Sea Based Adventures

[dungeonmaster heathy]

Spoiler for my pbp....

Spoiler:

if you make some sahuagin chaotic evil demon worshippers instead of lawful evil,.....you can make a sahuagin frenzied berserker...

[Bellona]

dungeonmaster heathy wrote:

Spoiler for my pbp....

** spoiler omitted **

Ouch!

[Molech]

Mr. Fish,

Regarding what ship to use, I'd have a chit chat with the Players discussing not necessarily what they think sounds good but what the differences in ship type will imply for game-play: what kind of adventures and encounters are going to lend themselves to this kind of boat or that type of ship .... and just have a dialog on what you all would expect.
Do you and the Players figure a small, fast riverboat or longboat would feature small encounters (only a few NPCs) and no NPC crewman, a relatively small region of the campaign map, and no worries about navies, port fees, large scale combat, etc.?
Compare to a large vessel with a crew of NPCs and all the roleplaying possibilites (including paying for lots o' food and dealing with mutinies), having to register with port cities and having gams with other large ships on the open sea?

I've done two things in the past; one, start with a small boat at low levels and as the campaign "gets bigger" the ships change (not my favorite). Also, I've allowed the PCs to not own a boat themselves but be friends with a few different NPC captains (or commodores), allowing the PCs to have various sea experiences without having to be "tied" to the ship and to deal with the (I think) cumbersome and boring realities of ship maintenance.

-W. E. Ray

[Heathansson]

I just kinda don't worry about all the boat upkeep stuff and say "ogay, you need to pull over in a lagoon and careen your hull" if I have something for them to do there.
There's an IRL saying: there's two happy days in a boat owner's life...I've been there done that where you dick around for 3 hours provisioning your boat for a river journey only to have it taken away by Giant Pike worshippers in the city you arrive at cos you killed a giant pike on the way there.

[MrFish]

I guess I'm interested in what the players want because it's a big deal to them. One player in particular who rarely picks out anything she wants was specific about really liking the idea, enjoying adventure stories about ships and the sea and so on. I realize what you're saying, Heathansson because the Conan/Elric/etc motiff of 'get a ship/military unit, lose it as the basis for the story' is common enough in fantasy.

The pcs are hiring a Sailing Master for it anyway (who is a merchantman officer they rescued from being a galley slave) so there'll be an npc to take care of the nuts and bolts of running the ship. I figured out a general upkeep chart for maintenance so more or less they just have to each pitch in a sum of cash for that. Really as with most things I'm more thinking in terms of:

1. combat (how much space is on the ship, what armaments, range of said, etc)

2. movement (how fast can it move and under what conditions)

3. cargo space (is it big enough to say bring along a number of horses, pieces of large equipment, etc)

4. crew (how many npcs exactly do we need for it)

I have varied adventures in mind, from my current intrigue laden game (pcs vs. the local thieves guild/corrupt city watch) as they are trying to obtain their ship to voyages, stops at islands, large and small ports, adventures that happen entirely at sea.

[FabesMinis]

Dungeon 21 - Incident at Strathern Point
Weird goings on at and the tragic history of a coastal tower. Memory eludes me, but it might be a lighthouse.

Dungeon 58 - Caveat Emptor
Set in a small port, lycanthropes are on the loose!

[Rezdave]

MrFish wrote:

The pcs are hiring a Sailing Master for it anyway (who is a merchantman officer they rescued from being a galley slave) so there'll be an npc to take care of the nuts and bolts of running the ship.

This really is the best way to go, but I'd take it further. Unless the PCs themselves have significant nautical experience (i.e. 2-3 levels as Experts), they need to remain as far away from running the ship as possible.

They should hire a Captain, a Pilot/Navigator, a Mate, a Bosun and a crew of Deckhands at the very least. They might want to hire a Cook as well.

They can probably cover the roles of Surgeon, maybe Quartermaster, Sergeant-at-Arms and defensive, scouting and many foraging duties themselves.

