I have a PC who I think is trying to skirt the fact that he has a lower int than wisdom.
For example, as ships navigator, you are supposed to use knowledge(geography) to see if you keep the ship on course. The pc is trying to use "profession(navigator)" because he has a high wisdom.
Should I cry foul. or accept what to me seems to be a way to metagame around the proper rules.
Ideas/suggestions?
Thanks,
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I have a PC who I think is trying to skirt the fact that he has a lower int than wisdom.
For example, as ships navigator, you are supposed to use knowledge(geography) to see if you keep the ship on course. The pc is trying to use "profession(navigator)" because he has a high wisdom.
Should I cry foul. or accept what to me seems to be a way to metagame around the proper rules.
Ideas/suggestions?
Thanks,
I'd allow it but set a higher DC.
To me, this seems ok. The player has chosen to invest skill points in a specific skill in order to be better at the task of navigation than one of his statistics would normally allow, and it's a skill that makes sense in the example that you gave. Also, it's not something that is going to affect multiple areas of your game as the skill is constrained to a narrow number of tasks.
Note: I'm assuming that he has invested skill points in it, as Profession can only be used when trained, unless you've house-ruled that.
CR
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well I've always used Profession to 'substitute' for a plethora of skills in a specific situation.
Profession (navigator) will be fine on the boat. But won't replace Knowlege (geography) in a merchant caravan for example.
Profession (fisher) will sub for survival checks to gather food from a lake, but not in the woods or the desert.
Or my favourite example. Profession (Gambler) will cover spot, sense motive, bluff and intimidate at the poker table, but won't do jack when talking to the town guard.
Actually, in the cited example, your PC is actually quite right. Knowledge Geography is just that, knowledge of geography. If you threw a map of the world down in front of a max rank Geography expert, you could name almost any tiny little town and he could point it out in moments, often without looking at the map.
Take him outside and tell him to take you across the ocean to the coastal city of Blahblah, and he will give you a look and say "Do I look like a navigator?"
Meanwhile, the navigator can plot a course around currents, dead calms, hidden reefs, and otherwise pick out the fastest, safest course to get you there. If you ask him "Can you take me to Blahblah on the other side of the ocean?" he may reply "I don't know where this Blahblah is, but you give me a decent map, and I can get you there."
Most people who ply the trade of navigation would have enough ranks of geography to get a nice synergy bonus, and so they don't have to ask their clients where the destination is. But the two skills are actually separate enough that the distinction between them is warranted. Synergy bonuses would come from a cohesive knowledge of the geography of an area allowing for better planning of a course. "Between here and Blahblah is the Whatchamicallit, which could slow us down a lot, better to head east and avoid it entirely."
Consider this: When someone gives you their address, can you drive straight to their house from where you are, regardless of where that is? Then you are a good navigator. Me, I need to look up a Yahoo Map line from my location to the address to get anywhere.
Short Version:
Knowledge Geography: Knows where stuff is.
Profession Navigator: Knows how to get there.
Actually, in the cited example, your PC is
Short Version:
Knowledge Geography: Knows where stuff is.
Profession Navigator: Knows how to get there, GIVEN A MAP.
Emphasis added. Interesting, of course, and I got this mechanic for resolving navigation of ships from the STAP. SO, having profession navigator would imply knowledge of navigation by sun, dead reckoning, stars, etc. But there is some overlap with Survival then, which is what you use to avoid getting lost. You'd allow both checks, profession navigator AND survival?
Multiple checks are part of the game. There are always ways for different characters with different skill sets to approach any problem. The character with Survival will figure out what looks like a safe course, the character with Profession Navigator will likewise navigate based on charts and previous experience, and even the wizard with nothing but Knowledge Arcana will say, "Okay, well, I can at least chart a horoscope, so I know a little astronomy, and that's the pole star over there, so why don't we head towards that?"
Of course the last course may run into reefs, rip tides and whatnot, but at least it is a logical and in-the-skill way for finding a direction.
There are always ways for different characters with different skill sets to approach any problem.
