Contributor
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I'm still in a bad mood the next day.
A disjunction trap? Really? That killed our game session last night. It definately killed the usefulness I'd spent months developing for my character.
Our Fighter/Cleric lost two expensive items that cost her 30,000 gp and 1,200 XP and stormed out of the game. She's normally the level-headed one, and I've never seen her up and LEAVE like she did last night. Our Warblade lost everything magical on his character up until her rules-lawyered his way into only loosing a few utility items he was carrying. Our dedicated Cleric didn't even loose anything, and kept insisting that the trap wasn't really that bad.
Meanwhile, there's Immora, my Beguiler. Completely against the math (including four natural ones), she lost three-quarters of her magical gear, including her armor, weapon, cloak of resistance, and all of her wands. All totaled out, over 100,000 gp, the vast majority of her character wealth. To make matters worse, she's been unable to get a targetted spell off for six levels now: opponents are either impervious to illusions and enchantments (Beguilers are essentially a specialized rogue/illusionist class), or just inexplicably make their saves. The only effective thing I've been able to do in combat for have my character career (besides casting Haste at the start of every fight) has been dependant on those wands. Now we're trapped in the heart of the Runeforge, at my character at the very least is essentially naked: AC, hit points, saves, spell-casting, even basic attributes have all been nerfed. And despite our GMs insistance that we've already found more than enough treasure to make up for the lost gear (which is bunk; we've found nowhere near 100,000 gp yet, just to cover Immora's loses), even if we had that many valuables, sitting on a stack of +1 chainmail is nowhere near as useful to me as my wand of Scorching Ray or Cloack of Resistance or Handy Haversack.
I think I wouldn't be nearly as miserable about this whole affair if it had been an actual trap rather than just an encounter we couldn't avoid. We walked into the room and were promptly warned about the burn marks on the wall and charred bones, and immediatly assumed it was some sort of trap, obviously. Immora began searching for traps (her Rogue levels grant her Evasion and Trapfinding, usually protecting her from nasty traps) while the rest of the group left the room. But before the search check was even completed, the effect went off, affecting Immora and the rest of the party (who were waiting out in the stairwell) equally. Our GM tried to defend it all, saying that he'd given a warning, saying how I'd heard crackling as something charged up, but that's complete bunk: Even if Immora had rejoined the group (which she didn't, because all evidence we were given indicated some kind of fireball or electrical trap), the entire group was still within the effect even standing well outside the room.
It certainly didn't help that our GM spent the time we used to refigure our stats to say how he'd given us every opportunity to avoid it by just casting Detect Magic, or about how this is what happens when players are too reliant on their magic items.
When our Fighter/Cleric player finally came back from her walk to cool off, we decided to keep going (we were only an hour or so into our weekly session), but how the very next encounter was handled left all of us so frustrated that she left again and didn't come back. We called it a night there.
I'm still trying to figure out what to do from here. The vast majority of what Immora is capable of doing against all the undead and construct and mental-affect-immune opponents that this AP is packed with depended on her collection of wands and gadgets, and most of it has now been wiped out in a deadly, deadly dungeon we can't escape. We already all had issues with the game because the Warblade is clearly broken and dominates every session, but the one fight we got into after loosing our equipment left Immora completely useless and me, as a player, frustrated and not having any fun. We've spent a year now building up our characters and trying to tweak them to make them interesting and fun to play, and in one unavoidable encounter, it was all stripped away form us (well, mostly me; I'm the only one who lost anything but back-up or utility items).
So yeah, still in a bad mood.
Creative Director
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The disjunction trap is indeed a pretty cruel and harrowing trap. That's why we put a sidebar in the encounter warning GMs about it, warning them to handle it with care. I came very close to cutting the trap out of the adventure entirely, but in the end left it (and its warning sidebar) in the adventure because, as written in the adventure, it's a pretty obvious trap what with the sparking and buzzing before it goes off.
If I were the GM of a group that got hit with the disjunction trap and the party reacted as angrily and in as much dismay, I would probably figure a way out to undo the effects, such as the following (spoilered so that the GM can check it out if he wants but the players don't accidently see).
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If it were me, I'd probably reduce the effect to that of the paizo version or given it a miss chance because of the faultyness of it all. I personally felt it was poorly handled. I have a very very important magic item that I've sacrificed a level creating and it's a big part of my characters development and if I would have lost it permenantly because my then +17 will save wasn't high enough I would have walked permenantly as well.
Still, while she was feeling useless, I was wanting revenge and the rest of the party wanted some too. So when the next fight came up and the GM decided that us going simultaneously meant that our actions resolved simultaneously for some reason just really put a little "kick-me" cherry on top and I knew I had to leave the room or argue about it and by that time I was too frustrated to really have a cogent and emotionless argument. So, it was time to stop it for the night. I was done.
