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Wraithstrike, in an attempt to address the recent halt in PDF sales by WoTC, has apparently reached Mr. Leeds and is going to speak with him in the future about that very topic. As I understand it, he's taking suggestions from the community in an attempt to redress this issue.
So, I was thinking this would be a good opportunity to address what you'd like to see from WoTC, in regards to how it has handled the PDF issue, as well as other recent, community perceived, "Blunders."
For what it's worth, this isn't an attempt to jump-start the edition wars or to pour hate on WoTC. Constructive suggestions, however, are welcome.
So, if you were talking with Mr.Leeds, what would you be suggesting?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If nothing else, it'd be nice if they could be convinced to put the older pdfs on sale. That part of the decision doesn't make any sense to me (well, to be fair, none of the decision makes sense to me, but taking away the older pdfs seems particularly nutty - I find it unlikely they have old warehouses full of those books which they are still selling, and removing the pds forces people into the secondary market or pirating).
I'm not hopeful that anything will change given the intereview with Leeds on ENWorld, but, who knows, maybe reason will penetrate corp-speak and make a difference for once.
Edit: BTW, who is Wraithstrike and how did he manage to set up a conversation with Leeds?
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If nothing else, it'd be nice if they could be convinced to put the older pdfs on sale. That part of the decision doesn't make any sense to me (well, to be fair, none of the decision makes sense to me, but taking away the older pdfs seems particularly nutty - I find it unlikely they have old warehouses full of those books which they are still selling, and removing the pds forces people into the secondary market or pirating).
I'm not hopeful that anything will change given the intereview with Leeds on ENWorld, but, who knows, maybe reason will penetrate corp-speak and make a difference for once.
Edit: BTW, who is Wraithstrike and how did he manage to set up a conversation with Leeds?
One of the posters from the last thread. Apparently he successfully got the corporate emails (again, from the last thread) and wrote directly. He made a post on Enworld (again, last thread) detailing it. (He gave me credit for the idea, although it wasn't my idea. Either way, the point got across.)
I don't know what's going to happen, if anything, but I was hoping for some constructive, well-worded suggestions. Perhaps he could build a list and address the issues.
Myself, I don't care about the current edition (I play Pathfinder), but I would like to see the older editions available for a reasonable cost. Perhaps, even, the "price of a cup of coffee."
Technically, it wasn't Wraithstrike. It was Brix from 3Point75.org.
And since I noticed it among the "stuff" of that thread, let me repost Brix's latest post:
UPDATE:
In order to make it easier for me to file your ideas and solutions about how to pimp WotC please refer to the following topics only:* 4E (WoW-like game not liked by many)
* Licence issues (OGL, GSL)
* Setting support (e.g. New Forgotten Realms alienating old fans)
* pdf policy
* Layoffs of fan favorite designers
* Cancellation of print magazines
* D&D InsiderThanks.
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Technically, it wasn't Wraithstrike. It was Brix from 3Point75.org.
And since I noticed it among the "stuff" of that thread, let me repost Brix's latest post:
UPDATE:
In order to make it easier for me to file your ideas and solutions about how to pimp WotC please refer to the following topics only:* 4E (WoW-like game not liked by many)
* Licence issues (OGL, GSL)
* Setting support (e.g. New Forgotten Realms alienating old fans)
* pdf policy
* Layoffs of fan favorite designers
* Cancellation of print magazines
* D&D InsiderThanks.
Thanks for the clarification!! I missed that it was Brix!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Ack. I hope it doesn't end up being that laundry list of grievances. If there's a difference to be made, it's going to require a short, to the point conversation on a concrete issue. I doubt anything productive will come of bringing up all those ancillaries - it's not like they're going to rehire old staff or bring back the mags. Better to go after the bird (almost) in the hand than the half dozen in the bush.
WotC has been in a mode of "ignore those fans, they'll b#!*! about everything" for a while now. This sounds like a limited opportunity to actually get their attention about something that can be fixed relatively easily and demonstrate that there is a contingent of reasonable but critical fans out there.
If this relatively simple issue can be resolved, then maybe try to discuss one of the others. But for now, keep it short and simple. The CEO isn't going to waste time discussing most of the items in that list, and bringing them up will just reinforce the institutional belief that only the angry unreasonable fans are upset about the pdfs being pulled.
