My God that's nerdy.
Uhh...oh.
I liked it...
My God that's nerdy.Uhh...oh.
I liked it...
I it!
On the "3 Protean types only?" issue, I'll admit my 1st thought was, why so few? But I like Todd's analogy explaining the 3. And there's nothing to say there can't be other iconic Maelstrom races.
I think the problem for us who've played D&D so long is that the Outsider races have traditionally had a level sweep to accommodate lowest level play (Lemures, Dretches, et al) to highest level (Pit Fiends, Type VI Demons, et al). When we're presented w/ a new alignment-based race, we expect the same. But there's no reason that need hold true. Heck, it makes sense in a way that the chaotic nature of the Maelstrom defies the "normal" level breakdowns imposed on their counterparts in the Outer Sphere. Really, those lowest-to-highest level Outsider opponents only make sense in a metagaming way anyway; is it a divine law that 1st level adventurers must have a reasonably fair challenge no matter where in the cosmos they find themselves? Probably not.
On the "3 Protean types only?" issue, I'll admit my 1st thought was, why so few? But I like Todd's analogy explaining the 3. And there's nothing to say there can't be other iconic Maelstrom races.
I think the problem for us who've played D&D so long is that the Outsider races have traditionally had a level sweep to accommodate lowest level play (Lemures, Dretches, et al) to highest level (Pit Fiends, Type VI Demons, et al). When we're presented w/ a new alignment-based race, we expect the same. But there's no reason that need hold true. Heck, it makes sense in a way that the chaotic nature of the Maelstrom defies the "normal" level breakdowns imposed on their counterparts in the Outer Sphere. Really, those lowest-to-highest level Outsider opponents only make sense in a metagaming way anyway; is it a divine law that 1st level adventurers must have a reasonably fair challenge no matter where in the cosmos they find themselves? Probably not.
For better or for worse, that metagame level spread wasn't a consideration in my mind when I was coming up with ideas for the various outsider races.
Also, I'd be open to expanding the proteans with subtypes or clines of the keketar/imentesh/naunet types. It's certainly possible that members of one of those types might be different in some way if they're members of a specific chorus. And of course, the Maelstrom is truly infinite, and who knows what might bubble to the surface.
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I personally like the idea that there isn't an outsider for every level. I like the concept that outsiders are something that a 1st level character probably shouldn't understand and should be worried about tangling with.
Upon reading what I have of The Great Beyond, so far, my reaction is, "Awesome. The planes are finally alien worlds, again." Todd's assertion in the book that the planes are not merely other physical worlds, but actual manifestations of metaphysical concepts, reinforces the notion that the planes aren't supposed to "make sense" to the average visitor from the Material Plane. I think that was a notion that got lost over the years of Planescape. (No offense intended to those who love the setting. I just felt that it made the planes too "normal" for the kinds of stories I enjoyed.)
Todd's formulation of the multiverse ties directly into my interpretation of Pathfinder: the setting has been designed so that the PCs are supposed to become the most powerful characters in the story. (I think that James Jacobs has said something like this in the past, and there is supporting evidence in the fact that you don't see many NPCs described in the setting as being higher than level 12.)
While there may be examples of plane-traveling wizards and other heroes in Golarion's history, in the "modern" story of the campaign, I envision planar travel as being uncommon at best until the heroes gain the power to do so. The extent of planar lore has been provided by the sages of history, including some Pathfinders, leaving lots of room for error or simple change (perhaps with the exception of Axis) since the last explorers traveled outside of the Material Plane.
In my campaigns, I've tried to mesh the idea of outsiders as monsters with the mythological concept of outsiders as unknown "entities". Most people "know" about demons, but only the concept of demons that can't be seen, yet influence mortals to commit sin. Within the metagame, this conception needs to match up with demons in flesh that can be slain by hero with a sword. If the planes are too "real" for the average inhabitant of Golarion, then the duality creates problems.