I really look forward to this game, but wow, that really ruined the night for me.
BTW, if you fall down a well, you come back with a character generally that has level equivalent gear because it's not fun to play a completely gimped character.
My last GM even let me keep my sword after drawing The Fool and The Void from a deck of many things and that was second edition. He found a way to make sure I wasn't completely destroyed by this because it isn't fun to suddenly loose everything, especially when there isn't really much we can do to get it back currently. So yeah, death is one thing, it can be overcome, the game can be made fun for that person again.
And the game depends so much on being well-equipped unless you min-max which is just kind of boring to me, honestly. It's just frustrating, and we will get over it, but it really ruined our night and our game for a little while until we can go forward.
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Contributor
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I should use this forum to apologize. What I originally wrote before comes across as a dig against my GM as much as anything. I wrote it while frustrated, and wasn't clear and drug him into the mud int he process of complaining about the encounter and the general state of my rolling habits. He didn't do anything to my character; the adventure and the dice did, and it was crass of me to complain about him at all, especially in a public forum.
My GM is a nice guy and a sweet friend and always tries to make sure we have a good time.
I'm still very, very frustrated with the situation, and not sure what I'm going to be doing with my character until we can get to a town and get some useful items, but that's more a comment on the kind pof character I ended up building than any knock against my GM or the rest of the group.
IMO Disjunction is a poorly designed spell left over from 1st edition unearthed arcana days- it is one of the ones that didnt make the transition to 3ed well largely due to the magic item balance that is implied in most 3ed. In addition the fact it is a will save tends to mean that the fighters & rogues & such (those who most rely on magic items) lose more than the clerics (who tend to lose little) or other spell casters
We have completely changed it to be like an uber dispel magic. Huge area effect, all spells in the area automatically dispelled, if targetted on one individual their items all stop working as well for 1 round per caster level. The destroy magic item effect only comes into play if targetted on an item. Now it is commonly used by high level PC's not just a method for DM's (NPC's) to hammer low will save PC's
In the case of such a 'hand wave' effect trap James' solution works, or perhaps they are disjuncted while in the dungeon, or perhaps for 1 day per caster level etc.
I too dislike the effect- the 'you had warning' isn't enough.
When My PC's get to it I will use a variant, probably have 1d4 items effected and go to the rune forge or something.
You brought this on themselves by entering a clearly dangerous room without observing what's going on first and then not going for the source of ominous SFX (the rod can be disarmed), you know. You're playing an adventure path that that expressly forbids most enemies from doing things like going out of their rooms to see what's going on upon hearing the noise of battle, so if anything is unfair, anyway, that is party's survival to this point.
Also, I wonder how anyone can screw up a beguiler that badly, particularly in this path.
I must preface my post with the belief that I am the softest DM I've ever met. I get no joy in killing PCs or generally frustrating players.
I ran the trap with a lot of warning since the rogue was leading the party and his trapfinding told him what the danger was. He removed all his magic items and went in to disarm it. He got close too. I kept making the noises of the discharging wand. Then the ranger went in to disarm it and instead smashed it. Problem solved, but not to the satisfaction of the beguiler who wanted it.
What did you expect: It's Disjunction, one of the most feared spells in D&D.
To Paizo's defense: They did put it in with lots of warning, AND they had a sidebar explaining why this trap is bad, and why the spell is as dreaded as it is.
I don't want to attack your GM, but he should have read the sidebar, should have read the spell description. If he did, he either didn't care, or thought the players would have ample warning.
If you ignored the warnings, then it's your fault. If it wasn't as clear as it could have been, the GM could have made some last-minute adjustments.
About the "money or life" paradox: It's funny that people don't mind getting their characters killed, but will be close to a killing spree if they lose their character's items, but that's how it is. In fact, I think I'd have the same reactions - not necessary the killing spree part, but the having a stronger reaction to losing your wealth than to losing your character - and for the very reasons that are mentioned: It's easier to replace the character (get true res, or play a new one, which is usually on par with the rest, at least in our games) than to replace gear.
About Disjunction: I houserule it that it only suppresses permanent magic items. I could see something like damaging them so you have to reactivate them. But I'm not a sadist who likes getting such strong negative emotions out of people like the original spell can do.
I'd say talk to the GM, tell him how you feel about it, why you feel that way, and ask him if he could do something about it. In this case, I could even see him retconning things, retroactively changing the spell so the items are disabled for a day or an hour or whatever instead of distroyed outright.
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As a DM, I'm a pretty big softie, but if I give my players fair warning that they're walking into a trap, I don't feel guilty if something nasty happens. It sounds like the beguiler certainly learned a lesson about overconfidence ("A little electric trap can't hurt me...")
Full disclosure: If one of my characters got hit by Mage's Disjunction -- even if it was completely my fault -- I'd probably sulk for a long, long time.