If the PCs have enough money, they can, of course, be the owners of the ship, so the Captain answers to them. However, I'd really put all of these duties in the hands of NPCs (even if they are controlled by Players) so that the ship can function entirely without the Party if the circumstances of the campaign dictate it ("Captain, sail around this peninsula. We shall go ashore and explore the interior, seeking the Lost Temple of Kaput and foraging for supplies, and meet you on the other side in three weeks time. We shall keep a signal fire burning so that you may find us.")

MrFish wrote:

1. combat (how much space is on the ship, what armaments, range of said, etc)

You'll want a large enough ship in terms of deck-space that you can have some interesting combat on the decks and have a little room to maneuver. Remember that the NPC crew can move through "friendly" squares to flee monsters and boarders if necessary, though they might provoke AoOs in doing so ("This is for Able Seaman Dudley, you cowardly pirate!")

IF you have rules for and want to run a lot of ship-to-ship combat then consider armaments ... otherwise the PCs are the armaments. Look into magic spells and items and ammunition they can utilized to project destruction across the waves from a seeming-unarmed vessel (particularly if pirate-hunting is a favored mission).

MrFish wrote:

2. movement (how fast can it move and under what conditions)

Depends upon the desires of the Players. Do they want a big cargo-ship that is slow but can be at sea for a long time and so what if monsters or pirates can attack them with ease because they can defend themselves, or do they want something small and sleek that can get where it wants to be fast?

I'd opt for the former, since in this case the journey and not the destination is the goal. A bigger but slower ship accomplishes Goal #1, lets you carry enough supplies to remain away from port longer, and makes you slow enough that monsters and pirate can catch and attempt to board you which allows every group member to take part in combat in a more traditional fashion rather than the one Player who is "steering" the ship in a naval encounter (I assume the party can't afford a fleet).

Also, big and slow would be less expensive for them.

MrFish wrote:

3. cargo space (is it big enough to say bring along a number of horses, pieces of large equipment, etc)

See above. You do need to consider if they are an Adventuring ship, and Exploring ship, or what I call an "Adventuring/Trader", meaning that they actually carry trade goods to exchange in unknown, newly-discovered, dangerous and/or hard-to-reach ports. Do they seek to make money from trading or from traditional adventuring hordes?

In my campaigns that involved sea voyages and so forth, the PCs were generally hired onto or themselves became Adventuring Traders. They had "adventures" that gave them XP but little if any reward on the journey, and then exchanged their trade goods in foreign places and on their return for cash. Of course, provisions, supplies and adventuring gear take up a lot of room, so that concept of the "adventuring trader" is that you're gaining experience on the voyage as part of the reward, but also that you have a greater likelihood of returning from the journey than a regular trader on the same route. You might make only 1/3rd the profit of a fully-laden cargo ship or caravan, but you have a 3-4x greater chance of surviving the journey.

MrFish wrote:

4. crew (how many npcs exactly do we need for it)

I have varied adventures in mind, from my current intrigue laden game (pcs vs. the local thieves guild/corrupt city watch) as they are trying to obtain their ship to voyages, stops at islands, large and small ports, adventures that happen entirely at sea.

I addressed this in #1 above. It will depend upon the size of the ship you get what crew will be needed, but IMHO they should start the voyage with 3-4x the number of sailors needed to operate with a "skeleton crew".

THIS and THIS links should be helpful for inspiration of the various options. I use them frequently.

Again, the ship should be able to operate independently of the PCs if necessary. Chances are none of the PCs has the skills and experience needed to crew or command it anyway. They will need to hire NPC Experts who are 3rd-5th level to be Captain, Navigator, Bosun and so forth. Of course, you could make these "Player-controlled NPCs" if you desire. It might be somewhat fun if their at-sea battles had the Wizard casting spells herself, while the Fighters and Rogues took over the roles of Captain (coordinating the fight), Helmsman (steering the ship and positioning the miniature from turn-to-turn, acting only on the commands of the Captain and perhaps now always being in the intended square since the "Captain" is not allowed to touch the battle mat and say "put-it-there"), Gunnery Officers (determining targets per the Captain's orders and rolling dice for the crewed-weapons), etc.

