Now if you, or anyone else, would like to post links such as I have of any Christian sect rampaging about, sawing people's heads off, blowing themselves up in marketplaces, and the like, and if you would like to add additional links showing a lack of unequivocal condemnation of such behavior, feel free. Really, go right ahead.
Yes, obviously no self-proclaimed Christian would ever bomb abortion clinics, for example -- nor would "moderates" shelter the perpetrators.
I condemn any violence -- regardless of what sect or ideology is used as a cover, it's usually an act of terrified people trying desperately to convince themselves that they're not really afraid of the big, scary world, or of their inability to make themselves feel safe by making sure everyone else is just like them.
Do Muslims only use Macs?Why isn't there a flag option of "The poodle's mouth is moving?"
Typical! Everybody pick on the poodles.
Typical! Everybody pick on the poodles.Do Muslims only use Macs?Why isn't there a flag option of "The poodle's mouth is moving?"
Zo, ven did zis martyr complex begin? Iz martyr still an acceptable word?
Make that last line read "Don't reduce a fill in the blank" and you've got great advice on how to relate to anyone, be they Muslim, Christian, Jew, Black, White, Asian, etc....
Exactly my point.
If Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, Vishnu, Cthulhu, L. Ron Hubbard, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, ect. can't handle some fun being poked at them, I question their qualifications for our respect.
If someone requests to be left alone, do you question their qualificaitons to have their wishes respected or do you ridicule them for not being social? Say someone did ridiculed the person and later found out that they recently lost someone close to them and needed time to mourn in seclusion. The only word used to describe the ridiculer is "D***". Our culture considers those grieving the loss of someone close to them to be off limits as far as ridicule.
Mulsims (even moderates) have made it clear that pictures of their prophet are off limits as far as ridicule goes. Respect their wishes. Personalities like al Sadr, bin Ladin, Ahmadinejad are not off limits. Ridicule them; leave their prophet alone.
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Mulsims (even moderates) have made it clear that pictures of their prophet are off limits as far as ridicule goes. Respect their wishes. Personalities like al Sadr, bin Ladin, Ahmadinejad are not off limits. Ridicule them; leave their prophet alone.
Just as a reminder, moderate is one of those words the article said was off-limits. This has been a friendly reminder.
Respect their wishes.
As soon as they respect my wishes and give up the idea of an Allah.
What if they started worshiping poodles?
I would make fun of them.
I believe I am closest to agreement with Buddha in that religious dogma is absurd. Religion’s purpose is to give us some moral code and try to answer questions that we do not have answers for yet. I would like to think the human race has matured enough to create a mutually acceptable moral code and accept that we just do not understand everything without the need of an imaginary father figure as a crutch.
Respect their wishes.As soon as they respect my wishes and give up the idea of an Allah.
Congratulations, you win the "Ugly American Award". I'm out of this thread.
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I believe I am closest to agreement with Buddha in that religious dogma is absurd. Religion’s purpose is to give us some moral code and try to answer questions that we do not have answers for yet. I would like to think the human race has matured enough to create a mutually acceptable moral code and accept that we just do not understand everything without the need of an imaginary father figure as a crutch.
So is a mother figure acceptable then you bigot? :P
I believe I am closest to agreement with Buddha in that religious dogma is absurd.
"Do not go by reports (repeated hearing), by legends, by traditions, by rumours, by scriptures, by surmise, conjecture and axioms, by inference and analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by specious reasoning or bias toward a notion because it has been pondered over, by another's seeming ability, or by the thought, 'This monk (contemplative) is our teacher."
--Words of Gautama Siddartha, as recorded in the Kalama Sutta.|
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Why is it that when ever the subject of Islam comes up, otherwise rational people lose focus and turn into total nutters? We have proved in the past that religious discussion can take place on this board without all this bickering and backbiting, so what is it about Islam specifically that provokes this response?
If Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, Vishnu, Cthulhu, L. Ron Hubbard, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, ect. can't handle some fun being poked at them, I question their qualifications for our respect.If someone requests to be left alone, do you question their qualificaitons to have their wishes respected or do you ridicule them for not being social? [snip]
Mulsims (even moderates) have made it clear that pictures of their prophet are off limits as far as ridicule goes. Respect their wishes. Personalities like al Sadr, bin Ladin, Ahmadinejad are not off limits. Ridicule them; leave their prophet alone.
