What's good solution to resolve the multiclassing problem?
From the thread « multiclassing rule »,Open Comment,Beta-playtest,i wrote:
« In AD&D1st &2nd,I played with tri-class FIGHTER/WIZARD/THIEF(6/6/7) and i stopped to play with because in 3/3.5 it's a 19th level!!!!
The monsters above 15th lvl are immunize to fireball of 6d6 damage,my better save DC of my spells is 15.My thief 's features are useless.
It's like i played with 3PC of 6th level in a 19th party! »My players don't want play multicass with 3.5 rule.
TO be honest, this is exactly what you would expect if someone tried to be good at everything, they'd suck at everything. Your fighter is sacrificing 13 levels of fighter for those arcane and thief abilities, and he's sacrificing his armor. The wizard is sacrificing his advanced studies and 13 levels of wizard to get those fighter feats and thief abilities. Your rogue is sacrificing 12 levels of expertise for magical training and extra feats and hps. You've compounded the issue by choosing 3 classes that are extremely bad to multiclass as. You lose the fighters armor, the wizard's big spells, and the rogue's big sneak attack bonus. I can't see how you expected anything other than he would be outclassed by anyone else in a straight up fight. He's got more options, but they are all weak options. You can fix some of that with the right feats.
Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane) would raise your wizards caster level to 10 (which would help).
Armored Mage alternative class feature for fighters would help as you could then cast wizard spells in armor without spell failure. (Complete Mage)
These two options would at least get you some armor and magic. Additionally, you could take Medium Armor Proficiency and Battle Caster feats to wear medium armor and cast without spell failure. Improved Toughness to boost your hitpoints to make up for the low hitpoints you get as a wizard. Then you'll want to pick your equipment carefully to maximize your character's options.
My solution is back toAD&D multiclassing rule.Yes,it's not compatible with 3.5 edition,but with few arrengement,it's possible.
-XP divided by number of base class (lvl 1-20)(or -20% bi-class;-40% tri-class?),same level in all base classes
-Best of BAB, Saving throws
-Average HP
-Best of skill points (+ x 0.5 other class skill points?)Prestige classes use the single class rule and progression(not divise XP) and stack with multiclass level.
(Ex: F6/R6 is a bi-class play in 6th level party, and F6/R6/Assassin6 is a bi-class 6 with 6 lvl prestige class and play in 12 lvl party.)So,with this solution my F/W/T is ECL= 6 lvl (perhaps 1lvl in shadowdancer PrC for T7 and become an adventurer ECL=7 lvl) and play in 6th(or7th) level party.
Thougths?Other idea?
Perhaps an official answer?What's PF RPG multiclassing rule?
What are looking for is Gestalt characters, from Unearthed Arcana. However, those are WAY too powerful, and no-one will be able to compete without multiclassing.
Honestly, you're opening up a can of powergaming worms, IMHO.
I though of allowing gestalt but with an xp shift on the chart over one.
« In AD&D1st &2nd,I played with tri-class FIGHTER/WIZARD/THIEF(6/6/7) and i stopped to play with because in 3/3.5 it's a 19th level!!!!
The monsters above 15th lvl are immunize to fireball of 6d6 damage,my better save DC of my spells is 15.My thief 's features are useless.
It's like i played with 3PC of 6th level in a 19th party! »
Ok first off I do understand your issue. I had two character from 1st ed get butchered in the conversion to 3.X. One a Cleric/Assassin one a Fighter/Mage. The Cleric 15/ Assassin 9 (he gave up training as an assassin when his aligment changed) became a Cleric 15/Barbarian 3 (although he was LG by this point so no rage), because the character was a half-orc and anything else would kill his XP but it destroyed his back story, he was from a large civialized city and all(also started as LE and slowly shifted to LN and then finally through divine intervention to LG so clearly he never could have been a barbarian). The Fighter 9/Mage 10 as you say would be a poor mage and a poor fighter, with little good being gained from the classes thanks to not being able to cast in armor and all so I honestly never converted him.
Ok that all said you can find a way to make it work using prestige classes sometimes. Take your fighter/mage/thief. First Bard can cover nearly all of that by himself, so my thought is just go bard and be done with it. Second go spellflitcher, sure that drops the fighter class but it really mixes mage/thief well. Or go eldrich knight, that can work too though not really perfect, your ability to cast in armor is still really low the two feats you can take to help don't do nearly enough but what can I say they fear tank mages. Which even in first ed weren't a big deal. A Fighter/Mage in first end had poor hit points, and was on average a level or two behind his party. A tri class guy was 2 or even three levels behind.
