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Hey all,
I'm going to be running CotCT sometime in the future and I can't help but wonder...
To me it seems a bit of a waste to provide a tragic background for each character as a means to introduce a bunch of complete strangers to one another, only to have it all resolved within the first session. After that, there seems to be little holding the group together besides a little metagaming.
I'm thinking that keeping Lamm around as a possible reoccurring bad guy will let me stir the passion of the PC's when I need to keep my players focused on the game. Otherwise I can see my players asking themselves "why is my character not fleeing the city like any rational person would?" when the crap hits the fan in Korvosa.
So how about it? Has anyone had Lamm play a more prominent role in the Adventure Path besides getting squished like a bug in the first couple sessions?
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No, Lamm has not survived the two times I have encountered him, once as a player and once as a GM. There is something to be said, however, for the satisfaction of finishing him in the first adventure. It goes something like this. When was the last time you or your group was given a serious adventure hook that you finished right out of the gate? It is odd, I know, but it actually is a bit startling and everyone is standing there stunned when it happens. It actually built both parties in an instance. Yes each PC has a reason to go their own ways, none of them in either party had a real insentive to stick together, and yet, they did and not because of the "we're PC's we have to stick together thing" either. Also there is the...
Zellara reveal and the queen's brooch. When I played we found the head and rushed back to the house (which is exactly what my players did when they found it) to see what happened.
After that both groups wanted/needed a rest and since the one I am running is using Beta it wasnt' because we needed a rest to prep up but because we as players needed to collect our thoughts and our characters were in the same boat.
So the short answer is no, he hasn't made it past the openning gambit in my experience, but I honestly don't think you need to worry about it as much as you are. But, hey, it's your game, you know your player's, as always you do what is best for you and them. Good luck
BTW I love this Path I hope you find it as entertaining as I have.
Hey all,
I'm going to be running CotCT sometime in the future and I can't help but wonder...
** spoiler omitted **
Maybe it's just my party, but since they rescued the orphans, they had that to deal with as a group, then the Surprise in the Box, and the Brooch ... and they just kept turning to those they'd fought with as the logical choice.
Plus, all my players have a vested interest in the city -- they was born there :) All have family ('cept the orphan priestess, but she has her adopted family at the temple) that are going to hold them there.
As an aside, one of my players keeps joking about moving to Magnimar, with his entire family clan ::laughing:: He doesn't like the sound of Seven Days a'tall, a'tall :}
Plus, all my players have a vested interest in the city -- they was born there :) All have family ('cept the orphan priestess, but she has her adopted family at the temple) that are going to hold them there.
As a player whose group is just about to finish up Edge of Anarchy (we just have some loose ends to tie up since we stepped of the path, but good), let me stress this.
While the hooks to Lamm were nice to get us started, make sure your players characters have some reason to care about the city. In my group, my character is the one most tied to the city - and he was only there to get revenge on Lamm.
So, you might imagine how hard it was to get our characters to care about what happened after we finished the part with Lamm.
(It is kind of a running joke in the game, whenever an NPC says something like "I just want to leave town," my character responds with "I've been saying that for weeks now...")
I'm not sure that having Lamm live would have been any better for us. Maybe it was just an indication of how badly we stepped off the path... But we have had a hell of a time reigning everything in. Nicholas Logue (with the possible assist of our inability to stay within the lines) has done a fine job of setting up... Well, anarchy. Having Lamm live would only have distracted us further.
But your group may be different, and you know them better than I do.
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Hey all,
I'm going to be running CotCT sometime in the future and I can't help but wonder...
Well, I had him escape the wrath of my PCs a couple of times. Unfortunately he was intend on getting his revenge for them closing his line of business. They managed to track him down, and before he could form an alliance with others that have been pi.....ssed of by the groups actions, he lost his calm and decided to try killing them in their sleep. He did not make it so, and his end was more ore less longish and painful.
He really did not make a good nemesis, considering all those troubles the group encountered. (That Nosferatu on the other hand, now he might be trouble that will be hard to cope with, and he is really mad at my group).
Otherwise I can see my players asking themselves "why is my character not fleeing the city like any rational person would?" when the crap hits the fan in Korvosa.
Because they love their city?
Because it's the right thing to do?
Because rational persons have boring lives and only have levels in NPC classes - or, in most cases, only a single level?
Because they're heroes?
Because the pay simply rocks?