HTH,

Rez

[MrFish]

I clearly need to make a trip to the game store, it seems like a lot of those old issues of Dungeon have a lot of nautical adventures in them! Thanks for further posts.

As for your advice, Rezdave, thanks very much its extremely helpful! I have one player with enough expert to help lead deck crew while another has skill with artillery but none who are skilled with actually operating/commanding the ship, so in a way it's helpful that they can simply hire npcs for that.

Thanks as well for the links. I'm kind of interested in the following types:

- caravel
- cog
-carrack

Though the last might be a little big. A caravel or cog might be perfect for them. I have one old 2e adventure that has a brig in it I think (a Ravenloft adventure) but I may have that be a major encounter rather than a ship they actually take.

[Rezdave]

MrFish wrote:

I have one old 2e adventure that has a brig in it ... but I may have that be a major encounter rather than a ship they actually take.

Alter the details of the deck plans a little, and there's no reason it can't be both.

Here's a few adventures that had good deck plans in them:

Spoiler:

Dungeon 034 - Lady Rose, The

Dungeon 036 - Sea of Sorrow, The

Dungeon 050 - Vaka's Curse, The

Dungeon 052 - Spirits of the Tempest

Dungeon 066 - Sunken Shadow, The

Dungeon 080 - Fortune Favors the Dead

Dungeon 123 - Salvage Operation

Dungeon 139 - Darkmaiden’s Dance - Merchant Caravel - Modest but accurate merchant vessel.

Dungeon 139 - There is No Honor - Savage Tide pt. 1

Dungeon 141 - Sea Wyvern Poster Map - Poster map of a galley for Sea Wyvern’s Wake adventure.

Polyhedron 107 - Dead Man’s Quest

I excluded all of the Spelljammer-related adventures, but a few of the deck-plans are interesting. I ran a story-arc that went to sea in a crashed Hammership. None of the PCs (well, no one in that region of the world, actually) knew what it was, really, but it looked cool and "fantasy". Another party recovered a crashed Nautiloid and were trying to refurbish it for the sea (having no clue what it was doing found in the mountains), cutting off the upper shell and mounting it with out-riggers as a trimaran to keep it stable but we never had enough time to play out the scenario.

FWIW,

Rez

[MrFish]

I have the deck plans for:

Darkmaiden's Dance
Sea Wyvern
Ravenloft's Sea of Horror
U1 (Sea Ghost, more a riverine or small coastal ship)

I'd also like to find a deck plan for a decent sized galley of some kind. Do any of those adventures have one?

[FabesMinis]

The Lady Rose has one - a huge galleon by D&D standards.

[delabarre]

The Teeth of Araska is a ship-based pirate mini adventure in Pathfinder #14.

[@stroVal]

Might be a little irrelevant with most of the discussions here ; but what did you think of the Sea-wolves in Stormwrack?
Lame or good idea?
(remember the sea-lion and sea-cat?)

[pres man]

@stroVal wrote:

Might be a little irrelevant with most of the discussions here ; but what did you think of the Sea-wolves in Stormwrack?

Lame or good idea?
(remember the sea-lion and sea-cat?)

I thought it was kind of uninteresting. Were-wolves, fine. But sea adventures should have things like were-sharks, were-squid, were-dolphins, etc. A were-wolf-seal, a bit lame.

[Digitalelf]

Fantasy Flight Games put out the "Seafarer's Handbook" for their "Legends & Lairs" line. It was written for 3.0, but still has a lot of good info (including deck plans)...

AEG had a whole line of d20 "7th Sea" products (some even included deck plans)! Most were for 3.0, but the later supplements were 3.5 compatible...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

[Digitalelf]

MrFish wrote:

I'd also like to find a deck plan for a decent sized galley of some kind.

There's one here...

[DM Jeff]

OK, let's see.

If you can dig up "En Route II", it's a 3.0 adventure anthology collection from Atlas Games, half of them are set on the sea.

"Secrets of Smuggler's Cove" 3.5, Dungeon Crawl Clasics #7 from Goodman Games.