I just keep hitting the first item on that list and unable to consider anything after. With that item, I don't expect any useful list of grievances coming forth.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I just keep hitting the first item on that list and unable to consider anything after. With that item, I don't expect any useful list of grievances coming forth.
Yeah, that's why I ultimately ignored the post as flame-bait on the other thread. That's going to be a non-starter and won't resolve anything with regards to the pdfs. All it will do is close off this line of communication altogether.
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Ack. I hope it doesn't end up being that laundry list of grievances. If there's a difference to be made, it's going to require a short, to the point conversation on a concrete issue. I doubt anything productive will come of bringing up all those ancillaries - it's not like they're going to rehire old staff or bring back the mags. Better to go after the bird (almost) in the hand than the half dozen in the bush.
WotC has been in a mode of "ignore those fans, they'll b!!&* about everything" for a while now. This sounds like a limited opportunity to actually get their attention about something that can be fixed relatively easily and demonstrate that there is a contingent of reasonable but critical fans out there.
If this relatively simple issue can be resolved, then maybe try to discuss one of the others. But for now, keep it short and simple. The CEO isn't going to waste time discussing most of the items in that list, and bringing them up will just reinforce the institutional belief that only the angry unreasonable fans are upset about the pdfs being pulled.
I think you're right.
Allowing us once again to purchase old edition (i.e. before 3e) PDFs would at least be a conciliatory gesture. I'm not likely to buy into 4e either way, but at least I would be a bit less annoyed with them.
I don't see much else on the laundry list above that WotC can easily retreat from at this point, except maybe issuing a more favorable 3rd party licensing agreement. I don't think they are going to pull back from 4e, or do anything to it that will make it an attractive product for those who haven't already switched, at least in the next 2-3 years. They certainly aren't going to publish for both editions simultaneously at this point--Paizo has already captured the 3e holdouts that haven't just stopped buying new stuff entirely, and Paizo has a much stronger relationship with this clientele than WotC ever had with theirs. I'd love to see the print magazines back, and might subscribe even if they were 4e focused, but I think 18 months off the bookstore shelves makes trying to get back into the print magazine market a money-losing business proposition at this point (and therefore a non-starter).
WotC doesn't need to pimp their product, they need to change their attitude toward the customer, starting with delivering the products that their existing customers want. If you can't keep your existing customers happy, how are you going to get new people to buy? Of course, the problem now is that a significant part of their existing customer base, I think has been lost already because we've been abandoned. It's even harder to get an abandoned/lost customer back than to attract a new one. Ask Rick Wagoner.
And since I noticed it among the "stuff" of that thread, let me repost Brix's latest post:
Technically the only conversation I remember on this from that thread was someone misstating what the current GSL is, and especially given that this was so many pages in, this really should have been put into it's own thread from the beginning.
Also it might have seem more reaction if it didn't seem to be just provoking another set of arguments. Especially the first item on the list, that makes it seem pathetic and more comical than the smuurf posts.
Thanks for the clarification!! I missed that it was Brix!
It was easy to do. Wraithstrike, alias of concerno if I recall, was the first to link to the ENWorld thread started by Brix.
I just didn't want any misrepresentation of credit, or blame, like you received by Brix for the mailing WotC idea. That was... ... Hell, I don't remember. And I sure don't feel like wading through 5 pages of smvrf to find it now.
I agree with the above. I'd like a place to purchase pre-4th edition material. If worse comes to worse, even pre-3rd edition material would satisfy me.
I don't care where that place is, just that the price for such material is reasonable.
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Thanks for the clarification!! I missed that it was Brix!It was easy to do. Wraithstrike, alias of concerno if I recall, was the first to link to the ENWorld thread started by Brix.
I just didn't want any misrepresentation of credit, or blame, like you received by Brix for the mailing WotC idea. That was... ... Hell, I don't remember. And I sure don't feel like wading through 5 pages of smvrf to find it now.
Yeah, I made mention in the last thread that it wasn't originally my idea. I don't have an account at Enworld (and don't really want one), so I didn't correct that, there.
(Yeah, I don't want to wade through 33 pages of posts, either).
I guess I have completely missed something. I was under the impression WotC wanted to bring pdf sales ‘in-house’. DriveThruRPG and RPGNow demonstrated how pdf sales could be profitable and now WotC wants a larger chunk of that profit. It may just take them some time to bring it online.
