|
Hi,
We have been playing 4E for about 4 months now once a week. The problem I'm having is that everyone is now doing the infamous "15 min adventuring day". The real headache is if someone has used their daily power and another hasn't and they argue over taking a extended rest. Due to not being 100% sure of all 4E rules I have been using "canned" adventures. Without heavy modification there seems little reason that in most cases the players can't rest after immediately blowing their daily powers in almost every encounter. Exaggerating slightly, but the adventure feels like "clear room, rest to get daily power - repeat".
The only solution I have come up with (and is unpopular) is remove the daily power and allow the use of 2 more encounter powers.
Due to the power of a daily and if everyone uses theirs in a specific encounter my "15 min adventuring day" has dropped to a "5 minute adventuring day". Very frustrating from the DM's point of view.
Suggestions most welcome,
S.
Hi,
We have been playing 4E for about 4 months now once a week. The problem I'm having is that everyone is now doing the infamous "15 min adventuring day". The real headache is if someone has used their daily power and another hasn't and they argue over taking a extended rest. Due to not being 100% sure of all 4E rules I have been using "canned" adventures. Without heavy modification there seems little reason that in most cases the players can't rest after immediately blowing their daily powers in almost every encounter. Exaggerating slightly, but the adventure feels like "clear room, rest to get daily power - repeat".
The only solution I have come up with (and is unpopular) is remove the daily power and allow the use of 2 more encounter powers.
Due to the power of a daily and if everyone uses theirs in a specific encounter my "15 min adventuring day" has dropped to a "5 minute adventuring day". Very frustrating from the DM's point of view.
Suggestions most welcome,
S.
As with most cases, the "fifteen minute adventuring day" is a symptom of the "adventure" being a game that's being evaluated on a mathematical basis by its players. If there's no reason not to rest at a particular juncture, players are going to do it, except when they want to "see what we can do."
The trick is to remove the incentive to rest, or give an incentive not to: the bad guys are getting away, the princess is going to be slain, the MacGuffin has a magical time bomb on it.
It doesn't matter how many powers the PCs have if they FAIL the objectives of the story by getting where they need to be an hour too late, as a result of resting for 6 hours.
Forcing them to stop resting, well wandering monsters do that to some degree. Enter a dungeon, fight the ogre at tha gate but now you want to rest, well either run back to town or try your luck in the woods, or even more trying of luck by resting right where you fought the ogre.
Most of the other locals will want to know why Fred the Ogre was making so much noise, they may not rush to investigate, but they will come, and maybe inmass. So either the party moves it or they face multiple encounters at once. Hint strongly to the players that fighting is noisy bussiness, and resting in the ogre cave aint all that safe. The first time they have to fight back to back to back encounters while trying to rest should teach them to conserve their dailies more.
I've had limited experience with 4E, but can't the same tactics be used as with any other edition of the game? Whenever I have players who get too rest-friendly, a mid-nap, random encounter causes that activity to get curbed.
Beyond the good suggestion of Brian, I think that one suggestion for adventures without a ticking clock would be to reduce the effectiveness of daily powers until the party has achieved a sufficient number of milestones. Something like "daily powers take a -2 penalty to the attack roll unless you have reached at least one milestone and gain a +1 bonus to the attack for every milestone after the first."
Let me suggest something, and this may be waaay off the mark for the story you guys are working with.
In my campaign, I deal with this by making the encounters tougher, but have them be fewer and far between. The result is that fights seem more natural than just a mob to take down and recharge. Resting will occur, but more likely on a daily frequency. More exploring of empty rooms might be done in dungeon locations, but that will be because the monsters are really teaming up for one big battle.
I find that there are very few instances where this does not work. The real challenge is making sure the combats flow with the concept of the story.
Let us take a look at the Extended Resting rules... pg 263 of the PHB.
A 6 hour rest that can only be used once per day (or atleast after finishing an extended rest, you have to wait 12 hours before you can begin another one). They can't be doing anything strenuous, and they regain all those HP, Healing Surges, and daily powers but their action points reset to 1 (note if they do not rest and complete another encounter they will be getting additional action points for achieving a milestone) and no interruptions... if something interrupts the rest then they have to add the time spet dealing with the interruption to the total resting time. If they were barricaded in a dungeon I would say that the monster denizen trying to pound into their room is an interruption and combat is certainly an interruption as well.