Anyway, I'm rambling, but I love what Todd has done with this book, so I thought I'd share my own ideas on the topic, however poorly articulated they may be at the moment. ;-)
Ok, finished a first pass reading last night. This book is really 9 flavors of awesome, no matter how you slice it. I've always been fascinated by the "big picture" stuff in D&D, and it doesn't get bigger than this.
Todd had in some way the unenviable task of replacing the Great Wheel which, while not universally beloved, has some hardcore fans attached to it (including me). What I like about the Great Beyond is that, much like Paizo's Campaign Setting, there are enough respectful nods to the original source material (e.g., for Golarion, nods to Greyhawk) while at the same time plenty of new slants on the subject matter. Plus tons of new goodies.
Also, the fact that he references things that never might "officially" be explained--again the Paizo model w/ the Campaign Setting (e.g., Aroden's death)--leaves it up to the imagination of all the various DM's out there to play w/ these things w/out worrying overmuch about canon coming in later to give them a sharp kick to the groin.
Finally, I just like the way Todd describes things. Very evocative language, and since this is a game that largely takes place in the realm of the imagination, I find his work really spices things up for me. Much like an awesome piece of art for a monster can do.
So, what's with the astrodaemon's energy drain? Should they have it? Is this a relict from a previous draft? Because it doesn't have a entry giving the numbers of levels lost and the save DC to remove them.
So, what's with the astrodaemon's energy drain? Should they have it? Is this a relict from a previous draft? Because it doesn't have a entry giving the numbers of levels lost and the save DC to remove them.
It's supposed to be there as far as the original draft goes, but the original energy drain was listed as a distinct named ability of Corrupting Touch (which probably took up too much room to be honest). As originally written before development/editing, it was one negative level per hit, Fort save negates.
So, what's with the astrodaemon's energy drain? Should they have it? Is this a relict from a previous draft? Because it doesn't have a entry giving the numbers of levels lost and the save DC to remove them.
When in doubt, assume the number is the minimum (1).
Most save DCs are 10 + 1/2 monster's HD + monster's Cha mod or Con mod.
I have just began my reading of TGB and have finished the Inner Planes. One thing I found missing in the plane of fire was the salamander. These are open material, correct? Why didn't they make the cut on the plane of fire? I might be missing something.
Creative Director
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I have just began my reading of TGB and have finished the Inner Planes. One thing I found missing in the plane of fire was the salamander. These are open material, correct? Why didn't they make the cut on the plane of fire? I might be missing something.
They're open content. We just didn't have room to put everything in the book. There are certainly salamanders on the Plane of Fire, but we chose to talk about other stuff instead.
They're open content. We just didn't have room to put everything in the book. There are certainly salamanders on the Plane of Fire, but we chose to talk about other stuff instead.
Thanks for the clarification. I have been a fan of the Salamanders since first edition and hoped they were still around in Pathfinder.
What James said. The elemental planes had a smaller word count each than the planes of the Outer Sphere, and so I could only focus on the Efreet, and given a choice between various other OGL fire based creatures, I gave space to fire mephits, because mephits need love too, and I adore mephits. Salamanders are there, as well as magmin, azers, and others, but I simply couldn't go into detail on them in the space I had. That said, I'd love to see them revisited at some point, because it'd be a fun topic.
Salamanders in one of the "Revisited, etc" line would be really awesome. I'd love to do anything remotely like that. Wink Wink Hint Hint ;)
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What James said. The elemental planes had a smaller word count each than the planes of the Outer Sphere, and so I could only focus on the Efreet, and given a choice between various other OGL fire based creatures, I gave space to fire mephits, because mephits need love too, and I adore mephits. Salamanders are there, as well as magmin, azers, and others, but I simply couldn't go into detail on them in the space I had. That said, I'd love to see them revisited at some point, because it'd be a fun topic.
Salamanders in one of the "Revisited, etc" line would be really awesome. I'd love to do anything remotely like that. Wink Wink Hint Hint ;)
Elemental Denizens Revisited?
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Since the Yuan-Ti are no longer available the Salamanders have sort of filled that roll for me. And I LOVE elementals, much more than demons and devils.