Except most of those who "want to be left alone" have no problem bothering/belittling others (and I'm not only talking muslims here, but any of the "my great skydaddy is greater than your skydaddy, so nyah nyah!" people).
Thus, if they cannot extend the same courtesy to others, why should we respect their plea of the same?An eye for an eye, right (something that's rather fundamental in e.g. Sharia law)?
I believe I am closest to agreement with Buddha in that religious dogma is absurd. Religion’s purpose is to give us some moral code and try to answer questions that we do not have answers for yet. I would like to think the human race has matured enough to create a mutually acceptable moral code and accept that we just do not understand everything without the need of an imaginary father figure as a crutch.
Damn, now you almost make me want to worship poodles... (yes, this is just an excuse for a QFT post)
I believe I am closest to agreement with Buddha in that religious dogma is absurd. Religion’s purpose is to give us some moral code and try to answer questions that we do not have answers for yet. I would like to think the human race has matured enough to create a mutually acceptable moral code and accept that we just do not understand everything without the need of an imaginary father figure as a crutch.So is a mother figure acceptable then you bigot? :P
Of course, MILFs are hot! :-D
Congratulations, you win the "One of the Worst Examples of Humanity Award". I'm out of this thread.Respect their wishes.As soon as they respect my wishes and give up the idea of an Allah.
Too bad, I would have liked you to explain why you wish to give out such a dubious award to CourtFool.
(I make too many posts in a row, I know... and it even rhymes!)
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EDIT: In fact, I've found it rather strange how careful my Saudi Arabian students are to not in any way criticize the U.S. or Israel publicly. Some students from other countries have made cracks about George Bush and I've noticed the Saudis stare straight at the blackboard and say absolutely nothing. From the 'facts' stated in this thread, I'd expect them to be frothing at the mouth. Of course, several of them have lived in or visited the U.S. and have relatives there.
I found this interesting. Why? From what you said here, it implies fear more than anything -- so what are they afraid of?
Really mostly just curious.
I just read this article describing ten ways to talk to a Muslim so they wont hate you. I'm all for working on achieving good relations with Muslim countries but are a few PC word changes going to make us friends with people are taught to hate the USA in their houses of worship?
What do you think.(Edited)
Most Muslims have not been "taught to hate the USA" as part of their religion.
Take care not to confuse political culture with religious culture, and take care not to mistake views of extremists as views of the whole.
Thank you Vic. As a Muslim I appreciate that very much.
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EDIT: In fact, I've found it rather strange how careful my Saudi Arabian students are to not in any way criticize the U.S. or Israel publicly. Some students from other countries have made cracks about George Bush and I've noticed the Saudis stare straight at the blackboard and say absolutely nothing. From the 'facts' stated in this thread, I'd expect them to be frothing at the mouth. Of course, several of them have lived in or visited the U.S. and have relatives there.I found this interesting. Why? From what you said here, it implies fear more than anything -- so what are they afraid of?
Really mostly just curious.
Perhaps of being labeled extremists. There seem to be at least a few people, even here, that are willing to label any Muslim as an extremist.
After all, if Muslims are really required to stand up to evil and fight it at all costs, if these extremists are such a small percentage of their numbers, why are the others not actually standing up and fighting them? Would they not be entitled to immediate admission to the very same paradise the extremists "misinterpret" as being opened to them by their terrorist actions? By that standard, it would seem that any such accusation is really saying the vast majority of Muslims are rather lousy at understanding and following their religion, and really need a whole bunch of westerners and a few "extremists" to explain to them what they should really believe and how they should act. That seems a bit presumptuous to me, but . . .
Samuel, do you really presume to believe that everyone who calls themselves a Muslim actively follows the religion to your interpretation? I myself don't follow the interpretations of the Sunni philosophy you mention.
There is VERY vocal disagreement amongst Muslims as to what is going on with the religion right now. You won't see it unless you watch Arabic language TV.
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Yes, obviously no self-proclaimed Christian would ever bomb abortion clinics, for example -- nor would "moderates" shelter the perpetrators.
I condemn any violence -- regardless of what sect or ideology is used as a cover, it's usually an act of terrified people trying desperately to convince themselves that they're not really afraid of the big, scary world, or of their inability to make themselves feel safe by making sure everyone else is just like them.
