I am going to be starting a campaign located in the Darkmoon Vale region using the RPG beta rules. One of my players prefers to play rangers and usually selects the ranger's favorite enemy based on the most commonly known problem monster. Since neither lycantropes nor shape changers are a standard ranger favorite enemies I am looking for advise. When I get asked for a recommendation should I suggest humanoid(human) or animal? The other possiblity is to make a house rule and allow a local ranger to take lycantropes as a favorite enemies. I am leaning towards the house rule since it is a cleaner option in my mind.
Thanks,
Doug
I'd definitely allow the houserule. Its really the best way to handle a lycanthrope hunter.
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Personally, I would just suggest the humanoid (human) favored enemy. Unless you plan on having a lot of lycanthropes, it is probably the best use that the ranger will get for it, since most 'default' lycanthropes are base 'human'.
Of course, if your campaign is going to include a lot of shapechangers, then yeah, go with the shapechanging subtype. :)
I just don't like that, because the ranger hates lycanthropes, he's gotten really good at killing everyday normal humans.
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More that he knows where to shoot them. Since most lycanthropes are still humans underneath (call it the humans ability to mate with freaking everything, why all the half-elves and half-orcs have a human parent) to learn how to kill a lycanthrope, he still needs to know where to shoot them. The heart is still roughly in the same spot, the kidneys, the lungs, etc. As a result of learning how to kill were-creatures, he just happens to learn how to kill humans as a side-effect.
It can be justified, and it is ultimately more useful than focusing purely on shapechangers. Unless, like I mentioned, the campaign itself is going to have a lot of them.
I just don't like that, because the ranger hates lycanthropes, he's gotten really good at killing everyday normal humans.
Why not? After all, you get better at killing elephants from stalking geese. Or after a harrowing encounter with walking brains that take over your body, you suddenly become good at fighting weird fish monsters.
This is no more or less weird.
In fact, he'll find that after fighting those werewolves, that although they look like wolves, they behave a lot like humans...
I too am running a Beta game in Darkmoon Vale with a Ranger PC. He inquired as to the possiblity to taking Lycanthrope as a favored enemy, I had no problem with it then, and I still don't. He did not take it, he ended up going with the Lumber Consortium as a his favored enemy, but he may take it in the future. (And Chris, if you read this I advise you do so.)
More that he knows where to shoot them. Since most lycanthropes are still humans underneath
That's assuming humans are the base. The lycan template can be applied to any humaniod, so lycans could be other races as well like halflings, gnomes, dwarves, orcs, illumaniri, mongrelfolk, raptorians...well you see where I'm going.
Favoured Enemy Humaniod (shapechanger) would be the most appropraite, since it would grant the bonuses against lycens regardless of their base, and only lycens (the bonuses wouldn't apply to normal humaniods since most normal humaniods lack the "shapechanger" subtype).
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Note that I did say that 'most' were-things had humans as base, not all. Human is just the default in the MM, I'm fully aware that any race can be under it.
I only suggested humans on the off-chance that lycanthropes were not the campaign's focus. If they were not, and just happened to be a creature they came across occasionally, lycans seem to be much more rare, where-as there is a lot that is Human + Lycan.
Anyhow, I also said that if there is sufficient Lycans, to go with the Shapechanger subtype, that it would work just fine. :)
I would go with the Lycanthrope enemy, with no problem.
I don't even understand why it is not one of the available groups.
Lycanthrope hunters are a classic :
Van Helsing
Van Richten in Ravenloft supplements
The Silver Flame on Eberron
Thank you for all of the input. I have decided to add a regional trait for the campaign. Fangwatch Hunter which adds human(shapershifter)to the ranger list of favorite enemies. I agree with the commments that it should always have been part of the list.
Thanks,
Doug
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It would be Human (shapechanger)
i agree
its already covered, but I would add Lycanthrope as a type of enemy... lets consider this... if we can chose undead, why lycanthropes no? and don't tell me is the same to kill a zombie than a vampire or a lich...also... you can't kill a werewolf the same way you kill a human... if it was the case there would not be that many lycanthropes... each type requieres specific arms and they have specific allergens :P
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Can't giants be infected as well? I thought I saw one writen up by WOTC a while back. (Just read the SRD, it is in there)
I really like the idea of Rangers being able to choose were creatures as favored enemy, I'm scratching my head about Humanoid (Shapechanger). It works I guess.
I think I would perfer shapeshifter better. That way it works for giants and humanoids.
Since favored enemy (Undead) works against all types of undead not just humanoid, I think that should work for shapeshifters.