Because them fleeing from danger is a crappy campaign, and don't they know it, too?
I have a general rule: All player characters need to be adventurers, and need to be willing to go on adventures. It's an unwritten contract: Players don't force me to bribe them to go to the adventure, and I won't sneak into their houses, panzer tape them to their beds, and play around with a razor.
So how about it? Has anyone had Lamm play a more prominent role in the Adventure Path besides getting squished like a bug in the first couple sessions?
Nah. He's a pitiful wretch whose destiny is to be fed to his own alligator, preferrably when he's still alive. Lamm, not the gator, though preferrably he's still alive, too. Or undead.
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Of all of the antagonists in the series, I find Lamm to be rather weak (and I don't mean statwise). Many of the other people in the AP are much more interesting bad guys. Lamm is a petty thug who torments children. Yes that's bad, but he isn't trying to destroy/take over Korvosa. If you want to increase his role, that's fine, but I suggest you merge him with one of the other Antagonist's then, Rolth would be my suggestion.
Otherwise having someone just constantly get away from the party (especially without magical assistance) is going to get old very quickly for your PC's. My biggest pet peeve as a player is when someone gets away again and again because "He is supposed to" not because he bolts with enough HP's to survive the parties next round of attacks and still have some in the tank to make his getaway.
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This will be a little off-topic, but you've given me the most brilliant idea! My players have made it pretty clear that, now that the plague has been cured (end of book 2), they intend to storm Arkona's palace as soon as possible, skipping the emperor of Old Korvosa portion of the adventure and possibly going in a level or two short.
But, two of the PCs have personal history with Lamm, and a a third had his daughter sold into servitude by the monster. If it turns out Lamm miraculously SURVIVED his encounter with them, and is the emperor of Old Korvosa, well... that might be an inviting target for them. Plus, as a GM, I love recurring characters.
The problem is, the PC's shot Lamm, shook him down for his dying words, and then kicked his body into the river. There are two ways to have him return as a new menace: Either the old man is just too mean to die (kind of overdone), or he was vile enough that he's returned as some sort of undead (likely, especially with all the death flying around during the riots and plague). Tack on a few other NPCs who escaped the PCs and have a score to settle (Venda of Lavander's, and Devargo or Eel's End) and I might have a really fun setup for Old Korvosa :)
This will be a little off-topic, but you've given me the most brilliant idea! My players have made it pretty clear that, now that the plague has been cured (end of book 2), they intend to storm Arkona's palace as soon as possible, skipping the emperor of Old Korvosa portion of the adventure and possibly going in a level or two short.
But, two of the PCs have personal history with Lamm, and a a third had his daughter sold into servitude by the monster. If it turns out Lamm miraculously SURVIVED his encounter with them, and is the emperor of Old Korvosa, well... that might be an inviting target for them. Plus, as a GM, I love recurring characters.
The problem is, the PC's shot Lamm, shook him down for his dying words, and then kicked his body into the river. There are two ways to have him return as a new menace: Either the old man is just too mean to die (kind of overdone), or he was vile enough that he's returned as some sort of undead (likely, especially with all the death flying around during the riots and plague). Tack on a few other NPCs who escaped the PCs and have a score to settle (Venda of Lavander's, and Devargo or Eel's End) and I might have a really fun setup for Old Korvosa :)
Get Rolth or the Nosferatu involved <G> Or if you want to be REALLY sick ... have Pilts be wearing his brand new Lamm Suit ::shiver:: I don't have the book handy at the moment, but either Father Skinsaw or Norgorber had a mention of the skins of slain folks turned into masks and other gruesome disguises :) So they THINK it's Lamm, are royally teed off that he escaped 'em and then find out nope, just his outside holding Pilts in ::laughing::
Of all of the antagonists in the series, I find Lamm to be rather weak (and I don't mean statwise). Many of the other people in the AP are much more interesting bad guys. Lamm is a petty thug who torments children. Yes that's bad, but he isn't trying to destroy/take over Korvosa.
You say it: He fits his role perfectly: He's the reason the characters get together, and after that, he's dead meat.
Otherwise having someone just constantly get away from the party (especially without magical assistance) is going to get old very quickly for your PC's. My biggest pet peeve as a player is when someone gets away again and again because "He is supposed to" not because he bolts with enough HP's to survive the parties next round of attacks and still have some in the tank to make his getaway.