And the last such bombing was when?
And how much such bombings occurred?And they were not uncondititionally condemned when such event occurred?
And there was dancing in the streets over such acts where?
Yes, those events did happen.
Yes, they were utterly reprehensible, and both the people responsible for carrying them out, those responsible for inciting them, those who tried to justify them, and those who protected the perpetrators are all equally guilty, and deserve the fullest punishment under the law.
And if you put the entire range of such incidents together over the 16 years shown there you have:
Less deaths in 16 years than in the 1 week of March 21-27
Less attacks in any 1 year, or in the last 7 years listed, than in the 1 week of March 21-27
Just over half of the number of violent attacks in 16 years than in the last two months
About 2 times the number of "incidents" in 16 years as actual injuries in the last two months
Yes, all efforts must be made to stop violence against reproductive care providers, and people should be concerned about it.
Now . . . how much effort and how concerned should people be about Islamist terrorism?
It would seem the burden should be on Muslims to explain which form of jihad they are currently pursuing.
Are you kidding?
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Samuel, do you really presume to believe that everyone who calls themselves a Muslim actively follows the religion to your interpretation? I myself don't follow the interpretations of the Sunni philosophy you mention.There is VERY vocal disagreement amongst Muslims as to what is going on with the religion right now. You won't see it unless you watch Arabic language TV.
I hate to say it, but don't waste your breath veector. Sam is convinced that every Muslim is out there just waiting for him to fall alsleep so the can turn him into a dhjimi.
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Why is it that when ever the subject of Islam comes up, otherwise rational people lose focus and turn into total nutters? We have proved in the past that religious discussion can take place on this board without all this bickering and backbiting, so what is it about Islam specifically that provokes this response?
Possibly lack of a positive example.
My wife and I recently did a lot of research into Islam. The Koran really is a book about peace. Unfortunately (like so many other things) people twist things around in the text and try and use that to justify poor behavior. The other problem is that it is far more difficult to separate the political from the religious when it comes to Islam/Muslims. Very much so in a way that is very difficult for "us Westerners" to understand.
I find it interesting that in the past (around the time of the Crusades) the Muslims were told to basically accept the Jews for what they believe and to basically leave them alone.
In answer to the OP, DMMcCoy's response is pretty much spot on.
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Samuel, do you really presume to believe that everyone who calls themselves a Muslim actively follows the religion to your interpretation? I myself don't follow the interpretations of the Sunni philosophy you mention.
To my interpretation?
Those are not my interpretations, those are the largest denominations of Muslim interpretation.If you do not, great.
Do you really presume to believe that there are not many more who do? Many who actively and repeatedly call for my death, and many who listen to them and carry out attacks?
There is VERY vocal disagreement amongst Muslims as to what is going on with the religion right now. You won't see it unless you watch Arabic language TV.
And there is VERY vocal agreement amongst Muslims as to those calls for violence, and many incidents of violence as a result. You will see that too in Arabic language TV.
I've read many of the posts on this thread and here are some simple ways to relate to muslims (I've known a few, these are pointers they gave me):
- Respect the individual. Muslims are people too and they want to be treated as fairly as any other person. See the person, not the religion. My girlfriend is a secular humanist; I hated it back in the early days of our relationship when she saw what she thought all Christians were and not who I am. Same thing, see the individual and respect them.
- Don't be a d***. Muslims do not like it when you use the name of their prophet improperly. Well, Christians don't like it when you use the name of their (my) Lord and Savior improperly. Same thing, don't do it. Muslims don't want anyone to draw a picture of their prophet. Can you name any reason you have for doing it other than being a d***?
- Don't reduce a muslim down to the worse among them. Many muslims hate the extreme elements in their religion and don't really like being equated to those elements that hijacked the public face of their religion. I, as a Christian, hate it when someone assumes I hate homo-/bi-sexuals. I have had a number of gay/lesbian/bisexual friends over the years and saw them as people, not their sexual orientation. They did not assume I am like Jerry Falwell and I was very glad they did not see me as someone that hijacked the public face of my religion for many years. I am sure the same can be said for Scientologist and assuming they are all like Tom Cruise.
You sir, are a scholar and a statesmen. Thank you.