More that he knows where to shoot them.
Good, and very pertinent, point. Favoured enemy isn't based on hatred, but on familiarity. This familiarity can in turn stem from hatred, but it's not a given.
I too am running a Beta game in Darkmoon Vale with a Ranger PC. He inquired as to the possiblity to taking Lycanthrope as a favored enemy, I had no problem with it then, and I still don't. He did not take it, he ended up going with the Lumber Consortium as a his favored enemy, but he may take it in the future. (And Chris, if you read this I advise you do so.)
Your liberality is commendable! I wish I had a GM as open as this. I recently acquired into something like that. I wanted to take "foes" as favoured enemy, but was denied that request.
Can't giants be infected as well?
Yes, they can. At least one sample lycanthrope is a giant, in fact.
But then again, Giant is one of the most unnecessary types in the game. Humanoid should just not be limited in size. There could be a (giant) subtype for actual Giantish creatures (true Giants and Giantkin come to mind), but for the most part, they're just humanoids or monstrous humanoids of size large and sometimes larger (Rune Giants for the win!)
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Can't giants be infected as well?Yes, they can. At least one sample lycanthrope is a giant, in fact.
But then again, Giant is one of the most unnecessary types in the game. Humanoid should just not be limited in size. There could be a (giant) subtype for actual Giantish creatures (true Giants and Giantkin come to mind), but for the most part, they're just humanoids or monstrous humanoids of size large and sometimes larger (Rune Giants for the win!)
I see where your making your point from. I was trying to take it from a as close to 3.5/Pathfinder as possible position.
Maybe Paizo will come out with a Giant's book that will explain the differance between a Humaniod and a Giantkind.
I enjoyed the Dragon book that they had.
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More that he knows where to shoot them.Good, and very pertinent, point. Favoured enemy isn't based on hatred, but on familiarity. This familiarity can in turn stem from hatred, but it's not a given.
Thanks. I see a lot of "Ranger's Favored Enemy = Hated Enemy" justifications, and even a lot of players I've had seems to think that's a given, that it's the only way. While I think a Ranger *can* hate their Favored Enemy, it should be by no mean a given.
Heck, in Curse of the Crimson Throne, we had a Elven Ranger who had Favored Enemy (Human). Not because he disliked Humans, but because he was going into the Sable Company and the majority of the populous was Humans. It made sense that he would be good at combating them, since it was partially his job to act as a kind of marine/policeman.
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But then again, Giant is one of the most unnecessary types in the game. Humanoid should just not be limited in size. There could be a (giant) subtype for actual Giantish creatures (true Giants and Giantkin come to mind), but for the most part, they're just humanoids or monstrous humanoids of size large and sometimes larger (Rune Giants for the win!)
Or smaller.
See the Taer, which I was most surprised about, what with always being some kind of neandertal/caveman/apeman.
Yet the Goliath, which to any outside viewer, is a mini-Stone Giant, is not.
I'd like to see how they justify the split between humanoids, monstrous humanoids and giants, as well.
Is there simply a quota, that each book should include a few of each type?
Heck, in Curse of the Crimson Throne, we had a Elven Ranger who had Favored Enemy (Human). Not because he disliked Humans, but because he was going into the Sable Company and the majority of the populous was Humans. It made sense that he would be good at combating them, since it was partially his job to act as a kind of marine/policeman.
So I guess that restriction that favoured enemy (human) could only be taken by evil rangers is relaxed in PF? Or am I imagining that restriction?
Because FE(Human) is way unbalanced. They comprise a great number of the harder adversaries in any AP/adventure IMO.
Humanoid(Shapechanger) is the way to go. It covers (at least 1/2 of all) the lycanthropes, changlings, and shifters. If you want to take giant as a second favored enemy and get the other 1/2 of all lycanthropes go for it.
Humanoid(Shapechanger) is the way to go. It covers (at least 1/2 of all) the lycanthropes, changlings, and shifters. If you want to take giant as a second favored enemy and get the other 1/2 of all lycanthropes go for it.
Maybe that's just me, but i don't think a ranger chasing lycanthropes is also chasing dopplegangers or changelings. These other creatures have a completely different ecology and live in different envionments.
That's why Lycanthropes as a favored enemy makes more sense in my opinion.For rangers and other vindicator classes, such as some paladin variants, crusaders, justicars or whatever, the point is to give to the character the specific target of his focus.
It can be a race (ex: orcs, elves), a type (ex: aberrations, demons), a subtype (ex: lycanthropes, shapechangers), a faction (ex: mercykillers, xaositecs), a guild (ex: a guild of assassins), a religious group (ex: an evil cult) or a military organization (ex: an enemy army or company).