Don't get me going. Our resident railroader did one very obvious getaway: Guy stands before us, jeers at us and tells us to come "to the dark side" (well, muddy with dirt, but it's dark dirt).
My archer (dex 20, don't remember whether he had improved initiative) said he'd draw his bow, ready to let fly the moment he did anything.
The guy talked a bit, and then "dropped backwards into a window". No readied action, no init rolled, it just happened, because the RR wanted to.
You just don't do that sort of thing. And if you do, you'll at least try to disguise it.
The thread brings up an interesting development that happened in my own Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign that I feel compelled to share. Yes, Lamm did survive initial contact with the PCs. They knocked him unconscious and into negative hit points...but, with a paladin of Iomedae and a Sable-Marine-wannabe ranger in the party, they quickly decided they would "save" Lamm and make sure he finally got brought up on charges that would stick.
Unfortunately for them, the riots following King Arabasti's death threw a bit of a monkey-wrench into things. They just knew Lamm would get lost in the shuffle if they sought out the beleaguered authorities at Citadel Volshyenek. So, the paladin advised taking him to the local temple of Iomedae to ensure he found assured justice that couldn't be compromised by Lamm's bribes and corrupt allies already in the government.
Along the way, however, they encountered the otyugh that escaped from the sewers. And, because they were all 1st level and the CR 4 otyugh was going to be a bit of a challenge for them, I threw in the Hellnight encounter to come assist them. After the battle was over, the Hellnight demanded to know why they had a prisoner tied up among them. The paladin and his friends explained the nature of Lamm's villainy and their intentions to turn the man over to the temple of Iomedae. At that point, I took great glee in empowering the Hellnight to demand they turn Lamm over to his "care" instead. Basically, as the appointed arbiter of "martial law" serving the new queen herself, he pulled rank on the paladin.
There was some angst involved in the choice, but the player running the paladin has already set himself up to be a bit jaded in following the "letter of the law" initially...to eventually suffer a fall-from-grace and become an ex-paladin for a short while...and then to rediscover his calling by focusing more on the "good" of the law moreso than kow-tow'ing to corrupt members of the guard. But, in this instance, he grudgingly turned over Lamm to the Hellnight who then executed Lamm on the spot as a verified lawbreaker on the word of a paladin of Iomedae.
After the stunned silence, I think everyone came to realize the true nature of the Hellnights very quickly.
::insert evil DM chuckling::
--Neil
P.S. So, yeah...long story short...Lamm survived initial contact, but he didn't survive the Hellnight. :->
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My PC's have been skirting the good/evil line pretty closely so far, and so...
In their first encounter with Lamm, they quickly brought him to negative hitpoints.
One dwarven PC (the most vengeful of the lot) made sure that Lamm got healed so that he could beat on him some more. They tied him up, and dragged him along with them, and the vengeful PC made it clear that he would continue to heal/torture Lamm, and would fight anyone who tried to stop him.
Some interesting role playing developed, and, given the situation, I decided to play Lamm a lot like the Benjamin Linus character from Lost. Even though he was in captivity, he continued to manipulate the players with his words, exploiting the conflict and sowing discord whenever he could. Eventually, he egged the dwarf into knocking him senseless with a crowbar. Another PC (a necromancer) took pity on Lamm, and immediately used Grave Touch to drive Lamm below -10, killing him beyond the dwarf's ability to heal.
Initially, the dwarf was very angry, but the two PC's eventually realized how much Lamm had been manipulating them both, and reconciled.
Later, in a pauper's funeral procession, paid for by the city, it was revealed that Lamm's body was missing. He showed up later (at Carowyn Manor) as a revenant, bent on revenge against the dwarf. I used the revenant stats from Skinsaw Murders. The dwarf vs. revenant battle was pretty epic.
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My players recently started CoCT and dealt with Lamm. They knocked him out and took him prisoner, and wound up needing to question him about some other aspects of his organization - a sideplot I threw in.
While they were waiting to wake him up, trying to figure out how they'd get him to cough up the information they needed, the bard decided to see what Zellara's deck could do. Lo and behold she appeared to describe her role and purpose, and they asked if she'd be willing to help.
She said yes, so they set up the old man to look at a table with Zellara's rotting, disgusting head upon it. Then they had her stand beside it and question him. He was so terrified of the vengeful haunt that he gave up the information without the players needing to cajole or threaten him at all.
I thought it was pretty darn cool.