I guess I have completely missed something. I was under the impression WotC wanted to bring pdf sales ‘in-house’. DriveThruRPG and RPGNow demonstrated how pdf sales could be profitable and now WotC wants a larger chunk of that profit. It may just take them some time to bring it online.
That could very well be true.
But how much time should we give them?
I know of a handful of people, at least, who are still giving them time to bring the virtual tabletop online.
My suggestion would be to point out the following:
1. About 6 million people play D&D (this is by WotC own estimates).
2. Of those about 50% play 4e.
3. This means that about 50% do not play 4e, i.e. they play older editions.
4. Currently those older editions are out of print, thus not giving WotC any money from those players for print products (they are bought second hand). That means there are about 3 million potential product purchasing customers that are not being served and WotC is not collecting their hard earned money.
5. The best way, without continuing to print new material for these additions, is to have an electronic format that is available for purchase.
6. Electronic formats that are not easy to use or obtain are going to turn off the majority of the potential customers. Thus new formats should be avoided, thus saving money on research and develop as well.
7. Thus in order for WotC to serve all of the D&D playing population, and profiting from their money, they should make out of print material available in an easy to obtain, reasonably priced, industry standard format. The easiest, and thus most successful way to do this, is to allow pdf sales, through pdf vendors of out of print material.
Reading through the ENWorld thread, I think the following might be the most clever suggestion:
"Tell me about your history with D&D. What versions have you played? What was your favorite character?"
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Wraithstrike, in an attempt to address the recent halt in PDF sales by WoTC, has apparently reached Mr. Leeds and is going to speak with him in the future about that very topic. As I understand it, he's taking suggestions from the community in an attempt to redress this issue.
So, I was thinking this would be a good opportunity to address what you'd like to see from WoTC, in regards to how it has handled the PDF issue, as well as other recent, community perceived, "Blunders."
For what it's worth, this isn't an attempt to jump-start the edition wars or to pour hate on WoTC. Constructive suggestions, however, are welcome.
So, if you were talking with Mr.Leeds, what would you be suggesting?
I am not talking to Mr.Leeds directly. Someone from Enworld is. The link I posted is a way to give your thoughts to Enworld so they can be passed to Mr.Leeds. Sorry if I was not clear, and I would have responded sooner had I known anyone was thinking I had any direct contact with Mr.Leeds.
PS: I stand corrected. It was may have been another website that got the ball rolling.
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My suggestion would be to point out the following:
1. About 6 million people play D&D (this is by WotC own estimates).2. Of those about 50% play 4e.
3. This means that about 50% do not play 4e, i.e. they play older editions.
4. Currently those older editions are out of print, thus not giving WotC any money from those players for print products (they are bought second hand). That means there are about 3 million potential product purchasing customers that are not being served and WotC is not collecting their hard earned money.
5. The best way, without continuing to print new material for these additions, is to have an electronic format that is available for purchase.
6. Electronic formats that are not easy to use or obtain are going to turn off the majority of the potential customers. Thus new formats should be avoided, thus saving money on research and develop as well.
7. Thus in order for WotC to serve all of the D&D playing population, and profiting from their money, they should make out of print material available in an easy to obtain, reasonably priced, industry standard format. The easiest, and thus most successful way to do this, is to allow pdf sales, through pdf vendors of out of print material.
I think this is a great start, and that this issue is the only one we should really concentrate on. I like your methods too, pres man. WotC is a business, and a large one at that, so the only way we can hope to convince them of our side is by convincing them that they stand to profit more that way.
I guess I have completely missed something. I was under the impression WotC wanted to bring pdf sales ‘in-house’. DriveThruRPG and RPGNow demonstrated how pdf sales could be profitable and now WotC wants a larger chunk of that profit. It may just take them some time to bring it online.
Leeds said in an interview that WotC will not publish any PDFs in the future, neiter of old nor of current books. It seems that they are searching for an electronic format which is much harder to pirate than PDFs.
So: No, no PDF sales "in-house".
I agree with the above. I'd like a place to purchase pre-4th edition material. If worse comes to worse, even pre-3rd edition material would satisfy me.
I don't care where that place is, just that the price for such material is reasonable.