Due to not being 100% sure of all 4E rules I have been using "canned" adventures. Without heavy modification there seems little reason that in most cases the players can't rest after immediately blowing their daily powers in almost every encounter. Exaggerating slightly, but the adventure feels like "clear room, rest to get daily power - repeat".
I think this is really the core of your problem here.
As a player I had an interesting 'metagame' discussion on this very point a bunch of sessions back. Essentially the conversation boiled down to the following.
"OK guys there is some call for a rest at this point but we appear to be on a time limit. My feelings are that if this adventure takes into account what happens if we stop then. mathematically, our best option is to press forward even if we have used some Daily's. In fact if the adventure has spent even 6 paragraphs addressing this topic we should press forward. Even if the adventure has failed to address this issue if Dave (our DM) has addressed the issue by modifying the adventure then, again, mathematically, we should press on."
"So does the adventure address this? I have no idea but this adventure is written by Dave Noonan, I've read other material by him if not this particular adventure. To my knowledge this is not the kind of topic he'd have addressed, furthermore Dungeon adventures are often tight on space - at this stage in the games development cycle if he had addressed this issue the editors would probably have cut it. So I think we are safe in regards to the adventure at hand. However I'd be very careful with this assessment - adventure writers much more likely to deal with the adventure in a holistic manner are likely coming up in this AP (Scales of War) if Internet scuttlebutt is to be believed. A writer like Greg Vaughan probably won't let us get away with this kind of crap."
"The next issue is did Dave modify the adventure to take this into account? I've got a lot of DMing years under my belt - Nothing that we have seen so far gives me 'homebrew' vibes. He works 10 hour days he has no time. I say he did not modify the adventure...but we had best be careful in this regards. He could modify it in the future if we annoy him enough."
"I say we rest".
I took rather perverse pride when one of the other players accused me of...
"Thats not even metagaming, thats beyond metagaming. Based on past experience with the authours other adventures? WTF!"
Anyway the solution is to make it, mathematically, a bad option to constantly stop and rest. Daily's are not that powerful considering the other things one looses when one stops. So you should address this issue on your own if the canned adventure does not.
The other very easy way of dealing with this is a rather minor house rule that should be pretty profound in practise. Reset the Action Point counter to ZERO when they stop. They don't get an action point until the first milestone - here they get 2 Action Points.
Considering that an Action Point is almost always more powerful then anything but the most powerful of Daily's (the stuff coming out at high levels) this essentially makes the optimum number of encounters for a group to run through before taking a rest become at least 5 instead of 1.
- In this case they don't have an AP on encounter #1 and #2 but they get 2 at the end of encounter #2.
- They use 1 on encounter #3 and they use another on encounter #4, at the end of encounter #4 they got 1.
- They use that one on encounter #5.
- Now if they keep pressing forward they'll get one on encounter #6 and be able to use it on encounter #7. If they rest they'd have none for encounter #6 and #7 but they'd have 2 usable on encounter #8 and Encounter #9.
I just say "Guys, seriously, think about this as if it were real. In the next room are some monsters who know you're in their base killing their dudes. They have prisoners - if you rest now, those prisoners will be dead or moved to another location. If you rest here, you will be ambushed in your sleep by the rest of the fortress troops."
Several of the players in the game are new to table-top, so I have no problem being quite bald and blunt about it.
|
If they are running on the assumption that the bad guys are just going to sit on their hands and wait for the party to get to them fresh so they can kill them easily, disabuse them of that notion. I would argue that the problem with the 5 minute adventuring day is that the DM doesn't react to events in a way that is logical for intelligent foes. If you attack a site, clear a room, and then go away again (or even set up camp) without clearing out the rest of the complex, you are asking for trouble. Make them roleplay the going home, and attack them. When they return to the fray, maybe a massive response from creatures that would otherwise be in separate encounters within the site? Sure, it might be a bit tough to survive, but the PCs are fresh, right?
The point is, the situation should not be static so the PCs can chip away over time and the baddies not respond. And so the PCs get out of the habit of blowing their daily on the first encounter and going for a nice long rest, because while they might want to leave the scenario at that point the scenario doesn't leave them.
Gonna have to chime in in agreement with Fabes and Aubrey on this one. Also, for what it's worth - and YMMV - metagaming to the degree mentioned in the post above Fabes makes me vomit. That is all.