Often it is more reductive to be specific, as the bonus will only apply to a small group.
But in return the character gets a specific devotion against his favored enemy.
Humanoid(Shapechanger) is the way to go. It covers (at least 1/2 of all) the lycanthropes, changlings, and shifters. If you want to take giant as a second favored enemy and get the other 1/2 of all lycanthropes go for it.Maybe that's just me, but i don't think a ranger chasing lycanthropes is also chasing dopplegangers or changelings. These other creatures have a completely different ecology and live in different envionments.
That's why Lycanthropes as a favored enemy makes more sense in my opinion.
Of course not for dopplegangers, they are monstrous humanoids and thus Humanoid(Shapeshifter) wouldn't give the ranger any special bonus to them. Changlings being doppleganger derivatives are a bit iffy, but I would put it into the ranger being better at picking up clues of beings superificially passing themselves off for humans (or whatever humanoid race you want to use). Shifters certainly make sense though, being lycanthrope derivatives.
Anyway, I was pointing out "bonus" races you get with Humanoid(Shapeshifter), if you don't want to actually use your bonus on changlings, well good for you. It is like being a vampire hunter and taking favored enemy Undead. Now you are better at killing/hunting vampires, but also mummies, zombies, liches, shadows, wraiths, wights, etc. Sure we could make an issue that we are getting "too much", but really, if you don't want to use your bonuses for those other undead, nobody is forcing you.
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As an aside, earlier people were saying how the favored enemy damage wasn't hatred by instead knowing how to hurt the foe. Yes, it might not be hatred, but it is not (any longer since 3.5) precision damage either, thus it is not "precise" targeting. What is it then? Divine empowerment? I don't know.
Remember, the ranger bonus for Favored Enemy doesn't just apply to attack and damage. Physiology is one consideration, but there are others.
All those modifiers to skill rolls.
Those skill modifiers represent a deep understanding of how the favored enemies live, behave, act, and go about their daily routines.
It seems very likely that there are some crossovers between all the shapeshifters in their behavior patterns.
They hide their true identities. Being discovered is their greatest fear. Consequently they are secretive and distrustful of everyone. They are suspicious of everyone around them, and have to strive to relax in any social situation and to not treat everyone as an enemy. Etc.
This kind of behavior analysis is how a ranger would find his favored enemy, recognize them, and hunt them down.
Remember, rangers are not just "ranged combat" experts. They do other things, like hunting and scouting and tracking and acting as a warden for some location.
The similarities between dopplegangers and lycanthropes, while one is a unique monstrous humanoid and the other is a disease-infected human (e.g.) extend beyond their ability to shapeshift, and may very well influence their core behaviors, enough that someone (a ranger, perhaps) who is well versed in recognizing the behavior of one could reasonably recognize the bahavior of all.
Or at least that's one theory.
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Heck, in Curse of the Crimson Throne, we had a Elven Ranger who had Favored Enemy (Human). Not because he disliked Humans, but because he was going into the Sable Company and the majority of the populous was Humans. It made sense that he would be good at combating them, since it was partially his job to act as a kind of marine/policeman.So I guess that restriction that favoured enemy (human) could only be taken by evil rangers is relaxed in PF? Or am I imagining that restriction?
Because FE(Human) is way unbalanced. They comprise a great number of the harder adversaries in any AP/adventure IMO.
I thought the restriction was not FE(Human), but FE(your own race). Either way, it was dropped.
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So I guess that restriction that favoured enemy (human) could only be taken by evil rangers is relaxed in PF? Or am I imagining that restriction?
Because FE(Human) is way unbalanced. They comprise a great number of the harder adversaries in any AP/adventure IMO.
Yes, as others have said, it got dropped in 3.5.
Three guesses what Fayne's next favoured enemy is going to be, eh?
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I'm having a problem in my own "Curse of the Crimson Throne" campaign with an Elven Ranger w/Human as his favored enemy.
I think it was a brilliant choice seeing as the campaign takes place in human dominated lands. The two humans in the party are a little more leery. The human rogue has gone so far as to talk to the half-orc about contingency plans for when the elf "snaps" and has to be put down.
BAck to the question at hand. I think that Shapechanger would be a perfectly acceptable ranger enemy. If a ranger can take Aberration, which has the most discombobulated set of monsters EVER, and get the bonuses, i see no reason that he couldn't hunt a werewolf and a doppleganger and expect to get the bonuses as well. Notice, that a druid is no longer a shapechanger as Pathfinder has changed the spells.