Demons and devils are so over done for me. But the elemental races have so much to give and explore and there is so much room for new elemental races.
BTW my ONLY complaint about Great Beyond (picked up at the store today)... too darn short! At least 10 times as large! It's the GREAT Beyond, not the Not Enough Wordspace Beyond!
Next time, James, when Todd is writing about the Great Beyond or something just tell him there is no word limit and to go crazy!
Since the Yuan-Ti are no longer available the Salamanders have sort of filled that roll for me.
They don't really fit if you ask me.
Plus, there's serpendfolk (I'm sure those will show up in the bestiary)
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Despite owning the FR supplement "Serpent Kingdoms," I've never cared for Yuan-Ti anyways. I think they are rather moronic as villains if you ask me...
"Oh! the bad serpent people are infiltrating our country and putting agents at various levels of power... blah blah blah"
Isn't that the official line for "ANY" monster of average intelligence or higher???
Plus, come winter, there: no more yuan-ti. The cold blooded bastards fall to the ground and start hibernating. Or die.
Also, I'd be open to expanding the proteans with subtypes or clines of the keketar/imentesh/naunet types.
As the local expert on planes, what do you think of this:
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Okay, this thread's rapidly aging, but I'm going to post to it anyway and see if I can't get an answer. I see that under the description of the Archons (pg 37) it says "Unlike the other good-aligned planes of Nirvana and Elysium, only a single race of celestials populates Heaven: the archons." Looking over the section on Nirvana I see that there are, indeed, two celestial races covered there, the agathions and the angels. But under Elysium I only see one race of celestials mentioned, the azatas. The only other creature listed there are the Titans, and it calls them refugees from another, unknown plane. So are the Titans Elysium's second celestial race or does Elysium only sport a single race as well?
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The only other creature listed there are the Titans, and it calls them refugees from another, unknown plane. So are the Titans Elysium's second celestial race or does Elysium only sport a single race as well?
I'd reckon they would be the most likely candidates.
Though I could have sworn angels were trucking through all three of the Upper Planes.
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Okay, this thread's rapidly aging, but I'm going to post to it anyway and see if I can't get an answer. I see that under the description of the Archons (pg 37) it says "Unlike the other good-aligned planes of Nirvana and Elysium, only a single race of celestials populates Heaven: the archons." Looking over the section on Nirvana I see that there are, indeed, two celestial races covered there, the agathions and the angels. But under Elysium I only see one race of celestials mentioned, the azatas. The only other creature listed there are the Titans, and it calls them refugees from another, unknown plane. So are the Titans Elysium's second celestial race or does Elysium only sport a single race as well?
Angels. See p. 320 of the Bestiary.
Also, I would say that "only a single race of celestials" line is wrong about Heaven.
Angels. See p. 320 of the Bestiary.Also, I would say that "only a single race of celestials" line is wrong about Heaven.
The flavor text in the Bestiary isn't Golarion specific and tries in some cases to keep to the flavor in 3.5. Unless it gets changed later in something specific to Golarion, Heaven's only native celestials are indeed the archons.
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Creative Director
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Titans are not a celestial race. Their alignments are not always good.
Angels are an unusual case. To a certain extent, they deliberately break up the "balance" of power, by not only disrupting the even spread of celestial races across the good planes, but by not having a direct analogue among the fiends. This is deliberate, because symmetry is kind of boring.
Okay, this thread's rapidly aging, but I'm going to post to it anyway and see if I can't get an answer. I see that under the description of the Archons (pg 37) it says "Unlike the other good-aligned planes of Nirvana and Elysium, only a single race of celestials populates Heaven: the archons." Looking over the section on Nirvana I see that there are, indeed, two celestial races covered there, the agathions and the angels. But under Elysium I only see one race of celestials mentioned, the azatas. The only other creature listed there are the Titans, and it calls them refugees from another, unknown plane. So are the Titans Elysium's second celestial race or does Elysium only sport a single race as well?