Considering that the first thing the beguiler did was start searching for traps, while the party left the room, it seems to me that they reacted to the warning exactly appropriately. That the trap then sprung before the beguiler had the chance to finish searching for traps, and that it hit the whole party, even though they had left the room seems more on the sadistic side than on 'you had fair warning, so live with it.'
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All this talk of fairness is nonsense. Roleplaying games are not about "fair". It's about telling good stories and experiencing thrilling adventures. Taking away all of the group's magic items could very well be a part of good story and a thrilling adventure. The trick is just to make sure that they can get back on their feet again.
And that's the trick of being a good GM; Giving the players what they want in a way that they don't expect. If your GM can use this mishap as a way to make the game more exciting, then thumps up. If what the players really want is great characters with great items, and not a great story, then the GM has to find some way to make you get your loot back or find some new and better stuff. But being fair? That's totally optional.
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Contributor
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From a roleplay/character building point of view is 'Sins of the Saviours' too late in the Adventure Path to consider this to perhaps be a 'divine sign' and to go the Vow of Poverty route from Book of Exalted Deeds?
Our GM doesn't allow anything from Exalted Deeds or Vile Darkness, and I'm not comfortable with them as a player. I didn't even 100% like branching into Beguiler, but we needed my Rogue to step over ito arcane casting, and it was the only class along those lines that didn't gimp the skills the rest of the party demanded from her: Bluff, Search, Disable Device, ect. Not to mention a vow of poverty would be radically out of character for her.
The disjunction trap is indeed a pretty cruel and harrowing trap. That's why we put a sidebar in the encounter warning GMs about it, warning them to handle it with care. I came very close to cutting the trap out of the adventure entirely, but in the end left it (and its warning sidebar) in the adventure because, as written in the adventure, it's a pretty obvious trap what with the sparking and buzzing before it goes off.
Well, we did try handling it like a trap and being safe, but I guess we shouldn't just think about everything in D&D in terms of traps just affecting the room they're in. I can garauntee that we'll be a lot more paranoid about every encounter for at least the next few months.
The sidebar was obviously well-advised, though. Our entire group (with the exception of the Cleric) were fuming. It felt like something had crawled out of the walls and taken four or five points off every attribute (which was literally the case for a few items).
Disjunction is pure Gygaxian sadism. The point about it being a hold-over from 1ed is very apt.
Created by the same man who brought us the original Temple of Elemental Evil, with the Sphere of Annihilation hidden in a statute's mouth.
I ran the trap with a lot of warning since the rogue was leading the party and his trapfinding told him what the danger was. He removed all his magic items and went in to disarm it. He got close too. I kept making the noises of the discharging wand. Then the ranger went in to disarm it and instead smashed it. Problem solved, but not to the satisfaction of the beguiler who wanted it.
Fair enough, but our group was thinking this was a Trap, and that the rod was a metal shaft in the floor that was the output of whatever created the trap effect; we never realized it was a Rod-classification magic item that was malfunctioning. I was focused mostly on figuring out what/where the trigger for the trap would be and disarming it. Obviously that kind of creativity is why we all love Paizo and keep coming back to their products, but it was 100% unexpected and came out of left feild.
I'd say talk to the GM, tell him how you feel about it, why you feel that way, and ask him if he could do something about it. In this case, I could even see him retconning things, retroactively changing the spell so the items are disabled for a day or an hour or whatever instead of distroyed outright.
He has ruled since then that wands aren't 'permanent' magic items, and that they weren't destroyed by disjuction. That takes some of the stress off, though it does feel like I'm only getting my way because I'm pouting.
All this talk of fairness is nonsense. Roleplaying games are not about "fair". It's about telling good stories and experiencing thrilling adventures. Taking away all of the group's magic items could very well be a part of good story and a thrilling adventure. The trick is just to make sure that they can get back on their feet again.
True, RPGs aren't about fairness, but they ARE about everyone having fun, and generally that comes back around to everyone having a balanced chance to fail or succeed. If something big and crippling does happen to characters, it should generally feel more dramatic and/or related to a big story element, rather than arbitrary and random. If the party were randomly hit with an enervation trap that went off while in the process of searching for traps, and even people not in the room were affected, we'd probably feel the same way. Especially if we all lost 4-5 levels and were still surrounded by CR 13+ encounters.
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All this talk of fairness is nonsense. Roleplaying games are not about "fair". It's about telling good stories and experiencing thrilling adventures. Taking away all of the group's magic items could very well be a part of good story and a thrilling adventure. The trick is just to make sure that they can get back on their feet again.
And that's the trick of being a good GM; Giving the players what they want in a way that they don't expect. If your GM can use this mishap as a way to make the game more exciting, then thumps up. If what the players really want is great characters with great items, and not a great story, then the GM has to find some way to make you get your loot back or find some new and better stuff. But being fair? That's totally optional.