I'm having a problem in my own "Curse of the Crimson Throne" campaign with an Elven Ranger w/Human as his favored enemy.
I think it was a brilliant choice seeing as the campaign takes place in human dominated lands. The two humans in the party are a little more leery. The human rogue has gone so far as to talk to the half-orc about contingency plans for when the elf "snaps" and has to be put down.
BAck to the question at hand. I think that Shapechanger would be a perfectly acceptable ranger enemy. If a ranger can take Aberration, which has the most discombobulated set of monsters EVER, and get the bonuses, i see no reason that he couldn't hunt a werewolf and a doppleganger and expect to get the bonuses as well. Notice, that a druid is no longer a shapechanger as Pathfinder has changed the spells.
Lots of good points.
Remember, "Favored Enemy" is not the same as "Hated Enemy" and while it sounds like entertaining roleplaying, there is little reason for the party to worry about the elf "snapping" and having to be put down.
Just because he knows the behavior patters, the scent, the habits, and the anatomy of humans very well, well enough to find them, recognize them, track them, and kill them, doesn't mean he takes any pleasure from it, or that he has any difficulty distinguishing between human evildoers and the rest of humanity.
Unless, of course, the player wants to play it that way.
And your point about aberrations is spot on. With a million different aberrations out there, all with different anatomy, different needs, different behaviors, different social structures, etc., how can a ranger learn them all as a single favored enemy?
And if he can, then learning all shapechangers should be a walk in the park.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I'm having a problem in my own "Curse of the Crimson Throne" campaign with an Elven Ranger w/Human as his favored enemy.
I think it was a brilliant choice seeing as the campaign takes place in human dominated lands. The two humans in the party are a little more leery. The human rogue has gone so far as to talk to the half-orc about contingency plans for when the elf "snaps" and has to be put down.
BAck to the question at hand. I think that Shapechanger would be a perfectly acceptable ranger enemy. If a ranger can take Aberration, which has the most discombobulated set of monsters EVER, and get the bonuses, i see no reason that he couldn't hunt a werewolf and a doppleganger and expect to get the bonuses as well. Notice, that a druid is no longer a shapechanger as Pathfinder has changed the spells.
Unless the ranger is being played as "about to snap and slaughter all humans" I think the other players are overeacting. He can quite simply be a bounty hunter type, and since it's a human city, they're the most common criminals to hunt.
The other player reaction is like having a druid in the party want to be prepared to deal with a ranger with favored enemy - animals, just in case he starts killing every living creature in the forest.
Because FE(Human) is way unbalanced. They comprise a great number of the harder adversaries in any AP/adventure IMO.
So? It's still not all enemies, so the fighter with his big, massive bonuses to every single attack will still outperform the ranger.
And actually getting to use abilities you have isn't unbalanced.
I thought the restriction was not FE(Human), but FE(your own race).
And that. The restriction never made any sense whatsoever, and only encouraged racism.
"We have an enemy on the loose."
"What race?"
"Human."
"DAMN! Now we need to find that elven bounty hunter again, because the human human hunter is a bastard!"
What is it then? Divine empowerment? I don't know.
Training. Like weapon specialisation and stuff like that.
For what its worth, it couldn't be precision damage, because under 3.5, undead, constructs, oozes, etc. were immune to precision damage, thus severely limiting the good it did for the ranger to choose those types of creatures as favored enemies.
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For what its worth, it couldn't be precision damage, because under 3.5, undead, constructs, oozes, etc. were immune to precision damage, thus severely limiting the good it did for the ranger to choose those types of creatures as favored enemies.
I believe you are thinking of 3.0. According to the d20srd (3.5),
At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy from those given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 2.
If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.
This was one of the main benefits for rangers when they moved to 3.5. Now they could get the bonus damage on their favored enemy if it were undead, abberration, or one of those other types normally immune to precision damage.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Well, the Lupins from 3.5 could select lycanthropes as their Favored Enemy if they were rangers, so I don't see why a human ranger can't if he lives in an area that has problems with them.
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Personally, I would just suggest the humanoid (human) favored enemy. Unless you plan on having a lot of lycanthropes, it is probably the best use that the ranger will get for it, since most 'default' lycanthropes are base 'human'.
Of course, if your campaign is going to include a lot of shapechangers, then yeah, go with the shapechanging subtype. :)
What he said: humanoid (human), as lycans are almost always human.