Exactly. I generally try to encourage skill use which often translates as allowing some 'out of the box' thinking.
here's a question: is his bonus to wisdom 10 points higher than his intelligence, or is it only a marginal difference? Because 1-4 points quite honestly doesn't matter very much in the long run, and if your player enjoys it and it isn't game-breaking then it should make even less of a difference.
It's 4. But over time it will get bigger, as he is a Cleric. I'll let it slide for now, or I could just bump the DCs by the difference between his wis and int mods. <snicker>
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I agree completely with Kevin. The utilization of a profession skill would be a totally valid way for the character to approach the problem. Especially if the player gives some input into how the character is handling it... (i.e. not just saying "My Prof is better than Know, so I'll use that). And if he isn't giving input, ask for some. It's well within your rights to raise or subtract the DC based on the circumstance of the roll, but the way you make it sound it's punative against suspected min/max-ing.
Short Version:
Knowledge Geography: Knows where stuff is.
Profession Navigator: Knows how to get there.
My emphasis would be:
Knowledge Geography: Knows where stuff is, what it's like there, and whyProfession Sailor/Navigator: Knows what it takes to get a ship there
I would not increase his DCs as long as getting the ship there is involved. That's just unnecessary punishment, even if is wisdom does climb well above his intelligence. You just have to remember that his understanding is limited to practical ship operations. He probably has a good sense of dead reckoning, knows appropriate landmarks, understand how the tides with affect the ship. And can't substitute for hard core understanding of geographic details, climatology, or exactly where something is relative to where he is as the crow flies, and so on.
There's little harm in letting skills overlap that way, especially when the skills are poorly-defined Profession skills. Consider the following:
Knowledge (geography): "We'll need a solid crew, but I know the route."
Profession (navigator): "I'll need some decent charts, but I'll get us there."
Profession (bosun): "I've sailed this route a dozen times: I know where we can find a skilled Faresian pilot to guide us around the shoals near Far Harbor"
Gather Information: "The crew says that only a fool would take the northern route this late in the season."
Knowledge (local: Central Sea): The northern part of the sea grows stormier the longer we wait, but most ships hire Faresian pilots for the last leg.
Knowledge (local: Central Sea): The northern part of the sea grows stormier the longer we wait, but most ships hire Faresian pilots for the last leg.
Eh kind of. Knowledge (geography or nature) would tell you the same thing about the weather. Geography for climatic changes, Nature for actual storm composition and danger. The last part about Faresian pilots is very much within Knowledge (local). As an aside Knowledge (local) does not break down into sub-region skills. Apply a bonus or penalty if you want based on the characters overall familiarity with the area, but don't make sub-sub-skill where they don't belong.
I do agree, as a geographer, that Knowledge (geography) would best be used in planning the quickest/safest route(including making use of currents and wind patterns). Profession (Navigator), or Survival in a pinch, will keep you on course.
As an aside Knowledge (local) does not break down into sub-region skills. Apply a bonus or penalty if you want based on the characters overall familiarity with the area, but don't make sub-sub-skill where they don't belong.
[threadjack] That's how they do it in the Realms (3e, at least). I prefer it that way. I'm not a fan of taking Knowledge (local) and suddenly knowing all these little details everywhere you go. Perhaps everyone in Smallville knows the chielf alderman's daughter gets around; but it hardly seems like something that you would just stroll into the town and know if you're not a local. I also find it hard to explain away as being someone's "field of expertise" because it makes me wonder who bothers writing books about this kind of stuff? Even in today's world of literacy and the mass and easy production of printed media, you'll be hard pressed to find anything of that sort, what amounts to basically gossip, in a book.
The example of knowing something which helps go about crossing the Central Sea is better; but even that bothers me because the skill, per the RAW, lets you know little things like this about everywhere simultaneously. It seems far more plausible to me to break it down into regions.
That being said, I agree that it creates a set of sub-subskills. The ultimate effect is to make Knowledge (local) even less useful than it already is, because your skill investment only helps you within a certain geographical boundary. I don't believe any other skill is limited in that way, and if there's much travel in a campaign at all, it can render that particular investment in the character useless.