While I agree in general, we're in a position right now that is difficult to do anything about. We're not entirely sure about where we are and we haven't yet found a way out and we're kind of wary of plane shifting currently strictly because we don't know where we are. And while we more or less enjoy playing with our group, the War Blade already over shadowed us all greatly. So now we're in a position where we are depending even more on a war blade to do more damage than a foe can withstand in a short amount of time. We buff up the war blade and hope we don't get taken down before he can do his thing. I'm someone who believes everyone should get a chance to shine and our beguiler usually shines in the sneaking and getting us in and out of tight situations which just became a bit harder and was already exceptionally difficult with what we've faced in the AP so far. I shine in combat mostly because I've built a few custom items that help me shine in specific circumstances.
That said, there is likely a lot of treasure down here, much of which is evil aligned or sin based, but it's here if we can keep the people who have it from dimension-dooring elsewhere or killing us outright which also became a bit harder. It doesn't help that many of the areas have creatures that are immune to mind-affecting and illusion spells. Not to mention, we've barely been able to defeat the things down here anyway(although we did do well against the lich).
Now, to be fair, our GM has put in an exception for wands and potions, which was one of the big things that would gimp our beguiler and that will help a little. But she still lost over half of her personal worth. So while being fair, isn't in the job description, making sure everyone is having fun is, and I think this really took a lot of fun away from the table very quickly. So I personally would suggest that while taking it out completely might not be the best case, and MD trap at 12th level in a dungeon where you can't easily retreat and restock is not the best.
If it were me, I'd have given it a miss chance. First of all, you can roll the miss chance behind the screen, so if you know something is extremely important to someone, you can fudge the number. I like the paizo version as well. It's a spell I can see being cast. Reduced radius could have helped that feeling of "I couldn't do anything about it". Having the enchantments go somewhere could have been really cool actually. Even allowing some sort of ability to swap enchantments with a miss chance that releases the magic. Have it not work with things that have a high CL, etc. There are lots of creative interesting solutions to this sparking broken machine that don't end with, "Your character lost effectiveness. Suck it."
All this talk of fairness is nonsense. Roleplaying games are not about "fair". It's about telling good stories and experiencing thrilling adventures. Taking away all of the group's magic items could very well be a part of good story and a thrilling adventure. The trick is just to make sure that they can get back on their feet again.
And that's the trick of being a good GM; Giving the players what they want in a way that they don't expect. If your GM can use this mishap as a way to make the game more exciting, then thumps up. If what the players really want is great characters with great items, and not a great story, then the GM has to find some way to make you get your loot back or find some new and better stuff. But being fair? That's totally optional.
I disagree, rather strongly. RPGs are, ideally, about good stories and thrilling adventures, but the players' perception of the equity of the game need not suffer because of this. Your players should never feel like they're cheated out of something they feel they've earned, for the sake of the DM's story. I think the above post is an example of an older-school, DM-centric mentality that is outdated at this point. A sense of fairness has its place in any role-playing game.
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I GMed this encounter for my group. They were all in the room and each lost some of their items, but only one player threw a fit. The rest were upset, but took it in stride thinking they would get some cool loot later.
I re-read the encouter before posting. While the disjunction does affect every thing in a 40 ft radius, it also says the burst is in the room. It also says the disjuntion does not affect the walls of the runeforge. I took this to mean the walls are barriers to the disjuntion. So long as someone is is not in a hallway within 40 ft of the staff their stuff should be fine.
Your GM obviously interpreted it differently, (and I don't want to interfere with how your GM runs his table) but if you are still upset, see if a compromise can't be worked out. Maybe the walls reduced the power and the saves were lower; maybe the walls slowed it down so only those near to the wall were affected.
I hope this helps you. ^_^
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Well, ultimately we will survive. The one person who was hit the hardest was the the thief/beguiler who was in the room and had the second worst save and also depended the most on her magic items to have fun. That said, yes, we are/were mad. Ultimately, I think our GM handled this situation a little more hard handedly than I would have liked, but he's a great guy and a good friend and generally a good GM. We will get past it in time. At this point, it might be difficult until we can get her reequipped with some good items, but we'll survive and the game will go on. It was just really an unfortunate situation that could have been avoided by some powering down, a little more or obvious warning, or even a different type of group.
Considering that the first thing the beguiler did was start searching for traps, while the party left the room, it seems to me that they reacted to the warning exactly appropriately. That the trap then sprung before the beguiler had the chance to finish searching for traps, and that it hit the whole party, even though they had left the room seems more on the sadistic side than on 'you had fair warning, so live with it.'