Originally I had the azata and the lillends as distinct races, and the flavor text in that one line about Heaven reflects that. That got revised however, and they're now a subset of azata (and for the record, I'm perfectly cool with that). :)
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The flavor text in the Bestiary isn't Golarion specific and tries in some cases to keep to the flavor in 3.5. Unless it gets changed later in something specific to Golarion, Heaven's only native celestials are indeed the archons.
You also established the "Peacock Angel" as a (former) resident of Heaven...so you're saying the Peacock Angel was technically an archon, not an angel; and, angels exist in the Outer Sphere, just not in Heaven...
You also established the "Peacock Angel" as a (former) resident of Heaven...so you're saying the Peacock Angel was technically an archon, not an angel; and, angels exist in the Outer Sphere, just not in Heaven...
That was certainly the implication of where the Peacock Spirit originated. Melek Taus aka the Peacock Angel was very much an archon however, not an angel despite the title descriptor.
So, then, it it should read like this: Nirvana: agathions and angels; Elysium: azatas and angels; Heaven: archons and angels. That right?
So, then, it it should read like this: Nirvana: agathions and angels; Elysium: azatas and angels; Heaven: archons and angels. That right?
Nirvana: agathions and angels; Elysium: azatas; Heaven: archons.
That way.
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That said, of course... if there are ANY outsider races who might drift into serving other planes, that award would go first to the angels.
I doubt we'll ever have a demon from Hell or an archon from Elysium, but I wouldn't be surprised to see an angel from Heaven or Elysium some day. They're really a strange case when it comes to assigning races to the planes, and they don't really fit the "one race per plane" paradigm at all. They certainly don't have a counterpart among the evil planes, which further sets them apart.
Nirvana: agathions and angels; Elysium: azatas; Heaven: archons.
It seems to me that the angels were meant to be universal to both Nirvana and Elysium, making them the answer to my initial question as to who the second celestial race in Elysium is. I see now that the discrepancy between the Bestiary and The Great Beyond is one of setting vs. generic write-up. My curiosity is satisfied. Thanks!
That said, of course... if there are ANY outsider races who might drift into serving other planes, that award would go first to the angels.
I might have given an explicit loophole for that, but would need to go back and read the printed version again to double check. The loophole being that since angels can be seen as a manifestation of NG turned outwards and proactive, they might easily drift to other planes and act as allies or enter the service of powerful good deities (even LG or CG ones) in order to in the grand scheme of things, advance their cause and that of the Nirvana.
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Did I miss an update of the creature stats from 3.5 to PFRPG? Is this an errata thing? Maybe there is a link of which I was unaware?
-willPS: Todd, I would really like you to accept my friend request on facebook. There is much more to do with the planes. ;)
Some of the TGB monsters will appear in Bestiary II. Daemons, proteans and axiomites are a safe bet.
PS: Todd, I would really like you to accept my friend request on facebook. There is much more to do with the planes. ;)
Hmm, what name did you go by when you made the request?
But it has to be a cool name. I only friend cool people with cool names. ;)
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Hmm, what name did you go by when you made the request?
But it has to be a cool name. I only friend cool people with cool names. ;)
Well, my first name is Ralph, and you can't get a whole lot more uncool than that... :P But on facebook, it's R. William Thompson, the same name I will be using as an author. My Ecology of the Tengu will be in Kobold Quarterly in issue #14 - and aside from that, you may not have heard of me. HOWEVER, now having my grubby little fingers on The Great Beyond, I am well aware of your work. That said, I am a avid planewalker and interested in writing material to such a caliber that it would be interesting to Paizo/Pathfinder. I am aware of the height of this mountain I am intending to climb - and I am standing at its base.