Redo'ing my Cleric/Assassin in pathfinder I would go Cleric/Fighter no XP penalty though not prefered class thing either I can live with that. Rogue never fit, the guy was not a thief type but more of a fighter with stealth which you can do in Pathfinder very easily given a decent intelligence which the guy has.
The much more friendly skill list is a big deal to me and it helps make conversions make more sense then 3.X did.
For your Fighter/Mage/Thief I would simply go Bard (maybe a rogue level or two for trap finding, but then I would make trap finding a feat and that would remove the need for you to even multiclass a little).
As mdt pointed out, you're essentially talking about Gestalt (with up to three classes). I certainly don't want that in core rules, however there are some interesting points to be made.
First, Pathfinder improves all the regular options quite a bit.
No cross-class skills (+ consolidation) means your most important Rogue skills can be kept high (particularly with Wizard intelligence). Just the two points from fighter could be used to keep Stealth and Perception maxed.
Base attack bonus stacks like it always has, the rogue levels could be used to take combat related talents, and a fighter/wizard's ability to cast Strength or Invisibility or Haste on himself has always been powerful.
And a Fighter1/Rogue3/Wizard5 could tack on Eldritch Knight6/Arcane Trickster4 and (at 19th level) have 14th level casting, +14 BAB, +4d6 sneak attack (vs. 7th level casting, +13 BAB, +3d6 sneak attack for 6/6/7).
Second, Gestalt *does* work very well with Pathfinder's XP system.
That's a bit harsher (about twice the drop) as 1st edition, but really, it should be. Multiclass characters (prior to 12th+level) were almost always quite a bit stronger in 1st edition. And you should probably go ahead and give the best hit die.
I was thinking for the "bi-classed" you could place a limit on how many of HD, BAB, Saves, Skills could be better (or steps better, or better by more than one step). Say.. Cleric vs. Cleric/Rogue - BAB/HD same, Saves 1 is better, skills are 3 steps better - total of 4. Wiz vs. Ftr/Wiz - BAB 2 better, HD 3 better, Saves 1 better, no skill increase - total of 6 (though Ftr to Ftr/Wiz is only 1 better (will save) so not sure how well this works really). Perhaps always start with the spellcaster? enh.
As for:
Perhaps an official answer?What's PF RPG multiclassing rule?
That was not in the Beta, nor anything posted. So we may get a surprise come August.
Good luck with whatever you do.
« In AD&D1st &2nd,I played with tri-class FIGHTER/WIZARD/THIEF(6/6/7) and i stopped to play with because in 3/3.5 it's a 19th level!!!!
The monsters above 15th lvl are immunize to fireball of 6d6 damage,my better save DC of my spells is 15.My thief 's features are useless.
It's like i played with 3PC of 6th level in a 19th party! »
3.5 multiclassing words well for classes with mostly similar features, who perform mostly similar functions in a group. It breaks down when you try to multiclass with classes that have wildly different features and different roles within the party. It breaks down even more when one of the classes is a primary spellcaster, for that class gives up an awful lot of high-level spell power to get the low-level abilities of the second class.
My solution is back toAD&D multiclassing rule.Yes,it's not compatible with 3.5 edition,but with few arrengement,it's possible.
-XP divided by number of base class (lvl 1-20)(or -20% bi-class;-40% tri-class?),same level in all base classes
-Best of BAB, Saving throws
-Average HP
-Best of skill points (+ x 0.5 other class skill points?)
If you divide the XP by number of classes, the dual-class character will remain 2 levels behind his single-classed companions. That's probably fair (it would take playtesting to be sure).
If you merely penalize 20%, then the dual-classed character would be the same level as his companions about half the time, and he would be a level behind the other half the time. That's probably not enough of a balancing factor.
Consider, a fighter 10 has BAB 10, 7/3/3 Saves, about 60 HP (plus CON mod), 11 feats, 20 skill points, Bravery, Armor Training, and Weapon Training. That's about it.
A 10/10 fighter/rogue has BAB 10, 7/7/3 Saves, about 55 HP (averaged), 15 feats, 80 skill points, Bravery, Armor Training, Weapon Training, Sneak Attack 5d6, Trapfinding, Evasion, Trap Sense +3, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Bleeding Attack, and Improved Evasion. (I converted 4 rogue talents to feats).
That's a ton of extra firepower. Better saves, 4 extra feats, 5d6 of sneak attack with fighter BAB and weapon training so sneak attacks will hardly ever miss and can inflict nasty bleeding wounds, Evasion and Improved Evasion to effectively negate evocation magic, and never flatfooted or flanked. And all it costs him is 5 HP?
If you have a party of players, and one player has that fighter, and the other player has the fighter/rogue, and they are the same level, don't you think the guy who has a single-classed fighter will feel like this is rather unfair?