How do you search for that trap? It's a wand stuck in the middle of the room. You can't miss it. Can you? The group I was running for their rogue blew his disable over and over. Since he had no magic items on him at the time it didn't matter.
we're kind of wary of plane shifting currently strictly because we don't know where we are.
Where you are doesn't matter, only where you go.
Rincewind said that, and he was right - even though he was talking about running away, not about plane shift.
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I disagree, rather strongly. RPGs are, ideally, about good stories and thrilling adventures, but the players' perception of the equity of the game need not suffer because of this. Your players should never feel like they're cheated out of something they feel they've earned, for the sake of the DM's story. I think the above post is an example of an older-school, DM-centric mentality that is outdated at this point. A sense of fairness has its place in any role-playing game.
You're right and you're wrong. A certain sense of fairness has its place in rpgs, and the players' perception of equity need not suffer for the good story. But it shouldn't be holy either. Facing too tough opposition is not as fun as winning, but if a group never faces an encounter that they can't beat, and where retreat is the only option, there's less excitement. The same goes for player kills; They suck, but if they never happen, and there's never any question that everyone will survive, there's no reason to make an effort for the players. The thrill goes away. One of the best scenarios I ever played was the old Treshold scenario that starts with the players being mugged, have all their items stripped away and are locked in a dungeon. Nothing fair about that, but it was a great adventure.
As I see it, the main problem with the disjunction trap, and I do agree that it sucks, is that the loss of magic items doesn't come at the benefit of the story. There's just nothing thrilling about it. If it was the start of some great adventure to get the items back, it might have potential. If it opened up new possiblilties for unlike alliances with former enemies, forced the players to choose between power and morality (with new evil magic items, for instance), or in any other way lead to unforseen great adventures, the disjunction trap would be justified. But it doesn't. It just sucks.
And that's the deal here. The trap is not bad because it's not fair. The trap is bad because it's not fun.
Btw, you players really shouldn't participate so much in this thread, it has way too many spoilers already.
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Contributor
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How do you search for that trap? It's a wand stuck in the middle of the room. You can't miss it. Can you? The group I was running for their rogue blew his disable over and over. Since he had no magic items on him at the time it didn't matter.
As I said, we didn't realize that it was a magic item of any sort. We were told there was a rod sticking out of the floor and assumed "short length of metal tubing" that was obviously related to the trap's functioning. We never thought "magic item," especially after hearing how the rod was embedded in the stone floor.
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My personal view is that it is within the DM's responsibilities to make sure that everyone around the table has fun. If something within the game happens that really annoys a player (to the point where she storms out of the room twice within the same game...) then something is definitely wrong IMHO.
I think your group behaved reasonably and as could be expected. It's not like you guys ignored the trap: you did the logical thing to do. And the idea of the trap going off before you can do a simple search check seems a bit harsh.
I don't know if I understood correctly, but I got the impression that there was a little bit of spite from the DM in this case about "oh well, you guys shouldn't rely on magical items so much". Has it been an issue in the campaign? Maybe destroying the offending items in this way is a bit harsh, especially since not all characters received the same penalty across the board. And especially since, from what I understand, the most uber character in the group (the warblade) isn't the one that got his the hardest.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. I feel very sorry for you, Immora, I would be extremely upset if I were in your place.
:rollseyes:
[begin rant]
Disjunction is unpleasant - and, RAW a royal pain in the tucas. Several alternatives to the vanilla write-up have been posited during the Beta test - what the developers elect to do with it remains to be seen.
Given that the it is disarmable AND it permits saving throws ... well, I don't see how it is 'unacceptable' or 'unfair'. Harsh? Yes, yes it is - your characters will deal with it. If they're SO dependant on magic items to draw breathe and not die of dehydration, well - oops, have fun making a new one. In more generalized game play you had best have already been able to start dealing with lost magic item bonuses starting around 4th or 5th level, when the baddies start packing dispel magic spells now and again. By the time you hit that trap you're most likely about 13th or 14th level, so dealing with dispelled bonuses should be pretty old hat. Unless you're brand new to the game, dealing with dispellings should not be that much of a brain drain.
And why players do not know their baseline statistics is beyond me - especially when you're using a laptop or similar device to handle one's character! I will suppose that exclusively using the almost-universally-mediocre "generic" character sheets fail utterly to include basic combat statblocks in them. You know : melee AB, finesse/ranged AB and CMB are not exactly unimportant calculations to cram into the character sheet, spreadsheet or otherwise. This should not be a big deal to calculate - irritating and deflating (or worse), absolutely, but not crippling.
Let's face it, the characters were at one point in time using mundane gear - probably for quite a while a substantial proportion of their gear was mundane. Perhaps masterwork and alchemical items, but decidedly not the really spiffy high-end items adding plusses all over the place. Up well towards ~10th level it strikes me as probable.