If they are running on the assumption that the bad guys are just going to sit on their hands and wait for the party to get to them fresh so they can kill them easily, disabuse them of that notion. I would argue that the problem with the 5 minute adventuring day is that the DM doesn't react to events in a way that is logical for intelligent foes. If you attack a site, clear a room, and then go away again (or even set up camp) without clearing out the rest of the complex, you are asking for trouble. Make them roleplay the going home, and attack them. When they return to the fray, maybe a massive response from creatures that would otherwise be in separate encounters within the site? Sure, it might be a bit tough to survive, but the PCs are fresh, right?
The point is, the situation should not be static so the PCs can chip away over time and the baddies not respond. And so the PCs get out of the habit of blowing their daily on the first encounter and going for a nice long rest, because while they might want to leave the scenario at that point the scenario doesn't leave them.
We've actually had the opposite problem in our weekly game recently. The DM is playing the villians smart, and no matter what we do, inevitably one of the foes will run to the next room and alert that rooms troups, who then rush in, after sending out another guy to alert virtually the entire dungeon. Thus a single level-appropriate encounter becomes a freaking huge furball that the PC's are blowing every encounter and daily on and still are barely hanging on.
So we have this HUGE encounter, and we've spent probably what, 5 minutes of in-game time, and we really can't justify resting, but then we're going into the next encounter with no daily abilities, and having blown a lot of healing surges, but we're under time pressure to prevent hostages from being sacrificed.
Exciting gameplay, but frustrating at the same time.
Wait, wasn't that taken care of in 4e? I'm almost positive they said so.
Talk to them. Appeal to their sense of... call it what you will. Roleplaying spirit. Tell them you think it's silly.
Introduce a rule that rest and regaining of daily abilities can only happen once a day (hence the word "daily"), maybe giving everyone a fixed time where they regain their stuff (similar to 3e clerics)
Change the adventures' dynamic so the have an incentive to keep on going. They want to go into the dungeon, wipe out everything in the first room, and retreat for resting? Well, those dungeon denizens aren't stupid, and they'll wait for them when they come back.
Or put them on the clock.
We had that problem before. Especially some more power-gamerly inclined people. The worst offender was a psion player who went nova, spending the maximum amount of power points every round (I don't remember if he had access to quicken power at the time, but if he had, he used that every single round as well). Didn't matter if we fought some big nasty critter or goblins without class levels.
He totally dominated. For about 10 combat rounds, or less (and we had many lesser encounters at the time). Then he'd run out of fule (about 5 minutes into the dungeon) and start complaining that he coudln't do anything and demanding that we rest.
The GM had had it and introduced the "daily daily" rule.
I still wonder if we'd ever have introduced the rule if not for players who want to "win" the game.
The point is, the situation should not be static so the PCs can chip away over time and the baddies not respond. And so the PCs get out of the habit of blowing their daily on the first encounter and going for a nice long rest, because while they might want to leave the scenario at that point the scenario doesn't leave them.
QFT.
I find that the time that I hear cries for "EXTENDED REST!" (as both player and DM) is when a PC has 0 surges left. To which my reply is usually, "Well, that's how it goes sometimes. Now you'll have to be really careful."
Lots of good suggestions here on how to discourage resting. Perhaps instead of looking for metagame / mechanics / out of Character solutions, some in character solutions may help as well.
Have the NPCs ridicule them for resting so frequently. Maybe an NPC Bard decides to travel with them to chronicle their achievements, and starts singing about their seeming inability to have more than one fight in a day.
Perhaps while they are off resting, another adventuring party comes through and completes the quest, thus denying them XP, Loot and Fame.
Once they start getting a rep as a bunch of weaklings who have to rest after every significant combat, and the NPCs start treating them as such, they should wake up and start having longer days.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I haven't run into this issue too much, since Daily Powers usually aren't quite powerful enough to really seem that big a deal once used - instead, healing surges tend to be the dividing line in my group. And it can be interesting to see the debate over how low we can be before it is actually dangerous to continue on!
My experience has been the same as Matthew's, so I'm surprised to learn your group is valuing the loss of one daily power by one character so highly. Is there a particular daily power that is causing them to rest, or is it any daily power used by any character?