So, my solution is to redefine Knowledge (local) entirely. I lied above; breaking it down into regions isn't really my preferred method. I like to treat it as Knowledge (cultural). It will let the character know what the customs of this people or that people, one race or another, are. The higher the check, the more specific the character's knowledge. For example, if the party is facing gnolls, Knowledge (local) might reveal, on a very low check, something about savage demihumans in general; something specific to gnolls on a moderate check; and the rituals specific to this tribe on a very high check. I find it far more likely that people write about such things, and thus that there is material available to study and learn from. If you want to know about the lord mayor's daughter, use Gather Information.
[/threadjack]
It sounds like this thread is skirting one of my sacred rules (and a good rule in general) which is "Don't punish creative use of skills."
There's a difference between creative and abusive, of course, but I find that players really flourish in an environment where there isn't one set answer to a problem. You can climb over a wall, but why not use "Knowledge (Engineering)" to figure out which bricks you can remove to make a small hole. Bluff or intimidate may get you past the town guards, but so can "Profession (Lawyer)" and a bit of good roleplaying.
My players think very differently than I do. If one of them took the time to flesh out his or her character with a Profession skill, such as Navigator, I'd love to reward that by making it useful to the story and otherwise engaging. Waiting for them to use the one skill I expect, or hire someone who can, is a game-killer.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I wouldn't think twice about letting the PC use Profession (navigator) to make this type of roll. In fact, without looking at the books, if someone asked me what the best skill to use to make sure you're not lost, I'd probably call for a Profession (navigator) check before I'd call for a Knowledge (geography) check.
If the question was "I want to try to find the shortcut through the Devil's Teeth in order to cut off the pirates on the other side of the bay, I might go for Knowledge (geography), but really if the player can justify it I'd be inclined to reward him for trying to use skills in the game period.
Emphasis added. Interesting, of course, and I got this mechanic for resolving navigation of ships from the STAP. SO, having profession navigator would imply knowledge of navigation by sun, dead reckoning, stars, etc. But there is some overlap with Survival then, which is what you use to avoid getting lost. You'd allow both checks, profession navigator AND survival?Actually, in the cited example, your PC is
Short Version:
Knowledge Geography: Knows where stuff is.
Profession Navigator: Knows how to get there, GIVEN A MAP.
Assuming the Navigation check was failed so badly as to put them on a potential miscourse, and thus invoke the "prevent getting lost" aspect of survival, yes, I would allow it. That specific survival check use has a very undefined occurance rate, specifically, "when the situation calls for it". Charting a course to a location so badly that you have failed by more than five definitely means you have a chance to get lost, as opposed to just arrive several miles off from your location but realize your mistake and correct it. You could easily put yourself deeper out to sea, or arrive on an entirely wrong landmass. You could easily "become lost" so the survival check I would allow after perhaps a small portion of the journey (10% or so) to realize that something is wrong.
I have a player that took Profession (Counseling) as a skill, mainly so that he could be a wise old man that resolved conflicts around Sandpoint in between adventures, but whenever that character came across mentally troubled people, I generally allowed him to use that skill instead of other social skills to interact with them, and made the DC actually a bit easier.
There aren't that many cases where a mentally troubled character will be talking with the PCs without already being hostile, so I figured in those cases where it does happen, why not facilitate it and reward the player for taking a skill that was mainly for RP purposes.
One of my characters took Profession (mercenary) in a game that involved a number of Imperial Legionnaires. While he suffered some penalties for choosing the skill [as opposed to Profession (legionary) or Profession (soldier)], the roleplaying aspects were great.
"You served with that mercenary scum?"
I'd be fine with letting a player do this, though if I think he might be abusing it I'd set the DC's so high that he could only pass if he actually put ranks in the skill.
Hm... let me take a guess here: He doesn't have any ranks in knowledge or profession, right?
Hm... let me take a guess here: He doesn't have any ranks in knowledge or profession, right?
No knowledge, just profession(navigator).