[/end rant]
Sorry, but this is a deal with-able situation. I agree - and have posited during the Beta playtest days - that the spell and its mechanisms need to be changed to be both easier to use and easier to stomach. Until then, we'll all deal with it, by house rule or otherwise. :)
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Well, actually, we were using 3.5 mechanics which is significantly more painful than the beta version. I LIKE the beta version. I can even see it being cast. It hurts you for awhile and can take an item or three from you permanently. But, again, she permenantly lost over 1/2 of her personal worth to that trap and we're stuck in a dungeon with very few alternatives to get out and try to replace them. The AP specifically includes a ton of things that are immune to the bulk of her spells, sneak attacks, and illusions, so without much of her equipment she's relegated to simple party buffing.
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Well, actually, we were using 3.5 mechanics which is significantly more painful than the beta version. I LIKE the beta version. I can even see it being cast. It hurts you for awhile and can take an item or three from you permanently. But, again, she permenantly lost over 1/2 of her personal worth to that trap and we're stuck in a dungeon with very few alternatives to get out and try to replace them. The AP specifically includes a ton of things that are immune to the bulk of her spells, sneak attacks, and illusions, so without much of her equipment she's relegated to simple party buffing.
Kinda related:
I know what it's like to be playing a useless character. I just finished a campaign where i played a gnome sorcerer that primarily dealt with illusions and enchantments. After a certain level, I started trading out a lot of my spells for party buffs and a couple evocations, just so that I could do something useful.
It was very frustrating. The campaign ended, and now I'm relieved to not be so stressed about it.
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I don't want to attack your GM, but he should have read the sidebar, should have read the spell description. If he did, he either didn't care, or thought the players would have ample warning.
I could make the same argument for some of the complaining I've seen about the "boss encounters" of earlier volumes. DMs down right ignored the CR ratings and let their team charge in either unprepared or under level.
Well, actually, we were using 3.5 mechanics which is significantly more painful than the beta version. I LIKE the beta version. I can even see it being cast. It hurts you for awhile and can take an item or three from you permanently. But, again, she permenantly lost over 1/2 of her personal worth to that trap and we're stuck in a dungeon with very few alternatives to get out and try to replace them. The AP specifically includes a ton of things that are immune to the bulk of her spells, sneak attacks, and illusions, so without much of her equipment she's relegated to simple party buffing.
Oooooo, yeouch, vanilla version IS rough, 'specially on the weak Will save characters.
That I was not wanting to debate - but then, (a) I'm desperately not trying to reveal stuff still to come; and (b) your beguiler should not feel so bad when that time comes.
Um, if you're still playing and stuff...
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Oh we are. ^_^ It was painful and extremely frustrating. There were some hurt feelings and we're not sure how it's going to go from here. But ultimately, we will soldier on and deal with it the best we can. The beguiler will be getting first pick of much of the equipment though from here on out for awhile and our GM has let her keep her wands which will go a long way to helping her keep some of her usefulness. She is particularly vulnerable however as she lost most of her protection items except for the ring of protection which we had plenty of anyway. The two cloaks of resistance +3 went up in smoke, as did the one item any of us had to get through a wall of force, and the flametongue that we just picked up as well which was worth quite a lot of dosh. Other stuff went away as well, but, as I said. We're all friends and adults, and we will deal. It's was just made the game really not fun for awhile and hopefully we can find some things that she can make good use of soon.
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Over all, I know we'll survive this, and if not, well it's just a game. This post was mostly just about needing a place to vent than anything, and now that I have, I feel miles better. I'm still not happy about losing so much (especially my boots and haversack; I did a lot of work in-character to get spiffy customized and stylish versions made)
I don't know if I understood correctly, but I got the impression that there was a little bit of spite from the DM in this case about "oh well, you guys shouldn't rely on magical items so much". Has it been an issue in the campaign?
It wasn't a spite thing at all. Our DM just hates the 3e mentality of characters needing magical equipment to stay abreast with the monsters, especially at higher levels. He preferred 2e and other games where it's more about the character's abilities, rather than their gear. I can see where he's coming from, but since every monster in D&D over CR 6 requires magic weapons to punch through DR, it's not a quick-fix.
And why players do not know their baseline statistics is beyond me - especially when you're using a laptop or similar device to handle one's character!
Well, for starters, I'm not well-off enough to afford a laptop or similar device. My car is old enough to drive itself, and my phone only lost its wire about three years ago. And while we do know out baseline statistics, we didn't lose everything, so we had to give our sheets the rundown, adjusting stats for items that got nerfed, and then adjusting the stats based off those stats (for example, my Con took a hit, so that dropped, then I readjusted my Fort Save, Hit Points, and Concentration skill). Not to mention just figuring out what gear we had on us vs. what was in a pocket dimension and then rolling for each took a while for each of us. It's a game with a lot of numbers, and while it's not super-complicated, adjusting those numbers can take time.