Edit: The only other thought I have is maybe to require them to achieve a milestone before they can refresh their daily powers. Granted, this will only push them to doing two encounters per day, but it might help a little. You might also let them trade in 2 action points to recharge their dailies if you wanted to up the power level - that would encourage them to keep playing to get more action points to recharge their dailies.
For a little bit on how to combat the 15-minute day, consult the Alexandrian blog.
The Alexandrian on Wandering Monsters
Obviously, a post geared toward offering a way to suppress the oft-reported 15 minute day in 3.5. But with some wisdom that applies to 4e as well.
Wandering monsters, or writ a bit larger as a dynamic environment, keeps the PCs from dealing with a single encounter, resting, dealing with the next encounter, resting again, etc. Maybe it's monsters that have the potential to wander by and disrupt rest. Maybe it's just the ability of subsequent encounters to bunch up, build up defenses, raise the stakes of any fight, or just get away. But as long as there is something that can make a long wait and rest a disadvantage rather than an advantage, players will (eventually) take that into account.
I don't think the 15 minute day is the result solely of expendible daily resources, though they are certainly implicated (particularly in 3e, where the save DCs are significantly higher for more scarce higher level spells). I think it also substitutes for a save feature that you see in computer RPGs.
When you play computer RPGs, it's fairly important to save after each and every significant event - each fight, maybe even each change of location in the game world. You may not be regaining all of your resources but you're setting things up so that, through trial and error and maybe dying a few times, you can figure out how to approach the next encounter in an optimal fashion. In most tabletop games, you don't have the ability to rush in, get clobbered, restore from the saved game, and tailor your response. So the impulse is to go in with every contingency, including high level spells and hit points/healing surges, as readily available as possible and enough defensive buffer to ride out the time it takes to figure out the best way to beat the encounter.
I think this contributes to why the 15 minute day seems to be so commonly heard about these days. Players, many of whom now have computer RPG experience before table-top, are accustomed to saving the game more than players who started with table-top games before playing computer RPGs.
Wait, wasn't that taken care of in 4e? I'm almost positive they said so.
They removed the problem of characters running out of thematic things to do after a single encounter and being reduced to ineffectiveness in future encounters. For instance, Wizards will no longer find themselves "forcing" the party to rest after one or two encounters because they don't have any spells left. The entire party should be able to last through four or five encounters before requiring an extended rest. They should be able to push on through one or two more beyond that if they really need to, though they'll be straining themselves (and be nearly out of healing surges).
This thread is already full of golden advice that I can't really add much. I just want to chime in to enforce Fabes' point - if your players are new, be blunt with them about storyline implications (preferably as a warning, then follow through if they still insist on resting). Heck, even if they aren't new, really, though that may get more contentious. The link to Alexandrian is also a very good one in a cross-system sense.
As an only tangentially related anecdote, in the few 4e sessions I've gotten to run in the past couple of months, I've had the exact opposite problem - only one player (of three) so much acknowledges the existence of his Dailies, and Encounter powers see fairly rare use as well!
I attribute this largely to a mix of resource hoarding (another computer RPG hold over which I'm prone to myself), new players (two new to the system, one who only played AD&D as a kid), and the fact that I'm still getting my feet wet with how best to go about adventure/encounter design in 4e (thus encounters being a bit too easy sometimes).
|
|
Thanks for all the advice. I think that the main problem stems from the adventure as written (WotC canned). Each room presents itself as an entire micro-verse independent of the room before or after (with a couple of exceptions). In some ways this is simply to make sure that the obvious doesn't happen. That being the fight in the first room causes the entire complex to come crashing down on the party wiping it out. However because of the "you enter the room, DM place figures here" mentality of the authors creativity and "reality" is a tad well squashed. Now before someone beats me with a pigs bladder with comments of "but you're the DM" - we are new(ish) to the rules and wished to run things "by the book". I think it is time to biff the adventure into closest trash bin and write my own adventure...
Cheers,
S.
Just curious which adventures you are/have been playing. There are tips in Keep on the Shadowfell and Thunderspire Labyrinth about monsters running away to warn other monsters or monsters drawn by the noise of a fight. Just ask my players about the running battle through the duergar fortress.... :D
Just curious which adventures you are/have been playing. There are tips in Keep on the Shadowfell and Thunderspire Labyrinth about monsters running away to warn other monsters or monsters drawn by the noise of a fight. Just ask my players about the running battle through the duergar fortress.... :D
Yep. Same battle. We fought the whole bloody Horned Hall at once. We went into the fight with daily spells already blown, and some surges already used. Giant furball of a fight that saw us tactically retreating to the bridge, then battling at the doorway just to limit the number of combatants.