My big project right now is the finalization and publication of a CS that will be completely PF-compatible, known as the Nymian Beastlands. http://elftown.com/_nym I am also aware of the challenged involved in marketing this form of material, but I am attempting a creative strategy and marketing position and have become a loyal Paizo customer since joining the Pathfinder Society organized gaming and meeting such wonderful people in the industry and among gaming fans. I am lucky enough to be a player with Doug Miles in the SE Michigan PFS group and learning from the first 5-star PFS GM ever (and I don't include Josh in this because he rewarded himself with those stars without actually running that many games, as I was told). In any case, we have an amazing bunch of people here locally that got me into it from a transition out of D&D 3.5 and now I am seeking a position in the industry where I can be creative and put together a set of published material that is both comprehensive and cohesive, but which is also transparent to a popular Open Gaming Content system of mechanics.
Long story short: I love Paizo now, and this includes your book. Now I want to make a new book - one that outlines the planes in generic mechanics sets that are both similar and modernized from the previous SRD planar traits. I have 'Portals & Planes' by FFG Legends & Lairs product line, and along with my Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, knowledge and experience with Planescape CS, and the many many SRD resources on the web - and though I don't own the new Game Mastery Guide by PF, I did have an opportunity to look through it and see that there is still an open slot for just such a book done the right way. Now that I have TGB, I am on it like white on rice.
I will send the facebook request once more, but please don't ignore it because my name's not cool! :P ;)
-will
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Thanks for the add on fb, Todd. For the record, I was very impressed with the level of philosophical and theological congruency in your writing to both the setting and the method of creating a new cosmology in the wake of losing access to the more well-known Great Wheel. I have heard people saying that they feel the Great Beyond is a more interesting and overall better cosmology, while I feel it was simply re-arranged and delineated by new geometry and somewhat simplified, while keeping as many of the original cosmological aspects as possible - such as important creature race/types, achetypal planes, etc.
I also noticed that only a few times were actual planar mechanics actually mentioned in this sourcebook, and only in passing as a flavor element. In the Game Mastery Guide (and I am going from memory, since I only had a moment to peer it over in the book store before being scolded by the shop owner for treating them like a library and not a store because I had gotten to them before she had time to shrink-wrap them), I know that it covers these details a little more in-depth and simply sticks to the basics of the SRD material on the planes. With that said, here is what is on my mind:
I own the planes books of 3.X (MotP, PH), many Planescape publications, and an amazingly rich third-party third edition publication called Portals & Planes, by Fantasy Flight Games' Legends & Lairs product line. This last one I HIGHLY recommend if you have never had the chance to see it. Very creative and flavorful, with both information on the build mechanics of portals/gates and the planes/cosmologies themselves. Includes many great planar traits/hazards that could be used across the board, and some of which could make for great encounter challenges in and of themselves.
My thought is to query Lisa and James to put together a planar book like this to supplement the core rulebooks. Something a little thicker than a chronicle, maybe not so thick and heavy as the bestiary. I was considering a 128-page publication, as opposed to the 64-page Chronicles. If monsters are included, something tells me we could easily go over. I am not sure of the typical word count for a 64-page sourcebook, but I can aim for a multiple of it in my own writing. I will want to do this regardless of your answer, BUT - would you be willing to co-write some material if it becomes an available opportunity? Your name is already associated with a decent knowledge of this topic, and to be honest - I have GOT this....... :D So.....? First step is you will need Portals & Planes. Without it, this idea is baseless and futile. The Planar hazards/traits in there are priceless and all are OGL content to the best of my knowledge.
-will
PS: Several months ago, I also approached another one of my idols, Owen Stephens, about writing a follow-up on the draconic language and script including my alphabet script and a description of its usage, etc., and though I think he considered it honestly, he told he that his ultimate reasoning against doing so was because of the legal issues with attempting to write a follow-up article on IP material that WotC now owned while printing under licensing to Dragon magazine, even though the idea retained some potency in his opinion. I am telling you this because although I haven't yet been given the chance, I am definitely a team player, and would really be willing to break hard into the industry by complementing the genius of a fellow and mentoring author... And I am brave enough to break this limb by going out onto it and extending my reach. Let me know your thoughts and concerns, and message me on facebook or email if you would like to discuss it privately. Pretty sure my email is on my profile on fb, but I can message it to you.