Mulling this over maybe WoTC is concerned about 3E stuff competing with 4E, by its material support for other endeavours such as Pathfinder.
If WoTC would make it available great. If not, perhaps they would consider the pre-3E material.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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My beef with the way they handled dropping PDF sales is not so much that they stopped selling PDFs. While I don't agree with that decision, it's their prerogative.
However, what really annoys me is that they are no longer allowing customers to download pdf copies of *already purchased* content. That, to me, seems unnecessarily harsh and generates an awful lot of bad-will, from my point of view. When I purchase a pdf from a company like Paizo that allows me to re-download the file as often as I wish, it really feels like a breach of confidence (if not contract) to remove my ability to download said pdf.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
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Question for Mr. Leeds:
Does Wizards of the Coast have a target market for the D&D lines, in terms of age group?Question for Mr. Leeds:
If Wizards of the Coast has a target market for the D&D lines, in terms of age group, have you thought through how much disposable income your target age group likely has, and the respect and style of discussion that such a target group might prefer to have with the publisher?Question for Mr. Leeds:
Wizards of the Coast appear to have recently had a number of misadventures with their D&D line, ranging from riling players of former editions during the prerelease of 4E, to the GSL debacle (late when it did arrive, and in need of revision to get many third party publishers on board), the delays and failings of the promised Digital Initiative and the current PDF public relations disaster.
Has Wizards of the Coast considered the possibility of shutting down their D&D division and instead leasing out any trademarks to a friendly company such as Goodman Games or Necromancer in return for a cut of the profits of any products produced?
I like questions 1 and 2. I think 3 might be interesting to ask, albeit potentially harmful if asked in the wrong tone.
Well, I guess if you're a FR fan and still interested in doing significant business with WotC, there's something there, otherwise, not much. (Which is what I think most of us expected.) I for one am glad to hear that they will not come back and parallel support 3e -- may they stick with that.
* Wizards can't make anybody happy.
Is that a Freudian slip on your part or his? =D
And of course the question what would happen with all the nice pre-Spellplague Realmslore. I suggested that they sell it off, and well it seems they embraced the idea.
Republish and sell, or sell it off? I'm a bit confused here.
OK, thanks.
Wasn't there some giant FR encyclopedia that was compiled?
No, not that. I remember reading somewhere that a huge encyclopedia (I want to say multiple big binders) was put together in house to keep consistency at some point--perhaps if was for across realms fiction.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Thank you Brix,
A 'semi-official 2008 never happened' Realms would be appriciated by me at least. Though I'll admit, I've not looked at my FR books since I read about the spellplauge. I even gave up on the Empyrian Odessey trilogy, because it looked to lead to the Deity soap opera. Yes, 'fwooming' the Realms burned me out that bad. Plus I have my new pulpy world to play in.
looking at the other points.
* Wizards is happy with the 4E sales. Wizards is even fine with the fact that a fraction of the gamers went to Paizo. As long as everybody plays D&D that's fine.
I'm going to call this corporate speak. It's like Coke saying "We're happy with our sales and fine that some of our customer base went to Pepsi." He's not honestly going to say "We really hated losing customer base."
And is Pathfinder "D&D"? I mean in the sense of 'Is True20 D&D' or 'Is WFRPG D&D'.
Wizards tries to evolve the game every ten years or so. Greg compared it to bands that change their style over the years, and thus loose old fans and get some new fans. But in the end Wizards hope to get everyone back.
<snark> Ah yes, I remember the big hair and spandex days of D&D fondly. Was Drizzt the beginning of the Goth era?</snark>
* Wizards will not resume pdf sales in the same way they did before. Obviously Wizards believes that there are possibilities to sale electronic content that is mostly pirate-proof.
Withholding judgement until I see the final product. If I have to subscribe to DDI to get the product frex, then forget it.
* Wizards will not support 3E parallel to 4E.
No one should be surprised at this. However I'd like it if WotC did open up some closed content to open content. I know the odds of this happening are slim and none.
maybe WotC is a secret stakeholder of Paizo *evil grin*
Paizo has no shareholders...Only Vic and Lisa! (Say it like "ONLY ZOOL" - it sounds better. :P )
Ha-HA! More fuel for the ever-burning "What's the real D&D?" fire!