Same thing happening at the Gnoll stronghold currently.
Don't get me wrong. It's very exciting, challenging play. It's simply the opposite of 5 minutes and done for the day. It's battle the whole dungeon at once without so much as a short rest.
|
Thanks for all the advice. I think that the main problem stems from the adventure as written (WotC canned). Each room presents itself as an entire micro-verse independent of the room before or after (with a couple of exceptions). In some ways this is simply to make sure that the obvious doesn't happen. That being the fight in the first room causes the entire complex to come crashing down on the party wiping it out. However because of the "you enter the room, DM place figures here" mentality of the authors creativity and "reality" is a tad well squashed. Now before someone beats me with a pigs bladder with comments of "but you're the DM" - we are new(ish) to the rules and wished to run things "by the book". I think it is time to biff the adventure into closest trash bin and write my own adventure...
Cheers,
S.
WOOO good thing to hear...
I used prepackaged stuff, but I heavily modify it, and tactics always change based upon what the party does...
Just curious which adventures you are/have been playing. There are tips in Keep on the Shadowfell and Thunderspire Labyrinth about monsters running away to warn other monsters or monsters drawn by the noise of a fight. Just ask my players about the running battle through the duergar fortress.... :D
As one of those players, I remember saying really loudly "No! We're not stopping, we're taking the toerags down NOW!" And will very likely be saying it again.
One of the things I like is the resource handling. We're supposed to be heroes doing the impossible. Yes, we might die. It's part of the deal.
I think it is time to biff the adventure into closest trash bin and write my own adventure...
Cheers,
S.
I'll note that often all you really need to do is add an addendum along the lines of 'what to do if the PCs stop'. Generally otherwise the adventure is probably fairly good.
Furthermore you don't even have to do a huge amount in this regards. The daily's just are not that stunning mathematically speaking. Their use reduces the total power of the party by no more then maybe 15% at most.
Having the average danger of the encounters ramp up even slightly if they leave will deal with this problem because the players simply are not much weaker even without their daily's. They still have their encounter powers. If the consistent response to their leaving is along the lines of
- The Orcs that were off guard and easily surprised are now well armed, on guard and have set the trap.
- The giant who was asleep and not in armour has now woken up and is with his comrades ready to fight.
- The BBEG wizard doles out the healing potions that the party would have gotten as loot to his lackeys that were damage but escaped. Reduce the amount of treasure the players get.
Because the math is so close its comparatively easy for the DM to set the situation up so that, mathematically speaking, leaving is always just plain bad play. Its invariably and consistently the wrong answer and players that do it invariably have played badly then they will, soon enough, get the idea that their daily's are essentially 'one use per episode of the adventure' powers and not really daily's at all and I think that this is generally how things ought to be viewed.
Now there are some other aspects to this however that need to be considered. If the dungeon is some kind of endless maze the players are going to have to stop eventually. So that style of game needs other clues for the players to pick up on that allow them to figure out when they can reasonably stop without the DM unleashing his punitive hammer on them. Reasonable sized levels or clearly demarcated areas between different groups of monsters work well in this regards. Otherwise its generally best if the adventures is split up into nice bite sized chunks.
Another issue is what works best as a DM stick in this regards. In my above example I kind of break things down into three different options for the DM.
The Orcs are on guard and have set a trap is a punishment through increased danger stick. While it works its often the least effective method for dealing with this because the players - now in more danger are likely to use their daily's right here and then - having noted how dangerous the adventure seems to be, are going to be serously thinking they better leave again and get their daily's back. If the DM just keeps reinforcing the orcs front door every time they come back then the players are on a kind of XP treadmill.
The second example with the giant might, generally be better, in this case players that had pressed forward would have gotten an easy encounter by killing the sleeping giant. Good for some easy XP but this faces a bit of an issue for groups with a really limited amount of D&D time because its not a very satisfying encounter.