I too am running a Beta game in Darkmoon Vale with a Ranger PC. He inquired as to the possiblity to taking Lycanthrope as a favored enemy, I had no problem with it then, and I still don't. He did not take it, he ended up going with the Lumber Consortium as a his favored enemy, but he may take it in the future. (And Chris, if you read this I advise you do so.)Your liberality is commendable! I wish I had a GM as open as this. I recently acquired into something like that. I wanted to take "foes" as favoured enemy, but was denied that request.
I like to let the characters do as they wish as long as it doesn't break the game, although I'd probably have to draw the line at "foes" for a FE. LOL!
I'd probably have to draw the line at "foes" for a FE. LOL!
Hardliner! :D
Because FE(Human) is way unbalanced. They comprise a great number of the harder adversaries in any AP/adventure IMO.So? It's still not all enemies, so the fighter with his big, massive bonuses to every single attack will still outperform the ranger.
And actually getting to use abilities you have isn't unbalanced.
I was just comparing to the other choices for FE, not unbalanced in general. Should've made that explicit, sorry.
Rangers are nerfed to heck and back IMO. But I still like them, for a one level dip during a scout swift hunter build at least...
:-)
The real fun though is when you try to decide whether or not the ranger gets the bonuses when he doesn't know his quarry is a lycanthrope. (or a humanoid(shape changer) if you go that route).
Do his arrows mystically do more damage even though he doesn't know? or is his bonus negated because of his ignorance? If he Thinks something is a lycanthrope (or shapechanger) but isn't- does he still get the bonuses? Despite the similarity in the humanoid form regardless of whether or not its a lycanthrope?
-S
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The real fun though is when you try to decide whether or not the ranger gets the bonuses when he doesn't know his quarry is a lycanthrope. (or a humanoid(shape changer) if you go that route).
Do his arrows mystically do more damage even though he doesn't know? or is his bonus negated because of his ignorance? If he Thinks something is a lycanthrope (or shapechanger) but isn't- does he still get the bonuses? Despite the similarity in the humanoid form regardless of whether or not its a lycanthrope?
-S
You know what, funnily enough this happened in our Rise of the Runelords game.
Korvorvus is a goblin, but you look at that mutated form of his and you tell me someone seeing that thing attack you would know it's a goblin. So I gave my ranger a perception check to recognize the goblin features that remained, the ranger failed the check and didn't get his bonus damage.
I'd do the same thing for a player with Humanoid (shapechanger), say some random wolf attacked the party,
Ranger says "well is it a wolf or is it a werewolf"
I'd say give me a perception to notice the subtle differences that would clue you in.
Ranger "I rolled a 6"
Me "You have no idea, no bonus"
or alternatively
Ranger "I rolled a 32"
Me "You can tell by the way it moves that it has more intelligence and guile than the average wolf. You're sure this is a werewolf, take your shot and add your bonus."
I also make big use of the knowledge checks, and if a ranger fails his knowledge check to recognize a creature of some unusual type, say the new bizzare aberation in Monster Manual X. then he doesn't get his bonus to attacks and damage, although i do often still sectrectly add his bonus to his skill checks.
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I think that the OPs solution of making it into a regional trait that allows someone from the Vale with all it's Lycanthrope issues to pick them as a favored enemy works out just about perfectly. Not only does it make sense for the area and the class but it also adds more potential value to regional traits themselves. The power level is about right for a trait and you haven't given them something or changed the rules for their character for free. I love the customization options that regional traits from PFRPG are allowing players and GMs. Can't wait to see what traits come in the hardcover, if any.
Imagine a regional trait that changes a dwarf's racial enemy.
Tam
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So I guess that restriction that favoured enemy (human) could only be taken by evil rangers is relaxed in PF? Or am I imagining that restriction?
(3.5) Rangers are nerfed to heck and back IMO. But I still like them, for a one level dip during a scout swift hunter build at least...
:-)
Yesss...
Humansss are your enemyss...Not eevil to kill them, nonono.
Doing the world a favours, you would...
Kill the humanses...
Kill them, and we can be togetherr for ever and ever...
So I guess that restriction that favoured enemy (human) could only be taken by evil rangers is relaxed in PF? Or am I imagining that restriction?
(3.5) Rangers are nerfed to heck and back IMO. But I still like them, for a one level dip during a scout swift hunter build at least...
:-)
Yesss...
Humansss are your enemyss...Not eevil to kill them, nonono.
Doing the world a favours, you would...Kill the humanses...
Kill them, and we can be togetherr for ever and ever...
Knack off, you Gollum wannabee, I ain't diving into no pit of black oil anytime soon!