"Bloody Jack's Gold" 3.5, Dungeon Crawl Classics #4 from also from Goodman.

And there's a great book by Necromancer Games called "Dead Man's Chest" which has 3 adventures and loads of maritime stuff in it. I used this book a lot, it was a great resource.

-DM Jeff

[@stroVal]

pres man wrote:

@stroVal wrote:

Might be a little irrelevant with most of the discussions here ; but what did you think of the Sea-wolves in Stormwrack?

Lame or good idea?
(remember the sea-lion and sea-cat?)

I thought it was kind of uninteresting. Were-wolves, fine. But sea adventures should have things like were-sharks, were-squid, were-dolphins, etc. A were-wolf-seal, a bit lame.

yeah..especially the fur-underwater thing.

on a brighter note:In greek the word for salt dog(or sea dog) is sea-wolf xD

PS:I found a kick-arse kit for a seamage (adnd though)in one of my old dragon issues,but I don't seem to find anything close to that in 3.5. Conversion time?

[hedgeknight]

Digitalelf wrote:

Fantasy Flight Games put out the "Seafarer's Handbook" for their "Legends & Lairs" line. It was written for 3.0, but still has a lot of good info (including deck plans)...

AEG had a whole line of d20 "7th Sea" products (some even included deck plans)! Most were for 3.0, but the later supplements were 3.5 compatible...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

Speaking of AEG...I got a bunch of their Swashbuckling Adventure accessories for sale on eBay. My username is garyfran. The books I have are in Near Mint condition and start off cheap at $1.99.

And Digitalelf is right - the Seafarer's Handbook is very good.

[Bellona]

@stroVal wrote:

Might be a little irrelevant with most of the discussions here ; but what did you think of the Sea-wolves in Stormwrack?

Lame or good idea?
(remember the sea-lion and sea-cat?)

pres man wrote:

I thought it was kind of uninteresting. Were-wolves, fine. But sea adventures should have things like were-sharks, were-squid, were-dolphins, etc. A were-wolf-seal, a bit lame.

@stroVal wrote:

yeah..especially the fur-underwater thing.

on a brighter note:In greek the word for salt dog(or sea dog) is sea-wolf xD

PS:I found a kick-arse kit for a seamage (adnd though)in one of my old dragon issues,but I don't seem to find anything close to that in 3.5. Conversion time?

The sea-wolf was most likely just meant as an update from earlier editions (I known that I have their earlier stats somewhere). That was the nifty thing about some of the splatbooks - seeing old monsters updated to the new edition. As to how useful/logical some of those monsters are - that's a whole different subject! :)

With regard to the Sea-Mage:
I would aim for either the Stormcaster or the Sea Witch prestige classes (Stormwrack), and use such feats as Ship's Mage, Storm Magic, and Steam Magic (same source). The Aquatic Spellcasting feat (Lords of Madness, the aberration splatbook) could also be useful, but I would houserule a hefty pre-requisite for that one (like 9 or more skill ranks in Spellcasting, and possibly Knowledge/Nature too).

[MrFish]

Thanks very much everyone for the discussion, ideas and links. It's been of great benefit. I'm going to have this be a large part of at least some of the siege campaign I'm running. The pcs will be involved with an effort to hunt down enemy raiders and prevent them from using a nearby area where harbours exist.

[Nicolas Logue]

Rathendar wrote:

Louis Agresta wrote:

Nick Logue's Razor Coast is due out from Sinister Adventures in the not too distant future.

hahahahahahaha

*deep breath*

hahahahahahahahahaha!!

Actually when it comes out, RC will be perfect for what you are looking for. Also, the sinister indulgences from the same site have a few of the seaside flavor you want. Have you also considered the Freeport products?

LOL!

Razor Coast is finally a'coming. You can pre-order it now and save $10. Also, you can it Pathfinder Compatible. You get PDFs of multiple systems, and when the book ships you pick which printed version you want.