Prestige classes use the single class rule and progression(not divise XP) and stack with multiclass level.
(Ex: F6/R6 is a bi-class play in 6th level party, and F6/R6/Assassin6 is a bi-class 6 with 6 lvl prestige class and play in 12 lvl party.)
No way. It's too much. To say "F6/R6 is a bi-class play in 6th level party" is too much (see my example of the 10th level fighter/rogue above).
An F6/R6 should play in an 8th level party, probably, or anyone in that party with a single-classed fighter or single-classed rogue will be seriously oversadowed by the dual-glass guy, and even other single-classes will feel like the dual-glass character is far more powerful than they are.
And the F6/R6/Assassin6 would play in a 14th level party, probably, for the same reason.
So,with this solution my F/W/T is ECL= 6 lvl
No way. It's even more too much.
Take your own advice and divide his XP by the number of classes, meaning that for his own career this F/W/T has been dividing his XP by 3.
Let's say this character has earned 60,000 XP, divided by 3 he has 20,000 actual XP, making him 6th level in all 3 of his classes. His friend is a Cleric/Sorcerer who has divided her XP by 2 and has 30,000 real XP and is 7/7 level. And his other friend is a Paladin who has not divided his 60,000 XP because he is single-classed and so he is 9th level.
Those three characters are probably all roughly equal in power, and all roughly viable as CR9 characters, ECL = 9.
Or something like that. Playtesting needed.
The trouble I see is trying to incorporate this with 3.0s free form multiclassing. It seems that once you pick to Dual or Triple class at 1st level you can't ever leave it or pick up new class (prestige). There would also seem to be an ECL restriction on starting play. Like with monster races you couldn't begin your carrier at 1st level as a Dual Classed Fighter 1/Wizard 1.
The trouble I see is trying to incorporate this with 3.0s free form multiclassing. It seems that once you pick to Dual or Triple class at 1st level you can't ever leave it or pick up new class (prestige). There would also seem to be an ECL restriction on starting play. Like with monster races you couldn't begin your carrier at 1st level as a Dual Classed Fighter 1/Wizard 1.
I suppose, in keeping with the OP's idea, we could treat his version of multiclassing on a level by level basis.
At level 1 we're just a fighter, so we dont' divide our XP and we get only the fighter class features.
Then at level 2 we decide to gain levels in fighter/rogue, so we divide our XP by 2 and we get both sets of class features, for just this level (2nd level fighter and first level rogue).
Then at level 3 we decide to go just rogue this time, so for this level, we don't divide the XP, and we get just the class features of a 2nd level rogue.
And so on.
But wow, that sure would be confusing to keep track of the XP and how it was allocated, as well as the class abilities.
In my example, we've created a fighter2/rogue2 in just 3 levels, and he has only the HP of a 3rd level character, and his saves are very weird since at level 2 he took the best of fighter 2 and rogue 1 saves. And you would almost have to track two different XP totals, one for the XP earned and one for the "real" XP allocated.
It would get real messy real fast.
And it might be subject to a bit of munchkin abuse, if someone took the time to figure out the math and only do the multiclass thing on levels when their main class gets crappy save bonuses, for example.
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Your 3.x D&D bag is like a toolbox and several supplements and materials provide a number of tools. Unearthed Arcana is a powerful example of a number of different and useful options to add to the game to ease certain restrictions you find in your game.
Magic Rating (Unearthed Arcana)
You can use what is in UA or come up with something of your own. Basically multi-classed casters are not completely boned for taking classes in non-caster classes as all classes provide a caster level fraction that add up. This is used either as an alternative to the Practiced Spellcaster feat or in conjunction if you wish.
So a Fighter 4/Rogue 4/Wizard 5 will have access to 3rd level spells but will be able to cast the spells they have access to as a 7th Level Caster. Combined with the Practiced Spellcaster for an additional +4 caster level up to combined character level = 11th caster level for your multi-classed character. So this 13th level character will be able to cast their 10d6 Fireball or their x3 Scorching Rays. Not exactly the same power as casting a 7th level spell but they have other abilities to draw upon from their other class levels. Wearing heavy armors via the battle caster feats in Pathfinder, weapon focus: ray spells, Evasion, trapfinding, casting invisibility and gaining an extra +2d6 sneak attack on a scorching ray, and so on.
Or perhaps this character focuses on fighting in melee wit ha weapon and touch attacks while wearing armor. Shocking Grasp for 5d6 +2d6 Sneak Attack while flanking combined with arcane strike, weapon focus, and weapon specialization feats.
All combined you can generate a unique and for the most part a viable character.