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Congratulations, you win the "Ugly American Award". I'm out of this thread.Respect their wishes.As soon as they respect my wishes and give up the idea of an Allah.
Who cares about some silly little award like this, I'm still working on getting my Nobel prize for evil, now that's an award worth earning.
To my interpretation? Those are not my interpretations, those are the largest denominations of Muslim interpretation. If you do not, great.
This, in my experience with Muslims in the United States, is completely untrue.
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I hate to say it, but don't waste your breath veector. Sam is convinced that every Muslim is out there just waiting for him to fall alsleep so the can turn him into a dhjimi.
I am?
You are reading my mind again?Just because you choose not to take certain people at their word and actions does not mean I am paranoid for doing so.
To quote:
(Just read the site heading.)
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The other problem is that it is far more difficult to separate the political from the religious when it comes to Islam/Muslims. Very much so in a way that is very difficult for "us Westerners" to understand.
That's a good point. I think we forget that post-Enlightenment "Western" societies are essentially secular. That's not to say that faith isn't very important to people, but our governments are founded on secular principles born of that time. We have largely discarded the connection between divine and civil authority. Muslim culture has not discarded this connection. That's not to say that they can't discard it. Turkey, even though it is not the friendliest country in the world, tries it's damnedest to sever the ties between government and religion. The muslim world is certainly behind, but that's not to say that it can't catch up. Heck, even the UAE is making some progress. It's slow, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and I doubt that Mecca was either.
I hate to say it, but don't waste your breath veector. Sam is convinced that every Muslim is out there just waiting for him to fall alsleep so the can turn him into a dhjimi.
Your accusations towards Samuel Weiss are as myopic as you yourself acuse him of being.
Samuel, I am with you in your assertions.
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I am?
You are reading my mind again?
I don't have to read your mind, because I have read what you write. You have a keen intelect and an excellent ability to express your point of veiw. Sadly though, all of that seems to be applied to demonizing all Muslims based on the actions of a radical few. I find this to be offensive, because it is exactly what people have been doing to my religon and it is exactly what those self-same radicals do to convince their followers to hate and kill westerners.
Mulsims (even moderates) have made it clear that pictures of their prophet are off limits as far as ridicule goes. Respect their wishes. Personalities like al Sadr, bin Ladin, Ahmadinejad are not off limits. Ridicule them; leave their prophet alone.
I'll take it even one step further and Christians may be surprised at this.
As a Muslim, it's really not just about Muhammad. To be true to the faith, Muslims do not accept any depiction of any prophet. That includes Jesus, Moses, and Abraham.
So when I find myself looking at any depiction of Jesus or Moses, even in movies, I have to constantly remind myself that it's a depiction and it's not acceptable in my faith.
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I hate to say it, but don't waste your breath veector. Sam is convinced that every Muslim is out there just waiting for him to fall alsleep so the can turn him into a dhjimi.Your accusations towards Samuel Weiss are as myopic as you yourself acuse him of being.
Samuel, I am with you in your assertions.
I'd laugh if I didn't suspect you seriously believe what you said.
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This, in my experience with Muslims in the United States, is completely untrue.
Others apparently have different experiences:
"Many moderate Muslims in America are uncomfortable with the views preached at mosques influenced by the Brotherhood, scholars say. Those experts point to a 2001 study sponsored by four Muslim advocacy and religious groups that found that only a third of U.S. Muslims attend mosques.
In suburban Bridgeview, Ill., some moderates say they quit attending the Mosque Foundation because the leadership became too conservative and dominated by Brotherhood members."
I don't have to read your mind, because I have read what you write. You have a keen intelect and an excellent ability to express your point of veiw. Sadly though, all of that seems to be applied to demonizing all Muslims based on the actions of a radical few. I find this to be offensive, because it is exactly what people have been doing to my religon and it is exactly what those self-same radicals do to convince their followers to hate and kill westerners.
This is exactly the same way I feel. I mean very often Samuel, it doesn't seem like a reasoned argument, but a barrage of links to "look at what those crazy Muslims are doing again" kind of stuff.
To be fair, do you think you could at least examine the kind of rhetoric that you are adding to the mix and ask: "Is this furthering the cause of peace and understanding between people?"
If you really think that 90% of the Muslims out there believe in the destruction of Western culture, then I suggest you examine how Westernized Middle Eastern societies have become. Dubai is a perfect example.