I personally tend to favour stuff thats similar to the third example - if the players leave the adventure does not really get much tougher but their luchre is reduced. Players often really notice and get very unhappy if you hit them in their characters pocket book. Make sure that its clear to the players that they have lost treasure by leaving. In my experience if players believe that by leaving they are almost certianly giving up treasure then they are extremely loath to leave.
This threat is, in my experience, by far the most effective one for the DM to use. They'll deal with increased danger stoically or not and they might or might not notice or appreciate that easy encounter that you gave them but they'll positively freak out if you 'steal' their treasure whenever they leave.
|
|
I personally tend to favour stuff thats similar to the third example - if the players leave the adventure does not really get much tougher but their luchre is reduced. Players often really notice and get very unhappy if you hit them in their characters pocket book. Make sure that its clear to the players that they have lost treasure by leaving. In my experience if players believe that by leaving they are almost certianly giving up treasure then they are extremely loath to leave.
So true - power-gamers love their treasure, it's the biggest lure for them. If the duergar sequester their treasure somewhere safe and inaccessible, that may be punishment (and lesson) enough.
I like the idea of starting at 0 Action Points each day, and awarding one after the first fight. Then you can either go back to milestones after each even fight, or make the milestones after each odd-numbered fights.
Also, short rests take "about" 5 minutes. They can certainly be shorter if it makes the plot better. For example, with your fleeing goblin or kobold, he may take a few minutes to round up reinforcements and for those reinforcements to get prepared. You can reward a PC who took the appropriate language (perhaps by spending a feat on Linguist) with the information about the monsters' preparations. If they hear "hurry up and put on your armor, get your spears; you two, GRAB THE BALLISTA!" then the PCs can make a choice: take a few minutes to recoup their strength (short rest) or press the attack immediately and catch the enemy less prepared. (Give the bad guys -2 AC for not being properly armored up, maybe they have to spend the first round after PCs arrive moving to the spear rack, and they keep the ballista crew (use crossbow trap stats, requiring 2 standard actions to load and fire, or just make up some damage dice and roll with it) from bringing it to bear on them.)
And if the PCs leg it, then the bad guys can prepare with Moar Ballistas!
On that same note, you could impose a -2 attack/damage penalty on those who choose to sleep in non-light armor. (ala 3.5) And then the encounters that interrupt the extended rest become much more dangerous than if they had simply pressed on and tackled things earlier in the day.
I like the idea of starting at 0 Action Points each day, and awarding one after the first fight. Then you can either go back to milestones after each even fight, or make the milestones after each odd-numbered fights.
This helps, but not maybe enough. If you go back to insisting that they complete 2 encounters before getting their next AP after the one they got after encounter #1 then the optimum point for the party to stop becomes at the end of encounter #2. They use their AP here - they won't get one until encounter #3 and it won't be usable until encounter #4.
Thats mathematically equivalent to not getting one until they finish encounter #1.
Things improve a little if we give out an AP after encounter #1 and then give another after encounter #2. In this case the optimum number of encounters to go through is 3. You get one on encounter #1, use it but get another on encounter #2 and then use it on encounter #3. At this point your better off stopping and resting then pressing forward. If you rest you'll come back and get an AP on both encounter #4 and #5 while you'll only get one on encounter #4 if you press forward.
|
|
Personally I would be uncomfortable tinkering with the game mechanics, given that there is actually a failure of roleplaying here. Plus, taking away APs could seem vindictive. The point is to make them understand that clearing a complex a room a day is not tenable - it breaks suspension of disbelief. I would point out the problem to them, and explain that you will be changing the ways the scenarios pan out to take account of the warning the baddies get, which could make the scenario much more difficult for the PCs if they persist in clinging to their dailies. And then, if they don't change, they have been warned and then hit them with what you have got. That might upset them too, of course, but there is something they can do about it (i.e. play the game like there is actually something going on in real life, not that the monsters are just waiting to die and exist i Limbo until the PCs arrive). There is nothing they can do about having APs taken away, other than get another game. My suggestion, anyway - you know your group better than me.