I know what it's like to be playing a useless character. I just finished a campaign where i played a gnome sorcerer that primarily dealt with illusions and enchantments. After a certain level, I started trading out a lot of my spells for party buffs and a couple evocations, just so that I could do something useful.
Exactly. I spend most of my time in a fight buffing the Warblade with Haste, Spiderclimb, and occassionally Invisibility. When it comes time to scout, I can rule the school, and social encounters are little more than speedbumps, but neither comes up much in this AP, sadly. I suppose if I die in here, I'll bring in a dedicated Rogue OR a dedicated Wizard, and not try to fill both roles.
Like I said, I'm feeling better, and we'll get along one way or another. More than anything, I just needed to vent a bit.
Over all, I know we'll survive this, and if not, well it's just a game. This post was mostly just about needing a place to vent than anything, and now that I have, I feel miles better. I'm still not happy about losing so much (especially my boots and haversack; I did a lot of work in-character to get spiffy customized and stylish versions made)
Ya know, oddly, it's the flavor-items I'd probably have hand-walked your saving throws "around". I LOVE flavor-items more than just about anything.
Like the portable oasis (Magic Item Compendium), customized haversacks and similar not-directly-combative items ... I eat those up. They are just plain fun! Choosing between a vorpal sword and a figurine that contains a magnificent mansion, I'll generally go for the mansion unless Plot demands otherwise.
Didn't mean to rant at you specifically Immora, so I hope things go well and your character can re-acquire her stylin' haversack back! Nothin' says veteran adventurer like a haversack that cost more in materials than magical enchantments.
While I do have a laptop and use it for my GMing, my characters as a player are all on paper, and I don't use the laptop as a player. Call me old-fashioned, but I want it to be a roleplaying session, not a lan-party.
I could make the same argument for some of the complaining I've seen about the "boss encounters" of earlier volumes. DMs down right ignored the CR ratings and let their team charge in either unprepared or under level.
Some of the early encounters (including some that coudln't really be avoided that easily) were too much, no amount preparation would have helped there, and the level necessary to have a decent chance was impossible without going way off track. It got better after the third PF Adventure, but the issues were there.
Still, a GM should see that the adventure was broken there and see about fixing it.
FYI:
Loose ("luce") = v. to free; or adj. not bound.
Lose ("looze") = v. fail to retain possession of.
Example: "Why did I have to lose my binder? Now I have loose sheets of paper all over the place."
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Didn't mean to rant at you specifically Immora, so I hope things go well and your character can re-acquire her stylin' haversack back! Nothin' says veteran adventurer like a haversack that cost more in materials than magical enchantments.
I really loved that bag. *sniffle* Real Lamia leather, dyed all my favorite colors, and fashioned into a courier-style bag with labeled pockets for my wands, potions, treasure, and makeup. And solid brass fittings to keep it safe and weatherproof. It was a loving reminder of the time we dropped a one-ton statue on top of a crazy woman who was trying to kill us.
Thankfully the bag itself should be fixable; When it disjoined, it split open, but along the seams. A good tailor should be able to repair it if we can ever get out of the Runeforge and back to civilization.
Speaking as a DM,the disjunction trap was awesome.
My players did some good natured grumbling about it,but they had fun with it too.
More cruel and unusual traps please.
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Well, last night I had everything I'd supposed about my Beguiler being useless without her gear proven wrong, when I soloed a succubus with 11 character levels! It was dumbfounding, and I lost most of my hit points and a fair amount of Con, but in the end, my nearly-naked, battered-and-bruised Beguiler stood triumphant over the succubus queen that had escaped us in the Lust dungeon (while my teammates flailed about with silly simulacrum), and kicked her in the nose. I discovered the best way possible that Feeblemind followed up with a Touch of Idiocy is a demon-killer (if you can actually punch through their SR).
And just to make me feel like a heel, my teammates gave me the treasure we found just beyond that encounter: A headband of Intellect +6, a Cape of the Mountebank, and a frickin' Robe of the Archmagi (admittedly, it was an evil robe, and my tricksy, tricksy Beguiler was the only one who could convince it to work for us, but my point stands). So the GM was right: Financially, I've been more than compensated for all the gear that was wiped out... and as soon as I get back to town and repair my haversack, I'll stop whining :)
And thank the gods I didn't lose my Skirt of Unending Legs +1, because then I really would've been pissed.
Well, last night I had everything I'd supposed about my Beguiler being useless without her gear proven wrong, when I soloed a succubus with 11 character levels! It was dumbfounding, and I lost most of my hit points and a fair amount of Con, but in the end, my nearly-naked, battered-and-bruised Beguiler stood triumphant over the succubus queen that had escaped us in the Lust dungeon (while my teammates flailed about with silly simulacrum), and kicked her in the nose. I discovered the best way possible that Feeblemind followed up with a Touch of Idiocy is a demon-killer (if you can actually punch through their SR).