Check some previews for it here: Sinister's Sneak Peek's Blog

Also if you are interested in some high seas goodness you might want to scope out the Indulgences. Mysteries of the Razor Sea delivers a load of sea-based madness including a kickass 1st level surivival horror adventure on a derelict ghost ship, and Death Beneath the Waves (from the undeniably genius Wolfgang Baur) has all sorts of sea-based goodies. Dajobas zips you a hideous Shark God for any sea-faring campaign. You can get these goodies on paizo.com as well.

I would also heavily recommend Greg Vaughn's break out adventure "Tammeraut's Fate" - so good.

[MrFish]

Tammeraut's Fate is one of my favourite adventures, and I DID run it with really cool results. One of the best parts of it is the classic 'trapped in the crappy building by undead with the half crazed survivors' part. There's nothing like having npcs go "We're all gonna die!" to liven up a game evening.

[Nicolas Logue]

MrFish wrote:

Tammeraut's Fate is one of my favourite adventures, and I DID run it with really cool results. One of the best parts of it is the classic 'trapped in the crappy building by undead with the half crazed survivors' part. There's nothing like having npcs go "We're all gonna die!" to liven up a game evening.

Yep. I remember reading that adventure and thinking: "I HATE GREG VAUGHN WITH THE HEAT OF A NOVA!" ;-)

If you dug Tammeraut, you'd LOVE Mysteries of the Razor Sea. I'm biased obviously, but no joke, it's a pretty wild dark horror high seas adventure. Scope some reviews of it here if you want more details: Mysteries of the Razor Sea

[@stroVal]

Bellona wrote:

@stroVal wrote:

Might be a little irrelevant with most of the discussions here ; but what did you think of the Sea-wolves in Stormwrack?

Lame or good idea?
(remember the sea-lion and sea-cat?)

pres man wrote:

I thought it was kind of uninteresting. Were-wolves, fine. But sea adventures should have things like were-sharks, were-squid, were-dolphins, etc. A were-wolf-seal, a bit lame.

@stroVal wrote:

yeah..especially the fur-underwater thing.

on a brighter note:In greek the word for salt dog(or sea dog) is sea-wolf xD

PS:I found a kick-arse kit for a seamage (adnd though)in one of my old dragon issues,but I don't seem to find anything close to that in 3.5. Conversion time?

The sea-wolf was most likely just meant as an update from earlier editions (I known that I have their earlier stats somewhere). That was the nifty thing about some of the splatbooks - seeing old monsters updated to the new edition. As to how useful/logical some of those monsters are - that's a whole different subject! :)

With regard to the Sea-Mage:
I would aim for either the Stormcaster or the Sea Witch prestige classes (Stormwrack), and use such feats as Ship's Mage, Storm Magic, and Steam Magic (same source). The Aquatic Spellcasting feat (Lords of Madness, the aberration splatbook) could also be useful, but I would houserule a hefty pre-requisite for that one (like 9 or more skill ranks in Spellcasting, and possibly Knowledge/Nature too).

Didn't have the time to get involved with this one during the Summer.At first I was thinking of making a prestige class but I am not convinced it fits the whole thing.Considering an alternative to the wizard with a few different spells and options...well just like what the kits where supposed to do in adnd I guess.Not sure as I've never done something this 'drastic' in my Home rules so far.

[@stroVal]

Molech wrote:

I've done two things in the past; one, start with a small boat at low levels and as the campaign "gets bigger" the ships change (not my favorite). Also, I've allowed the PCs to not own a boat themselves but be friends with a few different NPC captains (or commodores), allowing the PCs to have various sea experiences without having to be "tied" to the ship and to deal with the (I think) cumbersome and boring realities of ship maintenance.

-W. E. Ray

I am currently using the first idea.The ships get bigger and each new location has a workshop in its harbor where they can repair and upgrade(weapons armour etc.)I must say its a pain having to play enemies AND the crew npcs on naval encounters;(not the mention planning of so many other things) moreover my PCs tended to rely on them and ask for assistance on other quests.I don't advance the crew npcs any further than their original level though(I think there is a similar suggestion in Stormwrack?)so PCs eventually just use the crew when they travel(that's what they are paid for in the first place) and adventure on their own in each location they anchor.Its hard work but most of the time I find it rewarding.