Personally I would be uncomfortable tinkering with the game mechanics, given that there is actually a failure of roleplaying here. Plus, taking away APs could seem vindictive. The point is to make them understand that clearing a complex a room a day is not tenable - it breaks suspension of disbelief. I would point out the problem to them, and explain that you will be changing the ways the scenarios pan out to take account of the warning the baddies get, which could make the scenario much more difficult for the PCs if they persist in clinging to their dailies. And then, if they don't change, they have been warned and then hit them with what you have got. That might upset them too, of course, but there is something they can do about it (i.e. play the game like there is actually something going on in real life, not that the monsters are just waiting to die and exist i Limbo until the PCs arrive). There is nothing they can do about having APs taken away, other than get another game. My suggestion, anyway - you know your group better than me.
Well I'll point out that none of the systems proposed so far take APs away unless the players insist on stopping after every fight. How APs are received is a pretty gamist mechanic so I really don't see any harm in taking such a mechanic and tweaking it to reward players for staying longer.
I don't really agree that the problem is a role playing one. They are stopping for mechanical reasons (get their daily's back). Your proposing to use a role playing solution in order to get around what is in reality a mechanical problem - essentially appeal to their higher nature - and then show then the mailed fist of the DM if that does not work. This is a valid response but it seems to me that tweaking the mechanics so as to have a mechanical solution to what is in effect a mechanical problem is just as valid an option.
|
|
We discussed the issue with my group and I quoted some of the suggestions. In the end we felt that dropping daily powers still left the characters at nearly full power and removed any reason other than healing surges to rest. Not sure if it works for other groups but the lost of the daily power(s) isn't such a biggie - well so far.
T.
We discussed the issue with my group and I quoted some of the suggestions. In the end we felt that dropping daily powers still left the characters at nearly full power and removed any reason other than healing surges to rest. Not sure if it works for other groups but the lost of the daily power(s) isn't such a biggie - well so far.
T.
Seems a tad dramatic an option to me just based on the fact that Daily's are pretty cool. Another option that crosses my mind is to make Daily Powers not something one has off the bat but something that one gets every X number of mile stones regardless of whether the character has rested or not. So, for example, players could earn one use of their daily powers every 6 encounters - its perfectly possible for them to rest or not while counting the number of encounters that have gone by since they got their last Daily but it does not matter whether or not the players have rested for calculating it. They simply start counting and when they reach 6 they get their daily power and they get another use when they have done another 6 encounters.
Or, if the DM wants more dramatic licence you could make Daily's something that the DM hands out during the course of adventures. The obvious placement spot would be just as the PCs come face to face with the BBEG but the DM has the option to insert as many or as few daily's as he wants into the adventures.
In any case you should probably do something to help their characters out if they get up in levels because you eventually get a number of dailies. Use a rule like 'for every 2 daily's your character would normally have you get an extra encounter power instead.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
We discussed the issue with my group and I quoted some of the suggestions. In the end we felt that dropping daily powers still left the characters at nearly full power and removed any reason other than healing surges to rest. Not sure if it works for other groups but the lost of the daily power(s) isn't such a biggie - well so far.
T.
I have to ask then, if not having Daily powers at all isn't such a big deal, then why was not having them before such an incentive to rest? Wouldn't playing without them basically be like continuing on with the adventure instead of resting to get them back?
|
|
Personally I would be uncomfortable tinkering with the game mechanics, given that there is actually a failure of roleplaying here. Plus, taking away APs could seem vindictive. The point is to make them understand that clearing a complex a room a day is not tenable - it breaks suspension of disbelief. I would point out the problem to them, and explain that you will be changing the ways the scenarios pan out to take account of the warning the baddies get, which could make the scenario much more difficult for the PCs if they persist in clinging to their dailies. And then, if they don't change, they have been warned and then hit them with what you have got. That might upset them too, of course, but there is something they can do about it (i.e. play the game like there is actually something going on in real life, not that the monsters are just waiting to die and exist in Limbo until the PCs arrive). There is nothing they can do about having APs taken away, other than get another game. My suggestion, anyway - you know your group better than me.
Well I'll point out that none of the systems proposed so far take APs away unless the players insist on stopping after every fight. How APs are received is a pretty gamist mechanic so I really don't see any harm in taking such a mechanic and tweaking it to reward players for staying longer.
I don't really agree that the problem is a role playing one. They are stopping for mechanical reasons (get their daily's back). Your proposing to use a role playing solution in order to get around what is in reality a mechanical problem - essentially appeal to their higher nature - and then show then the mailed fist of the DM if that does not work. This is a valid response but it seems to me that tweaking the mechanics so as to have a mechanical solution to what is in effect a mechanical problem is just as valid an option.