And just to make me feel like a heel, my teammates gave me the treasure we found just beyond that encounter: A headband of Intellect +6, a Cape of the Mountebank, and a frickin' Robe of the Archmagi (admittedly, it was an evil robe, and my tricksy, tricksy Beguiler was the only one who could convince it to work for us, but my point stands). So the GM was right: Financially, I've been more than compensated for all the gear that was wiped out... and as soon as I get back to town and repair my haversack, I'll stop whining :)
And thank the gods I didn't lose my Skirt of Unending Legs +1, because then I really would've been pissed.
I tried letting you know ... really, I did! ^_^ Way to go!!
You know, your character really should work on the outfit coordination angle ... add a "stylin'" circumstance bonus or sumtin'
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I tried letting you know ... really, I did! ^_^ Way to go!!
You know, your character really should work on the outfit coordination angle ... add a "stylin'" circumstance bonus or sumtin'
I don't know if I qualify for a 'styin' bonus anymore; How many different kinds of animal can you wear before it starts to look tacky? The boots are dragon hide, the skirt is lamia matriarch, and now the cloak is made from peacock feathers. I suppose I can always use my hat of disguise to make them coordinate, though.
I don't know if I qualify for a 'stylin' bonus anymore; How many different kinds of animal can you wear before it starts to look tacky? The boots are dragon hide, the skirt is lamia matriarch, and now the cloak is made from peacock feathers. I suppose I can always use my hat of disguise to make them coordinate, though.I tried letting you know ... really, I did! ^_^ Way to go!!
You know, your character really should work on the outfit coordination angle ... add a "stylin'" circumstance bonus or sumtin'
Yup! :)
Well, last night I had everything I'd supposed about my Beguiler being useless without her gear proven wrong, when I soloed a succubus with 11 character levels! It was dumbfounding, and I lost most of my hit points and a fair amount of Con, but in the end, my nearly-naked, battered-and-bruised Beguiler stood triumphant over the succubus queen that had escaped us in the Lust dungeon
Rawr...
Dragonhide gear is really b~+#&in...
Until you stand before another dragon that is vastly superior to you.
Happened to our druid withi his green dragon armour standing before a blue.
Dragon: "Nice armour. What animal does that come from?"
Druid: "Uhh... crocodile."
*Druid rolls 20 bluff*
*Dragon rolls 1 sense motive*
"Looks good."
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I re-read the encouter before posting. While the disjunction does affect every thing in a 40 ft radius, it also says the burst is in the room. It also says the disjuntion does not affect the walls of the runeforge. I took this to mean the walls are barriers to the disjuntion. So long as someone is is not in a hallway within 40 ft of the staff their stuff should be fine.
Your GM obviously interpreted it differently, (and I don't want to interfere with how your GM runs his table) but if you are still upset, see if a compromise can't be worked out. Maybe the walls reduced the power and the saves were lower; maybe the walls slowed it down so only those near to the wall were affected.
You are right.
Burst, Emanation, or Spread
Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
Depending on the layout of the room, and the positioning of the PCs, some may well have been shielded from the blast, even if within 40' of the origin point.
Many players interpret 'burst' and 'spread' as interchangeable terms, but there are subtle differences.
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Well, last night I had everything I'd supposed about my Beguiler being useless without her gear proven wrong, when I soloed a succubus with 11 character levels! It was dumbfounding, and I lost most of my hit points and a fair amount of Con, but in the end, my nearly-naked, battered-and-bruised Beguiler stood triumphant over the succubus queen that had escaped us in the Lust dungeon
I will need photographic evidence of this.
From several angles.
I thought I was a goner when we ended up tumbling into the Blasphemous Pit of Ever-Renewing Oils, but things worked out well in the end.I will need photographic evidence of this.
From several angles.
Stop it now Innora! You have no idea what manner of creature Snorter turns into if encouraged! Already, that mention of oil has no doubt sent him into paroxysms of juvenile, yet disturbingly seedy, delight.
Instead, please use the e-mail in my profile page to continue this description in detail, and I shall personally vet the events before passing them on to my DM. Thanks!
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Stop it now Innora! You have no idea what manner of creature Snorter turns into if encouraged! Already, that mention of oil has no doubt sent him into paroxysms of juvenile, yet disturbingly seedy, delight.
Instead, please use the e-mail in my profile page to continue this description in detail, and I shall personally vet the events before passing them on to my DM. Thanks!
Oh! That's good advice. He'd probably go crazy once I mentioned the Transmute Armor to Swimsuits spell my twin sister cast on us to protect me from the Heat Metal. effect.