in) leaves roughly four hours on any given day of the six day week to be working on specific adventuring gear. The GM may allow the craftsman to spend more of the day dedicated toward a particular job, but if more than six hours per day (average) are devoted to a single task(s), then the shop and craftsman will not receive the check for income per week that was detailed above.
(I.e., Blacksmith Owen receives a commission to make a suit of full plate mail for his lord’s son. The job will take Owen 64 hours (DC 18 = 8 hours, Full Plate is a +8 AC, 8 x 8 = 64). Owen, a highly skilled (level 6) and intelligent (Int 12) smith, has a skill roll of +10. The player rolls an 18 on the d20, for a check result of 28. That will reduce the time factor by 2 full hours (12 minutes x 10 = 120 minutes). With 62 hours of work ahead, and wanting to please his lord with a speedy completion of his commission, Owen could choose to spend his entire week, even skimping on his meal times with the GM’s permission, to complete the suit in one week. But he will not be able to do any other work that week, and would not receive his standard check for income for that week. If, however, he wants to keep his business open for other work that week, and the following one, it would take him at least eleven days at six hours per day to complete the suit, or sixteen days at four hours per day. And don’t forget to multiply all by five if the lord wanted that suit to be masterwork!)
Create Masterwork Items: You can make a masterwork item: a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, compute the normal item’s time as detailed above, and then multiply that total by 5. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Make your check rolls as before, deducting time for points above the target DC. Once the time is over, the masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.
Repair Items: Generally, you can repair an item by making checks against the same DC that it took to make the item in the first place. The cost of repairing an item is one-fifth of the item’s price. The time to do repairs would be one to two hours, depending on the degree of damage incurred (GM judgement).
When you use the Craft skill to make a particular sort of item, the DC for checks involving the creation of that item are typically as given on the table below.
Action: Does not apply. Craft checks are made by the day or week (see above).
Try Again: Yes, but each time you miss by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again.
To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment. If you are working in a city, you can buy what you need as part of the raw materials cost to make the item, but alchemical equipment is difficult or impossible to come by in some places. Purchasing and maintaining an alchemist’s lab grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks because you have the perfect tools for the job, but it does not affect the cost of any items made using the skill.
[insert table here]
This is why, in my last campaign, I used a modified form of the Craft Points rules from Unearthed Arcana. It didn't really give me a satisfying feel for how long it took to make things, it did at least give the PCs a chance to make things when they had some down time between adventures.
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I really like your craft system Gamer Girrl... really well thought out, and workable in terms of adventuring downtime.
In your example, a fullplate took about 60 hours. At eight hours per day that's about 8 days... so a masterwork fullplate would take five times that, so about 40 days correct?
Better than the the 40 weeks required by the current craft rules! :)
I really like your craft system Gamer Girrl... really well thought out, and workable in terms of adventuring downtime.
In your example, a fullplate took about 60 hours. At eight hours per day that's about 8 days... so a masterwork fullplate would take five times that, so about 40 days correct?
Better than the the 40 weeks required by the current craft rules! :)
Thank you :)
Yup, 8 days times 5 would make for 40 days.
A minor houserule that we are using in conjunction with crafting is that for items like potions and scrolls we're ignoring the "one per day" rule that is used with magical items. I have a wizard/alchemist in my Crimson Throne campaign, and the thought that something that should only take a few hours to brew by the math still precludes him making more in a day didn't jive.
Thank you :)
Yup, 8 days times 5 would make for 40 days.
A minor houserule that we are using in conjunction with crafting is that for items like potions and scrolls we're ignoring the "one per day" rule that is used with magical items. I have a wizard/alchemist in my Crimson Throne campaign, and the thought that something that should only take a few hours to brew by the math still precludes him making more in a day didn't jive.
I've always done brewing as you are brewing a pot of potions, not a single flask. So, you put in the amount of ingredients you think you can make in a day. If you roll better and show a result that's more than you bought in ingredients, then you just made them faster than you expected. IE: You put in enough ingredients to make 10 potions, but rolled as if you could have made 15, then you made them in around 6 hours instead. If on the other hand, you put in 10 potions worth, and failed your DC roll by 5, then you ruined the pot of potion mix and you didn't make any. If you made your DC, but just, and only made enough in silver pieces to make 7 potions, you get 7 and the rest was wastage because you messed up.
Scrolls, we always did 'take 10' and divide the daily sp by the costs of the scrolls, that's how many you did in the day.