It's a mechanical problem in that they want a particular part of the mechanics back. It's a roleplaying problem in that they are metagaming the mechanics and so not progressing through the adventure in a way that seems realistic. But we can argue about definitions - it's a problem, we can agree on that.
|
|
TO answer the OP:
Play 1e, we didn't have those problems back then. If you disengaged, the enemy either pursued or worked hard to make coming back a PITA. Pretty much every module and a whole page of the DMG addressed this.
This is why 1e > every edition since. Nothing existed in a vacuum, monsters didn't just sit around waiting for PCs to bust down the door, and the rules supported this style of play. Later editions were too focused (in the DMGs) on coddling the players, and, frankly, it lead to the "15 minute game day".
Bah, kids today...
:)
I partially solve this problem with the words "You don't think this seems like a safe place to make camp" But I also design dungeons to have safe rest spots every once in a while. My players still seem to range between waaaay to cautious (The barbarian has never raged for fear of needing his daily later. Not once.) to blowing their dailies on obvious minions when the fight is mostly over and everyone is healthy. But hey, it is their decision.
|
|
Seems a tad dramatic an option to me just based on the fact that Daily's are pretty cool.
Unfortunately the number crunchers also saw the "pretty cool" and perhaps thought they were cool enough to warrant a bit of a withdraw/nap to regain between encounters.
There was a general consensus that they didn't actually overly effect the game given they contributed so little to a characters power. I believe someone quoted characters are still at 90-95% power without them.
The players now either choose +2 healing surges or 1 extra encounter power instead of their daily power (can change which one after an extended rest). Works out pretty well so far, and in a way is more useful than the "one trick pony" of a daily. Dailies seem actually if you think about it a little out of place in 4E, and in some cases are difficult to imagine why they could only happen "daily" at any rate!
Seriously, drop dailies and the game feels more "realistic", meaning encounter powers seem 'right', you do a few cool things then a too buggered to do more - but too buggered to do something really cool after even 1-2 hours rest?! Dailies as stated by many add little to a character in terms of usefulness in a fight. In fact they sit there either being used in the first combat or perhaps even forgotten about until the end of the adventuring day unused. So it removes the "when should I use this power" issue of dailies as not to waste it.
Having played minus dailies I wouldn't go back...
You should try it,
S.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
Seems a tad dramatic an option to me just based on the fact that Daily's are pretty cool.
Unfortunately the number crunchers also saw the "pretty cool" and perhaps thought they were cool enough to warrant a bit of a withdraw/nap to regain between encounters.
There was a general consensus that they didn't actually overly effect the game given they contributed so little to a characters power. I believe someone quoted characters are still at 90-95% power without them.
The players now either choose +2 healing surges or 1 extra encounter power instead of their daily power (can change which one after an extended rest). Works out pretty well so far, and in a way is more useful than the "one trick pony" of a daily. Dailies seem actually if you think about it a little out of place in 4E, and in some cases are difficult to imagine why they could only happen "daily" at any rate!
Seriously, drop dailies and the game feels more "realistic", meaning encounter powers seem 'right', you do a few cool things then a too buggered to do more - but too buggered to do something really cool after even 1-2 hours rest?! Dailies as stated by many add little to a character in terms of usefulness in a fight. In fact they sit there either being used in the first combat or perhaps even forgotten about until the end of the adventuring day unused. So it removes the "when should I use this power" issue of dailies as not to waste it.
Having played minus dailies I wouldn't go back...
You should try it,
S.
What happens when someone wants to play a Barbarian? All the Rage powers are Dailies.
Daily powers may not increase a character's overall power level much, but they're great for getting yourself out of a jam. A daily can help counteract a series of bad rolls, and even when you miss with them, they still do something. They also have effects that last until the end of the encounter or until a save, whereas most encounters only last a round.
If you want to drop them for realism sake, feel free (personally, I'm not too concerned about realism in this case, but hey, to each his own). But if you're dropping them to deal with your players stopping too often, I really think you'd be better served using one of the many good suggestions people have given in this thread.
Have the monsters set up an ambush for when the PCs get back, or send some assassins to interrupt them from sleeping, or put a time limit on the adventure, but whatever you do, don't reward them with extra encounter powers or healing surges for what basically amounts to metagaming.